Alice Mackenzie / Kelly / Riley

[Chris Scott]

This press clipping quotes two alternative names for Alice Mackenzie - Alice Kelly and Alice Riley.
This also quotes the story of "Liverpool Liz" which I don't remember seeing before

Plymouth and Cornish Advertiser
17 July 1889

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Easter%202011/mackenzieexsall.jpg

[Phil Carter]

Hello Chris,

Thanks for posting this. It is very interesting indeed. I note with some interest the use of the surname Kelly again. Thats three I believe. Eddowes, Kelly herself and now McKenzie. How peculiar! Oh well, coincidences, coincidences, eh?

best wishes

Phil (Kelly) :behindsofa:

[George Lorton]

Seems Kelly was the alias to have in 1888 among the avaunt guard of Whitechapel.

[How Brown]

Thanks George...for bumping the thread up.

Here's another reference to Cambridge Heath Music Hall...which is what some have been discussing recently ( found in the Plymouth Advertiser).


http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Autumn%202011/cmh.jpg

[Chris Scott]

Going back to what George posted some time back about the use of the name Kelly - Eddowes, McKenzie and Kelly herself - I have also seen a contemporary report asserting that Tabram had used the name Kelly as well.
I'll try and dig it out and post the reference.
If there is any truth in all of this it seems more and more likely that Mary Jane's surname of Kelly was adopted and not her original name.
I cannot think of any obvious reason why the surname Kelly should be adopted as an alias by women on the street.

[Chris G.]

Going back to what George posted some time back about the use of the name Kelly - Eddowes, McKenzie and Kelly herself - I have also seen a contemporary report asserting that Tabram had used the name Kelly as well.
I'll try and dig it out and post the reference.
If there is any truth in all of this it seems more and more likely that Mary Jane's surname of Kelly was adopted and not her original name.
I cannot think of any obvious reason why the surname Kelly should be adopted as an alias by women on the street.

Hi Chris

It would appear entirely logical that these women, illegally soliciting for trade on the streets of London, would use different names, not the least because it might help them evade prosecution for prior offenses in that age before fingerprints and DNA evidence.

However, I am puzzled by your remark, "If there is any truth in all of this it seems more and more likely that Mary Jane's surname of Kelly was adopted and not her original name."

Why so, Chris? Couldn't the woman actually have been named Kelly, given the common nature of the surname?

All the best

Chris

[Chris Scott]

Hi Chris
I agree there is no reaon per se that Kelly's name could not have been real EXCEPT that all the alleged biographical info we are furnished with by Barnett et all fails to check out on any count. This really leaves only limited options
1) Her surname really was Kelly but the forenames Mary Jane or Marie Jeanette were adopted
2) Her name really was Mary Jane Kelly but all or large parts of the alleged biography of her is invented
3) The alleged biographical details are substantially or partly true but her real name was not Mary Jane Kelly
4) Both her name and the details of her life were invented
If case 4 is true then we will never find anything about her. Personally I believe the most likely option (and one that gives a glimmer of hope - albeit small - to researchers) is case 3.
All I was saying was
a) That all research to date suggests the possibility that Kelly was not her real name as a logical reason for the lack of any proven facts about her and
b) That if it could be shown that it was a common practice for prostitutes of the time to adopt the name Kelly as a ready alias then the possibility in Mary Jane's case would be enhanced.
regards
Chris S

[Chris G.]

Hi Chris

Thanks for your answer. I think your conclusion that her name might not have been Kelly at all is partly a product of your frustration at not having been able to verify any of the information which we have about her, which is fair enough. Indeed your expressed conclusion might have validity given your extensive work on trying to track down and verify the details of her background.

I might though point out one other aspect of the Kelly story that has some bearing. That is, that we don't have any stories, do we, that she used multiple other names as we know that other such unfortunates did. That is, the names we do know of for her are the variation Marie Jeanette Kelly, the nicknames "Black Mary," "Fair Emma," and "Ginger", and the married name of Davis or Davies. It would seem to me that the option that Kelly was an adopted name might be true if we knew for certain that she used a number of different surnames but we have no such information.

All the best

Chris

[George Lorton]

Don't mention it gents.

A lot of this information is stuff I am seeing for the first time. Interesting trivia tidbit, there was a Mary Kelly on the Titanic. Wonder how it came about that all of these Kellys were found running about.

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/titanic-survivor/mary-kelly.html

She survived though. Rescued in collapsible lifeboat D. Nice to see something good happen to a Kelly.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Chris
Thanks for your well reasoned answer.
Of the points you mention one that has long interested me is Barnett's insistence that the French style spelling of her forenames was the right one. He said at the inquest:
Her name was Marie Jeanette Kelly with the French spelling as described to me. Kelly was her maiden name.
In his first statement to the police, made on the day of the murder, Barnett said:
I have been living with Marie Jeanette Kelly who occupied No 13 Room Millers Court.
The witness statements, mainly written up by Abberline, are headed:
"Witnesses for inquest to be opened 12th Nov. 88. On the body of Marie Jeanette Kelly."
And of course it is this form of her name that appears on death certificate.
So maybe the often quoted version of events - that plain Mary Jane adopted the more exotic Marie Jeanette, possibly after her trip to France, as an affectation - is exactly the wrong way round. If Barnett is right then she was really Marie Jeanette and her more down to earth friends and cronies used the more prosaic Mary Jane.

[Chris G.]

Hi Chris
Thanks for your well reasoned answer.
Of the points you mention one that has long interested me is Barnett's insistence that the French style spelling of her forenames was the right one. He said at the inquest:
Her name was Marie Jeanette Kelly with the French spelling as described to me. Kelly was her maiden name.
In his first statement to the police, made on the day of the murder, Barnett said:
I have been living with Marie Jeanette Kelly who occupied No 13 Room Millers Court.
The witness statements, mainly written up by Abberline, are headed:
"Witnesses for inquest to be opened 12th Nov. 88. On the body of Marie Jeanette Kelly."
And of course it is this form of her name that appears on death certificate.
So maybe the often quoted version of events - that plain Mary Jane adopted the more exotic Marie Jeanette, possibly after her trip to France, as an affectation - is exactly the wrong way round. If Barnett is right then she was really Marie Jeanette and her more down to earth friends and cronies used the more prosaic Mary Jane.

Hi Chris

Have you done much looking in French records? :)

Chris