More on Lewis Carroll as JTR

[admin tim]

http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/archives/1996.11/msg00014.html

[Karen]

Why is this letter-scrambling poet still a suspect? I mean really!! Much too old, much too meek, and not qualified to perform extremely complex surgical procedures.

[admin tim]

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a970307a.html

You've always heard about these, but have you ever seen them?

[How Brown]

Hey,maybe there's something to these anagrams...



Bet I beat my glands til,
With hand-sword I slay the evil gender.
A slimey theme; borrow gloves,
And masturbate the hog more!

I can relate to the masturbatin' hog part...:rolleyes:
Isn't that the national sport of Wales?

[admin tim]

http://billworld92683.tripod.com/id25.html

[Bill]

Clearly Lewis Carroll is innocent. The 'evidence' is so weak as to be laughable - and to prove it I am laughing as I write.

However, I have a theory of my own - soon to be the subject of a book, film, and branded nursery-wares.

For anyone who has not heard of A.A Milne, he was the creator of the Winnie the Pooh stories, and I believe it is in these seemingly innocent tales of a stuffed bear that the evil mind of a mass murderer found refuge.

Milne made famous the art of the 'misheardastood', a cunning way of misrepresenting a word, so that its meaning remains clear to the initiated, while bearing very little in common with the actual word. A prime example is when Pooh and Piglet go hunting 'woozles' and 'heffalumps', rather than weasels and elephants.

Hence, when Milne writes about Pooh's obsession with honey, he was actually writing about his own obsession with 'cunny'. If you then recall Pooh is often stealing this 'honey' from under the nose of 'bees' (clearly the 'poleez/police), then the depths of Milne's villainy becomes all too clear.

Obviously the work of unravelling Jack's trail through Milne's extensive writings, both in the Pooh stories, and his collections of children's rhymes will take some years, and any help from fellow members will be much appreciated.

[Robert Linford]

I know little of Milne, but I note that "The House At Pooh Corner" is probably meant to read "Pooh Coroner," though "Poo Corner" is possible, being a sneering allusion to Ripper Corner in Mitre Square and the associated faeces.

"Now We Are Six" confirms that Tabram was part of the series.

"Portrait Of A Gentleman In Slippers" is a desperate attempt to throw the blame on Leather Apron.

[Robert Linford]

If we look at the name "Milne," we see that it's an anagram of "limen" which is the Latin for "threshold." Evidently Milne was challenging the police to deduce the identity of the Goulston St writer.Unfortunately for Milne, one man, MJ Druitt, did just that and had to be silenced. Note however the manner of Druitt's death - an extremely sinister game of Pooh sticks. Milne's twisted sense of humour didn't fail him even here.

[Bill]

My dear Linford

Breakfasting on a dish of cold curried eggs in our old rooms above the massage parlour in Baker St this morning, I was moved by two things: one being the eggs, the other being the sheer brilliance of your 'Pooh Sticks' deduction in relation to the unfortunate Druitt.

I went immediately to my copy of Winnie the Pooh, and believe I have discovered yet more evidence, cunningly hidden in the original chapter titles:

Chapter One: in which we are introduced to Winnie-the-Pooh and some bees, and the stories begin.

Notice the chilling similarity in the names Winnie-the-Pooh and Jack-the-Ripper.
'Bees', as I have already pointed out, clearly refer to the police.
But possibly most interesting of all, note Milne's choice of the word 'stories', rather than just 'story', indicating he clearly intends a 'series of events' rather than a one off.

I shall be busy the rest of the morning working on the case of the Hudson Cherry, but I expect a break-through soon, and hope to return to Milne by this afternoon.

[Mike Covell]

Pooh has an abundance of Honey Pots, and the ancient Egyptians kept organs in pots, did Milne have a collection of organs in pots?

:faint:

[Bill]

Pooh has an abundance of Honey Pots, and the ancient Egyptians kept organs in pots, did Milne have a collection of organs in pots?



Interesting ... very interesting. It had never occurred to me that there might be an Egyptian link, but of course it would make perfect sense. A careful study of Milne's life and works reveals that Egypt plays absolutely no part in either. Therefore, what would any intelligent serial killer base his MO on, but that very thing.

I feel the net is drawing about Milne with an almost frightening surety.

[Mike Covell]

In ancient Egyption Heiroglyphics the "Owl" was said to represent "M"

Owl was the wisest of the bunch in 100 Acre Wood.

The Letter "M" features in several Ripper Letters,
The Letter "M" features in several of the victims names,
The Letter "M" features in the names of several of the murder scenes,
The Letter "M" is said to feature on MJK's wall,

Out of interest, the heiroglyphics below are said to represent
"Jack the Ripper"

http://www.quizland.com/hiero/j.gif http://www.quizland.com/hiero/a.gif http://www.quizland.com/hiero/c.gif http://www.quizland.com/hiero/k.gif http://www.quizland.com/hiero/th.gif http://www.quizland.com/hiero/e.gif http://www.quizland.com/hiero/r.gif http://www.quizland.com/hiero/i.gif http://www.quizland.com/hiero/p.gif http://www.quizland.com/hiero/e.gif http://www.quizland.com/hiero/r.gif

[Robert Linford]

Gentlemen, the Egyptian connection is indeed intriguing. In this regard, let us consider the Egyptian goddess Isis and her brother god Wafers - a tie-in with the Seaside Home?

It is also worth remembering that the woman allegedly murdered at Christmas 1887 has no name but Fairy Fay to identify her. Did the killer take not only her earthly life but her eternal life too, by destroying her name? Was JTR a PSK - a Posthumous Serial Killer?

[Mike Covell]

Egyptions removed the brain via the nose prior to embalming, most ripper suspect books read like the writer has had his/her brain removed via the nose prior to writing!

[Bill]

Gentlemen, the Egyptian connection is indeed intriguing. In this regard, let us consider the Egyptian goddess Isis and her brother god Wafers - a tie-in with the Seaside Home?

It is also worth remembering that the woman allegedly murdered at Christmas 1887 has no name but Fairy Fay to identify her. Did the killer take not only her earthly life but her eternal life too, by destroying her name? Was JTR a PSK - a Posthumous Serial Killer?

Fairy Fay was merely a misunderstanding caused by the reporter's lack of familiarity with the speed with which Cockneys speak. Her real name was Effie, a quite popular name in Victorian times, and being fair of face, she was known as Fair Effie.

Now, since Mary Kelly was known as Fair Emma, this opens up a very interesting line of investigation indeed.

Fairs, being in those days closely associated with Gypsies - and the term 'Gypsy' being derived from Egyptian, and Egyptians being fond of removing vital organs through very small openings, then keeping them in jars, it seems to me that we are on to something big.

But where does Milne and his alter-ego of Pooh come in? Pooh certainly has no dealings with gypsies, but another bear most definitely does. Rupert not only encounters a number of gypsy bands during his adventures, but actually has a gypsy boy as a friend.

Could Rupert and Pooh be one and the same?

[Robert Linford]

Bill, there is definitely a Pooh/Rupert connection here.

"Hush, hush, whisper who dares
Christopher Robin is saying his prayers"

"You would say anything but your prayers"

Now consider the JTR letter which contained the phrase "That should tickle their ovaries." Not so far from "tinkle the ivories" - an obvious dig at Edward Trunk, who "knew too much" and ended up as a piano.

If we add in Rupert's disorganized behaviour - he wears a scarf but no coat - we can see that there was something very dark and menacing stalking Nutwood.

[Bill]

Bill, there is definitely a Pooh/Rupert connection here.

"Hush, hush, whisper who dares
Christopher Robin is saying his prayers"

"You would say anything but your prayers"

Now consider the JTR letter which contained the phrase "That should tickle their ovaries." Not so far from "tinkle the ivories" - an obvious dig at Edward Trunk, who "knew too much" and ended up as a piano.

If we add in Rupert's disorganized behaviour - he wears a scarf but no coat - we can see that there was something very dark and menacing stalking Nutwood.

Damn me, but I knew the church would be involved somewhere. The prayer code certainly needs further unravelling, but it is the mention of Edward Trunk that has suddenly made things clearer than three pipes and a seven percent solution combined.

I now believe the solution to the whole affair lies in Milne's fiendishly clever idea of hiding the clues not just in the Hundred Acre Wood, but also in the parallel world of Nutwood - a system not unlike the dual key system used for firing nuclear missiles.

It is now quite clear to me that Edward Trunk, with his elephantine features, is a thinly-veiled disguise for William Gladstone, owner of a large hooter.

Why then would the former Prime Minister appear in Nutwood as a friend of Milne/Rupert, yet in an altogether different way in the Pooh stories?

The answer is as plain as the nose on his face: Nutwood represents the normal everyday world, where Milne, in his Rupert persona, mixes with Prime Ministers, and displays a loveable eccentricity by going about in a scarf yet no coat, and wearing the same clothes year in and year out.

The Hundred Acre Wood, on the other hand, represents the other, darker world that Milne also inhabits. In this world of the mentally insane (the depressive Eeyore and his 'gloomy place'; Owl, who claims to be scholarly, yet signs his name Wol, to name but a few) Gladstone, who represents law and order, becomes the fearful and shadowy 'Heffalump'.

[Robert Linford]

Bill, your identification of Edward Trunk with William Ewart Gladstone has the ring of truth, for it is a little known fact that Gladstone was stone deaf - which is just what you'd expect to find with someone whose earholes were covered by two huge flaps. "Ewart" was actually Gladstone's cosmetic rendition of his nickname : he was known as William "You what?" Gladstone.

Gladstone's deafness made him highly dependant upon lip reading. The Tories soon realised that the way to beat Gladstone was to put up a very hairy-faced, bearded and moustchioed man as his opposite number - hence Lord Salisbury.

[jmenges]

Here is a map Milne drew years later, from memory, of the Whitechapel/Spitalfields area.

http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php/2751/E301_1_006i.jpg

JM

[Bill]

Here is a map Milne drew years later, from memory, of the Whitechapel/Spitalfields area.

http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php/2751/E301_1_006i.jpg

JM

Thank you, jmenges. A discovery equal only to James Maybrick's watch - except that in this case it is genuine!

If we take the bees tree, indicated in the top part of the drawing, as being Bishopsgate Police Station where Kate Eddowes spent her last few hours, then it can be seen that she met her death in the place marked as Rabbit's House (and what a cunning name to give Mitre Square, with it's warren-like entrances and exits).

Annie Chapman was killed in the back yard of the place marked as Christopher Robin's house.

Polly Nichols met her end in Eeyore's Gloomy Place.

Berner St, where Liz Stride was killed is represented by 'Where the Woozle Wasn't' (surely a clear indication from Milne that he wasn't involved in that murder - and that Liz was not a Ripper victim).

And finally, Mary Kelly on the site marked as 'Rabbit's Friends and Family' obviously pointing to a close relationship between Eddowes and Kelly.

To my mind there is now no possible doubt that Milne was the Ripper. Case closed?

[Robert Linford]

JM, I cannot access your map. Instead I am asked to log in.

[Mike Covell]

JM, I cannot access your map. Instead I am asked to log in.

Me too, it takes me to some sort of Open University Login page!

[jmenges]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1159990/E301_1_006i.jpg

The Murder District.

JM

[Robert Linford]

Thanks JM. Is Sandy Pit near Gravel Lane?

[admin tim]

http://paranormal.suite101.com/article.cfm/was_lewis_caroll_jack_the_ripper

[Currerbell]

I was in Bridlington the other day, a seaside town on the English east coast, and there is a village about 6 miles inland from Brid' called Burton Agnes.

I visited the local church, very old and beautiful, as Charlotte Bronte received a marriage proposal from a curate called Henry Nussey who worked there back in the 1830s. Henry was the brother of Ellen Nussey, Charlottes best mate. Charlotte also holidayed in Bridlington which was called Burlington at the time, and so its presumed she visited this church.

Anyway, I hadnt realised that the Reverend Lutwidge who Henry worked with in the church was the uncle of Lewis Carroll!

Small world eh?

[John Savage]

Hi Currerbell,

Interesting to hear that there was a Rev.Lutwidge working in the church at Burton Agnes, which is only about 25 miles from Hull where there was also a vicar of the same name, who if my memory serves me correctly, was Lewis Carroll's father in law.

Rgds
John

[Currerbell]

How strange?!

I wonder if it was the same man then, and they got the wrong relation to Carroll?

[Mike Covell]

Charles Lutwidge Dodgeson, was Lewis Carrolls Uncle. He was a vicar, and was married at the Worship street Church, under what is now the new Hull History Centre.

Dodgeson was employed by Trinity House and Hull Corporation in a role similar to Richard Stephenson Snr's.

The Hull Reference Library has several volumnes of Lewis Carrolls diaries and they contain the family tree.

[ferret]

Spooky!
The trouble with this is that there were a hell of a lot of Mad Hatters at that party!
Carroll as the Ripper- I doubt it very much- a little like Robert Louis Stevenson- both VERRY interesting characters- along with Sickert I guess- The Ripper- NO!!!:laser:

Grey, Local man- YES!:clap:
Suz x

[Currerbell]

Thanks for the info Mike.

More Bronte/Ripper connections again! LOL

I could write a book! Ha ha!

[George Hutchinson]

Dodgson rented a house next to my summer workplace, died there in January 1898, and is buried in my home town (at the top of the street where I used to live). We don't play on the link a huge amount, but we do have two Alice statues in Guildford.

PHILIP

[Currerbell]

Hi Philip, thanks for letting us know that.

[Robert Linford]

I believe that the town scenes from the first series of "Catweazle" were filmed in Guildford.

[George Hutchinson]

I believe that the town scenes from the first series of "Catweazle" were filmed in Guildford.

Really? Wow! I'll have to check that out. Our other big claim to fame is that the cathedral where the wedding in The Omen takes place (where Damien has the screaming fit) is Guildford's, visible from my bedroom window. And the director's comment on the DVD? "This was some English cathedral somewhere - I think it was Coventry or something".

PHILIP

[Robert Linford]

Coventry!? Oh dear!

The websites say that much of "Catweazle" was filmed on a farm at East Clandon near Guildford, but there are two or three town scenes and I thought I read somewhere that these were done at Guildford itself. Might be wrong though.

Only a few months ago I watched series one on the ITV player, but it seems to have been removed now - probably to make way for more X Factor, Coronation St and other 'jewels' in their crown.

My grandmother was placed as a baby with a family in Guildford, courtesy of an East End missionary - a place called Weycliffe Terrace. I don't think it exists any more.

[Chris G.]

"The 1970s childrens TV series Catweazle was filmed in and around East Clandon and particularly in the barn at Home Farm."

"The second series of Catweazle was filmed around Bayford and Brickendon. Some scenes were also filmed at the Great Molewood tunnel just north of Hertford ..."

Google on "Catweazle was filmed" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4SUNA_enUS307US213&q=%22Catweazle+was+filmed%22+&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)

[Robert Linford]

Thanks Chris. So the town was East Horsley. Well done!

Teach me thy magic, O master.

[George Hutchinson]

Yeah, let's turn this into a Guildford thread!

Robert, my earliest Guildford directory, of which I have a dozen or more, is 1936 and there's no Weycliff Terrace by then, and I've never heard of it.

However, such a place is very likely to have existed as we've lost plenty of streets in the town over the years and the River Wey runs right through us. We do have a couple of small cliffs in the area as well! Do you have any further info?

PHILIP

[Robert Linford]

Hi Philip

I'll dig out the census returns and get back to you.

[Robert Linford]

Hi again Philip

My grandmother's mother died giving birth to her, and since my grandmother's sisters were not really old enough to look after her while my widowed great-grandfather was out working, the east end missionary offered to place my grandmother with a good family - which in her book would have meant good Christian family - in Guildford. This was 1900 or very early 1901.The missionary was called Alice Tufnell and the foster family were the Keen family.

Looking at the censuses, in 1891 Miss Tufnell was living in Guildford, at St Catherine's Cottage, which seems to have been next door to Montague House. In 1901, the Keens at Weycliff Terrace, and St Catherine's Cottage, were on consecutive pages, though by then Miss Tufnell was working at a nursing home in West Ham.

There is a Ferry cottage nearby and I think Weycliff(e) Terrace was right by the river, and perhaps just off the Portsmouth Road. When I was about 5 my grandmother did a sort of sentimental journey and I was taken to Guildford and shown the River Wey. Then I was told a story about how someone or other had gone swimming in it, got his feet tangled in the weeds, and drowned. The Wey looked rather sinister then. I have never swum in a river. In fact, I have never swum.

Oral tradition has Miss Tufnell as the sister of a Bishop, but I have not found any evidence for it so far. She was born in or near Blandford in Dorset.

She kept in touch with my grandmother through the remainder of her life, and would visit with gifts for the children. She also acted as godmother at the baptisms, I think.

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Robert.

Yeah, I know exactly where you're talking about now. It's not actually in the town at all but at Artington, right on the border of St Catherine's Village just outside Guildford on the road to the town of Godalming (where the Titanic's wireless operator Jack Phillips hailed from). Just above the cottages around Ferry Lane are the substantial ruins of St Catherine's Chapel. The train line to Portsmouth runs right through the hill and the whole hill shakes when a train goes under. There was a massive tunnel collapse there in 1896, as it's only sand. The River Wey is right underneath and, until a bridge was constructed linking that side to the water meadows on the road to Shalford, the only way of crossing was by a punted ferry (ceased in the 1960s). I have loads of old postcards of this area.

To be honest, there is very little in the way of development around there and I suspect that many, if not all, the houses still stand.

By 1961, there's no mention of Montague House or St Catherine's Cottage, but Ferry Cottage is certainly in the Kelly's directory. I do know the line of cottages along the River Wey at the bottom of the hill and I am sure they still remain as they were then.

PHILIP

[Robert Linford]

Thanks Philip. Your mention of a punt certainly rings a bell. Also, I think the chapel must be the building in the background of an old family photo. One day I'll have to take a look round the area.

[George Hutchinson]

Family photos around Guildford???!!!

SHOW ME SHOW ME SHOW ME.

PHILIP

[Robert Linford]

Hi Philip

It's a photo that's been glued to a piece of cardboard for decades and I don't have a scanner.

[George Hutchinson]

Bum. Oh, ignore the PM from earlier, Robert. It was the wrong Robert!

Still, is this the building?

http://images.francisfrith.com/c10/450/40/guildford_35073.jpg

PHILIP

[Robert Linford]

Almost certainly, Philip, although the middle window at the top looks open in that pic, whereas in mine, which is more full-on, the middle window is bricked up.

[George Hutchinson]

Your cottages are on the other side of the building, though, Robert. That said, it still looks pretty similar and although I have dozens of photographs of it as it looked from the late 1800s until the 1950s, I have never seen or heard of that window being blocked.

PHILIP

[Robert Linford]

Hi Philip

Yes, the middle window is blocked. The archway beneath it has a gate vertically grilled all the way up, and the window top right next to the bricked up one has vertical grills which go about a third of the way up.

The photo I have looks to be around 1950, something like that.

[Currerbell]

That building looks very atmospheric...and gothic.

I would like to visit Guildford one day... to see Top Gear being filmed!:tongue1:

[George Hutchinson]

Top Gear! Talking of celebs and cars...

A few days ago at the bottom of my hill, I saw a car do a three point turn on a sharp bend, cars whizzed round and almost drove into it, beeped their horns and had to negotiate round the car as the driver took no notice. He went down the road, drove back... and a minute later did the same thing again and again almost caused accidents. As the car drove away again, I saw the driver - local resident and BBC newsreader Michael Beurke.

PHILIP

[Currerbell]

Beurke by name, burk by nature then?:mmph::fear:

[admin tim]

http://dev.null.org/psychoceramics/archives/1996.11/msg00014.html

[admin tim]

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1236/do-anagrams-in-lewis-carrolls-poems-prove-he-was-jack-the-ripper

[admin tim]

http://www.sff.net/people/doylemacdonald/r_ripper.htm

Sorry, kids; ADULTS ONLY!