Prostitution Thread

[How Brown]

Here is a URL

(www.victorianlondon.org/crime/numbersofprostitutes.htm (http://www.victorianlondon.org/crime/numbersofprostitutes.htm))


dealing with prostitution....

Please note the decrease in the amount of prostitutes from the two charts.....

In 1841---9409

In 1857---8600

In 1868---6515


More to come...

[Shawn-a]

Heavens to Mary, I was looking for a forum for whores, Mr. Brown. Too bad my colleague, Shawn Keegan couldn't be here (RIP) but he was killed in the Triple Event in Toronto in 1996. (Coincidentally, the crime was profiled by Ripper Profiler, John Douglas.)
I used to rip whores myself, thinking I was better than them. Shawn changed my view. Too bad he had to get knocked down the stairs and shot twice with a .357 Magnum. He was still getting up after the first shot. And all that while wearing a mini skirt....In one word:
Uberwench!

[How Brown]

Anyone who can withstand a .357 in a thigh high miniskirt is a tough Uberwench lady to me,even if they were originally a guy.

I'm sorry to hear of the loss of your friend. This subject of the Triple Event in Toronto has been touched on here before. My pal in Toronto ,The Digital Ghost, is also aware of it,as well as two other Torontonians who I am very friendly with and whom I consider top notch wits.;) ;)

Could you extrapolate on how this has affected people in Toronto...assuming that is,if it did at all? After all,prostitutes need to be killed in dozens,sort of like gay people, before attention is drawn to their fates....I'd appreciate your views very much on this crime.

[Shawn-a]

All I know is that I knew one legitimate Satanist who killed prostitutes and now I know one real jealous businessman who killed prostitutes.
So we're even....

P.S. I think your stats are skewed. 80,000 seems right. I found another site that said Paris had 30,000 and London more than double that. And another said the late Georgian/early Victorian period had over 20,000.
Whitechapel was a freak ball-rolling phenomena however you cut it and it puts a new slant on the quote, "I gave birth to the 20th Century!"

[How Brown]

Shawna and all.......

This isn't the biggest "headshaker" of all the headshaking points in the WM...but its worth discussing.

The figure of 80,000 prostitutes in London is a ballpark figure in all likelihood.

Using Mr.Begg's book, The Definitive History, the number of prostitutes actually decreases during the period of 1841-1857 from 9400 to 8600. So there is a definite difference here from the figure posited " 80,000" and the "1,200" in the East End during 1888 which needs clarification.

Again,not that it is a necessary or vitally important statistic in the solution to anything,but I am not alone in being puzzled about that figure.

Any ideas,people?

[Adam Went]

Hi everyone,

How, I must agree with you that the supposed 80,000 prostitutes in London is more than likely just a "roughly" figure.

Of course, if you get down to talking about how many thousands, or even hundreds of prostitutes there were in a certain place at a certain time, that figure can easily change quite quickly and quite dramatically, especially in a place like the East End of London.
What I mean is that young girls would grow into teens, and many, probably the majority, would be forced to turn to prostitution, either to support themselves if they were on their own, or to support their family. At the same time, as prostitutes who had been on the streets for a long time got older and sicker, they got much less business, and therefore would have been forced to go elsewhere or try and do something else to earn enough money to survive on. All of the Ripper's victims, apart from Mary Kelly, were getting towards that stage themselves.
So, as new prostitutes began life on the streets, some of the older ones would have gone off the streets, or died. Then, the exact number of prostitutes at any place at any time would constantly be subject to change - so to say there was "80,000 prostitutes" in London is a pretty far out figure to give, and there's not really any way to tell how close or far away that number was.
I think we can be fairly sure that it isn't a reliable one, though.

Cheers,
Adam. :confused:

[Shawn-a]

Perhaps Englanders are exaggerating so they could have more than double Paris' number? National pride is at stake!...
I know the pervading notion is that prostitutes are disenfranchised, and in fact they are, but, on a cold rainy Victoria Day night in Canada, you'll find the same people out as you would in the noonday sun in India....Wilkinsons, Ludgates, etc....
Disenfranchised but still the franchise, serving who exactly if not the establishment?
The forgotten Friekorps of the empire. 400 years in Canada and nothing to show for it, because they gave it all to Queen Victoria?...
(Not that I want to legalize prostitution. North America ain't Europe!)

[Shawn-a]

I've discovered another site where the 1200 prostitutes in Whitechapel number turns into 12000. (I'm willing to accept that number.) It's entitled the Stepney Murders: The Whitechapel Murders 1888-89.
I've never heard them called the Stepney Murders.

[How Brown]

Shawna:

Please provide the URL for that site in a follow up post,if you would be so kind...

If any problem,please let me know.

[Shawn-a]

http://website.lineone.net/~fight/Stepney/whitemur.htm

I believe Stepney borders Whitechapel to the south.

[How Brown]

Thanks Shawna...

Here's an excerpt from William Acton's book on prostitution....
****************************

East End Prostitutes
"Some shades of prostitution unknown to the more fashionable West are to be discerned in the East End of London. To acquaint myself with these, I made a pilgrimage in company with Captain Harris, Assistant Commissioner of Police, to the notorious Ratcliffe Highway. We were attended by the Superintendent of the Executive Branch of the Metropolitan police, and two Inspectors. The night being very wet, the streets were comparatively empty, and therefore I can say little or nothing from personal observation about the condition of street prostitution in this district. I understand that it in no respect differs from what we see elsewhere. The first house we entered was one in which prostitutes reside. It was kept by a dark, swarthy, crisp-haired Jewess, half creole in appearance, who stated that she was a widow, and that having married a Christian, she had been discarded by her own people. To my inquiry whether she knew of many Jewesses who led a life of prostitution, she replied in the negative, giving as a reason that the Jews look after their people better than Christians, and assist them when in distress. The police Inspectors corroborated her statement, which seems to contradict the prevalent notion that houses of ill-fame are frequently kept by Jewesses. We went upstairs, and saw the rooms, eight in number, which were let out to as many women. The landlady told us that they pay 2s. when they bring home a visitor, and she thought that on an average they are lucky when they bring two each in the course of the evening. This woman was clearly indisposed to let us into her secrets, seeing us accompanied by the Inspectors, and entered into a rambling statement as to the care and leniency with which she treated her lodgers when they were 'out of luck'. She asserted, and the statement was corroborated by the girls, that they kept themselves; two may chum, or sleep together, when disengaged; but they receive the money they earn, and are not farmed out. The utmost pressure put upon them is, perhaps, that they are induced to go out and persevere in prostitution when otherwise indisposed to do so. When ill, they apply to the hospital, and St Bartholomew's appeared to be the favourite establishment. This house may be taken as a fair sample of the brothels existing in the East End of London.
The Inspectors next introduced us into a long, dirty room, behind a public-house. In the distance was a German band, such as one often sees in the streets. Several couples were waltzing, and other visitors were arranged round the room, smoking long pipes and drinking beer. We were next ushered into a large music-hall connected with a public-house. On the stage some interesting drama was going on, while the spectators drank and smoked; the majority were men, but they were in many instances accompanied by their wives and sweethearts. To make observations on the latter was my object, and I noted that in and out of the passages and bar were passing crowds of well-dressed women, according to East End fashions; some were prostitutes, but many were married women, according to the belief of my informants. This curious amalgamation - this elbowing of vice and virtue - constituted a very striking feature, and was to me a novel one. It is brought about, I presume, by the modern plan of these public-house amusements, enabling the mechanic, his wife and his daughters, to rationally spend the evening, as it is called, in witnessing plays, hearing music, and seeing dancing, at the same time that the man can smoke his pipe and drink his beer by the side of his wife. The landlords - two brothers, Jews, who told us they had been in Australia - assured us that they took the greatest pains to maintain order and decorum. My chief interest lay in considering the effect produced upon married women by becoming accustomed at these reunions to witness the vicious and profligate sisterhood flaunting it gaily, or 'first-rate', in their language - accepting all the attentions of men, freely plied with liquor, sitting in the best places, dressed far above their station, with plenty of money to spend, and denying themselves no amusement or enjoyment, encumbered with no domestic ties, and burdened with no children. Whatever the purport of the drama might have been, this actual superiority of a loose life could not have escaped the attention of the quick-witted sex.
What the result may be remains to be seen, but the enormous increase of establishments similar to the above must, I think, tend to the spread of immorality both in the East and West End of London. One explanation that I have received of the phenomenon, and it seems to me a plausible one, is that it is not unusual for the mechanic's wife to have sisters who are frail, and to these are accorded the greatest measure of kindness, and a sort of commiseration, which not infrequently culminates in their having a drop o' gin' together, and so forgetting for a time their mutual troubles - for the mechanic and the mechanic's wife have their troubles, and very serious ones, in providing for their daily wants, and any persons connected with them whom they see well-dressed, and with money in their pockets, command a kind of respect, although the source from whence the means are obtained may be a disreputable one. This same mingling of vicious with presumably respectable women is also noticeable at the Alhambra and other music-halls at the West End of London, and in this respect they seem to me to exercise a more evil influence on the public morals than the casino, as to these last the notoriously profligate only resort."
(From William Acton, Prostitution, considered in its Moral, Social, and Sanitary Aspects 2nd edition 1870)

[RJM]

Thanks for that account, How. It makes for interesting reading. Many people who study the Ripper crimes discuss Jewish suspects, yet the subject of Jewish prostitution is neglected; probably because none of the Whitechapel victims were Jewish. Given the number of Jews in the East End, one wonders how many Jewish prositutes were at work. Did they work mostly in brothels? Did they walk the streets in any large numbers?

Do you know if Acton discusses the question of Jewish prostitution further, or is this all he has to say on Jews and prostitution? I hope not, because it leaves me with many questions.

Cheers,

Robert

[How Brown]

Thanks for that account, How. It makes for interesting reading. Many people who study the Ripper crimes discuss Jewish suspects, yet the subject of Jewish prostitution is neglected; probably because none of the Whitechapel victims were Jewish. Given the number of Jews in the East End, one wonders how many Jewish prositutes were at work. Did they work mostly in brothels? Did they walk the streets in any large numbers?

Do you know if Acton discusses the question of Jewish prostitution further, or is this all he has to say on Jews and prostitution? I hope not, because it leaves me with many questions.


Dear Robert:

As you are aware of,Jewish women engaged in prostitution just like any other "group" of people. In the days of the Barbary Coast in old California, I remember reading years ago in an old crime magazine that Jewish prostitutes usually got paid a little better than other types of prostitutes,primarily because they also included fellatio in their available services. Specifically red headed ones, for some reason. Thats not a joke.

In addition,I know you have heard(read) the comment that Jews took better care of their women than the Gentile denizens of the East End and that this might be why there is little documentation of Jewish women walking the streets in Whitechapel. In some ways,that IS true.

It appears that most newly arrived or first generation immigrant groups are more herd conscious than the established citizenry. I experience this every day at work,where the actions of Asian men my age are very group-based and reflect a concern for their women and children and any possible stigma attached to the group by the conduct of one person.

Let me look further into this for you,as it is a mystery why already established Jewish women aren't mentioned much in the literature. I don't have Acton's book,but will ask around today.

Jane Coram,herself a Jewish lady,and who lives in the East End today,might be able to help me.

If anyone else has that book or further insight to what Robert has mentioned,please add that to this thread. I get sidetracked at times and like Robert,would like to know more about what he has queried.

Its also quite possible that Jewish women may have worked in brothels serving Jewish patrons only.

[RJM]

Thanks for the reply, How.

You can probably see where I am going with this. Reading any of the social history books, we know Jewish prostitutes worked the East End. I am making an assumption by thinking that there were more working in brothels than on the street owing to the fact that prostitute murders in the East End before, during, and after JtR, do not involve Jewish women. Bit of a puzzle, isn't it?

Janie's a great lady. I just love her. I met her at Brighton. I also haven't e-mailed her in awhile, so thanks for giving me another reason to do so, How.

Cheers,

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

She sure is sir...

You might want to peruse the Tuesday Night Trivia that Casebook's chat facilities holds. Its usually a pretty wild affair and Jane can always be found there ( 6 PM Eastern Standard Time ).

By the way,your Individual Forum is all set up for you....:thumbsupbud:

Just go to the main Individual Forum on the index and scroll down to your initials.

[Shawn-a]

Too bad my colleague, Shawn Keegan couldn't be here (RIP) but he was killed in the Triple Event in Toronto in 1996.

http://www.rememberingourdead.org/people/shawnkeegan.jpg

[Jules Rosenthal]

G'day Robert, Howie,

I've just had a look at this thread and it's got me interested.

From a website I just looked up, the Jews looked at prostitution as a business just like any other. That might explain why there's little mentioned about them as they were kept in a 'business' environment.

Cheers and I'll check this one out further 'cause this could open up another discussion piece like - 'Were the Jews trying to get a monoply on prostitution in the East End by scaring off the local women?'

Yeah, this could be very interesting.

Cheers
Jules

[How Brown]

Jules:

Thats what I feel as well,old man. I think that the immigrants were more dependent on their "own" in not only prostitution,but in shops or other endeavors as well. At least thats the impression that I gathered from reading the available literature on it. I'd wager that nearly all of the Jewish prostitutes were in bordellos,as opposed to native Brits.

[Robert Linford]

"All right, fourpence, and I'm cutting my own throat."

Robert

[Magpie]

Hi guys.

I just ran across this with a bit of a shock. Shawn Keegan was from my hometown, and despite the fact that s/he was "just" a transvestite prostitute, there was a widespread and genuine outpouring of shock and support the his family after the murder.

[How Brown]

Magpie:

Keegan was also killed in what Shawna calls, "The Triple Event"...a killing spree conducted in one night and at three different locales. He,of course,knew this gentleman.

[Magpie]

Hi How:)

Yes, I remember the case quite clearly--it got a lot of press here because of the "local" connection.

[admin tim]

http://www.wondersmith.com/heroes/index.htm

And we can think of five more right off the bat who should qualify....

[STRAMBO]

http://sensesofcinema.com/images/directors/03/27/midnight4.jpg (http://www.sensesofcinemaidnight4.jpg)

[STRAMBO]

http://www.videodetective.com/photos/014/000610_17.jpg
Shawn on Crime Stories (History Channel)

[admin tim]

http://theaphroditeproject.tv/

Too bad that Catherine Eddowes had men's boots instead of these, eh?

Build a better mousetrap and they just build better mice....

[admin tim]

http://www.makemyselfrich.com/sex-sexuality/sex-penny.htm

[admin tim]

http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/10/22/sex-work-figure-fixing-and-victorian-philanthropy/

[admin tim]

http://www.wisc.edu/english/sdb/Dirty_Reading.pdf

[admin tim]

http://digitalcommons.conncoll.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=histhp

99 pages! Bring your lunch.

[admin tim]

http://www.historicaleye.com/Lost1.html

Vagrants and prostitutes in Victorian London.

Much of Walkowitz’s work stems from an analysis of a sizeable late Victorian questionnaire of 16,000 prostitutes who went through the Millbank Penitentiary in the late 1880s.

Many other prostitutes were ‘dollymops’, usually older women who held other jobs, but supplemented their meagre incomes with irregular acts of streetwalking. These women were at the bottom of the ‘sex industry’. According to Chesney they were ‘whores in the last resort, and ready to escape back to another life as soon as they could.

Seedy, sleazy and morally bankrupt, it was no surprise that streetwalking became closely tied to notions of degeneracy and the view that prostitutes were conduits for disease, contagion, filth and decay. Although we should note these opinions were frequently voiced by those with little knowledge of the realities on the ground, often by academics, or journalists whipping themselves into frenzy of indignation. For example, only a few weeks before the savage butchery of Mary Jane Kelly by Jack the Ripper, a Daily News’ correspondent wrote that Whitechapel prostitutes were ‘bloated by drink and distorted by passion’.

There's plenty more in here; this is one profound work and well worth your read. It contains much information that I had not known, such as the questionnaire for the 16,000 prostitutes in Millbank.

Be sure to read the 'Strength in Adversity' section - it discusses three of Jack's victims.
http://www.historicaleye.com/Lost5.html

But it must be emphasised that it is not within the remit of this dissertation to analyse the grisly details of the murders, or to dwell on the reaction – often hysterical – of the press and public. Rather, we shall confine ourselves to looking at the lives of three victims: Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman and Mary Jane Kelly. We will chart the course of their lives and consider the extent that they match the model of prostitution constructed by Walkowitz and the views of other historians we have touched upon.