Emma Smith

[How Brown]

A 45 year old widow who supported herself by prostitution,Emma and Martha Tabram share some commonalities ( not necessarily killed by the same hand ) which are interesting.

Smith,unlike Tabram,was known to have been assaulted by a group of men ( one being in his late teens according to Emma ) who robbed and raped her and then in an act of sheer evil,thrust a blunt instrument into her vagina afterwards which killed her on April 4th,1888.

Not being disrespectful to Phillip Sugden here,but I disagree with his opinion that the three had no intention of killing her,rather just inflicting a severe and cowardly beating on this woman.

You stick a blunt object far enough into a woman and do it with force,that sounds like they wanted to incapacitate her for a long time. Just my opinion.

[Karen]

How:

I actually agree with you here. It may or may not be possible that one or more of her killers may have known that the insertion of a blunt object into the womb would cause severe hemmorhaging, peritonitis, infection and the possible death that would be a result of any or all of these injuries. :smoker:

[How Brown]

Karen:

The murder of Emma Smith actually sounds like something that would happen today in America,rather than in 1888 London,because of that coup de gras with the stick after the damage was done.

Just my opinion.

[Karen]

You think so, How? I guess that it could be possible in any country though. It is a very brutal thing to do to a woman. At least the other victims of JTR died relatively quickly. Emma Smith went on to survive for 2 more days - I would imagine that she would have been continuously bleeding vaginally and would have been in extreme pain. It is quite horrific, as a woman, to imagine such a horrible demise.

[How Brown]

Karen:

Although "murder is murder"....to me,at least in the case of Mrs.Smith,the afterthought of the stick enters another realm of banal evil.

With the Ripper,who as most theorize,was a victim of psychosis,here we have an "excuse" for the atrociousness of the crimes committed to the Ripper victims.

With the gang-bang on Mrs.Smith,the act of rape was already a done deed....and the stick penetration going into the realm of just pure evil. Thats just me.

There have been thousands of murders far more brutal,as you are aware of,than the Whitechapel Murders. Even Mrs.Tabram's murder,if not a Ripper murder,was more horrifying in several ways than Mrs.Nichols and/or Mrs.Stride's....to me at least.

[Karen]

How:

Yes, I do agree with you, especially in the case of Tabram as I believe that she may have still been alive when she was initially stabbed in the chest with the bayonet.

[How Brown]

Karen:

Precisely what I meant about Mrs.Tabram.

The first thirty eight wounds may have,as you have posited,merely left her in a state of extreme shock and the final wound,whether by bayonet as many feel,committed while she was semi-conscious.....a horrifying thought.

[Karen]

Yes it is, How. All of the deaths, even the non-canonical ones were awful. As you say "murder is murder", but wouldn't you rather die quickly than slowly and painfully?

[How Brown]

Karen:

Exactly. A quick death would be preferable than a prolonged one,if this option was "available". Thats why Smith's and Tabram's' murders,which get far less ink than the C5 victims,are,again...to me....worse than the more discussed accepted Ripper murders. A real case of irony.

[Karen]

Here, here!! I am starting to think that people automatically feel sympathy towards the canonical five in the series, or four or six simply because of the fact that they were JTR victims. A "murderer is a murderer", yet JTR puts so much fear and dread in the hearts of people, it is almost like they believe he was the most vicious killer in history, when, just to reiterate the point you made earlier, that there have been serial killers that have racked up more kills than JTR. Just look at the Pig Farmer from Vancouver, who it is said, killed at least 100 women - all prostitutes, drug addicts or mentally disadvantaged. Their remains were all found on his property.

[Stan Reid]

We only have Smith's word that she was attacked by a gang. I'm not so sure she wasn't covering for something or someone. Even if it was a gang, that doesn't mean that one wasn't Jack and that this is where he got his reinforcement and/or taste for murder. A serial killer has to start somewhere.

[Dougie]

S tan,
Covering for someone or something?Fear of reprisals you mean if she told all she knew?

[Stan Reid]

Hi Dougie,

Yes, or perhaps she knew her attacker and didn't want him punished.

[Dougie]

stan.
possible i guess, misguided loyalty or fear of repercussions whatever.....but after what they or he did to her I doubt she had much to fear.....although ive often thought maybe the "gang bang" took place, perpetrators left , and then somebody completely unrelated to original rape ,came across her and killed her etc.......probabley unlikely,but stranger things have been known to happen i imagine.
regards

[John Malcolm]

Hey Stan & Dougie,
I've always felt that it was wrong to dismiss the murders of Tabram and Smith off-hand, as possible victims of the Whitechapel murderer, but the Smith murder is a particularly hard-sell; Walter Dew is the only one that I can remember who actually believed Smith to be a victim of "Jack the Ripper." If you have a minute and want to hear some of my views on the subject, here is a link to the little book that I wrote a few years ago (the relevant bits are in Part III): www.casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.malcolm.html
I'd be very interested in what you think...

[Stan Reid]

Hi John and Dougie,

Thanks for the link - well laid out.

I think Smith is less than 50-50 as a victim of JtR but she is not a hard sell to me. It's possible that Jack needed some help getting up the courage to start even if it was a gang which I have my doubts about. As I recall, she didn't come up with that story until later. Why? There was also that strike to the reproductive organs which was sort of a JtR trademark; something you didn't have with Tabram.

I have a feeling that Smith will be a hotter topic since the 120 is coming up in a week.

Stan

[How Brown]

John,Stan,Doug....

One thing that sort of stands out in the Smith murder is that if 4 people,youths or adult, did commit this heinous act...they must have been awfully tight as friends. For the balance of their lives, as far as we know, not one of them rolled over on the other three and confessed to being involved or knowing any of the others that did.

As one of those really obtuse thoughts that I get from time to time, I thought once that of the 4 that were involved, that it affected that one so much that he became our infamous JTR.

He had to start somewhere...and although I personally ( without proof ) felt that Tabram may have been that starting point, the Smith murder as non-Ripper related may not have been so cut and dried.

True, the police knew more than we did in 1888. Yet they didn't solve that crime.

People often go into a state of shock in the midst of serious injury. Let me use myself as an example of that.

In 1984, when I was down in Alabama for three months, I helped this guy do some logging. We were in the midst of cutting down pretty tall pine/fir trees. It can be a dangerous gig.

We were just about to fell this one tree...when our calculation as to where it would land was off by about 5 feet I suppose. I turned around away from the tree ( Worst mistake one can make in logging...remember that ! ) and reached down to pick up my chain saw. The tree's top hit a hickory tree,which is not malleable as a fir tree, and the fir tree's trunk lifted upward and went back towards me....striking me in the lower back and "pushing" me in the air about 15 feet or so. I had a hematoma from my butt crack to my first vertabrae for 5 months afterwards.

After realizing I was knocked down,but not knocked out, I tried to rise and collapsed like a dishrag. The first words out of my mouth were "Mom, don't hit me again, I didn't touch that !!" I had gone into semi-conscious shock and actually thought that the guy who was with me for the whole ride to Druid City Hospital was my Mom. I hugged the door on the ride because I thought he was ( as my Mom ) gonna hit me "again". So you can see that people in states of shock can misjudge what transpired to get them into that condition.


Anyway....John Malcolm has inspired this month's Topic Of The Month. Thanks to John and those who pitched in here.

Tim...ber !!!!!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi How, John, Stan, Doug,
Its worth reminding ourselves that Emma Smith"s attack and subsequent death opened the files on the so called "Whitechapel Murders" -opened on 3/4 April 1888 and not closed until after the murder of Frances Coles.
I think Emma was a victim of whoever or whatever struck Whitechapel in 1888.First of all she was attacked on a Tuesday morning,in the early hours end of the[ Easter] Bank Holiday,almost exactly like Martha Tabram who was murdered in the early hours of Tuesday morning,which was just after another Bank Holiday[Ascension Day I think] in August.
Emma like Martha was middle aged,homeless-living in a "lodging house", fond of drink and had turned to prostitution to earn a living.
She was attacked in the heart of Whitechapel,Osborne Street , not far from either Hanbury Street or Bucks Row and had been seen there at 12.15 on April 3rd talking to a man in a white scarf.
Now Emma claimed that she was attacked by 3 men.Her face was cut and so was her ear in addition to suffering the ugly assault with the instrument which caused her death.
If she was indeed attacked by three men then it may be significant regarding the later murders.
Looking closely at the case of Martha Tabram, there were allegedly two men involved with her and her friend that night ,both dressed as soldiers.In fact one could well have been the "soldier" keeping watch, since a "soldier" was approached by PC Barrett wondering what he was doing hanging round George Yard at 2am.The man- dressed as a private of the Guards, informed him he was waiting for a man "who had gone away with a girl".Unfortunately the PC was unable to pick a correct man out in an identity parade in the Tower a day or so later.
So I wonder whether there could have been a couple or more men involved in these murders,- if so they were probably carefully planned and orchestrated with at least one of the assassins keeping watch.
After all, noone saw anyone attack Emma Smith and yet several police were on duty nearby, who said the night had passed quietly.
Best
Natalie

[Dougie]

John,Stan,Doug....


As one of those really obtuse thoughts that I get from time to time, I thought once that of the 4 that were involved, that it affected that one so much that he became our infamous JTR.

He had to start somewhere...and although I personally ( without proof ) felt that Tabram may have been that starting point, the Smith murder as non-Ripper related may not have been so cut and dried.

True, the police knew more than we did in 1888. Yet they didn't solve that
Tim...ber !!!!!
That is a VERY real possibility......a button was certainly pressed in the rippers mind at sometime,it could have been the event that unleashed his pent up desires. Interesting thought.

[Dougie]

John Malcolm,
Very nicely written piece,food for thought indeed!I want to think about this for a while....
regards

[Stan Reid]

Hi Natalie, Dougie and How;

Yes, the trigger thing was what I meant when I said "help getting up the courage". That only applies if Smith was telling it straight though.

In addition, Smith's account was second hand from her caregivers. It was not taken down directly from her by police. Apparently, they had no real reason to lie but that doesn't mean they remembered exactly what she said or knew what she meant nor did they question her thoroughly like police would.

I wonder about her going to her death protecting someone like Margery Wren did in her 1930 murder, perhaps because her attacker was a relative or something.

Stan

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Stan,
I have just checked and Emma did herself give an account of how she had got her injuries .An Inspector West wrote "she could not describe the men who had ill-used her but said there were three of them,and that she was attacked about 1.30 am on 3rd,while passing Whitechapel Church at the corner of Osborne Street -where she was actually attacked and which was also exactly where Polly Nichols was last seen alive by her friend Ellen Holland.It adds "whole of police on duty deny all knowledge of the occurrence" in other words no one saw any of these men or heard the attack.
Evans and Rumbelow state that is is highly unlikely she was "raped"-there was no evidence given of this but rather the language used at the time to describe her injuries gave rise to this assumption more recently.

[Stan Reid]

Hi Natalie,

I don't see that West got the account directly from Smith in any of the books I have. Supposedly the first police even heard of the attack was from the coroner two days after Emma's death unless I missed something.

Odd that she encountered no policeman (or apparently anyone) on the way back to her lodgings after the attack.

Stan

[John Malcolm]

Stan,
Back a few posts you mentioned that Tabram did not suffer an attack on her reproductive organs, but I think there is a good chance that she may have- if you look at the report of the inquest, via The Times, (and The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook, of course), Dr. Killeen mentions (specifically) 39 stab wounds, yet, if you add up all that he describes ("The left lung was penetrated in five places, etc.), it amounts to only 21...and if you add to that Swanson's report (again thank you Evans and Skinner), where he states "thirty nine wounds on body, neck, and private part...", I think it may be a reasonable conclusion that some particulars were deliberately withheld by Deputy Coroner Collier at the inquest. The remaining 18 wounds would then apparently have been made to the "neck and private part", right? Had it been Baxter presiding, maybe we would know more, but it is curious either way.

[Stan Reid]

Hi John,

I remember that there were stabs in that area but my assumption was that they might have been inadvertent because with 39 wounds you'd expect that no part of the body would be missed. In the case of Smith, the whole focus of the attack was there at least as far as any invasive wound was concerned.

Stan

[Natalie Severn]

Hi John,

I remember that there were stabs in that area but my assumption was that they might have been inadvertent because with 39 wounds you'd expect that no part of the body would be missed. In the case of Smith, the whole focus of the attack was there at least as far as any invasive wound was concerned.

Stan

Moreover we tend to forget there were two weapons used----perhaps by two men?

[Stan Reid]

Hi Natalie,

In this day at least, when there are two weapons and nothing else is known, the first assumption is two perpetrators. That didn't seem to be as big a consideration in 1888 from what I've read.

Stan

[Natalie Severn]

Thats what I would think too Stan. The fact is that the attack on Emma Smith in the early hours of a Tuesday morning following a Bank holiday was minutes from where Martha Tabram was murdered in the early hours of a Tuesday morning , following a Bank Holiday.Martha ,whose injuries appear to have been caused by two different weapons had been out with her friend and two men [dressed as soldiers]----and Emma claimed she was attacked by three men-and this was not more than 300 yards away.
This area just off Whitechapel High Street is also very close to Castle Alley where Alice MacKenzie was found.It is also very close to where Polly had been seen hanging round on the night of her murder.
So to my way of thinking ,this makes Emma"s attack one that was part of a cluster of killings that happened close to the Osborn St area of the Whitechapel Road.
I am glad you are looking at the circumstances of Emma"s attack ,because it does bear some similarities with the later killings which few people have looked into in the past few years.
Best
Natalie

[Celesta]

Hi Nats and Gang,

I just joined this forum a few minutes ago, so I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I have been wondering why more isn't made of the attack on Margaret Hames. Is this because she didn't die of her wounds? As a witness at Emma Smith's inquest, she stated she had seen Emma and the man with the white scarf and further added that she had been attacked late in the 1887. She spent two weeks recovering from this attack. The attack on her was similar to Emma's, so might the Whitechapel attacks be carried as far back as December 1887, in spite of the fact that Hames survived?

Take care, Natalie.

Celesta

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Celesta,
Nice to see you on here!
Yes, I knew about Margaret Hames and I think it very significant myself.Unfortunately I havent found out much else about her than what you have written.But lets keep looking eh!
Natalie

[Dan Norder]

Evans and Rumbelow state that is is highly unlikely she was "raped"-there was no evidence given of this but rather the language used at the time to describe her injuries gave rise to this assumption more recently.

This is just semantics (as is the original comment I suppose), but the action required to make the injury she was known to have suffered is called "rape by a foreign object." If there's some specific British legal definition of rape that doesn't apply unless the penetration is with a body part (general or specific) then perhaps what the authors mean, otherwise I don't follow the argument.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Dan,

According to the UK Home Office guidance on the Sexual Offences Act, rape is defined as "penetration by the penis of someone's vagina, anus or mouth without their consent" - it goes on to point out that rape can only therefore be committed by a male (at least in British Law).

There is a separate offence, "Assault by penetration", which relates to unconsented penetration of the vagina or anus by other means, i.e. penetration of vagina/anus using other parts of the body and/or foreign objects. This latter offence was introduced to the Act in 2003.

[Stan Reid]

Hi Sam,

A woman could still be convicted of rape as an accomplice under that law, I'd think. I keep thinking of The World According to Garp.:whistle:

Stan

[Robert Linford]

Polly was stabbed in her vagina. I can see Jack starting with Tabram and moving on from stabbing to ripping. But it's hard to visualise him as part of a gang.

[How Brown]

Robert:

How about someone "hanging on the edge" who took part in the Smith murder and on his own, set out to replicate the "fun" and "pleasure" he may have had in the Smith crime in the next murder?

One caveat to that would or might be the amount of time elapsed between the two murders ( April to August)...unless our boy was incarcerated for that period of time and had to wait until they sprung him.

[Celesta]

I can see him as part of a gang, but not necessarily a "cozy" member of one, if you get my drift. He was on the periphery. Whoever killed Emma wasn't many pegs down from JtR in being capable of committing such vicious crimes. If he was part of a gang, he could very well have given Emma the wound that caused her death. After that? He got on a roll.

[Robert Linford]

Hi How and Celesta

It's probably just a prejudice of mine, but I don't see Jack as being very socially-minded at all. He may, however, have been "set off" by reading or hearing about Smith.

Also, I've a feeling that once the reward offer appeared, some of the other gang members might have fingered him.

Robert

[How Brown]

Whoever killed Emma wasn't many pegs down from JtR in being capable of committing such vicious crimes. If he was part of a gang, he could very well have given Emma the wound that caused her death.-Cellie

Indeed he wasn't Cel.

However, it might be worthwhile to remember Nietzsche's maxim about how insanity ( acts of ) is usually found in groups of men, rather than in the individual.

Whoever killed Smith was undoubtedly inspired and encouraged by their numbers at the site ( read Gustave LeBon's "The Crowd" for group psychology...) and the chances are that only one of those who were present came up with the idea of the stick. The others merely followed.

Its this sort of perverse pleasure that one man...not necessarily Stickman...might have enjoyed to such an extent that he didn't want his compatriots to know how much he enjoyed that heinous act...and set off on his own. Just a thought.

[Dan Norder]

According to the UK Home Office guidance on the Sexual Offences Act, rape is defined as "penetration by the penis of someone's vagina, anus or mouth without their consent".

Alright, well, that explains Don and Stewart's comment then. I wonder how many of the people talking about Smith's rape were doing so from the American legal definition, or potentially some real world layperson definition separate from the legal terms. I'm also sure that some of the authors who said Smith was raped were thinking of British legal rape and were just incorrect. Gets a bit messy though sorting it all out.

[Celesta]

Hi How & Robert,

I can see it working both ways. I also see him as mostly a loner, but if he was a psychopath, he may have been skilled in manipulating people, as many of them are. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that he occasionally was on the periphery of a gang. Possibly, he urged them on, in the early stages, to assist in the attacks. In other words, he used them. As for him being the Stickman, I have no doubts about it. After the early attacks, he went solo.

It bothers me though, that he seems already accomplished by the time he gets to Polly. Where did he learn to kill so skillfully and so quietly?

Thanks for the recommendation on Lebon.

Take care.



Whoever killed Emma wasn't many pegs down from JtR in being capable of committing such vicious crimes. If he was part of a gang, he could very well have given Emma the wound that caused her death.-Cellie

Indeed he wasn't Cel.

However, it might be worthwhile to remember Nietzsche's maxim about how insanity ( acts of ) is usually found in groups of men, rather than in the individual.

Whoever killed Smith was undoubtedly inspired and encouraged by their numbers at the site ( read Gustave LeBon's "The Crowd" for group psychology...) and the chances are that only one of those who were present came up with the idea of the stick. The others merely followed.

Its this sort of perverse pleasure that one man...not necessarily Stickman...might have enjoyed to such an extent that he didn't want his compatriots to know how much he enjoyed that heinous act...and set off on his own. Just a thought.

[A.P. Wolf]

I think he just wandered by after the attack and thought 'Oh, I wonder what is in there?'
And had a look.

[Stan Reid]

120 years ago tonight - something to think about I'd say.

Stan

[John Malcolm]

Robert,
Very good point regarding the "stabs" to Polly's privates. And yes, it is hard to imagine him as part of a "gang", especially when one is thinking along the lines of "Anderson's Polish Jew". Regarding your next post, two more very good points to ponder.

How,
"Hanging on the edge" is another bit of food for thought. Also, it may have taken him some time to work up the nerve to set out on his own. It seems that a number of serial killers fantasized for some time before they grew the bag to act out.

Celesta,
(Re: post #1): Very well said, it has crossed my mind as well. (Re: post #2 and your question): He would have had several months to think about and prepare for the next step.

A.P.,
Another possibility; how lucky would he have been that night.

Stan,
It is every year...

[Celesta]

120 years ago tonight - something to think about I'd say.

Stan

Hi Stan,

Yes, I've been thinking about it, more than usual, because it's the same date as the birthday of someone close to me, and I guess because it's 120 years, an even date.

[A.P. Wolf]

A report in the 'Belfast News Letter' of April 9th 1888 contains a little more of Mary Russell's inquest testimony where she states that Emma Smith 'often came home with black eyes'; and that she had recently been 'thrown out of a window'; and that when drunk Emma 'acted like a mad woman'.
I hadn't seen this before.

[Natalie Severn]

Yes AP, Mrs Russell deputy keeper at the lodging house in George Street said that.
However Walter Dew claims that Emma Smith"s background "was something of a mystery......there was something about Emma which suggested that there had been a time when the comforts of life had not been denied her.There was a touch of culture in her speech"

[How Brown]

Dear Nats:

Thats a good point about Dew and what he mentions what he percieved in the intonation of Mrs. Smith's voice.

Its sort of hard to imagine anyone's voice not being affected by having a stick thrust up their private parts...but yet Dew remembers this.

Not that its not true, but I think you know what I mean,eh?

[Celesta]

She suffered a horrendous wound. Imagine trying to walk any distance at all with the peritoneum ripped. She said the attack occurred around 1:30 a.m.. It was not until around 4 a.m., give or take a few minutes, that she made it back to #18. I cannot imagine walking the distances she walked with such a horrible wound. How did she manage it? It would have taken her a long time. Why, in the time it took her to get back, did no one notice her, or no policeman spot her and lend assistance? Putting myself in her place and imagining the damage that had been done to her, I can't see how she made the walk to the lodging house and, later, to the hospital without giving out obvious signals that she was in deep distress. Yet no one saw her, after the attack, that we know of. Even if she saw a constable and didn't approach him, he should have taken notice and taken action. Unless the constables along her route were peculiarly unobservant, they ought to have spotted someone in pain, and even more so, when Russell and the other lady walked her to the hospital. That would be 3 ladies acting distressed.

I have seen the passage about the black eyes but never heard this about being thrown out of a window. It's good that new info keeps turning up on these cases.

Emma said her children ought to be doing something to help her. If she and her children were from a more cultured background, then perhaps the children were still a part of that cultured strata while she was on the streets. She was right. They should've helped her. Just MHO.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Celesta and How,
It is hard to understand why there wasnt any help forthcoming ,given that there were a fair number of police allocated to beats in the vicinity.One reason could be the very early hour,with few about to call for support.
Emma seems to have had a drink problem that led to her separation from her family.
Her cultured speech How, was discovered from discussions with those who had known her.
Best
Natalie

[Robert Linford]

Just in passing - and of no real relevance to the thread - there is a very unpleasant passage in "The Female Eunuch" where Greer quotes from a novel (can't remember which) in which a woman is beaten up and a broomstick "rammed up her snatch."

It is indeed rather amazing that such a monstrous attack should cause so little noise. I wonder how this might affect our views of the Kelly murder (one cry of "Murder" yet stabbed through the sheet?)

To what extent alcohol may have numbed the pain for Smith and Kelly, I cannot judge.

[Kim Ross]

Gday.
She definitely was not Jack's. Wrong MO and it was a gang as she herself said.

Cheers

[A.P. Wolf]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but is this not the exact place that Emma Smith was attacked?

'on 7th February, between seven and eight, I was in the Whitechapel Road, and about East Mount Street, opposite the Hospital Tavern, five men set about me; one of them came to my front—Humphreys put his hand under my overcoat and tried to get my gold albert and watch, at the same time I received a blow at the back of my head from Gibbs, who knocked me at the same time on my left leg and threw me forward violently on the ground—I got up and attempted to go after Humphreys—they had all gone away, but Humphreys, who had stolen my watch, had not got so far away as the others—before I had got two yards I was tripped up by Gibbs and thrown violently to the ground again;'

[Natalie Severn]

No AP .The exact Spot Emma Smith had turned into Osborne Street from the Whitechapel Road and gone some 300 yards from George Street.It was opposite 10 Brick Lane close to Taylor Bros., cocoa factory.It was quite a bit away from the spot you write of.But you are right about her walking along the Whitechapel Road when she was followed by three men.
Natalie

[Celesta]

Does anyone know anything about her background? I've seen nothing other than the particulars of her murder.

[Natalie Severn]

Does anyone know anything about her background? I've seen nothing other than the particulars of her murder.

Hi Celeste,
She was a mother of two grown up children ,she was aged 45, who had fallen on hard times at some point,probably through a drink problem.
There was something about her speech and manner which made people think she had known better times.

At the time of her murder she was living in a lodging house in George Street-300 yards from where she told her friends she was attacked.
Margaret Hayes,a fellow lodger at George Street, had seen her chatting to a respectable looking young man dressed in a dark suit and wearing a white scarf.But this was at the other end of town,in Mile End ,at 12.15 am.
No one saw any of her attackers----ie if she was indeed attacked by a gang.There were several police on duty,none saw this "gang" anywhere about.
She managed to get home between 4 and 5 am.
Best
Natalie

[Celesta]

Hi Natalie,

Thanks. I'm familiar with her history surrounding the time around the attack. I was wondering if anyone had investigated who she was prior to being on the streets. I noticed that Sugden didn't go into as much detail on Emma as for the other women, though he provides a nice profile on the JtR victims.

Do you have some reason to doubt she met a gang? 300 yds from the lodging house, and it took her over 3 hours to get back there? It has me wondering, as prior posts illustrate.

Blessings,

Celesta

[Natalie Severn]

hi Celesta,
I think its because Emma is reported to have been evasive when questioned.She didnt seem to give descriptions of any kind,and seemed to have avoided asking for police help at any point.This can probably be explained because of her soliciting etc .Most authors claim doubt about her account of a gang attacking her,they dont say she definitely wasnt attacked by a gang but rather that there seems to be doubt.
Best
Natalie

[Celesta]

Thanks, Nats. As always, I appreciate your guidance. I've been compiling information on Emma, so I will investigate the notion that there was not a gang. I'm interested to know what the theories are.

Blessings,

Celesta

[A.P. Wolf]

I've found this case from 1881 which does appear very familiar to the circumstances of Smith's attack in April 1888.
The Old Bailey felt it unfit for publication, but 'The Times' carried some detail:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/emma20smith1.jpg

[Dan Norder]

Very interesting find, AP.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Dan.
As you will have observed, the victim died some time later in the Infirmary from peritonitis... unlikely to have been brought about by rape, which seems to be the implication of this 1881 incident, therefore it seems this poor woman may well have been dealt with by this gang of roughs as was Emma Smith.

[Debra Arif]

Yes, very interesting, AP.
It may be well worth checking out some of the names of the gang mentioned.

[A.P. Wolf]

I've been doing that, Debs.
The inquest itself doesn't give much more information about the type of injuries Agnes Jaques suffered that night. On her admission to the Infirmary she is described as having her clothing torn and bloody, with injuries to her face, arms and legs, but having 'more serious injuries' from which she died.
A Joseph Cowley turns up later in 1883 in the employ of General William Booth - probably one of his many bully boys - which does give one pause for thought; but it is the George Vickery who turns up in 1887, Trooper in the Royal Horse Guards, keeping the company of 'disorderly women', for making quite a savage assault on a police constable, that I find of great interest.
If that was the very same George Vickery from 1881 then we have a very savage man on our hands who could well have helped carry out the savage assaults on Smith and Tabram, when not more besides.

[Debra Arif]

Interesting, AP.

The inquest reports were very coy about what happened in this case weren't they? In stark contrast to the reporting of the Whitechapel cases 7 years later.
I noticed the boys faced 3 separate charges, wilful murder (which was dropped) assault and actual bodily harm, and a third indictment that you mentioned, indecent assault. Some papers describe a 'gross outrage' being perpetrated, so I think you are right in that it was a similar attack to the one on Emma Smith.

Joseph cowley and Arthur Prestridge were both married men with families by 1891 and living in Streatham, I'll take a look for your George Vickery.

[Debra Arif]

AP,there is a George Vickery in 1891, a private, but at 20, he is too young to be the 1881 Vickery, I have no idea if he is the 1887 one you mentioned though.

I wonder if the George Vickery involved in the indecent assault case in 1881 is the same boy sent to Feltham Industrial school in 1877 for pulling the tail off a calf in a field in Hounslow, he seems to be the only near match on the 1881 census. His mother couldn't cope with him and his father was serving a sentence of penal servitude at the time. There doesn't seem to be any later mentions of crime or violence associated with a George Vickery apart from the one you noted, AP.

[A.P. Wolf]

Debs, thanks for that.
Are you sure it is '20' in 1891, and not '26'?
Because that would fit perfectly. For the George Vickery of 1881 - the assault on Agnes Jaques - was 16 at the time, so at the time of the assault on the policeman he would have been 22, and hence 26 in 1891.
A slip of the pen perhaps?

Interesting that mere boys were carrying out such murderous assaults on older women in the LVP.

[Debra Arif]

AP, the age would more or less fit, but the regiment or location doesn't seem to.

Apart from the age of the boys being interesting, being able to have named young gang members, involved in a similar attack as the one on Emma Smith ( a young gang as I believe), who's criminal careers can be 'sort of' plotted after such an attack is valuable?...did it have an influence on the rest of their lives, could a gang member involved in such an attack get something from it that he felt the need to repeat solo?...

[A.P. Wolf]

I stumbled across this report from the Chicago Tribune of September 2nd 1888, it gives the most graphic detail of the attack on Smith I've seen yet.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/chicago.jpg

[How Brown]

Dear A.P.

I believe you mean that the article describes Nichols' murder ( the alleged screaming and alleged aural witnesses and allegedly being found on the next street) rather than Smith's ,which mentions a stick being forced through her body ( her vagina).

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks How
but I did mean Smith, for most reports do not actually mention the 'stick', being entirely vague instead. But you are right, the report of Nicholl's death is as graphic; and the linkage to Tabram seems to be commonly accepted.

[Natalie Severn]

This report does indeed draw together these three murders and gives the impression that such horrific behaviour was extraordinary for Whitechapel. I have always been mindful that the murderous assault on Emma Smith took place in the early hours of the Tuesday following Easter Bank Holiday 1888 and the murder of Martha Tabram was also in the early hours of the Tuesday immediately following the August Bank Holiday 1888.
Emma Smith sounds in this report to have quite possibly been the unfortunate victim of a perverse client"s twisted game .Emma could have tried to cover the fact she was a prostitute by claiming she was the victim of a street attack by a gang,rather than admit to being a prostitute .It seems strange she walked in such a condition for over half a mile to the hospital without any record that either she or the friends who helped her passed or spoke to a beat policeman and neither did the beat police where she claimed the assault took place hear or see anything of such an assault or see any "gang".

[Stan Reid]

I've suspected that Emma fabricated the story because she was protecting her assailant for some unknown reason. Perhaps he was a relative who she didn't want to go to prison or hang for instance. It's at least a reasonable possibility I think. There are examples of such things in other crimes. Her story doesn't add up very well as is. Excuse me for repeating myself.

[How Brown]

Natalie:

Thats a good point in regard to the possibility that Smith only claimed to be attacked by more than one man. I had some ideas along that line myself before. Maybe she was more concerned with her dignity than telling the whole truth.

Imagine that Smith was attacked by just one man. If that were true, then she would probably had to have been in a position with her backside facing him for the thrust of the stick and in a trusting frame of mind. I can't see a lone assailant being able to force his way into her vagina with anything without a great deal of difficulty.

However, two men or even more could do such a heinous thing.

Good thinkin' Nats.

[Natalie Severn]

Its interesting to know that you both think there was something not adding up,Stan and How.
I still think it was probably a client,maybe someone she knew[ie someone she had been with before] and things got out of hand and very nasty.As Stan says there have been similar cases reported.Of interest here is that the police opened their file on the Whitechapel murders with this murderous assault.To me this means they were taken aback by the ferocity of it-----and the unusualness of it,
Best

[How Brown]

Nats & Stan:

And you know what else? Its not as if the Press created the "murder skein" all on their own,is it? They had to get some encouragement or inside dope from the Police to establish the perception that there WAS a skein occurring. Smith's murder...on paper...looks very little like the Nichols murder for a couple of reasons ( 1. Smith was spared .. 2. Didn't have any mutilation,save the vaginal violation) and I am certain you two have others.

Its one of those "coincidences" that today I was reading "Scotland Yard Investigates" at work ( when I should have been working) and came across the section which describes an attack on a woman by a well dressed man who coerced her close to Bucks Row and accosted her there along with a "gang of bullies". The article was in the East London Advertiser,Sept. 8th,1888...which also reported on Nichols funeral.

So...unless this excerpt from the Advertiser is based on bollocks, its possible that there were some active gangs engaged in shakedowns and that one or more of the gangsters committed the Smith murder.

The reason I placed this information here is to demonstrate that the Smith assault and death...and the assault on the woman by the gang and the well dressed man who orchestrated the shakedown....doesn't get a fraction of the ink regarding a "skein" by a "fiend" as did the Leather Apron scare when the Police were obviously aware of at least one murder and a shakedown which could have resulted in murder in and around the same vicinity....all in the same year.

If, as we are led to believe, Smith's statement before she died AND the information within the article covering Nichols' funeral was believed by the Police...and they apparently believed it...then its unusual that a similar warning wasn't given to the populace as to active gangs to the degree that the "Fiend" message or warning was issued in hindsight.

By the way, in SYI, its mentioned that it was possibly a stick thrust into Mrs. Smith on page 49. I believe that A.P. Wolf, that intrepid bon vivant, has just provided a clipping which mentions a stick here on the Forums.

Back to you folks.

[Stan Reid]

There are a lot of dissimilarities with the C5s but a similarity is the focus on the genital region where time permitted.

I think I read somewhere that the weapon might have been a cane. In Ripper section of THE BOOK OF LISTS, it says it was a "sharp spike" which doesn't sound blunt to me.

[Natalie Severn]

How and Stan,
Emma Smith like the all the victims except Mary Kelly was in her forties, had been earning her doss money from prostitution and was fond of the bottle.These similarities could be significant,as could the fact that it was her "lower body" that was targeted.
You are quite right How,that a case was reported soon after the Bucks Row murder of Polly Nichols involving a well dressed man who followed a woman who had been to a Music Hall in Cambridge Heath Road and decoyed her into the clutches of a gang in waiting ,who stole her necklace and other jewelry and knocked her about.
Emma too was seen talking to a man in "dark dress" with a white scarf, some way from her lodging house and the area where she said she was attacked.The curious thing about her attack though is that there were no witnesses though there were beat police on duty who neither saw nor heard it or saw any gang around the area.
So we have a witness who saw Emma talking to a man the night she was murdered--but this man was never looked for , because Emma herself gave her doctor a [false?] account involving a gang--who nobody saw that night in the area she spoke of and nobody witnessed the attack itself.Neither was there any attempt by the friends who supported her to the hospital to report the incident to a policeman .
What I suspect is that Emma knew all about the presence of "gangs" in the East End who robbed women and assaulted them,and she possibly used that knowledge to put the doctor off the scent.Also she probably didnt realise at that point that her injuries were life threatening,as she was still conscious and able to talk,and she may have feared a further attack if she was found to have fingered such a violent client.

[Pilgrim]

Wolfgang Abel, twenty seven at the time of his trial, was the son of a former managing director of a leading West German insurance company who had settled in Verona's suburb of Monte Ricco, 'Mountain of the Rich'. Twenty six year-old Mario Furlan lived with his parents in a new suburban development close to Verona's main hospital where his father was a well-known plastic surgeon and head of the burns unit. The boys had been close friends since school, and at university both were credited as being highly intelligent, if a little weird. According to the indictment at their trial, Furlan and Abel launched their part time career in murder by burning alive a gypsy drug addict in his car in August 1977. The victim survived his ordeal just long enough to say that he thought that in this instance there was a third man involved in the attack.

Then they went to Padua, where they knifed a casino employee and a waiter to death. They escalated their brutality by using an axe on a prostitute and a hammer on two priests (one suffered 26 blows) before they returned to their initial MO by burning alive a hitchhiker who was sleeping in Verona's city center. But these were all rather traditional compared to what they did next. A homosexual priest became a victim when they hammered a nail into his forehead. Then they attached a wooden cross to a chisel and pushed this into the man's skull as well.

At almost every scene, starting in 1980, they left notes that explained the reason for the murders. Laura Coricelli, who covered the case for an Italian newspaper, wrote that they sent these pamphlets to newspapers as well, claiming they had murdered three store clerks. Apparently these two viewed themselves as the last surviving Nazis, and their victims were among those who had "betrayed the true God" - mostly homosexuals and prostitutes, society's "inferior people." The notes were all attributed to "Ludwig."

Killing individuals apparently failed to satisfy their appetites, so "the Ludwig band" burned down a building in Milan that housed a cinema that showed pornographic films, and six people died inside. Next they set a fire in a discotheque, killing a woman and injuring forty more people. On 3 March 1984, Abel and Furlan dressed in Pierrot costumes, were caught in the act of dousing carpets and furniture with petrol at a discotheque near Mantua. This time the dance floor was crowded with more than four hundred young people.

Arrested in March, 1984, they went to trial at the end of 1986. Abel was 27 and Furlan was 26. Furlan's handwriting was matched to one of the Ludwig notes, although he and Abel both denied having anything to do with the "Ludwig" killings or the hate pamphlets. In Abel's apartment, they found a book with the name "Ludwig Friar" highlighted in the text. Witnesses had also placed them at the cinema fire and near one of the murdered victims. Twenty-seven charges of murder were leveled against them, but they were found guilty of only 10. Because they were deemed partially insane, primarily because of suicide attempts in prison, both got a sentence of 30 years. However, after serving only three, they were allowed to live in "open custody," which meant they were moved into a village and required only to report to the police on a regular basis. Essentially they're free to do mostly what they please and they continue to maintain their innocence.

trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/partners / crimezzz.net/serialkillers

See also: Folie a deux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux)

[How Brown]

Good call,Pilgrim. I read this story before in Wilf Gregg's book on s.k.'s...

There's few absolutes in the WM and one of them isn't that only one man committed the crimes in 1888.

Thanks very much for putting this chilling story here for the community.:kiss:

[How Brown]

Would everyone here agree that its unlikely that Smith knew her attacker?

Considering she is not reported to have named anyone, does it not appear that its a case of a random murder by one or more men?

If Smith knew the real name or even the alias(es) of the man/men who attacked her, I for one would think she'd have provided one

If she didn't and there was more than one man, then this requires that two or three men were able to keep their mouths shut sharing the same secret. Long enough... at least to our knowledge.

Anyone else have some words on an almost overlooked victim in the WM skein?

[SirRobertAnderson]

If Smith knew the real name or even the alias(es) of the man/men who attacked her, I for one would think she'd have provided one



I think Natalie's answer that she may not have thought she was dying, and wanted to avoid fingering a gang she'd have to face once she recovered, makes sense. So I can see her clamming up.

However....it is ludicrous IMHO to assume Jack emerged full formed on the Nichols stage. So I am reluctant to dismiss an attack on a prostitute that involved damage to the genitalia.

[Ultra Violet]

Kinda longish ... being off the internet most of the time, I have
too much time to think things through. <g>

The Emma Smith case is kinda confusing and I tried to think that through based on the few facts

-Due to witness account she was at the corner Burdett Rd/ Farrant St around 12:15 am talking to a man.

- She said that at 1:30 she's been attacked at the intersection Bricklane, Old
Montague, Osborn and Wentworth

-She returns home to George street between 4-5 am.

What I think is weird with her story:

Nobody saw the attack, although there was supposedly a good police coverage of the area as well as a nightwatch man at the mill - but maybe the gang was lucky.

Then she gets home after hours. Now Mary Russell didn't mention that Emma Smith wasn't barely able to move. Actually, she noted the facial injuries, but Emma Smith had to tell her that she had suffered injuries to the genitals as well. She was coherent and pointed out where she was attacked.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure she was in pain, but not in as severe a pain as to be rendered close to incapable of moving (similar to for example Mary Ann Austin who was barely able to talk, had to be carried although in that case alcohol and/or drugs might have come into play).
But unless she's really crawling and maybe fainting in between, I can't see her need between 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 hours to get around the block from the intersection to George Street.
And there's no witness who mentions seeing a woman unconscious or crawling along Wentworth St. and I think is kinda odd. At least one or the other policeman on the beat should have seen her in that long period of time.

Well, or she got the time *entirely* wrong and arrived at the intersection much later than she thought.

If the attack on her had happened in Limehouse, well, in her state that sure would have taken her several hours staggering home. Yet, she would have been in a state making people probably think she was drunk, a very common site and therefore nothing noteworthy.

But wouldn't that mean she lied about the location? For what reason?
And couldn't she have lied about the gang, too? She would have gotten the cue from Margaret Hayes who said how she had been roughed up by a gang just before Christmas.

This "man luring victims for a gang" scenario is a bit difficult to work in, too. He talks to her in Limehouse and lures her all the way to Spitalsfield. Why not search a victim closer in the area?
And the music hall lady is another victim type, too, with her jewelry.

I already had thought about possible scenarios, but now that I read about that "man & gang" scenario I tried to come up with an additional one.
All scenarios involve the fact that she had no idea that she had been fatally injured. (Btw. - I don't even think the attacker was aware of the fact, that he was killing her with what he did)

1. The story happened like she told it. She was in Limehouse, the gang spotted her, followed her and attacked her at the intersection in Spitalsfield. They weren't doing it for the money but they thought it was a fun thing to do. It was just very bad luck for her that no one witnessed either her attack nor her torturous way back home.

2. Same as above but Emma Smith was totally mistake about the time.

3. The man was luring victims for the gang working in Limehouse. She lied about the location because they warned her not to rat on them.
The fact that Hayes stated she tried to get away from the area as fast as possible because she had just been hit in the face by some young guys, would speak for the gang scenarios.

4. She was attacked by a person she knew, a violent male friend, a pimp. Hayes or Austin (I don't quite recall) said that Emma Smith repeatedly returned home with a black eye. She wouldn't want him to get into trouble (battered wifes usually deny or search excuses for their abusers's behavior) and made up the story of the gang.

5. Same with a twist ... the guy she knew was involved with that gang. So she would mention a gang but claiming she didn't know one of them and giving a wrong location to avoid her friend/pimp getting in trouble.

6. She was attacked by a violent client and lied because she wouldn't want to get into trouble for prostituting herself or because she was - as already proposed - very frightened of him.

Well, there might be more options I haven't thought of yet.

What I think is weird about that case, but admittedly this may be just a creepy coincidence, it links two further locations where women where attacked:
Ada Wilson at her place on Maidman Street off Burdett Rd and Martha Tabram in George Yard Buildings.

(If there are any comments, it might take me a while before I'm on the forum again and I can answer)

[Stan Reid]

Then we have to ask: Was her attacker the Ripper or not or was the gang story true and was one of the gang's members a nascent JtR or not?

A couple of other remote possibilities:

She was delusional and didn't even know what really happened.

She thought she was pregnant and went for an abortion where the fatal injury occurred and was covering up the fact that she was involved in this illegal act to protect herself from future prosecution since she assumed that she was going to survive. How's that for a sentence?:tape:

[Ultra Violet]

Then we have to ask: Was her attacker the Ripper or not or was the gang story true and was one of the gang's members a nascent JtR or not?
As a single attacker I could imagine JtR at work if they knew each. He would probably not attack her like victims he didn't know as well (<-- assumption) but still might treat her violent. Bundy tried to "get back" on an emotional level at a former girlfriend who had dumped him.

She thought she was pregnant and went for an abortion ...
If she went to a quack, that quack should be nominated for a clueless award. There were no signs that she was pregnant and to perform an abortion with a blunt object is a weird idea to say the least.
I could see her though turning to a friend and ask him or her for help. And they came up with that idea - similar to women jumping down flights of stairs or hitting their stomachs etc. hoping to provoke a miscarriage that way.

How's that for a sentence?:tape:
:faint:
(And I snipped it! Shame on me!)

[How Brown]

Can't recall reading that comment made in regard to Emma Smith before....

Manchester Times
Saturday, April 14, 1888
*******************
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/Forums%20March%202010/June%202010/out.jpg

[Debra Arif]

That's a new one on me too, How.
While I remember, I read an account a while back that a woman was waiting for her husband on Whitechapel Road (I thought somewhere near where Emma says she was attacked) when a group of men approached her and began pushing her around, not knowing her husband was close by. He managed to rescue her from the situation. I think it was sometime near the attack on Emma Smith too, although the details are a bit vague now to be honest. Have you come across anything like this at all How, in your recent 'Whitechapel' searches?
I'd like to see it again but can't find it now for some reason. :(

[How Brown]

Debs:

Sorry for the slow reply...takin' a nap over here.

I vaguely remember something along those lines about a woman's husband coing to the wife's rescue. I'll go look for it.

[How Brown]

Debs:

While I look for that, look at this one from 1890 :

Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper
Sunday, September 21, 1890
*********************
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/Forums%20March%202010/June%202010/bg1.jpghttp://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/Forums%20March%202010/June%202010/bg2.jpg

[How Brown]

The reference or remark about Emma Smith...as "acting like a madwoman"...is found on page 47 of Scotland Yard Investigates by SPE/Rumbelow.

Debs...the scenario you refer to is also in SYI. Its from the East London Advertiser of September 8th...and found on pages 62-63.

I believe I've read that excerpt...about someone from the gang exclaiming to the accosted couple...."we'll do you in like we did the others"... in another newspaper...

That the alleged comment included the word "others" and not "other woman" is enough to keep ya up at night for awhile.

[How Brown]

By the way since I was in a rush this morning....the East London Advertiser article appeared on the day of Chapman's murder.

The harrowing story of the woman and her manfriend being assaulted by a gang after they left Cambridge Road occurred after Nichols murder and before Chapman's murder. I thought I had noted that...but, oh well.

[Debra Arif]

Debs...the scenario you refer to is also in SYI. Its from the East London Advertiser of September 8th...and found on pages 62-63.

I believe I've read that excerpt...about someone from the gang exclaiming to the accosted couple...."we'll do you in like we did the others"... in another newspaper...

That the alleged comment included the word "others" and not "other woman" is enough to keep ya up at night for awhile.

How, that wasn't the one I was thinking of. I just did another quick check after you posted this and found the one I'd previously read but the case was from 1885 and not later like I had thought.

It involved Sarah Cohen, a respectable married woman being assaulted by two men she didn't know. The things that must have made this assault stick in my mind were because it occured on Brick Lane (wasn't Emma attacked opposite #10 Brick Lane) and that a stick was used in the assault, although not in the way it was used on Emma Smith. The woman's husband came to her rescue.

Looking at it again now the description of the assault on Sarah Cohen seems more similar to the attack on Emily Horsenail in 1887 going by the injuries, kicks to the stomach etc., Emily told people she had been beaten by some men she didn't know as well, although she didn't say where.

[How Brown]

Debs:

That might explain what the gang allegedly stated to the woman leaving Forester's Music Hall in early September 1888...."...."we'll do you in like we did the others"...

Cohen, in 1885, and Horsenail in 1887...may have been those "others".

Nice going Debs.

[Debra Arif]

Debs:

That might explain what the gang allegedly stated to the woman leaving Forester's Music Hall in early September 1888...."...."we'll do you in like we did the others"...

Cohen, in 1885, and Horsenail in 1887...may have been those "others".

Nice going Debs.

Thanks How, that's a possibility. There were probably a few incidents like these that went unreported too.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Debs and How,
Emma Smith has always interested me a lot since it was because of her murder that the police opened the Whitechapel Murder File.Her killing,like Martha Tabram"s happened as a Bank Holiday came to an end---in Emma"s case Easter Monday had just been and gone.
Then there was the testimony of her friend who lived on the same street, George street ,Spitalfields ,Margaret Hames or Hayes and she said she last saw Emma talking to a man in dark clothes and wearing a white scarf on the corner of Burdett Road and Farrance Street close to the junction between West India Dock Road and East India Dock Road.

When Emma spoke to the doctor at the hospital she gave false details of herself-saying she was widowed and that she worked as a cleaner.Because she had been creating scenes in the Lodging house,arriving home the worse for drink and bruised and with black eyes,the lodging house deputy had given her some kind of warning and I often wondered if Emma said she had been attacked by a "gang" to cover up the fact she had been out in Limehouse soliciting?The police could find no evidence of the attack and hadnt seen or heard anything of it so it makes you wonder---and if there was no gang was this in fact one of the first ripper murders?
Cheers Debs and How,
Norma

[How Brown]

Dear Nats:

Hope you're beating the heat this July. Its been moider over here.

"Emma Smith has always interested me a lot since it was because of her murder that the police opened the Whitechapel Murder File.Her killing,like Martha Tabram"s happened as a Bank Holiday came to an end---in Emma"s case Easter Monday had just been and gone."

Out of curiosity and not to be contentious in the least, was Smith's murder the catalyst for the creation of the WM Files...or did it take Tabram's and Nichols' murders to occur for a file which was then named the WM Files to appear ?

I would think the WM file was labeled as "The Whitechapel Murders" after Nichols murder. Perhaps SPE or Mr. B know.

In any event...I was thinking about Smith's murder recently...and it occurred to me that there would be one way for one person to do to her what was done to her, if you thought about it for a moment.

Without going into the gruesome detail, has anyone else ( maybe you have Nats, I don't know ) considered that way of how the stick entered her body ?

[How Brown]

Since one member of the Forums has asked me to describe what I meant... here it is :

I remember the film with Patrick Bergin entitled, The Ripper, from 1997. In this film, the killer, PAV, takes a prostitute into an alley.
She leans over a large barrel and lifts up her skirt.
As she is in that position,with her private parts exposed to him from the rear, the killer takes his sword and rams it into her vagina...with his hand over her mouth...and she of course dies. He twists the sabre for good measure.

The Smith story of the multiple-person assault has always troubled me because I can't see how it would have happened without her screaming her lungs off.

However, in the scenario lifted from the film, I could see that happening easily. That would require only one man to jam a stick into her.

I have this weird feeling that Smith may have wanted ( since she lived and could speak to someone,anyone, who came to her aid ) to downplay the events leading up the assault. She would get more sympathy ( maybe she assumed as much) if she said she was attacked by rowdy youths....rather than being the victim of a liason gone terribly wrong.



Anyone else ?

[Natalie Severn]

Phew Howard-----this is a rather lurid landscape to try to envisage !---but yes, I think you make a very good case.For example if this gang approached her in the street area where police were on regular patrol,not only would you expect there to have been screams or cries heard from the initial skirmish but surely too there would have been some evidence of blood and fibres on the pavement area,which we are told there wasn"t?In fact nobody saw anyone or heard anything at all.
Your "illustration" is also self explanatory;there are I think other such cases on record.A while back another researcher dug up information regarding Nigel Heath -I think the name is correct, and pointed out ,while agreeing that Heath was one ghastly character,that actually his first known victim,like poor Emma,was known to be someone who often sported bruises etc and it transpired that Heath and she were "on a date" , engaged in what was alleged to be just a peculiar "game" that had got way out of hand.That appears to have been his "excuse" but actually this man"s next victim was a young girl who wanted nothing to do with him and who he followed to her final destination.
So I would go along with that, while mindful of the research Debs ---and you ---have done suggesting other "gang"attacks in the same area.
Best
Norma

[SirRobertAnderson]

The police could find no evidence of the attack and hadnt seen or heard anything of it so it makes you wonder---and if there was no gang was this in fact one of the first ripper murders?
Cheers Debs and How,
Norma

I do think we have underrated Emma as a potential JtR victim.

One has to wonder if she thought she was going to pull through and so gave a "white(chappled)washed" version of events. If she knew she was done for perhaps she might have told the truth and we'd be looking at the Case in a very different way.

[How Brown]

Bob,Nats...

Not that what I speculated is possible to prove of course, but since there had been a couple of ( or more) instances which Debra Arif mentioned ( Cohen and Horsenail) of more than one assailant harassing a woman....this might have circulated in the neighborhood and became known to poor Mrs. Smith.
With that in mind,and the fact that her murder was included in the Whitechapel Murder files...which were all murders considered done by one man, if not all by the same man....it occurred to me that perhaps some police officials felt that it wasn't etched in stone that more than one man assaulted Smith.
It's hard to second guess someone who has had a stick rammed into an orifice and who dies as a result of that. Yet, no other murder in those files was considered attributable to more than one man.
I'll leave it at that in order for others to offer their views.

[SirRobertAnderson]

It's hard to second guess someone who has had a stick rammed into an orifice and who dies as a result of that.

As I said, I wonder if she realized she was dying and if not, offered a more respectable and sympathetic version of what actually happened.

We'll never know but in my heart of hearts I think the field has erred by trying to whittle down the C-5 instead of expanding it. Somehow it has become fashionable to discount victims instead of looking at somewhat similar cases and adding them to the body count.

I know this will be controversial to say, but in some ways I have always wondered if JtR was attacking women as sexual objects or just the easiest prey available. That would lead to discounting Emma (or my notion), because if that isn't a sex crime, I don't know what is.

[Debra Arif]

Hi How, Nats, Robert,
How, thanks for the explanation, you know, until you mentioned that, I hadn't actually thought about a scenario where this could have occured and only one man be involved. It does sound very plausible I'd have to agree, and certainly something that Emma may have wanted to cover up.

Regarding Emily Horsenail (I think it may be Horsnell actually) just to say that she died in the lodging house at 18 George Street Spitalfields after saying she had been attacked a few days previously be men she didn't know. She had been in bed in a bad way for a few days before her death but no actual post mortem was performed on her body. It was remarked upon at the time that if all the circumstances of her death had been known earlier, a post mortem would have been ordered and the death investigated, as it was Emily's death received no police inquiry. So although there is here another example of a woman claiming to have been attacked by a gang and subsequently dying, there is no way this could have appeared in the police files as it wasn't recorded as a murder.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi How and Bob,
Walter Dew wrote in his autobiography that "there was a touch of culture in her speech unusual in her class" and so I think its very possible Emma would have continued to try to "keep up appearances" of one kind or another even at death"s door,but most especially when being tended by a middle class doctor at the hospital.She would hardly have wanted to say to her doctor or anyone else maybe, that she had n"t actually been working as cleaner but had been on the game that night and had picked up a "respectable looking bloke" who turned out not to be one of her usual punters but a vicious nutter who had abused her,

Best
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Debs,our posts just crossed.Reading of Emily Horsnell there, of 18 George Street, I have to say this puts a whole new slant on things, because that makes three victims claiming similar attacks all of whom lived at 18 George Street [ Margaret Hayes,Emma Smith and Emma Horsnell---and Martha Tabram lived at 19 George Street I think].So we return here to this so called "gang" and I am now wondering who they could have been........
Cheers
Norma

[Debra Arif]

Hi Norma,
Emily actually lived at #19, my mistake in the post, sorry, but you have described exactly the reasons why I can't completely discount the gang theory as regards Emma, especially since there was no post mortem or investigation carried out on Emily in November 1887. We will never know the exact circumstances of what happened to her, other than she died of
peritonitis cause by severe injuries to her right side.

Emily was 24 and estranged from her husband, and had been living at the George Street lodging house for 3 or 4 years since her separation. The deceased was said to have acted as charwoman 'or anything' for a living.
She had been out drinking on the night of her attack.

[How Brown]

Would anyone, then or now, have considered that Smith's death might have been perpetrated by more than one man had she died prior to speaking to anyone ?

[Debra Arif]

Would anyone, then or now, have considered that Smith's death might have been perpetrated by more than one man had she died prior to speaking to anyone ?

Only if they were psychic?
The fact is she said it was more than one, whether that was a cover up or not is open to discussion and finding similar cases helps with the broader picture. I hope the 'gang' theory is not being targetted now because of a certain name mentioned in connection recently? I don't buy that certain theory at all.

[SirRobertAnderson]

I hope the 'gang' theory is not being targetted now because of a certain name mentioned in connection recently? I don't buy that certain theory at all.

I've missed that theory....but then again I miss a lot. Feel free to PM me if it is a politically sensitive subject. But I am curious.

Sounds to me like GSG has a whole new meaning: George Street Gang !

[SirRobertAnderson]

To all:
Since the Emma Smith attack was documentedly a group thing, the Ripper's MO (if he was indeed involved in this) would naturally have adapted to the group dynamic. Like Jeff Leahy said, we can't dismiss Emma Smith as a Ripper killing on the basis of the MO being slightly or even significantly different in a group situation.

Sorry, I'm an Occam's Razor adherent. We can drag Jack into the equation or we can look at the known facts. (Unless we also want to throw out Emma Smith's remarks about what happened to her, in which case all bets are off and we are free to project onto her case whatever we wish, just like the folks that see airplanes hanging from chandeliers in MJK's room.)

So......

Smith said

1) she was attacked by a gang
2) one assailant looked about 19
3) she was robbed

And we know that she was raped and a blunt instrument inserted with great force into her vagina, and left alive.

Doesn't this fit more with her having failed to pay protection money to a gang preying on prostitutes ? Or just a bunch of thugs on the prowl ? This case screams of punishment and an effort to degrade.

NONE of this sounds like Jack except perhaps the robbery although I would argue that what he did was simply take back the coins he had given the victims in the first place. These guys sound like they were angry Smith didn't pay them off.

I certainly agree with the notion that Tabram wasn't Jack's first attack on a woman. But even allowing for the theory that his crimes progressed in violence (which I also agree with) it's not a foundation to build on. In fact, I'd argue that Tabram and Nichols would represent somewhat less violent crimes than the assault on Smith which was beyond brutal. The attack on Smith was centered on her sex (rape and penetration) and terribly sadistic; these appear to be things that didn't hold much interest for Jack.

So other than her being a prostitute in Whitechapel I see zippo to tie her to Jack. I'd be careful about saddling Le Grand with her as it doesn't advance his candidacy as a serial killer so much as a thug. Millwood would hold more interest as would Wilson. (Wilson describing her assailant as blotchy faced always catches my eye....)

[Stan Reid]

I would say that the fact that the focus of the attack on Smith was her sex organs, which also seemed to be the case with the C5 assaults that weren't interrupted, keeps her on the potential list.

If she was being truthful about the gang, something you can choose to believe or not, that doesn't mean that one of the number wasn't Jack who got his taste of blood and then decided to carry on with a one man show. He would not be the only serial killer to take this path.

[Jeff Leahy]

Sorry, I'm an Occam's Razor adherent. We can drag Jack into the equation or we can look at the known facts. (Unless we also want to throw out Emma Smith's remarks about what happened to her, in which case all bets are off and we are free to project onto her case whatever we wish, just like the folks that see airplanes hanging from chandeliers in MJK's room.)

So......

Smith said

1) she was attacked by a gang
2) one assailant looked about 19
3) she was robbed

And we know that she was raped and a blunt instrument inserted with great force into her vagina, and left alive.

Doesn't this fit more with her having failed to pay protection money to a gang preying on prostitutes ? Or just a bunch of thugs on the prowl ? This case screams of punishment and an effort to degrade.

NONE of this sounds like Jack except perhaps the robbery although I would argue that what he did was simply take back the coins he had given the victims in the first place. These guys sound like they were angry Smith didn't pay them off.

I certainly agree with the notion that Tabram wasn't Jack's first attack on a woman. But even allowing for the theory that his crimes progressed in violence (which I also agree with) it's not a foundation to build on. In fact, I'd argue that Tabram and Nichols would represent somewhat less violent crimes than the assault on Smith which was beyond brutal. The attack on Smith was centered on her sex (rape and penetration) and terribly sadistic; these appear to be things that didn't hold much interest for Jack.

So other than her being a prostitute in Whitechapel I see zippo to tie her to Jack. I'd be careful about saddling Le Grand with her as it doesn't advance his candidacy as a serial killer so much as a thug. Millwood would hold more interest as would Wilson. (Wilson describing her assailant as blotchy faced always catches my eye....)

Harriot Lilly claimed she heard moans followed by whispering...and a Times report says Nichols may have been robbed.

Then Annie Chapman appears to have have rings from her finger stollen.

Some similarities possibly?

Yours Jeff

[SirRobertAnderson]

Link to the Casebook Wiki entry for Smith.

Let me know if there are additions folks want to make. Remember to the extent possible we aim to maintain an editorially neutral point of view.

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Emma_Elizabeth_Smith

[SirRobertAnderson]

I would say that the fact that the focus of the attack on Smith was her sex organs, which also seemed to be the case with the C5 assaults that weren't interrupted, keeps her on the potential list.

I am not sure I would describe Jack's attacks as focused on the sex organs; Smith's attack certainly was and in such a fashion as to suggest a message was being sent to other women in the area. Pay up or else.

All conjecture of course but a closer fit to the "facts" as we have them.

[SPE]

I see that the myth that she was raped persists.

She was outraged by having a 'blunt instrument' thrust up her 'passage'. The myth started when a modern writer believed that 'outraged' was a Victorian euphemism for rape. It was not.

[SirRobertAnderson]

I see that the myth that she was raped persists.

She was outraged by having a 'blunt instrument' thrust up her 'passage'. The myth started when a modern writer believed that 'outraged' was a Victorian euphemism for rape. It was not.

Thank you for the clarification.

[SPE]

Although the official file on Emma Smith went missing many years ago, we do have a copy of Inspector Reid's report on the murder. This was transcribed by Don Rumbelow from the original which he saw in the 1970s.

Inspector Reid wrote, 'The peritoneum had been penetrated by a blunt instrument thrust up the woman's passage, and peritonitis set in which caused death.' Inspector Reid's full report appears in the Ultimate. The word 'outraged' does not appear in the police report but was used in newspapers. The 1887 dictionary definition of outraged is shown below.

Some newspapers, on occasion, might have used the word 'outraged' when a woman was raped, but I haven't checked. Many sexual assaults were referred to in this way but the word was not a euphemism for rape.

9891

[Debra Arif]

Inspector Reid wrote, 'The peritoneum had been penetrated by a blunt instrument thrust up the woman's passage, and peritonitis set in which caused death.'

Thanks for this, Stewart. I notice that Reid mentioned the 'peritoneum' had been penetrated, which is in the abdominal cavity I believe? I have read a few posts where people have suggested that Emma's 'perineum' was torn. Does this appear in Reid's, or any other account? Or is this just a confusion with peritoneum and perineum?

[SirRobertAnderson]

I have read a few posts where people have suggested that Emma's 'perineum' was torn. Does this appear in Reid's, or any other account? Or is this just a confusion with peritoneum and perineum?

Did I do that ? If so, an error. :banghead:

[Maria Birbili]

Thanks for this, Stewart. I notice that Reid mentioned the 'peritoneum' had been penetrated, which is in the abdominal cavity I believe? I have read a few posts where people have suggested that Emma's 'perineum' was torn. Does this appear in Reid's, or any other account? Or is this just a confusion with peritoneum and perineum?
Hmmm, that would be an interesting detail to clear out, as a tearing of the “peritoneum“ would approach the Emma Smith case to the “C5“ (if I might be allowed in using that tired term).
This is from Lloyd's Weekly of April 8, 1888, reporting about the inquest (quoted
hastily from casebook, not from the original newspaper):
“Dr. Hellier [Haslip] (the house-surgeon on duty) described the internal injuries which had been caused and which must have been inflicted by a blunt instrument. It had even penetrated the peritoneum, producing peritonitis, which was undoubtedly the cause of death, in his opinion. {...} He had made a post-mortem examination, and described the organs as generally normal. He had no doubt that death was caused by the injuries to the perinaeum, the abdomen, and the peritoneum. Great force must have been used. The injuries had set up peritonitis, which resulted in death on the following day after admission.“
The way I'm reading this, both the perineum and the peritoneum might have been cut.

PS.: Anyone knows of the exact location of the Emma Smith attack vs. the London City Hotel on Osborne Street?

[SPE]

Inspector Reid definitely uses the word 'peritoneum' (the double serus membrane lining the cavity of the abdomen), and 'penetrated' which agrees with the report of what the house surgeon said. There is no mention of the 'perineum' (the area of skin between the anus and the vulva), although this could have been torn also (as it often is in childbirth), although I should have thought that it would have been mentioned.

[SPE]

I know that some have proposed Emma Smith as a Ripper victim but, in my opinion, she certainly was not.

Those who would add her to the Ripper's tally have to overcome the fact that she stated that she had been assaulted by three men who had robbed her. Theorists usually overcome this problem by making the claim that she must have been lying which, I believe, is 'wangling' the facts.

Also, a friend of hers, Margaret Hames, had been similarly assaulted and robbed in the same area in December 1887 and spent three weeks in the infirmary, being released two days after Boxing Day.

[Debra Arif]

Also, a friend of hers, Margaret Hames, had been similarly assaulted and robbed in the same area in December 1887 and spent three weeks in the infirmary, being released two days after Boxing Day.

And also Emily Horsenail, who died in agony at 19 George Street in late 1887. Death was from peritonitis, caused by 'some men she didn't know' attacking and kicking her while she was out on the streets late at night a few days before.

Robert, it wasn't you, no.
Thanks for the answers about the perineum being damaged, everyone.

[Maria Birbili]

Thank you so much for the Emily Horsenail info, Debs.

[Cris Malone]

From Lloyd's Weekly, April 8, 1888 report on the Smith inquest:

'Dr. Hellier, described the internal injuries which had been caused, and which must have been inflicted by a blunt instrument. It had even penetrated the peritoneum, producing peritonitis, which was undoubtedly the cause of death, in his opinion. The woman appeared to know what she was about, but she had probably had some drink. Her statement to the surgeon as to the circumstances was similar to that already given in evidence. He had made a post- mortem examination, and described the organs as generally normal. He had no doubt that death was caused by the injuries to the perineum, the abdomen, and the peritoneum.'

Newspaper Archives

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks, Cris. I was beginning to think I was going crazy. I knew I had read that somewhere. The doctor said 'great force' was used to cause these injuries. I wonder how much force must have been used to inflict this damage? Are these things that could happen on accident, or would the perpetrator have had to have been in a rage and wanting to inflict serious damage or death?

Regarding Emily Horsenail. How come she hasn't been suggested as a possible 'Fairy Fay'?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Maria Birbili]

Cris and I posted the exact same newspaper report in our posts #118 and #123.

The injuries on Emma Smith were most clearly intentional, not an “accident“.

Has anynone read Chris George‘s The strange career of Terence Robertson and the origin of “Fairy Fay“, in Ripperologist #73, November 2006? Also, what about the idea that “Fairy Fay“ was probably a conglomeration based on Lillie Herbert and Margaret Hames/Haynes, the latter being Emma Smith's friend and neighbor?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. I'm just trying to gauge in my mind how much force Smith's killer would have needed to use to inflict the damage he did. As for 'Fair Fay', everyone knows the Hames theory, but I'm drawing a blank on the George piece. Thankfully, 73 is a e-zine issue, so I should have it here on my laptop.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[SPE]

...
Regarding Emily Horsenail. How come she hasn't been suggested as a possible 'Fairy Fay'?
Tom Wescott

Probably because she does not fit the bill for the December 1887 attack, unlike Hames.

Horsnail was aged 24 and was living at the common lodging house at 19 George Street, where she had been living for over three years. She was found in bed, apparently dead, on 10 November 1887. She was seen the night before in the corner of the room doubled up. She said that she had been kicked about the abdomen by some men who she didn't know. The doctor who examined her found severe bruising down her right side caused by blows or kicks. Her stomach was 'enormously' distended, probably caused by peritonitis or inflammation of the intestines. She had apparently been ill for days. The inquest was held on Saturday 12 November 1887 and an open verdict was returned.

[Jeff Leahy]

Probably because she does not fit the bill for the December 1887 attack, unlike Hames.

Horsnail was aged 24 and was living at the common lodging house at 19 George Street, where she had been living for over three years. She was found in bed, apparently dead, on 10 November 1887. She was seen the night before in the corner of the room doubled up. She said that she had been kicked about the abdomen by some men who she didn't know. The doctor who examined her found severe bruising down her right side caused by blows or kicks. Her stomach was 'enormously' distended, caused by peritonitis or inflammation of the intestines. She had apparently been ill for days. The inquest was held on Saturday 12 November 1887 and an open verdict was returned.

Most interesting thank for this Guys, I;d not heard this case before

YOurs Jeff

[Debra Arif]

The inquest was held on Saturday 12 November 1887 and an open verdict was returned.

But as I mentioned back in 2008 when I originally posted this account, the Coroner mentioned at the inquest that there probably should have been a post mortem on Emily, had the the full circumstances of the death been known when she was found, and some police inquiries made.

[SPE]

But as I mentioned back in 2008 when I originally posted this account, the Coroner mentioned at the inquest that there probably should have been a post mortem on Emily, had the the full circumstances of the death been known when she was found, and some police inquiries made.

There is absolutely no doubt that there should have been a post mortem, and I'm surprised that one wasn't ordered.

I am not sure how Dr. Dukes could have been allowed to say that the distended condition of the abdomen was probably a result of the condition given when a post mortem should have settled the matter. The coroner must be in the wrong for not adjourning for the autopsy to be carried out, but having decided that there would be no clue as to the offenders in the case and, presumably, an unsolved murder verdict being undesirable, the jury were left with no option other than returning an open verdict.

However, all of the foregoing said, and even if it was murder, there is no way that it meets the requirements for the alleged unsolved murder around Boxing Day 1887 as well as the case of Hames, confused with that of Emma Smith, does.

[Debra Arif]

However, all of the foregoing said, and even if it was murder, there is no way that it meets the requirements for the alleged unsolved murder around Boxing Day 1887 as well as the case of Hames, confused with that of Emma Smith, does.

Oh, absolutely. I agree.
I was just mentioning the coroner's remarks to explain why Emily's case is not down in the files as a murder.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Stewart and Debs, thanks for the details on Horsenail. Like Jeff, I was not aware of this case before.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Nemo]

Just thought I'd throw William Grainger into the mix as hooligans are relevant to his case and he's the one person we know who carried out a similar act with a knife, likely to have caused serious internal injury a la Emma Smith

[Maria Birbili]

Thanks to Debra Arif and SPE for making us aware of the Horsenail case.

Hi Maria. I'm just trying to gauge in my mind how much force Smith's killer would have needed to use to inflict the damage he did.
I would say not too much force, Tom, depending on the knife/“blunt instrument“ used. I wanna bet the knife used at the Smith attack didn't look anything like the Thomas Coram knife.

If you find the Chris George article on your comp, could I have it too? I hope to go look at the Le Grand convictions at the Archives de Paris tomorrow, I'm late taking care of this due to having needed to deal with some other (stressful) sh*t.

[SirRobertAnderson]

I would say not too much force, Tom, depending on the knife/“blunt instrument“ used. I wanna bet the knife used at the Smith attack didn't look anything like the Thomas Coram knife.

Where did a knife come into the equation here ? And why put " " around blunt instrument ?

[George Lorton]

All,
I think it was a gang who attacked Smith. I've read the entire topic and while I think it could be possible that Emma could of clammed up or lied the Emily Horsnell and Margaret Hayes attacks make it pretty obvious that there was a gang doing a protection racket on the streets of East London. I also agree with Sir Robert that the gang was sending a message to the prostitutes in Whitechapel to pay up when they came calling or they would get the same damage of goods done to them that Ms. Smith got. It was a damage of their goods as their genitalia was what they used to ply their trade. What happened to Emma Smith was a sex crime but it was also an act to make sure she could not work.

Perhaps Jack did read of this and it got his motor running to use a euphemism or maybe he was in the gang or saw one of the attacks or more then one attack because he was following the gang.

Perhaps I am wrong and Jack practiced killing on animals and didn't have anything to do with the George Street Gang but his starting his killings at the same time the gang was doing their racket a horrible coincidence.

Just my thoughts. I think his first victim was Ada Wilson, or Anne Milwood although I don't know that much about Milwood so I suggest her tentatively. Regarding Wilson, if she was the first then Jack must of found himself a learning curve to vastly improve or figure out what he wanted to do to these women he would later murder. Ms. Wilson was kind of sloppy if she was a ripper victim.

[SirRobertAnderson]

the Emily Horsnell and Margaret Hayes attacks make it pretty obvious that there was a gang doing a protection racket on the streets of East London. I also agree with Sir Robert that the gang was sending a message to the prostitutes in Whitechapel to pay up when they came calling or they would get the same damage of goods done to them that Ms. Smith got. It was a damage of their goods as their genitalia was what they used to ply their trade. What happened to Emma Smith was a sex crime but it was also an act to make sure she could not work.


They left her alive. Not just to suffer but to tell what happened to her. To be an example....

[George Lorton]

They left her alive. Not just to suffer but to tell what happened to her. To be an example....

True, I agree. You phrased it better then I did.

[Tom_Wescott]

I think too much is being read into the Smith crime. She was murdered by some brutes, one and maybe two of whom were no longer satisfied with mere mugging and beating. They beat her over the head pretty good, and ravaged her body in ways I'm only now comprehending. They left her for dead. They did not leave her alive and conscious. That she DID live and tell her tale must have been a source of terror for them for a short time.

Tabram was beaten over the head and killed in a similar fashion, only with knives and not a blunt instrument. Incidentally, since the instrument in question was not left at the scene of Smith's attack, and was carried away by the killer, it would have been something he had with him. But I digress. Only now that I see how brutally Smith was murdered does it make sense that the same killers could have been responsible for Tabram, only in a fashion that would guarantee she didn't live to tell the tale.

There was no protection racket there. That's 20th century stuff. Pimps recruited marketable girls to turn them into whores. They had nothing to do with over the hill doss house prostitutes.

Back to Smith and Tabram. To me, the level of rage and violence in these two murders is identical. But there was none of this rage evident in the Nichols slaying. So either the killer(s) did some serious soul searching to decide what he/they wanted to get out of his next killing, and emerged a more patient, determined killer, or Smith/Tabram and the Ripper killers are truly unrelated, which is what I always thought was the case. But then what happened to the original killers? If the Smith/Tabram killers were not related to the Ripper killings, then the timing was impeccable.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Nemo]

I'm not so sure Tabram's killer wasn't a bit more controlled than at first sight

The stab wounds do appear to target selected areas of the body and organs rather than being an overall flurry of non-targetted stabs which I would have expected to have been more localised in the area of the neck and chest

The deeper wound through the sternum seems particularly directed and appears to have come after the first weapon was sheathed and another drawn

That doesn't denote an out of control fury to me

A flurry of blows could be seen as simple overkill, whereas I'm not certain whether there was an element of sadism and torture in this murder while Tabram lay dying

Wouldn't a trained soldier be expected to kill a little more decisively and quickly if killing was the primary aim?

[Maria Birbili]

Wouldn't a trained soldier be expected to kill a little more decisively and quickly if killing was the primary aim?
That's what always has bothered me, Nemo.

If the Smith/Tabram killers were not related to the Ripper killings, then the timing was impeccable.
There are also the torso murders.

[Cris Malone]

Back to Smith and Tabram. To me, the level of rage and violence in these two murders is identical. But there was none of this rage evident in the Nichols slaying. So either the killer(s) did some serious soul searching to decide what he/they wanted to get out of his next killing, and emerged a more patient, determined killer, or Smith/Tabram and the Ripper killers are truly unrelated, which is what I always thought was the case. But then what happened to the original killers? If the Smith/Tabram killers were not related to the Ripper killings, then the timing was impeccable.


And nothing else like that took place for a long while.

Hi Maria.

The torso murders had been taking place for many years. There was no evidence of violent assault... just a method of disposal of the remains. Some of these could have been murders brought on by a difficult love triangle - as was the case with Harriet Lane. Some could have been botched abortions. Some could have been the result of a more organized serial killer.

It is interesting to note that, in the case of the Thames Embankment discovery at the construction site of the New Scotland Yard, Dr. Hebbert mentioned that the same organ was missing as in some of the Whitechapel Murders.

[Debra Arif]

It is interesting to note that, in the case of the Thames Embankment discovery at the construction site of the New Scotland Yard, Dr. Hebbert mentioned that the same organ was missing as in some of the Whitechapel Murders.

Hi Cris,
The lower pelvis and other pelvic viscera were also missing, making the missing uterus in the Whitehall case less significant I feel.

[George Lorton]

Hi Tom,

"There was no protection racket there. That's 20th century stuff. Pimps recruited marketable girls to turn them into whores. They had nothing to do with over the hill doss house prostitutes."

The Protection racket goes back to medieval times. Free Companies in France and Italy would get paid money from cities to leave them alone so they would not be sacked. A rather grand example it's true. I think crime history is riddled with gangs giving Prostitutes the shake down.

I could see some street gang targeting a prostitute and giving her the shake down to get money out of her and then assaulting her in that horrible way to send a message to other prostitutes of what they would get if they didn't pay up. The Protection Racket had to start somewhere and I have learned over the years that sometimes History does repeat itself.

I could also see one of the gang member morphing into a serial killer, perhaps even JTR.

-Or Emma Smith could have indeed have been covering up what happened to her.

Both these theories have merit.

[Maria Birbili]

Hi Maria.
The torso murders had been taking place for many years. There was no evidence of violent assault... just a method of disposal of the remains. Some of these could have been murders brought on by a difficult love triangle - as was the case with Harriet Lane. Some could have been botched abortions. Some could have been the result of a more organized serial killer.
It is interesting to note that, in the case of the Thames Embankment discovery at the construction site of the New Scotland Yard, Dr. Hebbert mentioned that the same organ was missing as in some of the Whitechapel Murders.
Hi Cris,
The lower pelvis and other pelvic viscera were also missing, making the missing uterus in the Whitehall case less significant I feel.
Many thanks to Cris and to Debs for the relevant info. I'll have to look up Harriet Lane – did only her torso get found?

What I've been trying to say is that if we wanna link Emma Smith to the C5, the discrepancies in the MO can only be explained through group dynamic AND plausibly through suspectology – with a pimp suspect such as Le Grand. If we want to link Martha Tabram to the C5, in my opinion the MO can most plausibly be explained through the perp having momentarily lost control of her. (But I still need to read up on Tabram's injuries more carefully, when I have a minute, and part of the relevant lit is not available to me presently.)

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Maria. Nobody is trying to link Emma Smith to the C5 here, and you know that bringing up Le Grand to Debs is just gonna cause sh*t. I'm arguing that Smith and Tabram were killed by the same two men. To link Emma Smith to the C5 you'd first have to show that Tabram and Nichols were killed by the same man/men, and this is not something that will EVER be provable to the satisfaction of all. There are very stark differences between Tabram's murder and Nichols. Nevertheless, while I'm willing to concede the possibility of two super villian-like killers at work at the same time (Ripper and Torso), I think putting a third in the mix is almost asking too much. Particularly since one completely disappears as another is entering the scene. For this reason, I'm willing to consider that Nichols represented an evolution of one of the men responsible for Tabram...probably not the penknife man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi George,

I'm not saying protection rackets didn't exist, but you're pretty much feeding me 'From Hell' here, and there's no evidence of this. There's no question that Smith was killed by 2-3 men who mugged her. I'm sure that after the doctor told her she had hours to live she would have told him more if she had it, and she was never a modest woman in the first place, according to her friends, so there's no ground to suppose she fictionalized events.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[George Lorton]

Hi George,

I'm not saying protection rackets didn't exist, but you're pretty much feeding me 'From Hell' here, and there's no evidence of this. There's no question that Smith was killed by 2-3 men who mugged her. I'm sure that after the doctor told her she had hours to live she would have told him more if she had it, and she was never a modest woman in the first place, according to her friends, so there's no ground to suppose she fictionalized events.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I agree it was a mugging.

"-Or Emma Smith could have indeed have been covering up what happened to her."

That line at the end of my last post was just me saying that she could of been covering up what happened to her. I never said that was what I believed. That was just me being fair and putting that theory out there.

The only way she would of covered up or lied about what happened to her was if she thought that she was going to recover. I do wonder if the doctor was able to tell her that she was dying as I heard that she fought off unconsciousness to tell the police what she knew. So the doctor might not of had time to tell her anything as I believe she was unconscious or in a coma for the last 3 or 4 days of her life.

[Maria Birbili]

Hi Maria. Nobody is trying to link Emma Smith to the C5 here, and you know that bringing up Le Grand to Debs is just gonna cause sh*t.
OK if that's how you wanna play it, but with a Le Grand suspectology, linking Emma Smith to the C5 is inevitable. There are some sort of parallels with the Pasquier attack. (And perhaps the Horsenail attack?)
By the by, I agree with Sir Bob that Emma Smith might have been left alive intentionally, “to teach her a lesson“. Esp. if the attacker was a pimp, and here, again, see Pasquier.
They left her alive. Not just to suffer but to tell what happened to her. To be an example....

And I agree with Tom that Smith appears candid enough to have said the truth about 2 assailants, esp. since it was not the first time she had reported having been assailed, and at other times she only mentioned one assailant.
Also, the logistics of cutting her ear, then attacking her internally with a penknife speak for 2 assailants (the one with the knife at her ear plausibly holding her down).

I'm arguing that Smith and Tabram were killed by the same two men.
Then you're arguing it wrong, if you (and How) insist in imagining that Tabram was attacked while she was asleep inside of the George Yard staircase. It's much simpler to consider a prostitute-john(s) situation here – or a prostitute-pimp(s) situation for that matter.

To link Emma Smith to the C5 you'd first have to show that Tabram and Nichols were killed by the same man/men, and this is not something that will EVER be provable to the satisfaction of all. There are very stark differences between Tabram's murder and Nichols.
Don't care too much about the satisfaction of all (does that make me un-prostitute-like?:tongue1:), and Tabram could very well be the missing link for the Ripper having learned how NOT to kill or, as you called it, “the evolution of one of the men responsible for Tabram“.

By the by, here in Paris there's a movie opening this week about a Victorian brothel (Apollonia, Apollonide something) and we might go see it on Sunday. I strictly for research, of course. :-)

[Wicker Man]

Then you're arguing it wrong, if you (and How) insist in imagining that Tabram was attacked while she was asleep inside of the George Yard staircase. It's much simpler to consider a prostitute-john(s) situation here – or a prostitute-pimp(s) situation for that matter.


I don't think 'Aitch is insisting on that, but if I read you correct then I agree. Smith was killed by 'others'.

If anyone is inclined to the 'progressive murderer' hypothesis, there is more circumstantial evidence to be had in a, Millwood, Wilson, Tabram sequence, leaving Smith out.

Regards, Jon S.

[George Lorton]

I don't think 'Aitch is insisting on that, but if I read you correct then I agree. Smith was killed by 'others'.

If anyone is inclined to the 'progressive murderer' hypothesis, there is more circumstantial evidence to be had in a, Millwood, Wilson, Tabram sequence, leaving Smith out.

Regards, Jon S.

I find it interesting and I was just looking at the Ada Wilson topic. Not much going I'm afraid but Deb posted some interesting info on her about 2 yrs ago.

[Maria Birbili]

Excuse me, but who is 'Aitch? How Brown?

[Wicker Man]

Yes Ma'am!

[Tom_Wescott]

Maria,

The idea that Smith was left alive as a 'warning' has great dramatic appeal, but no sense of reality behind it. Given the brutality of the injuries inflicted upon her, the killers couldn't have expected her to be alive when they left. They sure didn't want her to live to tell her tale of warning...and give up their identities in the process. After all, if she were involved with them in a 'protection racket', she would know them as well as they knew her.
Even as strangers, they would not want a description circulating that could lead others to point them out. I used to think they were just drunk idiots who raped her with a walking stick, but had no idea of the damage they caused, but after actually taking the time to read the newspaper reports of the inquest, and Reid's notes, I realized how wrong I was.

And neither Howard nor myself were 'insisting' on proposing that Tabram was asleep when murdered. This is a forum where ideas are exchanged and discussed. Tabram as well as Nichols could have been sleeping when murdered. One or both might have been. Or neither.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Maria Birbili]

Tom,
I'm seeing where you're coming from, particularly this:
They sure didn't want her to live to tell her tale of warning...and give up their identities in the process. After all, if she were involved with them in a 'protection racket', she would know them as well as they knew her. Even as strangers, they would not want a description circulating that could lead others to point them out.
Still, I have 2 problems with their having left her for dead:
1) If they really wanted to kill her, they could have easily cut her throat or knifed her heart as a parting gesture (like with Tabram), and
2) Remember how Le Grand beat up Pasquier and didn't seem to care if she would testify against him? Please let me stress that I'm not necessarily implying that Le Grand was the assailant in the Emma Smith case here, in this instance I'm using him simply as an illustratory example.

And neither Howard nor myself were 'insisting' on proposing that Tabram was asleep when murdered. This is a forum where ideas are exchanged and discussed. Tabram as well as Nichols could have been sleeping when murdered. One or both might have been. Or neither.
Oh, OK. The problem that I have with the victims being asleep before they were attacked is that shape and gender of homeless people is not always recognizable. Here in Paris the pavement at night is sooo chockfull of homeless people sleeping, that it's hard to avoid stepping on them. And I can tell you that gender or age is not always discernable, if they're lying under thick blankets and one can't see their faces.

[Cris Malone]

Hi Cris,
The lower pelvis and other pelvic viscera were also missing, making the missing uterus in the Whitehall case less significant I feel.

Thank you, Debs.

I agree that would make it less significant.
Your research and knowledge about the torso murders far surpasses what I've seen displayed in the two main books on this subject, which seem to use the murders as a background for promulgating theories, instead of offering a comprehensive study of the subject.

[Cris Malone]

Many thanks to Cris and to Debs for the relevant info. I'll have to look up Harriet Lane – did only her torso get found?


Hi Maria,

There is a lot to this story, but I'll try to be concise.
Henry Wainwright murdered his mistress, Harriet Lane, and buried her body under the floor of his warehouse. A year later, 1875, the lease expired on the warehouse, so Wainwright, fearful that the body might be discovered, exhumed her (she had been covered in quicklime to accelerate decomposition, but it had the opposite effect) and cut her up in pieces.

He put the remains in some cloth bags with the intention of transporting them across Whitechapel to his brother's (Thomas) warehouse to be buried there. He had an employee by the name of Stokes to help him carry the packages to the street. Unfortunately for Wainwright, Stokes got curious about what was in the bags while Wainwright was off hailing a cab. He opened one of the bags and found a head.

Wainwright returned with the cab and had Stokes help him load the packages; then rode off, picking up a girlfriend along the way to ride with him. Stokes hailed a policeman and after a chase down the street the cab was stopped, the contents revealed and Wainwright and his brother were arrested.

There's much more to the story, but in answer to your question, I believe all of her dismembered body was in the cloth packages.

Thomas Bond was one of the medicos who examined the remains. The police originally thought that the remains were more recent until Lane's brother showed up to identify his sister.

I hope I got it right... going totally on memory here and ain't had my coffee yet.

[Phillip Walton]

Perhaps if Crippen had clued up on the Harriet Lane Murder he might have got away with it. He was caught for the same reason, quicklime has to be wet to destroy a corpse. When it is dry it acts as a preservative.

[Maria Birbili]

Thank you for the story, Cris. Somehow sounds familiar, might have read about it on the boards before, perhaps without recalling the names...?
About the girlfriend Wainwright picked up on the cab with the “packages“, wow, she surely had taste and a serious lack of a sixth sense.:eek:

By the by, as a small parenthesis, not totally unrelated to the thread's subject: I need to issue a severe warning if anyone wants to go see the new French flick Apollonide about a Victorian brothel. It's boring to death and not much like a documentary, despite being advertized so. It's very much a rip off of Louis Malle's Pretty Baby (with Brook Shields, Susan Sarandon, and Keith Carradine) which does much better as historical fiction, and Luis Bunuel's Belle de jour with Catherine Deneuve is a much better story in a brothel as well.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Still, I have 2 problems with their having left her for dead:
1) If they really wanted to kill her, they could have easily cut her throat or knifed her heart as a parting gesture (like with Tabram),

Let's put it this way: I don't think they really cared what happened to her; she was meat in their eyes. But they refrained from outright killing her and may in fact not intended to inflict mortal wounds.

The simplest answer is generally best - it would have been easy to kill her on the spot if they chose. So it is a question in my mind of the desire of delivering a message to other prostitutes in the area versus fear of identification...and message won out. Perhaps unintentionally, but that's what happened. Rather un-Jack like IMHO.

[Dave O]

There is absolutely no doubt that there should have been a post mortem, and I'm surprised that one wasn't ordered.

I am not sure how Dr. Dukes could have been allowed to say that the distended condition of the abdomen was probably a result of the condition given when a post mortem should have settled the matter. The coroner must be in the wrong for not adjourning for the autopsy to be carried out, but having decided that there would be no clue as to the offenders in the case and, presumably, an unsolved murder verdict being undesirable, the jury were left with no option other than returning an open verdict.

Sorry to backtrack, I had entirely missed the discussion as well as the article that Debra posted back in 2008. I'd just like to say that I'm also surprised that no post-mortem was ordered in the Horsenail case. Baxter certainly had the power to order one at any point during the inquest. Furthermore, the jury had the power to compel him to order one. I don't understand why they didn't do it, especially as they were faced with returning an open verdict--the medical evidence seems very unsatisfactory as it didn't explain what caused that abdominal inflammation.

The only reason for not adjourning that I can think of is that maybe they were thin on jurymen, but still. I think that in this particular case, that open verdict is bad going.

Dave

[Debra Arif]

Sorry to have missed this when it was posted, Dave.
When I originally posted this on casebook, John Savage posted that perhaps a post mortem was not ordered because of the additional costs it might involve?

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=35800&postcount=65

[Dave O]

Hi Debra,

Yes John is quite right about the background though I don't think it applies to this case. Let me explain why I see it differently:

While it's true that coroners were independent, there were still checks and balances on them, and one of them was financial. Talking of county coroners, as John explained, the system was that the coroner paid for expenses upfront as he went along and then would be reimbursed at the quarter sessions. The magistrates would have wanted to keep expenses down and would disallow them when they thought inquests were unnecessary, and there would be times when the coroner would be forced to eat costs spent on witnesses, venues, mileage traveled.

And the conflict between coroners and magistrates was about the scope of inquests: Talking broadly, there were magistrates who believed that--and I believe some members of the public, press, and government agreed with them--coroners should confine themselves to investigating suspicious deaths involving potential foul play and suicides, while coroners insisted on investigating unnatural deaths in the interests of public safety, which was a much wider range of deaths, and therefore more expensive. There were also suspicions of corruption, sometimes with foundation, sometimes without. This is a century that saw a rapid growth in the activity of coroners, due to a few different factors that weren't always taken into account.

And apparently, there was no rhyme and reason for when the magistrates might disallow expenses. The complaint was, sometimes they would allow them, other times not.

It was a more pronounced struggle prior to 1860--the salary act that came out that year stems directly from it because there were fears that the magistrates had introduced a chilling effect on death investigation--but you still find glimpses of it continuing on with the expenses, most notably with Thomas Bramah Diplock in the 1870s, who complained about his treatment at the hands of the magistrates.

But I think where a coroner would run into trouble would be when an inquest was held, and a verdict of natural death--or perhaps even an open verdict?--was returned. I read a hint of criticism in this article that Howard posted awhile back: http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=13255

[Dave O]

But I think this case you've found is different, and is outside the bounds of the financial conflict. There's a clear question of whether or not a murder has been committed, and one where I think the costs of a postmortem would have been well warranted, and not an example of the coroner overstepping his bounds as the magistrates might have seen it. So I don't think this is one the magistrates would have disallowed expenses for. It's because an inquest turns up new information that the coroner had the power to order a postmortem anytime during the process--and if he didn't, or if the jury had no confidence in the medical witness, they could check the coroner's discretion and even ask for someone of their own choosing, and the coroner would have to do it. That's procedure going back to The Medical Witness Act 1836, which was incorporated into The Coroner's Act 1887 pretty much unchanged.

So, while it's true that any coroner would face pressure to keep expenses down as John said, this case is one I don't understand and wonder why they went for the open verdict and didn't exercise their option to adjourn for further medical evidence.

It's a nice find, Debra. I'm sorry I missed it.

[Debra Arif]

Cheers Dave..I wonder, if M had been declared a 'by persons unknown' how this would have shifted things in the Whitechapel murders file?

[Tom_Wescott]

This is just an out-there idea I had that I thought I'd share. And no, Debs, I'm not putting it in my book. LOL. But I was thinking about the bloody shawl allegedly found by Met PC Amos Simpson in Mitre Square, supposed to have belonged to Eddowes, as publicized over the years by Andy and Sue Parlour. There's really no way this could be Eddowes shawl, as discussed in the past, but at the same time, it isn't an apparent 'hoax', so the suggestion has been that it came from some other murder and became confused as Eddowes' at some point. Well, Emma Smith was reported as having used her 'shoulder wrap' to put between her legs to catch the flow of blood as she walked home. She died in hospital and the shawl may have been taken into evidence. Emma's murder was in Met territory, though I don't know if Simpson would have worked it. But it seems plausible and would explain the shawl's alleged connection to the Whitechapel murders.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Supposedly, 18 George Street had a 1am curfew. If you didn't make it in by then, you didn't get in. So then why was Emma Smith headed there at 1:30am? And did Margaret Hames, who was two miles away in Limehouse when she spotted Smith at approximately 12:15 am, really make the two mile trek in under 45 minutes to be in the house by 1am? Not than any of this is relevant to her murder per se, but I don't like inconsistencies. And if the deputy, Mary Russell, was lax in her enforcement of rules, is it really inconceivable that Hames might have moved her times back to accommodate her? Conversely, let's say that Russell WAS strict about the rules, would this perhaps partly explain why Smith didn't bother to show until later that morning when the doors opened?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Dave O]

Hi Debra,

I don't know, it's possible that it was a natural death but of course they couldn't know what caused the peritonitis without opening the body. They certainly had reason to be suspicious given the witness testimony and the bruising. Of course there's Emma Smith later on (though there they had an attending surgeon observing her). And as John said, they must have had Horsenail's body right there or very close nearby as the jury would have had to view it, so it's not as if they're looking at an exhumation. They didn't establish cause of death, yet they had an opportunity to do so, so the open verdict is a poor one, and this case appears under-investigated, based on the article you found.

Debra, have you read an article called "Getting Away with Murder? Homcide and the Coroners in Nineteenth-century London" by Mary Beth Emmerichs? I just came across it myself. It's preliminary research she did a decade ago, and she spends much of the article focusing on the earlier part of the century, but she does address London inquests in the 1880s and considered some of them under-investigated. She questions the low murder rate, tentatively.

Dave

[Debra Arif]

Hi Dave,
No, I haven't read that, although I would really like to. I can only find an abstract of the essay online. :(
It seems similar to the 'found drowned', one size fits all that I've read about before.