More on Collins and Cremers

[admin tim]

http://www.theohistory.org/description-of-issues/desc_X.htm

[How Brown]

Sizing up the first meeting between Vittoria Cremers and Stephenson, Cremers recollected that Stephenson,although imbued with a " military bearing and suggestion of strength and power" looked very anemic.

In fact, Collins tells Cremers that she is caring for him,this being in March 1890. Cremers states thats she returned to England in 1890 in several sources and did in fact do just that. This is an error regarding Cremers,Collins and Stephenson which one source states that this liason occurred in the spring of 1889.....

Stephenson was released from London Hospital after his second stay for "chloralism" on July 25th,1889.

Cremers returned, and in her own words,in March of 1890.

Therefore,during the period of roughly 7 months,Collins and Stephenson may have lived with each other,but were NOT when Cremers met the two in Southsea.....It is an error from one source that they were definitely cohabitating under the same roof,which of course,is what lovebirds do.

This relationship may have been purely financial since Collins was eager to start the Pompadour Cosmetique Co. up in London. Whether it was or not is not the issue....what is the issue is that Collins and Stephenson's basis for their relationship in NOT definitely known.



Collins did NOT reply to or respond to the December 1st,1888 "One Who Thinks He Knows" letter to the PMG. She states in her own words that she was responding to the early 1889 article with references to H.Rider Haggards' "She". An error in a current "reference" source.

Stephenson was NOT in the Hospital at the time he wrote this piece. He eventually recieved a letter from Collins when he was in the London Hospital during this second stay,which began on May 13th,1889. Subsequently,he left the Hospital. This is also an error regarding Cremers,Collins and Stephenson from one source....

According to Collins,Stephenson was still very ill ( Collins' own words). It is quite likely that Stephenson was really sick for a period of time,at least in this instance,since he left a Hospital 7 months BEFORE Cremers heard this opinion from Collins in March of 1890 and apparently was still ill.

More to come....

[Peter Birchwood]

June 11th 1895 an application was made to remove the name of the above company from the register of Joint Stock Companies. This was duly done on the 24th September 1995.

[How Brown]

June 11th 1895 an application was made to remove the name of the above company from the register of Joint Stock Companies. This was duly done on the 24th September 1995.

Dear Mr.B :

Didn't the Pompadour C.C. cease to operate by 1892 ?:confused:

Is the underlined year correct? It states 1995.

Although some may not see the significance of the dates in question on this thread and in my observation as to the 1863/1860 realignment of the Lytton liason date...to Stephensonian research they are the most crucial aspect of his suspect-worthiness.

Of all the major or most highly touted suspects,only Stephenson has had discrepancies of such enormity to his "cause".

[Robert Linford]

Hi How

Peter's right, it's in the Gazette (1995 obviously a typo).

I don't know whether this was just a formal "death certificate" sort of thing, the company having expired a few years before, or whether it had been trading up till 1895.

Robert

[Spiro]

Good question Robert, inquiring minds want to know, and thanks Peter for those interesting details. :thumbsupbud:

[Peter Birchwood]

Sorry about the error; it was 1892. What I need is a light on the keyboard but it's impossible to get an electrician to come round even to rewire the whole house.

I was expecting more interesting information such as a bankruptcy report for RdS but nothing so far.

[Robert Linford]

Hi Peter

Do you mean, the company was wound up in 1892?

But there were two London Gazette 1895 items as well, yes?

Robert

[Peter Birchwood]

Hi Robert:
There is a file at the National Archives on the company which refers to it as "dissolved" and is dated 1891 so the later 1895 mention may refer to a formal housekeeping, clearing away the traces of the thing. The company number was 34995. There's also a separate reference to the 1911 winding-up of a company named "Pompadour Ltd." but this may well be a separate enterprise. And I do again beg your pardon for another typo: both references are to 1895

[Robert Linford]

Hi Peter

Don't worry about the typo - I'm now sitting here with my room light on, so that I can see the keyboard. Sometimes I use a bedside lamp placed on the desk. It's much better in summer.

BTW the London Gazette people have just emailed me to say that the online Gazette is offline till Oct 16th owing to unforeseen technical issues - I'd pointed out to them that their site kept conking out. Let's hope they can get it sorted.

Robert

[Night Stalker]

Hey all :

According to Melvin Harris, the Pompador Company, its name and assets were taken over by a west end consortium in 1891.

Hope that helps, NS -

[How Brown]

Thanks N.S.:thumbsupbud:

In addition, Collins mailed a letter to Stephenson and told him that the furniture in his flat would be taken away....which doesn't necessarily mean he owned it.

Peter:

I don't think Stephenson declared bankruptcy. I don't think he owed anyone other than the two women at this time.

Wouldn't one need to have money in Britain to hire a lawyer in order to declare bankruptcy? Thats the way it is in the States.

Immediately after the dissolution of the trio's friendship/business...he called upon Cremers and made an attempt to bum money from her.

She utilized one or two men to stand inside her dwelling in wait in case Sudden Death got out of hand with her. He didn't as Cremers gave him some cash to tide him over.

[Robert Linford]

Well, so far from being taken offline, the Gazette archive seems to be working OK again - for now.

The second Pompadour company - Pompadour Ltd - seems to have ended very messily. It may not have been finally laid to rest until 1921 - unless that was a THIRD Pompadour company? I suppose that's possible, because ANOTHER Pompadour Ltd is mentioned in 1959.

Robert

[Peter Birchwood]

It would presumably be a popular business name for anything connected with ladies fashions or cosmetics.

[Robert Linford]

Yes. I liked the way Donston brought in the "Cosmetiques" bit - gives it an extra je ne sais quoi.

[How Brown]

Good stuff Robert and Mr.B...

In addition to the brief list of what Cremers does not mention about Stephenson....

* That he knew Blavatsky. This is often mentioned in passing throughout Ripperological circles.

* That he was either involved with a contemporay coterie ( see Robert...I can go French too...:rolleyes: ) of occultists or in practice on a solo basis.

* That Stephenson knew any mutually known occultists Cremers or Collins may have known. In a world where the "six degrees" of separation can link Dave O'Flaherty to Jerry Lee Lewis, its almost inconcievable that Cremers does not mention Stephenson's ties with anyone in that community.

I can link myself ( as an example) to Richard WE in the following way: I know Adam Wood...Adam knows Paul Begg...Mr.Begg knows SPE...SPE knows R WE.). Not that Richard WE is happy about that though:rolleyes:

Its all the old unverifiable claims that Stephenson laid on Cremers that are mentioned.

[Robert Linford]

How, you can get two RWE by a shorter route : you know SPE and he knows RWE. :)

I'm only going from memory here, but there seems to be no mention of any knowledge on the part of RDS of the magical traditions of his own country, which seems odd. No corn dollies, buckets of urine, etc etc.

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

No he doesn't mention any,sir. Your memory is fine.

One of the "Gang" just mentioned something the other day to me about how some of what Stephenson mentions in regard to a definition of Tautriadelta sounds almost verbatim to what Levi wrote in his 1888 book. I'll have to hold my nose and re-read the Levi material and check that out myself.

In addition,the locations of the first four murders generally considered Ripper murders are not at north,east,south and west on a compass. I believe Dave Knott once mentioned it might be in accordance with the Greenwich compass ( does this make sense? ), but as far as it being N-E-S-W,I think Dan Norder or Bob Hinton pointed that out and that they're not on those points of the compass when I asked him once about the maps one sees of the "Whitechapel" area. I wondered if these maps were laid out in accordance to a cartographically correct view of the area.

[Robert Linford]

How, here's a link.
http://casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/15670.html

[How Brown]

Ha ha ha !!!!
:clap: :clap: :clap:
I recognize that "Percival Westerbrook" anywhere !! I know who that is by the style of his posting.....the same guy who posted under the name Maurice Deschamps back when I was setting up Stephenson threads for Stephen. He's a real piece of work.

Thanks Robert for supplying a laugh and a link. It was Bob Hinton who showed "Percival" where he was wrong.....:rolleyes:

[How Brown]

Robert:

I have other goodies to put up,but have to hit the bricks soon and pick my daughter up.

Its consistent with what we're reading ( at least to me ) that Stephenson has NO inclination towards black magic at the time he and Cremers had a few moments alone. I mean,he's discussed just about everything else but that.

He tells her his exploits up until 25-30 years before the WM.

What do you think Robert?

[Robert Linford]

How, I get the feeling that it was Stephenson volunteering info all the time, rather than info being wormed out of him. Like he wanted to be the centre of interest.

Question : where would he get and keep a goat?

[How Brown]

Exactly Robert...

Yet during all this time,he doesn't drop one single name or even give the remotest clue to his alliance with any group or even some sort of participation.

Sort of like a person who likes to go swimming but hates to get wet.;)

[Peter Birchwood]

I was just having a look at Melvin's "True Face..." particularly at the quotes from the O'Donnell ms. Do we have any independent evidence showing that the memoirs are those of Vittoria Cremers, physically written or dictated by her?

I can believe that O'Donnell spoke to her before her death on 12th November 1937 at "Agharti" Somerset Way, Iver, Bucks (formerly of Rocks Cottage, Llanvair, Mon.) but the thing reads much more like a production by a journalist put into her own words to make it more saleable. If this is true, then what are supposed to be Vittoria Cremers Own words are nothing of the sort and statements in them about RDS are, at best, third-hand.

[How Brown]

Dear Peter:

Good points sir. Its essentially what Mr.O'Donnell dictated from Cremers. This is true. Its not necessarily the "whole" story of Stephenson's commentary with the woman,nor is it the whole of his dealing with Collins. There are many things that were not potentially recalled by Cremers,including some that may have been "helpful" towards considering Stephenson's candidacy.

But what seems to me to be of prime importance is the....here I go again,sorry....the discrepancy between the date in the Borderland article and the revised date found in Mr.Harris's book as well as another source.

The date of 1863,from Stephenson and this liason,is found outside the Cremers memoirs. So the O'Donnell is not necessarily "responsible" for this issue. Stephenson,as I have been hammering away at for a while,is.

Again,the date Stephenson provides is not some random date. Its fixed.

If I said to you,Mr. B....."Dear Mr.B...I will be over this summer to see you and Mrs.B and eat you out of house and home..."
...I would not be specific enough for you to determine,obviously,when to pack up the clan and head out of Wales. It could be on June 21st...July 4th.....August 8th....or August 31st....or any day in summer.

However,if I said the above this way..."Dear Mr. B....I will be over this summer to see you and Mrs.B the weekend before our American "Labor Day" holiday...."

Obviously,I would be giving you a fixed date,where I did not in the first phrase. This is exactly what Stephenson himself did when he mentions that book by Lytton. He fixes a date that has been changed.


Its quite possible that Mr.Harris DID have some source that would revise the lone event or date that I can think of that was changed in all of these dates,events,and speculations. Other than this date...the 1860 date....Mr.Harris appears to have been content with all the claims made by Stephenson as valid or at least,not necessarily over the top.

Its obviously not a case of him believing in Karl Hoffman transporting his body to another place or those Cameroonian stories....but the statements themselves as having being from RDS.

[Peter Birchwood]

[QUOTE=How Brown]Dear Peter:

Its essentially what Mr.O'Donnell dictated from Cremers. This is true.

Dear Howard:
My question is: how do we know that it is true? The piece reads as fiction with an admixture of fact. By the time that O'Donnell wrote this, Mabel was dead and Vittoria an elderly lady. The "memoir" was never published which seems odd. Do we have any published work indisputably by the pen of Vittoria Cremers? If we do, then it might be worth comparing that, the "memoir" and other work by O'Donnell.

[Peter Birchwood]

I notice that during her two post 1895 trips from England to the US, Vittoria Cassini Cremers gave as her friend/relative firstly her husband Louis at the Hotel Cecil and on her later trip, Trevor Haddon the artist, whose son Geoffrey Maurice Maxwell Haddon was one of her executors in 1937.

[Robert Linford]

Hi Peter

I have a vague memory that one of these Haddons was found murdered?

Robert

[Robert Linford]

Nope. I must have been thinking of someone else.

[How Brown]

Dear Mr.B:

I agree 100 percent,as have several other Ripperologists,that Mrs.Cremers' recollections would constitute "hearsay evidence" in a court of law. I have no knowledge at this time as to if Mrs.Cremers ever wrote any other works which are available.

The memoirs are notable for their clarity for what Mrs.Cremers does NOT mention. This is to me the crux of the "problem" with Stephenson,as peripheral writing by Stephenson and others in many ways does support most of what Cremers states ( the Pompadour company...the break up with Collins....Cremers' mentioning of his illness 7 months after being released from the London Hospital or feigning illness until he caught a prize fish in the likes of Collins to support him....his description on several levels,offered at the outset of the Cremers piece,which is pretty similar to that which we can ascertain from someone like him,according to his personality....as well as the fact she mentions Stephenson declares he was married. Its impossible that Mr.O'Donnell would have known this fact from Stephenson's writings,prior to his dialogue with Mrs.Cremers. Mr.O'Donnell was aware,I suppose,of the contemporary writings by Stephenson,but none....mention him being married. I do my homework,Mr.B.;)

Based on this latter fact,in particular,I'd think it would have been an error on Mr.O'Donnell's part to take a guess as to Stephenson's marriage status....

....... and in fact,Mr.O'Donnell barely skims the surface on any of Stephensons' kinfolk. Only Cremers mentions the unnamed wife. To our benefit,Cremers did ask Stephenson if he was married.



It remains to be seen,as the sole licensing of the O'Donnell Manuscript is now firmly in our hands,what all of us can glean from this work.

[How Brown]

In addition,Hayter Preston was the man who referred Mr.O'Donnell to Cremers.

More to come...