Another new Fleming record which I need help deciphering!

[Chris Scott]

The Religious Creed record relating to Flemming at the period of the murders led me to an entry relating to him in the Bethnal Green Register of Settlement and Relief Papers from 1889. This gives his age as 30, which is correct and agrees with the Religious Creed record in which he is noted as born in 1859.
However, I am finding parts of this entry relating to him very difficult to read. The start of the entry reads: "Fleming, Joseph. 30. Single labourer."
I would be VERY grateful for any readings of the text below as it relates to an important figure in the story at a crucial time:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Easter%202011/flemsettlementdetailssmall.jpg

[Chris Scott]

This is what I have made of it so far but some of these readings are far from certain:

Fleming Joseph. 30. Single labourer.
Line 2 - Illegible
No home (crossed out) been in County (?) all summer on and off in B.G. (?) (i.e. Bethnal Green)
States appd (applied?) to Mr (Illegible) Boot maker, Royston Street (illegible) during apprenticeship in Royston Street. Born in B.G. (Bethnal Green)

[How Brown]

Chris:

Here's a little...hopefully someone can correct and improve on it.

Fleming Joseph 30, Single Laborer s__ lives in house; of L house ---- been in County all summer in & off or __ states app in BG to Mr. ___, boot maker Royster ( ? ) Street & reside during( ? ) apprenticeship in Royster Street, Born in BG


Chris...the word after "Single Labr" begins with an "s" if I'm not mistaken.

[Chris Scott]

many thanks How
That "reside(d)" makes sense ...
Royston Street runs off Bonner Street which joins Old Ford Road and Roman Road
It is just south of Waterloo Gardens (formerly Waterloo Road) site of the Bethnal Green Workhouse.
This business of Fleming serving an apprenticeship to aboot maker is certainly new to me.
Thanks again and let's hope we can decipher the whole thing!
Chris

[Chris Scott]

This business of the apprenticeship to a boot maker rang a dim bell. In the Cast of Thousands I wrote:

As for Joseph himself, it looks very much as though he had changed his trade by 1891. At that time he would have been 32 and this, coupled with the fact that he was born in Bethnal Green, led to the only viable identification for him in the 1891 data. This listed him as living in a lodging house at 9 Victoria Park Square, Bethnal Green and gave his details as follows:
Joseph Flemming aged 32 born Bethnal Green - Boot finisher.

The whole area of interest - Waterloo Road and Royston Street - is right on the edge of Victoria Park.
Of course it has to be noted that this census entry listed him as married...

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Easter%202011/flem1891small.jpg

[Chris Scott]

I have looked at this over and over and it is still the second line of which I can make no sense - any ideas?
Here's what I make of it to date:

Fleming Joseph. 30. Single Labourer.
<Second line illegible>
No home (crossed through). Been in country all summer -
on and off in Bethnal Green. States applied to Mr. Hiram(?), Boot Maker, Royston Street and resided during apprenticeship in Royston Street.
Born in Bethnal Green.

[Chris G.]

I have looked at this over and over and it is still the second line of which I can make no sense - any ideas?
Here's what I make of it to date:

Fleming Joseph. 30. Single Labourer.
<Second line illegible>
No home (crossed through). Been in country all summer -
on and off in Bethnal Green. States applied to Mr. Hiram(?), Boot Maker, Royston Street and resided during apprenticeship in Royston Street.
Born in Bethnal Green.

Hi Chris

I think I have made some progress on the second line and elsewhere. Atrocious writing but not made any easier by the numerous abbreviations and in the second line by the downstrokes of the lettering in line 1 complicating the read of line 2.

I think line 2 begins "sevl [several] times in" and ends with the word "twice"

Rather than "States applied to Mr. Hiram(?), Boot Maker," I think the "appd. in BG" is short for "apprenticed in Bethnal Green" -- it might even be "States apprenticed in Bethnal Green to Mr. Stern Boot Maker" conceivably. Sometimes, as you know, with these types of problems a good guess solves the problem!

I hope this helps.

Chris

[Chris Scott]

many thanks Chris - very helpful and I certainly agree on "apprenticed" rather than "applied"
Mr Stern I hadn't thought of at all and will give that a try in the census
Thanks again
Chris

[Chris Scott]

Bootmakers in Royston Street in 1891 census
(Bethnal Green/Bethnal Green East/District 4a page 33 onwards)
George Cushway No 12
John Hopwood No 18
George Rauge (boot laster) No 24
William Sullivan No 30
George Dismon No 76

(Bethnal Green/Bethnal Green East/District 12a page 5 onwards)
Charles Townshend No 96
John Dimm No 108a
F Englefield No 49
Charles Brock No 37
Arthur Goddarn No 37
Alexander Corper No 15

[Rob House]

Here is my best guess so far:

"Fleming Joseph 30, Single Laborer sev'l live in house; (adj?) L house ---- No home (crossed out) been in County all summer on & off in B.G. states app'd (apprenticed) in BG to Mr. Herm (Hiram? Stern?), boot maker Royster (?) Street & resided during apprenticeship in Royster Street, Born in BG."

[Chris Scott]

Thanks Rob - all is helpful at the moment:-)

[m_w_r]

Hi,

This is what I'm seeing! I'm by no means clear on the name of the bootmaker to whom he claimed to have been apprenticed. I've "translated" it a bit so that the sense comes through:

Fleming, Joseph. 30. Single labourer, several times in [work]house; admitted from lodging house. No home. Been in country all summer; on & off in B[ethnal] G[reen]. States apprenticed in B[ethnal] G[reen] to Mr Heir [?], boot maker, Royston Street, and resided during apprenticeship in Royston Street. Born in B[ethnal] G[reen].

Regards,

Mark

[Chris Scott]

many thanks mark
Your reading of the second line makes a lot of sense
regards
Chris

[Chris Scott]

This is as near as I can get from the ideas posted - I still cannot make a final judgement on the name of the Bootmaker.

Fleming Joseph. 30.Single labourer.
Several times in (Work)house: admitted from Lodging House.
No Home (crossed through)
Been in country all summer: on and off in Bethnal Green.
States apprenticed in Bethnal Green to Mr. _____ Bootmaker, Royston, Street, and resided during apprenticeship in Royston Street.
Born in Bethnal Green.

[Livia Trivia]

I think what looks like a capital "L" is actually a plus sign.

As between "on" and "off" and just before "resides during
apprenticeship".


On the 1891 census, I've found a John R Harn, aged 52,
single, a bootmaker, born in London, living at 13 Smith Place,
Bethnal Green, with his sister (?) also single, age 46, no
occupation, also born in London.

District 7 Bethnal Green North

Civil Parish St Matthew Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical Parish of St Thomas

Page 43

I'll send the page along to How for posting, if there's
any interest.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Livia
Please send the page you mentioned and thanks for your post
Chris

[How Brown]

Dear Liv:

I'll be more than happy if you send the scans to me...or to Chris if your prefer.
Thanks !

[Livia Trivia]

I've sent the Harn page along to How for posting
(because he's handily included his email address
in his sig).

If you're interested in a copy for your own records
Chris, please pm me your email address and I'll send
it along. (I don't know if you can download jpgs
directly from the board).

[How Brown]

Liv,Chris...

Here is the relevant section of the scan Livia just sent me :

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/2011%20Forums/jh.jpg

Sorry that the scan doesn't appear on the post. Photobucket is like that on occasion.

[Debra Arif]

Hi,

This is what I'm seeing! I'm by no means clear on the name of the bootmaker to whom he claimed to have been apprenticed. I've "translated" it a bit so that the sense comes through:

Fleming, Joseph. 30. Single labourer, several times in [work]house; admitted from lodging house. No home. Been in country all summer; on & off in B[ethnal] G[reen]. States apprenticed in B[ethnal] G[reen] to Mr Heir [?], boot maker, Royston Street, and resided during apprenticeship in Royston Street. Born in B[ethnal] G[reen].

Regards,

Mark

Coincidentally (I think!), the trade unionist Ben Tillett, mentioned in this (http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=137039&postcount=1) post by Richard Nunweek in connection with Flemming, was a shoemaker in 1881 and lived on the same Royston Street BG mentioned here.