*** Sadler's Mother Interviewed ***

[How Brown]

The Standard
London
Friday, February 20, 1891
***********************
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/Forums%20March%202010/June%202010/ms1-1.jpghttp://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/Forums%20March%202010/June%202010/ms2-1.jpghttp://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/Forums%20March%202010/June%202010/ms3-1.jpg

[Stephen Thomas]

My my, what a great find Howard.

[Monty]

A similar testimony by Mrs Sadler was given in the Daily Telegraph 20th Feb 1891.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Easter%202011/Daily20Telegraph202020Feb2091201.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Easter%202011/Daily20Telegraph202020Feb2091202.jpg

[How Brown]

Good find Monty...thanks for the attachments.

[SirRobertAnderson]

He was a member of a "Druids' Lodge" ?

What was that ?

[Monty]

I believe its a Frendly Society Sir Bob. Kinda like the Masons but not as secretive.

Akin to Oddfellows.

Though I could be wrong.

Monty
:)

[SirRobertAnderson]

I believe its a Frendly Society Sir Bob. Kinda like the Masons but not as secretive.

)

I was kinda hoping for the tree worshiping, henging type. Cuz from the drawings of him that's exactly the way I would picture him....

On a more serious note, great finds by you and what's his name.

[Nemo]

Does anyone think Sadler could actually have been the Ripper?

Would his connection with tea bring him to Bucks Row / Mitre Square?

He seems very violent when drunk

I've no idea why this man would want to join the Druid's lodge

Though likely to be a friendly society as Monty suggests, the Druids were renowned for human sacrifice and tearing out the heart, making predictions via entrails etc

The Celts were also be-headers and eaters of flesh

Very interesting articles

[Monty]

Does anyone think Sadler could actually have been the Ripper?

Would his connection with tea bring him to Bucks Row / Mitre Square?

He seems very violent when drunk

I've no idea why this man would want to join the Druid's lodge

Though likely to be a friendly society as Monty suggests, the Druids were renowned for human sacrifice and tearing out the heart, making predictions via entrails etc

The Celts were also be-headers and eaters of flesh

Very interesting articles


He lived in Bucks Row for a while Nemo, with some Brushmakers I believe.

Monty
:)

[Nemo]

Thanks Monty

He's a very interesting candidate

He's certainly a sailor type who frequented all the right locations in the East End

Is there anything in regard to his work aboard ship that exonerates him from any of the canonicals?

[How Brown]

Nemo:

Not answering for Monty, but Sadler's wife stated that they were both living on Commercial Road in August of 1888. She left him after a quarrel on the 15th of that month and did not hear from him until 7 months later when he asked her to meet him at the Fenchurch Street Station.
This may be found in the February 21st, 1891 report written by Chief Inspector Swanson.

[Nemo]

Thanks Howard

I haven't read that much about Sadler and I don't think there is any book with him as the main candidate for the Ripper

I've seen his list of dates when he was working on board ship but I'm not sure if some of the dates imply that he would not be ashore on the critical dates for the canonicals

He certainly fits the bill in my estimation and I'm sure he was thoroughly investigated as a Ripper candidate at the time

However, if they could not convict him of the Coles murder then they would have little or no chance of a conviction for a murder in 1888

His explanation of the events on the night of Coles' death seem truthful and detailed, perhaps a little too detailed...

When he lost his job he could well have frequented Bucks Row and/or Mitre Square looking for work and might have actually known George Morris

There are many "circs" concerning this man that makes him a viable candidate and I will look into him a bit further

That remark about a "skilful" or "artful" murderer - seemingly one who escaped justice is very suspicious

He seems to ask where the policeman was to allow such a crime to take place so close to a shop, possibly with witnesses nearby

Sounds a bit familiar to me...

[SirRobertAnderson]

He certainly fits the bill in my estimation and I'm sure he was thoroughly investigated as a Ripper candidate at the time

However, if they could not convict him of the Coles murder then they would have little or no chance of a conviction for a murder in 1888



It strikes me as possible that having investigating him for Coles, and finding that a dead end, that they dropped the whole thing.

My gut instinct is to say this was a guy suffering from blunt head trauma, which explains the erratic and just plain strange behavior, but he's definitely underrated as a suspect.

Odd that in a Ripper world where authors and theorists have tried to pin everyone except the Pope and Queen Victoria as Jack, that no one has ever tagged Sadler for the crimes.

[How Brown]

Bob, Nemo...

There are some lists in the Ultimate for dates Sadler was in the area and when he wasn't. I'll try to work on that tonight and then put up what I come up with.
Sadler, unless he left Commercial Road around the time his wife moved out in August of '88...was in the area then and he was in the area in 1891.
Thats two crucial qualifications satisfied.:sad:

[Monty]

Working off memory but I believe Sadler was on the SS Winestead for the Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes murder.

He was on there from 17th Aug 88 till 1st Oct 88.

Monty
:)

[How Brown]

Sadler Itineraries
*******************
Sadler's own list for Chief Inspector Swanson
Page 615 of The Ultimate
Discharge
February 11,1891
September 6,1890
July 15, 1890
May 27,1890
October 1,1889
October 2,1888-----see Monty's reference below in his post
August 17,1888-----see Monty's reference below in his post

Engaged
August 17,1888
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sarah Sadler (provided for Donald Swanson)
***************
Separated from Sadler on August 15th, 1888
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report by Inspector Henry Moore
Sadler employed at Tea Warehouse,Cutler Street,Houndsditch from December 1st
1887 to July 26th,1888. Not heard from again until October 15,1888 when he was again
employed ( where ?) until March 1889.
In 1888, he and his wife lived at 2 Johnson St,Commercial Road.
Sadler claimed to have worked at Brown & Eagles Wool Warehouse on Bucks Row
but the firm had no knowledge of that being the case.
When Sadler lived in Tetley Street in Poplar in 1877-1878, a woman named Rose Moriarty remembered
Sadler quarrelling with his wife and having a dagger shaped knife in his hand.
Inspector Moore could find no information which confirmed Sadler being emplyed at either
of the docks, but ( as Inspector Moore adds), this no doubt refers to his employment at
the Tea warehouse in Cutler Street which belongs to the London,India Docks Company.
Sergeant Kuhrt, however, located two ship firemen who were his mates on the SS Fez.
There are more interesting reports found in the Ultimate Sourcebook in Chapter 35.

[Nemo]

He said he hadn't carried a knife for years - maybe walking around with a sharp knife got him into a lot of trouble when he was drunk?

I'll check chapter 35 Neil

I suspect he had the "sandy moustache" in 1888

He seems quite well paid really - plenty of money to "treat" man or woman

He's known to associate with the unfortunates, known to be violent with a quick temper and a he's a knife carrier, familiar with the relevant area, has a number of places to retreat to such as his home, a ship or a doss-house, he is a sailor, he seems to think the police are stupid and has some derogatory opinions in regard to Scotland Yard, he seems to have a ghoulish interest in murder sites, was the last person known to have been with a murder victim who had her throat cut etc etc

The "circs" surrounding this guy would have been more than sufficient to "fit him up" if required at the time

He seems very lucky not to have been convicted - I believe he was exonerated from the Coles murder because his story checked out and a policeman verified that he could not have been the culprit due to some timing issue...

[SirRobertAnderson]

No question he is underrated, but the tendency to get into fights strikes me as un-Ripperlike. Jack was a coward IMHO, like most SKs, and I think only cared to engage when he had a clear advantage. Sadler seems to have liked to put his dukes up. Got his butt kicked to boot.



He's known to associate with the unfortunates, known to be violent with a quick temper and a he's a knife carrier, familiar with the relevant area, has a number of places to retreat to such as his home, a ship or a doss-house, he is a sailor, he seems to think the police are stupid and has some derogatory opinions in regard to Scotland Yard, he seems to have a ghoulish interest in murder sites, was the last person known to have been with a murder victim who had her throat cut etc etc

The "circs" surrounding this guy would have been more than sufficient to "fit him up" if required at the time

[Nemo]

Hi SRA

I do know a few men who will get drunk, start a fight which they could not finish, only to take it out on the woman when they get home

That's still a coward in my book - albeit a drunken one

Some drunks have a major self-destruction mode and often get beaten for their abuse only to come back for more on another night

If he's not JtR then maybe he's a JtR wannabe?

He's got more going for his candidacy than Klosowski using the same criteria that Abberline considered relevant ie being in the area, being violent, associating with prostitutes and the like

[Nemo]

This is a post from Mike Covell on another thread which may indicate that Sadler was in the Mediterranean during the whole of September 1888...

The Hull and East Yorkshire and Licolnshire Times, February 21st 1891

8045

[SirRobertAnderson]

This is a post from Mike Covell on another thread which may indicate that Sadler was in the Mediterranean during the whole of September 1888...


Now THAT would be a problem....

[Nemo]

Yes, that appears to be his alibi for the Ripper murders - he was aboard the ship Winestead from 17th Aug until Oct 1st

Or was he? - lol

[Monty]

This is a post from Mike Covell on another thread which may indicate that Sadler was in the Mediterranean during the whole of September 1888...

The Hull and East Yorkshire and Licolnshire Times, February 21st 1891

8045

Yesterday 10:03 PM
How Brown Sadler Itineraries
*******************
Sadler's own list for Chief Inspector Swanson
Page 615 of The Ultimate
Discharge
February 11,1891
September 6,1890
July 15, 1890
May 27,1890
October 1,1889
October 2,1888-----see Monty's reference below in his post
August 17,1888-----see Monty's reference below in his post

Engaged
August 17,1888
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sarah Sadler (provided for Donald Swanson)
***************
Separated from Sadler on August 15th, 1888
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report by Inspector Henry Moore
Sadler employed at Tea Warehouse,Cutler Street,Houndsditch from December 1st
1887 to July 26th,1888. Not heard from again until October 15,1888 when he was again
employed ( where ?) until March 1889.
In 1888, he and his wife lived at 2 Johnson St,Commercial Road.
Sadler claimed to have worked at Brown & Eagles Wool Warehouse on Bucks Row
but the firm had no knowledge of that being the case.
When Sadler lived in Tetley Street in Poplar in 1877-1878, a woman named Rose Moriarty remembered
Sadler quarrelling with his wife and having a dagger shaped knife in his hand.
Inspector Moore could find no information which confirmed Sadler being emplyed at either
of the docks, but ( as Inspector Moore adds), this no doubt refers to his employment at
the Tea warehouse in Cutler Street which belongs to the London,India Docks Company.
Sergeant Kuhrt, however, located two ship firemen who were his mates on the SS Fez.
There are more interesting reports found in the Ultimate Sourcebook in Chapter 35.

Yesterday 09:31 PM
Monty Working off memory but I believe Sadler was on the SS Winestead for the Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes murder.

He was on there from 17th Aug 88 till 1st Oct 88.

Monty
:)


Why do we bother How?

Monty
:)

[Nemo]

Working off memory but I believe Sadler was on the SS Winestead for the Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes murder.

He was on there from 17th Aug 88 till 1st Oct 88.

Monty
:)

Yes, apologies Neil, I appear to have missed that informative post of yours for some unknown reason

[Nemo]

Well - The report by Sgt Kuhrt 3/3/1891 in the Ultimate Source book only relates information regarding Sadler's movements in 1889 at the time of the McKenzie murder, him supposedly being dicharged from the ship "Bilbao" on 7/7/1889 and being engaged on the ship SS Loch Katrine on 20/7/1889

The information which is seemingly confirmed only consists of a lodging house keeper who remembered hearing that Sadler had been discharged from the Bilbao after which the ship went down with all hands, a fact which was confirmed

Apparently the Loch Katrine investigation consisted of asking current crew members if they remembered Sadler. However, noone on board was a member of the crew at the relevant time

There is also mention of two of Sadlers fellow crewmen from the SS Fez who stated that they knew Sadler since 24/12/1890 but "general" inquiries with these men elicited no further information

There doesn't appear to be any mention of the ship "Winestead" in the press reports at Casebook

The only reference I've seen is in a Casebook witness report that says Sadler "satisfied" the police that he had been aboard ship between August and October 1888

There is the possibility that his claim was not able to be verified in any meaningful way being 3 years prior

However, what could be verified does seem to confirm that on the whole he was telling the truth

[Nemo]

There is a discrepancy in Sadler's statement

On 14/2/1891 Sadler states, after mentioning to a policeman in Whitechapel Rd that he believed he was attacked and cut with a knife or bottle...

"He (the policeman) said "Oh have you a knife about you" and he there and then searched me. I told him I did not carry a knife. My shipmates, one Mat: Curley, and another named Bowen know that I have not carried a knife for years."

...whereas in the report by Sgt Kuhrt of 3/3/1891 it states that...

"I have seen Matthew Curley and Frederick Bowen; ships firemen, who have known Sadler since the 24th December last, and were his mates, whilst he was on board S.S. Fez, on her last passage, and made general inquiries, but have been unable to obtain any additional information"

Presumably the general inquiries would have included whether Sadler was known to carry a knife and it sounds like the men were unable to confirm that. Indeed, how could they know what Sadler did years before when they had only known him for less than three months? And why would the subject about carrying knives arisen in conversation between them?

[How Brown]

Nemo:

FYI...one or both of the authors of Scotland Yard Investigates is on record as stating that he/they ( DR or SPE or both ) believe Sadler probably killed Coles ( Page 260).

I'm curious about the sequence of events following the assault he faced on Thrawl Street. I could swear I read ( and naturally,can't locate right now) where Sadler blamed her for the Thrawl Street incident...but until I find it, I'll keep quiet.

[Nemo]

I've read that somewhere Howard

He's usually credited with just being angry at her for not helping him when he was on the ground, but I'm sure I read that he suspected her of setting him up for the fall

There was some money possibly hidden by Coles at the location where she was killed

She had already stated to Sadler that "other people" would want to be involved in the spending of his money if they stayed in the establishment they were in

Perhaps she had no direct involvement in the Thrawl St incident but someone, perhaps a pimp type, perhaps just her usual associates, followed them and seemingly kept a close eye on his spending before attacking him and taking his money for themselves

Sadler seemed to be well known to the women of the area and he probably stood out as a good target for robbery considering the money he carried - just like the other sailors we've heard about

If he'd been robbed before, which might be more than probable, it provides a motive for violence against the women

It was a woman who attacked him first after all

However, with her leaving the others behind and taking Sadler off for herself, and possibly hiding some cash later, there might be a motive for a pimp type or male associate to feel aggrieved against her for being selfish - resulting in the subsequent murder

I have a gut feeling Sadler did it though, and wouldn't he be clever in getting into a scrape so as to explain any blood upon himself? Cut with a knife or bottle no less!

[How Brown]

Good points Neems....
What I should have said was "I'm curious as to the true sequence of events after he got lumped up on Thrawl Street".
Please look at the following material and let me know what you think.

This is a map of the modern area which one of the events that occurred that night...or allegedly occurred that night...took place.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/Forums%20March%202010/June%202010/spital.jpg

I do not know whether Spital Street has been truncated since 1888.

[How Brown]

Neems:

Moving right along.

This is what Sadler told Donald Swanson about the events leading up to the last time he saw Coles.


Page 613 of The Ultimate..skipping just a little of the text:

" Then we went to the Marlborough Head in Brick Lane..
"From there ( the Marlborough in Brick Lane) I had an appointment to see a man, Nicols, in Spital Street ( now go look at where Spital Street is on the map) and I left her there ( on Brick Lane) to see Nicols, arranging to meet her again at a pub."

"We came down Thrawl Street"....( here. he describes the assault)..."and upon getting up I found my money and my watch gone. I was then penniless and I then had a row with Frances for I felt she might have helped me when I was down" ( Page 614 of The Ultimate).

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/Forums%20March%202010/June%202010/spital.jpg
********************************

First of all, if he had an appointment with a man named Nicols on Spital Street, what is he doing going in the opposite direction ?
Secondly, he told Swanson that he left her there on Brick Lane, but at the end of his Thrawl Street story, she is being lambasted by Sadler for not helping him out during the altercation on Thrawl Street.

See the discrepancies ?

[How Brown]

Neems:

I suppose that if the Marlborough Head on Brick Lane was below Thrawl Street, that might explain his movement in a northernly direction.
But it doesn't explain away him claiming he left her there at the taproom to go see this man Nicols.

So far....

He claims to have left her at the Marl.Head.
Gets lumped up on Thrawl Street with her watching the proceedings.
Then claims ( after having a row with her on Thrawl Street ) to have left for the docks.
There, he gets beat up again, goes back to a lodging house on Dorset Street, finds Coles half dazed from drink, he is turned out by someone in the lodging house,goes to the London Hospital, gets treatment, gets released, goes to the Victoria in Upper East Smithfield.

[Nemo]

One thing that stands out from Sadler's statement is that after he was assaulted in Thrawl St he said he left Coles at the corner and went to the docks

Later, he says that he was assaulted in Thrawl St at around 6pm, and went to the docks some hours later

To qualify the time it took he states that he had forgotten to mention that he and Coles had some food at Mrs Shuttleworths in Wentworth St

How could that occur if they had no money between them? And was her possible involvement forgotten that quickly?

He had previously left her in the company of some men whom he had "treated" shortly before he met up with her again and was attacked so it was a bit suspicious

I've got a copy of that Whitechapel map thingy so I'll try and plot out the relevant locations and times on it

Somebody seems to have done the same in 1891 as every time Sadler mentions a significant location in his statement, it is followed by a letter of the alphabet which almost certainly relates to some diagram that was drawn up

ie
A=the Bell on Middlesex St
B= (seems to be part of the statement missing here)
C= the bonnet shop
D= The Marlborough Head in Brick Lane

etc etc

If you map all the locations visited then you can see he was certainly a wanderer - just like I suspect JtR was

Interesting that he refers to the location of the policeman as "about the middle of Whitechapel Rd" which indicates that he might have had a layout of Whitechapel Rd in his head as the West/East and middle

That may have some significance if he was to mentally choose widely spaced murder locations as in the cases of the first 4 canonicals

It is amazing how many of the relevant locations he knows well and whatever argument there is for the Ripper to visit Goulston St on the way to the Victoria home seems to hold true for Sadler

Overall, his statement to the police seems over detailed to me as if he is confounding the police with the minutiae

There are very few statements from civilians to match it for the detail (I suppose he was said to have served with the Hong Kong police at one stage)

I really could see this guy being a calculating Ripper if we could only find a crew roster for the Winestead 1888...

[Nemo]

Our posts crossed Howard

I think it's a good idea to plot out his movements and go through his statement with a fine toothcomb - as the police probably did in 1891

He certainly gave the police plenty of places and people to verify what he said - though he was loathe to give certain names such as those of the men he "treated" - quite significant considering some or all of these men might be suspects in his assault...

Sadler is trying to give the impression that he is a totally innocent (and genial) man who was the victim that night and subsequent to his arrest

However, something is not right with him and I regard him as deeply suspicious

I could see him as a good suspect for Coles and McKenzie and if it was found that he was not aboard ship from August to October then he would become a prime suspect in the WM I think

I would mention him buying a bonnet but Colin would probably stamp on my head - lol

[Nemo]

PS
Sadler's wife stated that he was decidedly anti-religion so I would imagine he would have strong feelings against fraternisation with Jews - something I feel he and the Ripper had in common

[How Brown]

How could that occur if they had no money between them? And was her possible involvement forgotten that quickly?--Nemo

Bingo,daddy. After assuming she was part and parcel of the lump up on Thrawl Street or at least being angry at her for not helping him in the scrape and having an argument with her...who is the first person he mentions seeing after getting lumped up again at the Docks ? Convienent that he goes back to the lodging house and finds her there.

Ain't (illicit) love grand ? Forgiving sort wasn't he ?

Whatever happened to the appointment he evidently failed to keep with this man Nicols ? Wonder if that was an offer for some sort of work for Sadler ?

[Monty]

Hi all,

The Marlborough Head was, infact, on Pelham Street just off Brick Lane. Ran by Charles Treadway and his wife Sarah.

Pelham Street was not far from Spital Street and, if I remember correctly, Sadler was looking for Nichols because he owed Sadler monies.

Monty
:)

PS Forgot to add, Pelham street is now Woodseer Street

[Nemo]

The published Whitechapel map is a bit basic so it might be an idea to plot the locations on the hi-res map we have on the site somewhere

There are a number of locations such as the pubs that he can't even remember

Strange that he can't remember the ship he "may" have been on in July/August 1889 after first meeting Coles

[How Brown]

Monty:

My apologies for the slow response. Thanks for the additional information.

Let me ask you two, Nemo and Monty, or anyone else...do you buy the story that he was beaten up twice in one night ? I got all verklempt over here thinking how terrible his night must have been...first getting hornswooped in Thrawl Street and then getting some quality toe time from some guys down at the Docks...and then realizing how rare it is for someone to get jacked up twice in one night.

This is similar, in a way, to the belief that the man who was seen with Stride in Dutfield's Yard not being the person who killed her....but someone else, moments later, was responsible.

[Monty]

How,

The dock incident certainly did happen, its been verified.

As for Thrawl Street, it wasnt uncommon for these rumbles to occur. I suspect this is why Coles was very reluctant for Saddler to flash his money around out of fear of being observed and later being robbed.

That or Sadlers theory that Coles was invovled in his being robbed is supported by her faux concern.

Ive certainly heard of one person being assualted a few times in one night. Some guys just dont know when to shut up, as Sadler should have done in Nightingale Lane.

Cheers
Monty
:)

[Nemo]

It's one thing to be beaten, quite another to be cut with a knife or bottle

I wouldn't have thought that the dock workers would have cut him

In Thrawl St he was knocked to the ground and by a woman and kicked by a number of men

It would be quite a malicious act to reach down and cut him with a knife or bottle

[SirRobertAnderson]

It's one thing to be beaten, quite another to be cut with a knife or bottle

I wouldn't have thought that the dock workers would have cut him





The dock incident certainly did happen, its been verified.



One has to believe that the thought occurred to the police that Sadler invented the dock incident as a convenient alibi for his cuts, and dug into his story.

[Nemo]

There is quite a bit more detail from Sadler's own mouth in this press report at Casebook...

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/east_london_observer/elo910328.html

In which he states the woman in Thrawl St (or was it Flower and Dean St???) hit him on the head with a blunt knife or bottle

He says Coles warned him he would be robbed if he went down that street but he seems fearless of anyone in the East End or anywhere else for that matter

He also states that he thinks Coles was on her way to see him on his ship, the Fez, when she was murdered

The police were still considering him as the Ripper at least a month after he was arrested so maybe the discharge papers he had didn't prove anything about the Winestead in 1888

I can only find reference to the fact that he satisfied the police that he was on the Winestead, I don't know how he managed that

[SirRobertAnderson]

but he seems fearless of anyone in the East End or anywhere else for that matter

My suspicion is that Sadler had mental issues that explain his behavior more so than anything sinister.

[Nemo]

I was recently reading that the major crime necessary to bring under control in late 19th Century was the abduction and trafficking of women and children for the purpose of prostitution

If Sadler had been a policeman in Hong Kong, he would almost certainly had experience of the campaign to combat the prostitution

The first organisation to combat the crime and aid the women and children was set up in 1878

[How Brown]

Monty:

No question the dock story occurred.

What just whizzed through my head was whether a police inquiry would have been made on Thrawl Street if a knife had been used on Sadler.

Would it not be incumbent on the police to launch an inquiry into this episode even if Sadler wasn't daddy's little dumpling at the time ( He was after all a suspect for Coles murder) ?


Neems:

I know one thing, that examining what we have on Sadler...not that this is some sort of "profile", mind you...it doesn't seem to fit that IF he blamed Coles for this lump up ( He supposedly lost all his moolah and a watch ) on Thrawl Street he would try to find a place to crash with her after the episode at the docks.
Its also a little strange that instead of going to the Hospital after the docks incident, he claims he found her on Dorset Street....and then went to the LH afterwards as if a last resort.

[Nemo]

I think he was also reported as visiting a coffee shop after seeing the policeman and before he went to the hospital

[How Brown]

Nemo:

Just a feeling I have at present, but I lean towards the conclusion one of the authors of Scotland Yard Investigates provided in that Sadler killed Coles.
I could imagine that he is with her on the murder spot, is very angry,pulls a knife,she pushes his hand back, it cuts his head, he then cuts her throat.

Simplistic for sure...but Sadler provides the or a motive...and a pretty good one at that... for her murder in that he was angry at her for her actual complicity in the Thrawl Street shindig or for his assumption of the same.

[Nemo]

...and if the murder location is on the route back to the Fez, that was when he may have come across her if she had left him at the time of the robbery

No matter how close he felt to Coles, I wouldn't think she would stay with him for long if he was penniless

Maybe the money hidden at the murder location was her "share" of the robbery money which Sadler knew or suspected she had, or possibly money Sadler had given her earlier

There may have been a half-truth in that he requested her to give him back some money for a bed so that he didn't have to return to the ship - becoming angry when she didn't

[Nemo]

PS
I was wondering earlier if the Thrawl St attack was total fabrication and he was hit on the head by Coles with the whiskey bottle he mentioned she had

[How Brown]

Could have gone down just like that Neems.
Its just curious since he mentioned it that he felt she was part of the first affair and then went back to see her to shack with her.

I know I'd be pretty angry if all my money was taken.

And again..what about this original plan about seeing Mr. Nichol ?

I wonder if there even was a Mr. Nichol on Spital Street....

[Nemo]

In Scotland Yard Investigates it says Sadler was engaged on 17th Aug 1888 and engaged again on Oct 2nd 1888, rather than being engaged on 17th Aug and discharged on Oct 2nd

There is also mention of a "lengthy report" in the Daily telegraph of 18th Feb 1891 which compared the dates of his engagement with the dates of the murders, which I would like to see but the press report does not appear on Casebook

A minor question - Why did Sadler say "I expected this" when arrested?

Would he have known that a murder occurred at that moment in time

Even if the policeman said "I'm arresting you for the murder of Frances Coles", it still seems strange for him to say that

[How Brown]

There is also mention of a "lengthy report" in the Daily telegraph of 18th Feb 1891 which compared the dates of his engagement with the dates of the murders, which I would like to see but the press report does not appear on Casebook---Nemo

Nemo....try page 616 in The Ultimate Sourcebook.



Buddy, nothing is minor as far as Sadler is concerned that night. I wondered that myself about that remark, but you got there first.
Expect what ? That he would be arrested again for suspicion ( There's no way we could determine whether he had been detained in a previous murder)....?
Expect what ? Because he had been seen in her company and nothing more ?

[Nemo]

There is a report in the Ultimate Howard but it hasn't got the list that compares the dates that is mentioned

It does state that it was proven that he was ashore for the McKenzie murder, and on board ship shortly thereafter

The dates mentioned in his statement mainly give the discharge dates ie

"next discharge 27.5.90
Next discharge 1.10.89
Next 2.10.88
Engaged 17.8.88
Next 5.5.87
Engd. nx 24.3.87

As I said, SYI states that he was engaged on 17/8/88 and engaged again on 2/10/88

If that is the case then he might have been available on the dates for the relevant murders

Also, were the police still looking for a murderer of "Fairy Fay" in 1887 at this time?

[Nemo]

His words at his arrest seem stranger the more I think about it

He mentions not being disguised which may relate to his wife also supposedly mentioning about him disguising himself, or at least hunching over and turning his face and the like

She didn't recognise him until he approached and spoke to her

He says to the police, "I have not disguised myself in any way, and if you could not find me the detectives in London are no damned good"

He is also concerned that revealing that he consorted with a prostitute would end his relationship with his wife which is untrue as she seems quite aware that he did so from her statement and they were already living apart

What he didn't show was any concern for Frances and he showed no surprise that she was dead, even though the last time he saw her (according to him) was in the lodging house

I'm sure any normal person who had spent the night drinking with someone who they were told was later found with their throat cut would show some emotion, shock, sadness or something

[Nemo]

Apologies - He went to a coffee house after the hospital, having previously stated that he went directly to the Victoria home and then to the shipping office to collect his money

[Nemo]

I'm only reading various press reports but there does seem to be a general consensus around the 18th Feb 1891 that the police had found evidence that proves that Sadler was on board ship at least from 17th Aug 1888 until Oct 2nd 1888

One report states that Sadler was onboard during 5 of the murders, though I suppose that's not necessarily all in 1888

[How Brown]

"Also, were the police still looking for a murderer of "Fairy Fay" in 1887 at this time? --Nemo

No Nemo...there wasn't a murder victim in December of 1887. Margaret Hames,if you remember, didn't die as a result of her being assaulted.
The police,however, undoubtedly did try to apprehend her assailant afterwards.

[Nemo]

Thanks Howard

I know it's the only attack on record at that time that would fit (a bit), and there is the connection with Emma, but I'm not completely convinced she was the origin of the Fairy Fay murder story yet...

[Cris Malone]

Great thread guys. Just a question... One of the main theories for Sadler not being the murderer of Coles is the asumption that he was too drunk to have killed her. I know - from experience - that some people's tolerance of alcohol can be quite high and they seem to have adjusted to the continual intake of the substance with a remarkable ability to still function.
What do ya'll think about Sadler's ability that night?

[Nemo]

I think the report of him sitting drunk and a bit battered is the source of the idea that he might have been too drunk to kill - the actual report was that he would be too drunk to slice the throat in such a manner

I don't think that, and he could easily have made his way to Swallow Gardens and come across Coles in anger and attacked her

In my experience, a drunken person can have his head hung down and be incoherent one minute then up and fighting on their feet the next

He wasn't too drunk to remember most of what was going on that night

For some examples, you only have to watch some of the programmes that show modern police tackling drunken men and women on Friday and Saturday nights

When picked up they are often sitting or even prone looking the worse for wear, but soon find it within themselves to become belligerent and violent

[How Brown]

Cris:

From visual experience when I was a little kid, when my own Dad had too much whisky to drink ( Friday night to Sunday afternoon bender), he got more belligerent and tougher ( I saw Mom slam a door over his foot once,skinning the top layer of skin off the foot).
For someone so tanked up on one night ( Sadler) he sure remembers a lot of minutiae the next day, doesn't he ?

[Nemo]

The only thing I can find in regard to the Winestead is that it was sold to Italy in 1895 and renamed and the following snippet from February 1874...

HENRY DRAINER, labourer, fell
into the hold of the s.s. Winestead and was killed

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/papers_hull1874.txt

There's also mention there of councillor Stephenson (Richard) "illegally" taking possession of that Chapel building...

[How Brown]

Nemo:

I believe that that Richard Stephenson is in fact D'Onston's older brother.
Small world.

[Nemo]

That's right Howard - I've read some of Mike's references in regard to this incident

In regard to Sadler, it also seems well out of order for him to be threatening to cut his wife's throat in May 1892 considering his previous

There is a possibility that Sadler observed Coles with a client at Swallow Gardens (man in cheesecutter hat?) and demanded some money from her for a bed when she was alone again, she giving him the impression she had no money, having hidden it behind the pipe