Martha Tabram

[How Brown]

Forum for discussion on this murder victim and background here....

[Karen]

Gee, Martha Tabram doesn't get much attention does she? I guess that is because most people aren't even sure if she was a Ripper victim or not. I have to admit that at first I didn't think that she was, however I do believe so now. :smoker:

[How Brown]

And to say it once again...

Tabram and Emma Smith may have died far worse deaths than the C5 victims. Their demises ( the Ripper victims ) were quicker than the agonies of Tabram and Smith.

Anyone want to fill in some background or ideas they have ( if they have time ) on Tabram....?

[Robert Linford]

I tend to put this one down to Jack, How - one reason being the apparent lack of noise.

More likely Jack than an unusually quiet soldier on a bank holiday night!:)

Robert

[Karen]

Robert:

I disagree with you. I believe that Martha Tabram was killed by a soldier. Keep in mind that a police officer saw a Grenadier Guardsman standing outside of the George Yard Buildings around the time that Martha was being murdered on the first floor landing. This Grenadier Guardsman may have been the lookout for the other Guardsman who killed Martha. :D

[How Brown]

Robert:

I hear you...some of the comments made at the Convention by people like Alan Sharp make you really wonder about Tabram.

Karen:

"around the time of the murder" and "at the time of murder" are two different things I'm sure you will agree. Robert's point of a noiseless,yet equally brutal murder,make sense....at least to me.

[Karen]

How:

I didn't say it was a noisy murder - soldiers are trained to kill quietly. I know it was relatively quiet, however the Grenadier Guardsman that was questioned by the Police Officer said that he was waiting for a friend who went off with a woman. Martha Tabram and Mary Ann Connelly were in the company of 2 soldiers earlier in the evening, so why wouldn't they still be with them later? Plus Pearly Poll said that she went down one alley with the Corporal and Martha went off with the private.

More importantly, you misunderstand me - maybe "Jack the Ripper" did include a soldier.

[Robert Linford]

Hi Karen

I would have thought that only the commando-type soldier is taught to kill quietly. When using a bayonet, soldiers are taught to make a hell of a noise, to unnerve the enemy. In any case, soldiers weren't known for their quietness on bank holiday night with a skinful of booze inside them.

Re the lookout theory : if the soldier was supposed to warn his friend of the approach of a policeman, then he was a lousy lookout.:)

Robert

[How Brown]

Obviously,one of the primary reasons most Ripperologists discount Tabram as a victim is this controversy over the Grenadiersman ( I say that right?) being in proximity timewise and location wise.

Has anyone ever considered that after a possible liason with a client,Tabram went to sleep on the landing and was arisen by the killer shortly thereafter?

Having sex on (what we Americans call ) a "second floor" seems unusual. Going to a second floor to have sex is likewise pretty unusual itself.

Anyone?

[Robert Linford]

Good point, How. Why take a client up flights of stairs when there was a convenient alley available (except in cases of cold or rain)?

I suppose there's just a chance that Tabram took a client there, intending to sleep the rest of the night on the landing after he'd gone.

But failing that, it might be that she was indeed sleeping there and was discovered by the murderer. If this is what happened, then it seems to me to suggest a killer who was at the disorganized end of the spectrum, given to wandering aimlessly around, rather than an organized predator-type seeking out a victim.

It seems, on the other hand, unlikely that jack took her to the landing, because although it might be slightly more private, the risk of being overheard would be greater.

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

One of the best parts of being involved with Ripperology is the ability to change one's view based on new and fresh concepts that thankfully occur every day. I think it is inevitable that some people,not all,are more easily driven to a conclusion based on their character-type and mental faculties. I know I have often "jumped the gun" to a conclusion without taking all possiblities in account. The Tabram murder is a definite case in point.

This,for me,is new "ground" in the conceptualization of Tabram as a real C5 victim. Its intriguing.

I give Paul Begg,you,and Alan some degree of credit in re-thinking Tabram as a victim after all. In Mr.Begg's book,The Facts,which I have been trying to read thoroughly,not just half heartedly, I see Mr.Begg poses the question himself about her candidacy.

And if this is true,then perhaps we really are looking at a semi-organized killer with a whole lot of luck on his side after all.

It doesn't matter what I personally think,but I am glad to be able to enter that door of possibilities based on a reassessing of her 'victim status' as certain things about the crime make sense to include her.

[How Brown]

Robert:

One other point about Tabram's attackers here....

What are the odds that TWO men would risk apprehension in a building they were at no times secure in knowing whether one of the doors would open for ANY reason?

Its almost as if the two men were of one mind ( in the two man killer scenario ) OR there was an "alpha" male doing the bulk of the heinous work,while Stepin Fetchit served as a lookout.

Imagine how hard the secret would be to keep in this situation.

[Robert Linford]

Hi How

Well, I saw a photo of the landing where Martha was murdered, and there just doesn't look room enough for two men and a woman. And if a second man was acting as lookout - well he wasn't looking out! (if the soldier is meant)

If the two man theory is applied to Stride and Broadshoulders, I have to ask what's the point of having a lookout if you're going to attack the woman noisily in the street instead of the yard? (I don't think BS was the killer, but he's where the two man theory comes in)

Then with Kelly : if Hutchinson was a lookout, how could he possibly warn the killer from across the street? If a policeman appeared, was he supposed to nip down the alley, knock on the door, and say "Quick, clean yourself up and we'll both stroll nonchalantly out of the Court - there's a policeman coming!"

But in the end I just don't see the two man theory working, for psychological reasons. I think these crimes were personal (not because Jack knew the victims, but because the motivation was personal to him). The two man theory might make sense if Jack was a social reformer, but i don't really go with it otherwise.

Just my opinion.

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

"
Hi How

Well, I saw a photo of the landing where Martha was murdered, and there just doesn't look room enough for two men and a woman. And if a second man was acting as lookout - well he wasn't looking out! (if the soldier is meant)
_________________________________

Exactly sir....And from what I understand, a very unusual setting for a knee trembler, period.

If the two man theory is applied to Stride and Broadshoulders, I have to ask what's the point of having a lookout if you're going to attack the woman noisily in the street instead of the yard? (I don't think BS was the killer, but he's where the two man theory comes in)
_________________________________

Exactly sir....The ONLY possible employment of a second man from what I can see is some sort of backup in case the first man is interrupted. I might be wrong.

Then with Kelly : if Hutchinson was a lookout, how could he possibly warn the killer from across the street? If a policeman appeared, was he supposed to nip down the alley, knock on the door, and say "Quick, clean yourself up and we'll both stroll nonchalantly out of the Court - there's a policeman coming!"
___________________________________

Exactly sir....The whole Miller's Court concept of a two man ( with one as lookout) is flawed from the outset. The Court had one way in and one way out. A lookout might even draw attraction to the machinations of a two man team more so than a solo killer.

But in the end I just don't see the two man theory working, for psychological reasons. I think these crimes were personal (not because Jack knew the victims, but because the motivation was personal to him). The two man theory might make sense if Jack was a social reformer, but I don't really go with it otherwise.
_________________________________

While its possible that two men were in league,I agree that it comes in second to the one man idea. Social reformers are usually ostentatious sorts and keeping their mouths shut would be an even harder task to fulfill.


Just my opinion.
_____________

And a well put one,old bean;)

Robert

[Robert Linford]

How, just wondering whether, as soon as the police believed they had a series, they went back and questioned the soldiers who'd come under temporary suspicion in the case of Tabram, about their whereabouts on the nights of the other murders - as an insurance.

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

More importantly,has anyone else ever thought what you just posted? This is news to me for sure....

Great idea on your part....I wonder if the soldiers were scrutinized down the line....

What would be the best way to check that out off the top of your head? Maybe someone has the day by day log of these soldiers or the ability to find it.

Good thinking Robert.:thumbsupbud:

[Robert Linford]

Hi How

I don't recall seeing any reference to the police doing further checks on the soldiers.

It would help if some sort of military log book survived.

Then again, you have to wonder whether Susan Ward was ever asked to take a look at any suspect.

Questions, questions...

Robert

[Joe Chetcuti]

I'm going to try to do something a bit different here. You don't need to know anything about the Whitechapel murders to participate. Newcomers are welcome, so feel free to join in if you're in the mood.

I'm going to give you two different scenarios occurring during an East End night in 1888. The first example is of a man and a prostitute going up the stairwell in the George Yard Building at...let's say 12:30am. After having been provoked or disturbed in some way by the prostitute, the man does something terribly spontaneous. He loses control of himself and behaves in a very angry & hurried manner. After strangling his victim to death, he draws two weapons and commences a wild & frenzied attack on the corpse. He leaves the dead woman on the floor with 39 stab wounds.

Example #2 sees a different man and a different prostitute heading up the George Yard Building stairwell a couple of hours later on the same night. This prostitute does nothing to upset her man. She doesn't antagonize him at all, nor does she sense any danger from him. The man doesn't behave spontaneously though. In accordance to his previously contemplated plan, he proceeds to strangle his victim to death. He has just committed an awful murder, yet he was in complete control of himself. He then calmly drew out his two weapons and methodically applied 39 stab wounds to the prostitute. Sexual contact was never on his mind. He was only concerned with the meticulous slaying of a prostitute in this exact manner. No anger was involved.

We now have two dead women on the floor with each having been the recipient of 39 stab wounds from two different killers. This is where you come in. You come across the two corpses in the George Yard Building. You're medically knowledgeable so you're able to quickly figure out which woman was killed around 12:30am and which one died a few hours later. Your job is to determine which prostitute was the victim of a frenzied, out-of-control attack, and who was the one victimized in a very self-controlled & premeditated method of murder.

What thought process would you implement that will enable you to differentiate between which of the two women was killed in a frenzied attack and which one wasn't?

As for myself, I'd start by making a categorized list of the features that are most likely to have been prevalent in an angry, out-of-control assault. Then I'd search for those features at the two crime scenes. For instance, when determining which woman was killed in the wild and angry attack...

* I'd look for facial and bodily injuries that resulted from violent punches and kicks. (e.g. black eyes, knocked out teeth, swelled contusions, pulled out hair, etc.)

* I'd look for signs of aggressive sexual assault. Maybe even bite marks.

* I'd question the building's tenants to find out if they heard any verbal arguments coming from either of the two crime scene areas, and if so, at what time had it occurred.

* I'd look to see if the victims' possessions were frantically tampered with. Were there rings or jewelry vicously torn away from the victims?

* I'd look for sign of the presence of alcohol. (Spilled liquor, abandoned beverage containers, etc.)

Every answer that I uncover will help me deduce which of the two victims was killed in a frenzied attack. And when I attempt to determine which woman was killed in the premeditated assault, this following question can be looked into at the two crime scenes:

* Was there any systematic pattern to these 39 stab wounds? Especially in relationship to the two weapons.

If any of you have more things to add the list, please go right ahead and post it. I'd like to read them. Thanks.

[How Brown]

Joltin' Joe...

Nice work my man. Allow me to add a couple of pro-Tabram-as-Ripper-victim "links".....

The efficiency of Tabrams' killer. The four closest people to the crime ( Maybe Tom can chip in here...) heard nothing. I don't think they avoided any involvement with the police because of previous prostitution occurring in the building out of some "stain" attached to the building.....but they could have heard some "action" thinking it was standard operating procedure. Personally,I don't think they heard anything. Just an opinion.

From a "test" that I personally conducted at work ( timed ) with an erzatz Tabram out of my beloved polyurethane....the assault on her person took roughly 30 seconds. This may seem like an eternity for some....but if performed on a dead individual,very plausible.

Anyone else?

[Tom_Wescott]

Joe,

I'm on the fence about Tabram, though I lean towards thinking she's not a Ripper victim. The Ripper was a cutter, not a stabber, for one. Unlike Howard, I'm not at all convinced that the two people closest to the crime didn't hear something. However, I can't completely write her off and uncategorically say she was not a Ripper victim. I don't think anybody can. She may have been killed by the Ripper but was not a part of the Ripper series, if that makes sense. If we had better medical evidence and a contemporary diagram of the wounds to her body, that might change things. But going off of just what we have now, it's more likely that she was not murdered by the same person who killed Nichols.
By the way, another scenario would be that Tabram was asleep/passed out on the landing when murdered, possibly by a young man living on the floor above who was coming down or going up.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Robert Linford]

One theory that hasn't been discussed, is that this was a "Murder on the Orient Express" situation, with everyone who lived in the building contributing a stab, and John Gielgud intoning "For my gentleman." :madgrin:

Seriously though, I wish I knew more about the location, for I'm puzzled as to why Martha would have climbed to the landing (if she had a man with her). Wouldn't there have been a small area just inside the doorway, at the foot of the staircase, where she would have been looking to service him?

Robert

[How Brown]

Tom:

Thanks for mentioning the "removal" of Tabram from the series of Ripper murders,yet being possibly...possibly...from the same hand,albeit by a different methodology.

Likewise,the part about an already slumbering Martha getting murdered. Not a bad idea at all,sor. Homeless people get doused with gas and set on fire for the fun of it by people spontaneously now in our wonderful times.

[Robert Linford]

I'm not sure there's such a huge difference between a stab and a rip. Presumably a rip starts with a stab, only instead of withdrawing the knife, the perpetrator moves the arm upwards or downwards or leftwards or rightwards. Nichols was stabbed in the vagina, Eddowes in the liver and Kelly apparently through the sheet.

Robert

[Joe Chetcuti]

When I look at each individual aspect of Martha Tabram's murder, I try to determine if that particular feature belongs on the side of the balance-scale that supports the conclusion that she was spontaneously murdered in a frenzy. And if it doesn't belong there, then it goes on the other side. Right now, it's unmistakable to me that the balance is heavily tilted toward one end.

No reported noise, no impetuous sexual assault, no robbery attempt, no bruises on Tabram from vicious punches or kicks. And as Detective Inspector Harry Cox had said, there were no "marks of struggles or of blows given in anger." I'm trying to be objective here, but the "premeditated & self-controlled" side of the scale seems to be holding a dominant position right now.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Robert,

Yes, you're right in wondering why Tabram would climb a flight of stairs to conduct her business. As for myself, I haven't changed my opinion on this. I still feel that it was the killer who led Tabram to that exact location. He might have even said to her that he lived in the building.

Nobody heard voices or sounds. I don't think Martha was on that landing very long before she was strangled.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello all,

It's important to remember that it was never concluded that she was strangled. This is assumed. Having said that, I agree with Joe that the Ripper would have maintained control over where the murders would have occurred. I know this is not a popular idea, but I find it stretching to suppose that an intelligent murderer would let a drunk street woman choose his killing ground. I'm also not convinced that the Ripper would have chosen such a spot as Tabram was killed at, though it is possible.

Robert,

There's a very big difference between stabbing and cutting.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Robert Linford]

Well, it's an interesting discussion. If we take the line that the Ripper chose the spots, and that Tabram was part of the series, then we have to ask why he didn't repeat his success with Chapman, i.e. taken her to a landing inside No.29.

Robert

[Joe Chetcuti]

Wolf Vanderlinden dealt with the question of whether Tabram was strangled to death or not in his No Ordinary East End Crime article. Doctor Killeen gave the cause of death as exsanguination and not strangulation, so that's probably the best point to be made against the "Tabram died by strangulation" talk.

PC Barrett said Tabram's hands were clenched when he saw her. This seems to point towards strangulation. The Illustrated Police News reported that Tabram was throttled while held down. Detective Inspector Harry Cox said that it appeared that Tabram "had been quietly throttled to death, and after death mutilated in the most horrible fashion."

You'd think Tabram would have screamed her head off if she wasn't strangled to death before the 39 stab wounds were applied. Since nobody heard a sound, a likely conclusion to be drawn was that she indeed had been strangled to death before the stabs were inflicted.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where she wasn't strangled yet remained silent. It's tough. Maybe if that brutal heart stab occurred first thus causing death to be instaneous? That's about all I could come up with.

But I'd have to lay my money down on her having been strangled to death first, then stabbed. Regardless, Vanderlinden's article should be read by everyone. It was a good one.

[How Brown]

Joe:

A couple of thoughts here...

If,as Tom has mentioned...Tabram was asleep at the onset of a strangulation...the entire building would have been aroused. In a supine position,as I am sure you will agree,its not easy for the person attempting to strangle someone to get the best angle for a noiseless manuever. Someone being throttled from sleep will react violently ( the adrenaline rush ). Someone being throttled from a superior position maintained by the throttler can be subdued with less noise. Tabram,with all due respect,appears to have been large in the neck area,making an easy throttling that much harder,if conducted in a supine position.

On the other hand,a quick thrust to an upright person's heart in order to kill( hand over mouth...the element of surprise...the victim gagging in an attempt to cry out ) can be achieved noiselessly.

[Tom_Wescott]

Joe,

Please know that I'm not stating that Tabram was not strangled. If you look back years ago on the boards, it was accepted at the time that she had not been strangled and I was arguing that she had been, Harry Cox (what an unfortunate name) being one of the sources I'd bring up. But nobody would buy it. Of course, the Illustrated Police News and Mr. Cox are hardly reliable sources. Although I'm not a big fan of that essay by Wolf, he did good work in it by showing just how inexperienced Dr. Killeen was. Still, strangulation is rather easy to detect by a number of methods, and presumably Dr. Killeen - though green - was not altogether incompetent. He looked for signs of strangulation but found none. It's hard to just dismiss that offhand. Having said that, I agree with you that her murder makes more sense if we suppose she was somehow silenced before being stabbed. A good example would be the victims of the Manson gang at the Tate house. One of those guys was hit over the head 14 times with a blunt object, stabbed 40 odd times, and I believe shot twice, and he kept running and screaming. As for the heart wound, I imagine we can all agree that it was most likely inflicted after she was prostrate on her back.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Joe Chetcuti]

Check out the photo of Tabram's murder site:

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?album=7&pos=7

John Saunders Reeves came down that stairwell in the darkness of the pre-dawn morning on Aug 7th, and Tabram was visibly nearby. He saw her despite the darkness, so you've got to think she was just a few steps away from where this picture was taken. To me, this just doesn't seem like a spot where a prostitute would take a man so she could earn her money. Despite the early morning hour, that stairwell was still built for the purpose of human traffic. You'd think there would be a better locale for a woman to open up shop and privately conduct her business.

I suppose that helps the sleeping-Tabram theory, but I'm much more inclined to believe that it was the killer who led Tabram up this stairwell, and he killed her in transit once they walked on the level floor of the landing.

There will always be two things that I'll remember about the George Yard murder:

* The exact count of 39 wounds near the pillar.

* And how within 24 hours, a Parliament Member was at the murder site toting a loaded revolver while in a hunt for Tabram's murderer. A Satanic killer who the Parliament Member believed may dance around a sacrifice.

[Robert Linford]

Joe, on seeing that pic again I'm wondering how he didn't trip over her!

Robert

[Tom_Wescott]

To me, this just doesn't seem like a spot where a prostitute would take a man so she could earn her money.

It's also interesting that she was killed right outside the door of the building's superintendent. It may mean nothing, or it may have been intentional. Apparently, it was a common spot for the homeless to sleep, though.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[staceybrown]

Pearly Poll has the answers but is afraid to tell:decision:

[How Brown]

Stace:

Well cuz...if she did know,she unfortunately picked out two men with alibis for the night in question that cleared them from any complicity.

Both were of the Coldstream Guards...one who was with his wife on the night in question and the other in his barracks...

But...ya never know.

[staceybrown]

:lalala: Sorry about that How I didn't mean to act as though I really know but there's something about that name

[How Brown]

Stacey:

One "problem" with Pearly Poll's subsequent fingerpointing is that not only are the two gents she picked out probably not the two gents who escorted Mrs.Tabram and herself...but the killer or killers( to cover all bases here ) were probably,if not definitely,not seen by Poll at all.

It is a pretty neat name though,isn't it?

[staceybrown]

Hello thar How Your current avatar is smashing no kidding

[How Brown]

Stace:

I was gonna say...."Ah,so's yer old man...".

But I can't 'cause he's my Uncle.

When in the name of all that is WASP....are you gonna send me a photo of you? The one I had from 1968 is unavailable....

Why is everyone in my family better looking than me ? I mean,even our pets are better looking than me.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Thanks for recently sharing the Daily Inter Ocean article with all of us.

[Joe Chetcuti]

I'm curious, Tim. You said the newspaper article listed 9 deaths, with Emma and Martha being the first two. I assume the so-called canonical five were included. That leaves us with two more.

[Tim Riordan]

Hi Joe,

In addition to the two I previously mentioned and the canonical five, the paper listed an unnamed woman murdered on September 23 at Gateshead near Newcastle on Tyne in the north of England and the remains of a woman found on Oct 2 on the Thames embankment.

Tim

[Joe Chetcuti]

So the Jane Beadmore murder in Gateshead was one of the nine. Thanks for the info.

That Daily Inter Ocean article was quite something. "The Chief of the Secret Service of London Police." It sounds like Hughes-Hallett wasn't the only bigwig who was quick to formulate an opinion right after the Tabram murder.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Alan Sharp published an article in the January 2006 issue of Ripper Notes. Alan told of the capture, conviction, and execution of Jane Beadmore's killer, William Waddell. I remember reading it two years ago and being really impressed with Alan's work. So I ended up going into my cellar last night, and I dug up that old Ripper Notes issue. I re-read it again and it was better than ever. If you want to know about the Beadmore case that was mentioned above in the Daily Inter Ocean's murder list, then you won't find a better source of information than Alan's article. If there is a way to purchase a back copy of that issue, then you should go for it.

A comment that should be made about the Daily Inter Ocean article that Tim & A.P. posted is that there seems to be two distinct and different parts to it. The interview with James Maitland, the old-time Chicago reporter, is the authentic part. This was a first-hand interview with a veteran reporter who had established an important police contact for himself during his 5 year stay in England. The second half of the article seemed to have originated in Chicago where it was filled with errors concerning the English murders. The information provided in this portion of the article obviously didn't come from Maitland. I'd keep the first part of the article in my fish bucket and I'd throw the second half back into the sea.

[A.P. Wolf]

Three parts, Joe, on that page, there is also Pinkerton's views about Tumblety.
Who that?

[Joe Chetcuti]

Yes A.P.

I certainly realize that an article about the Littlechild Suspect was placed adjacently to an article which spoke of how the "Chief of the Secret Service of London Police" suspected that a particular vengeful foreigner probably had murdered Martha Tabram.

[A.P. Wolf]

Ah but, Joe, when the English press in 1888 used the term 'foreigner' they did mean a Jew.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Yes the English press would refer to a Jew in that manner.

It's an important topic here so we better get the words right.

More precisely, the Chief of the Secret Service of London Police felt that one man was involved in the Ripper murders. He was a vengeful fellow who was probably a foreigner. And the Chief formulated this opinion shortly after the Tabram murder.

[A.P. Wolf]

So he would have meant a Jew, then Joe?
If he meant anything else he would have said it.

[Joe Chetcuti]

If the 1888 English press was going to speak about a Jew, then it was their custom back then to refer to that person as a foreigner.

If the head of the Special Branch referred to a man as a foreigner, then that may be different. The first thing that would come to my mind is that this chief might be implying that the man was an Irish-American.

[A.P. Wolf]

If the head of the Special Branch described someone in 1888 as a 'foreigner' then rest assured Joe that he was talking about a Jew.
American's were never 'foreign' in the LVP, they may have been a bit strange, but hands across the sea and all that.

[Natalie Severn]

Joe,
No Englishman would have referred to an American as a "foreigner",whether he was in the secret service or not.It would not have been correct in terms of " usage" and it would not have been correct in terms of "semantics".
Best
Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

Quite right, Natalie, Maitland had just come back from five years in England and would have well understood the etiquette required in such reporting.
If Maitland had meant an American he would have said so, and so would the chief of the Secret Service.
Just look at the sources and references available to us, and we see a clear distinction between a 'foreigner' and an American.

[Joe Chetcuti]

The Chief of the Secret Service of London Police said the murderer was probably a foreigner. It sounded like the Chief had not determined what the man's exact nationality was.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Joe,
If you were an Englishman ,Joe ,you would know that whether or not someone was head of the secret service or whatever , that such a term would sound quite "wrong" and odd, if it were used about an American.To a Brit at that time,an American was an "ex-colonial", referred to as AP says as either an" American "or a "colonial" [- possibly-] but not a foreigner, which implies one of a different race entirely and by implication, one whose "mother tongue" is not English,but "foreign".
Best
Natalie

[Joe Chetcuti]

Here is something we all can agree on. The Chief said one man was involved in the Ripper murders. The Chief implied the killer was seeking revenge.

As for the killer's exact nationality, the Chief did not specifically define it. The Chief said he was probably a foreigner, so this suggests a shady area. So why don't we just place that aside and work with what we know.

Shortly after the Tabram murder, the Chief of the Secret Service of London Police talked with an American reporter about this suspect of his. The American reporter, Maitland, was familiar with the suspicions against this man as well. Maitland even admitted in the Daily Inter Ocean that he knew about the suspicions concerning this particular vengeful killer. And who does Maitland set up an interview with? Maitland sets up an interview with a man who could have possibly been the head of the Special Branch.

Maybe that will give us a clue about the nationality of the man who is under suspicion.

[Natalie Severn]

Well Joe,if the head of the secret service he had in mind was Anderson,-certainly senior to Littlechild in the secret service,then Anderson was very partial to the " mad Pole" version of history,especially those given to "solitary vices";if it were Abberline,- someone said the other day [Scott?] he was following a lead that gave Abberline as once a head of the secret service ,then Abberline may have had "Klosowski" in mind,and if it was James Monro-another head of the secret service-then he probably,like his friend Macnaghten, favoured a "mad doctor" ,of the "sexual insanity" type,which could have included our quack but would probably have been the mad barrister[who looked a tad "foreign "even though he was English]. So you can take your pick."Chacun a son gout" as they say!
Cheers Joe
Natalie:madgrin:

[A.P. Wolf]

I'm sure that one day, Joe, hell will freeze over, but the 'foreigners' of the LVP will still be Jews, the Americans will be Americans, the Irish the Irish... so whichever of the chiefs of the secret service made this allegation to Maitland you can rest assured that he meant a Jew.
Have your parade, Joe, but don't blame me for the rain.

[A.P. Wolf]

James Maitland adds more detail to his contacts with the Metropolitan Force in this article 'An American in London' featured in 'The Daily Inter Ocean' on November 19th 1888.
The detail describes an Inspector he had known since about 1882 who was promoted to a Chief Superintendent six months before he wrote the piece in the Inter Ocean - about June or July of 1888 - and this inspector had spent 12 years in Philadelphia and Baltimore.
Any ideas who this is?

There is much of general interest in the article relating to the police and Whitechapel Murders.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/maitland1.jpg

[Joe Chetcuti]

A.P. and Nats,

Besides the Chief of the Secret Service, there was a Colonel named Hughes-Hallett who also formulated an opinion about the Ripper shortly after Tabram's death occurred. The Colonel claimed he instantly hunted for a phony medical man in Whitechapel soon after the George Yard murder.

And when Maitland returned to Illinois, what do we see in the Chicago newspaper? We see Whitechapel comments from Maitland and the Secret Service Chief get intentionally placed adjacently to an article concerning an Irish-American Ripper suspect who just happened to be a phony doctor. A man named Tumblety.

Nats, I appreciate the way you explained the customary usage of the word foreigner when it gets spoken amongst the British.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Thanks for posting Maitland's article on Post 59, A.P.

He was a very good writer.

[A.P. Wolf]

Joe, Maitland ran a sweet shop in London, let's not get above ourselves here.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Spiro and I were privately chatting yesterday about whether or not two weapons were used on Martha Tabram. We thought it would be interesting to hear what the military investigator's thoughts on this were. Well as we can read, the Colonel wasn't hesitant about giving his opinion about it:

"...and at night (Tabram's murderer) sallies out with his knife and dagger to feast a homicidal mania bred in him by disease..." - Colonel Hughes-Hallett's quote in the Atlanta Constitution.

The Atlanta Constitution, Boston Globe, Reno Evening Gazette, and San Francisco Chronicle mistakenly printed the Colonel's name as J. C. Hughes-Hallett. They meant to print F. C. Hughes-Hallett.

http://casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.tumblety.1889_book.html (http://casebook.org/ripper_media/rps.tumblety.1889_book.html)

Just click into that and scroll way down to the final chapter entitled "My Vindication" and you'll come across a list of names in that chapter. Tumblety claimed these gentlemen mailed him flattering letters. One of the names Tumblety put down was J. C. Hughes 753 Broadway.

It's fun to wonder if Tumblety got a newspaper copy of the J. C. Hughes-Hallett interview. Or did the NY World reporter who interviewed the quack in January 1889 just happened to show Tumblety the Colonel's interview? Remember, the NY World interviewed both Hughes-Hallett and Tumblety within a four month period.

Was the doctor taking a jab at the Colonel with this J. C. Hughes 753 Broadway thing?

[Robert Linford]

Joe, I'm afraid this one only takes us to 87.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zFKvimYMHloC&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211&dq=753+broadway&source=web&ots=VuHhJuANKl&sig=f4yVOdzco161xKsGS10bG10vAJU

[Joe Chetcuti]

Nats & A.P. have waited all year for my next post. I promised them that I'd publicly type it when August comes around. I just need a few quick shots of whiskey before posting it.

[Joe Chetcuti]

After conducting a long study into posts 45-60 on this thread, it has been determined that Nats & A.P. were probably correct about the term foreigner and how it was used in this particular context.

I think in a few hours from now the Journal of the Whitechapel Society will be distributed at The Aldgate Exchange. This month's issue contains an article that studied into James Maitland's talk with the Chief of the Secret Service of London Police. This conversation took place in August 1888, not long after the Tabram murder was committed. You'll read in the Whitechapel Society's article that an effort was made in an attempt to identify who this chief actually was. Last spring, I conducted a private survey with over 30 Ripperologists about the identity of this man. The results of the survey will appear in tonight's article.

James Maitland was a newsman who inserted himself into the investigation of Tabram's murder. I wanted to do something in acknowledgment of the 120th anniversary of the George Yard crime. I figured that a double-whammy presentation of James Maitland in the Rip & the WS Journal would be a good idea!

I hope everyone has a good time together this evening in London. I heard a nice crowd is expected to greet tonight's guest speaker. And after the meeting is over, everyone is welcome to conga on over to Nats' home for a big party. :thumb:

[Joe Chetcuti]

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1738 (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1738)

Check out the first 30 posts on that thread above, then take a look at posts 18-32 on this JTRForums thread. The debate on this topic is a pretty good one.

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho

Given that it appears Tabram is back on the menu so-to-speak.....why is Pearly Poll not focussed on more as a possible suspect?

The crazy stabbing could theoretically be the work of a woman (working on the basis that a man, especially a soldier, would be able to kill with less than 39 stabs), they were together earlier on, robbery could be a motive and the same Pearly was hardly convincing in her later performances with the police.

I reckon the vertitable Poll could have done it quite easily.

p

[How Brown]

Lars:

That would be a shocker,wouldn't it...if the alleged pubcrawling friend of Tabram's killed her?

You know,it sort of makes sense that someone...not necessarily Poll or any identified Ripper suspect that we know of....would commit a murder with level of or degree of overkill if it wasn't something they weren't comfortable with or had not planned to do in the first place.

Thats a good thought...even for a Norwegian.

Personally, Poll-as-credible character is pretty low on the believabilty meter for me. I don't believe her story about running around with Tabram on the night she was killed.

[Mr. Poster]

Indeeed How......and for the life of me I cannot remeber where but I do seem to recall the suggestion, for some reason, that Pealry was actually a transvestite or something?

In which case the scenario of Tabram being killed by some kind of insane knife wielding Victorian cross dressing prostitute with a taste for squaddies and back street whores is strangely appealing when viewed through the foggy lens of the sort the sort of Hollywood rubbish we use to contextualise such things these days.

p

[How Brown]

Lars...umm..the person who first suggested that was this crazy,but cool lady named Nina Brown...my wife.

I had to corrrrrrrrrect her on that...no internet for three days...actually she discovered that she was wrong. Connally is in the census as a woman and unless she fooled the census taker, Poll was just a masculine looking woman...or a lady that we call in the States, a woman in comfortable shoes.:kiss:

[Mr. Poster]

Zoinks......I must apologise for maligning Pearly then.

Still.......I reckon she should have been suspected of having done Martha. Its hardly unknown for women to go at it, especially after drinks, nor is it unknown for them to go totally overboard in their killing (as in so many other things).

One only has to look at the Scissors Sisters case in Dublin recently.

Restraint was hardly on the agenda there either.

p

[How Brown]

Hi Cellie !

While you aren't shoveling snow down yonder, may I suggest giving more thought to the 42 day gap between the beginning of Inspector Reid's inquiry into the alleged "double guy event" and the end result: zero evidence of it ever occurring.

The first place Reid had to investigate was the White Hart pub. No one remembered them being there. No one.

That someone was murdered and said to have been in that bar on that night, to me, would have found every barfly in London claiming to have seen at least Tabram there...and Poll probably stood out like a sore thumb.

But no one did...:playball:

[Sam Flynn]

Poll was just a masculine looking woman...or a lady that we call in the States, a woman in comfortable shoes.... or a "geezer-bird" as some of my Sarf London mates would call them.

Incidentally, Pearly Poll was admitted twice to the Whitechapel Infirmary with respiratory infections - bronchitis and laryngitis - once in April 1888, once in June of that year. I dare say she might have suffered from chronic huskiness which, allied to her height and "masculine" appearance, would have made her appear even more butch than she perhaps was.

[How Brown]

Thanks for the info on Poll,Sammy.

Just for the record,my man, wasn't it reported she had a masculine appearance? Not that what you have provided is irrelevant to the perception she was a little bit left of feminine in any regard.

[Sam Flynn]

Just for the record,my man, wasn't it reported she had a masculine appearance?
Indeed, How - by the East London Observer. My point was that her throat problems might merely have added to her perceived "butchness".

[How Brown]

I know my hoarse throat and gravelly tonsorial tone has people thinkin' I'm a bit butch too,Sam...tee hee. I see how they could have assumed she was "a woman in comfortable shoes".

Thanks for the ELObserver source.:kiss:

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho

Interestingly enough......there are a number of paralells between Pearly and the eminently innocent GH that have been used to incriminate him whilst Pearly wafts blemish free through this tale....

She didnt come forward despite being the last to see Martha (JtR must be the only case in history where not coming forward means you are innocent and coming forward damns you)

She only surfaced after being winkled out of her hole

She had an odd tale about being beaten with a stick

No one could corroborate her sorry tale

She hardly distinguished herself as a witness when in th eline up.

Bit odd methinks. Bot her story and her handling in the greater Ripper universe.

p

[How Brown]

Lars:

A couple of thoughts here...good post by the way.

That one(Poll) hasn't been considered culpable in the crime ( the Tabram Outrage) is likely a matter of her gender and that it is usually considered beneath what a woman would or could do. I also think that her abstinence from stepping forward for the amount of time that she did.... was more likely a result of her being drunk the morning after the murder and possibly being ill until the time she did come forward OR her doing some thinking in order to concoct a plan to get attention or 15 minutes of fame OR her finding out that PC Barrett mentioned a Guardsman being seen in the vicinity that night and thus providing her the opportunity to go running off with the bullshit story to the police.

[Sam Flynn]

Drunk stabs woman 177 times:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/7928568.stm

[How Brown]

Sam:

Thanks for the link.

177 stab wounds in a controlled environment as opposed to 39 in someone else's building seem to me to be the same critter.

For a Guardsman to take all that time and effort to whack Tabram,when,as someone has mentioned elsewhere I believe, it should have been easier for a man who used a bayonet or had a bayonet to dispatch someone...makes the Guardsman story even less believeable. I can't prove otherwise,but I really am down on the whole Guardsman-as-killer theory with Tabram.

Looky looky at these gems from within Sam's story:


1."Arthur Pitt-Pladdy has been warned he faces a life sentence.."

Well,thats a relief that he was "warned". At least he can prepare a nice Amazon book list to have sent to his cell..."How To Make Dilaudid ( synthetic heroin) From Those Little Odds n Ends In Prison".


2."The court heard that Pitt-Pladdy, who was born in Edmonton, north London, was jailed several times from 2003 onwards after being repeatedly convicted of harassment and breaching a restraining order made in relation to his mother.
He was also convicted in 2006 of actual bodily harm after he held a man while another man burned him with a lighter.


They ought to send that little creep over to a real prison...like Rahway or Walla Walla. They'll have that jerk in a dress,slippers,and tossin' salads at a record pace over here.

[Mr. Poster]

hi ho

Pearly and Martha are out drinking and get sloshed, picking up two men. They go into different areas and Pearly ends up getting beat with a stick. Presumably she isnt paid by the wielder unless it was a bit kinky. Miffed....she returns to Martha who, having finished with her man, maybe refuses to share her money or buy drink and ends up knifed by drunken and slightly cheesed off beaten Pearly. Couldnt be simpler. Given that we know that prostitutes carried knives.

As to her being drunk or sick the next day and not appearing.....why is that OK for Pearly and yet has been deemed an "improbable" excuse for the less incriminated GH....unless one wants to argue that being a man utomatically incriminates him?

p

[How Brown]

Good line of thought Lars..

One problem,perhaps,with this is that the only source for Tabram and Poll being out on the night in question is Poll.

Redundant,I know, but nevertheless Reid kept that inquiry open for 6 weeks until mid-September and not one person...especially and most importantly, not one person from the bar she and Tabram were alleged to have been in came forward.

One other damning bit of data is that Poll claims to have been barhopping for approx. 1 and 1/2 hours with these dudes....yet identifies a Guardsman with an alibi.

How many street prosses spent 1 1/2 hours with a client in those days? Yet...Poll can't identify the man.

[Mr. Poster]

Out of interest How.....just how did Pearly come up on the radar in the first place?

My understanding was that the police dug her up......? What put them on her tail?

p

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi,
Amazing i started a thread on casebook a couple of weeks back, speculating that Pearly Poll , was a possible suspect.
I received not a single reply, i guess i should have started it on forums.
Have a read folks.
Mr Poster.. great minds thing alike.
Regards Richard.

[How Brown]

Lars:

She went to the Commercial Street Police Station on August 9th...but I do not remember whether she went on her own own volition or was encouraged by someone else.

Maybe someone has other info on the reason she went in the first place.

I've gotta go to the podcast right now...lemme look later buddy.

[Mr. Poster]

Apologies Richard N.

But I do not frequent Casebook very much at all and therefore did not see your thread.

Had I done so....I would have fully mentioned your notion within this thread.

But indeed ... great minds think alike.

p

[Nemo]

I have seen a newpaper report that says that Martha's murder was almost identical to a murder that occurred on the previous Bank Holiday

To what murder (if any) is this referring to?

[SirRobertAnderson]

Awhile ago I suggested only half in jest that perhaps PP was a man. I may bump that old thread.

If this sick and twisted idea was by chance correct, it kicks her candidacy up more than a few notches.




One other damning bit of data is that Poll claims to have been barhopping for approx. 1 and 1/2 hours with these dudes....yet identifies a Guardsman with an alibi.

How many street prosses spent 1 1/2 hours with a client in those days? Yet...Poll can't identify the man.

[Mr. Poster]

HI ho

Man or not.......PP is well up there. Given the description, she hardly appears slightly built and more than a match for chunky Martha?

And in the echelons of Ripper characters....there aint many who were last to see the victim, couldnt prove their story, didnt come forward til ferreted out, was in a line up.....and couldnt identify a man who apparently beat her with a stick and presumably also had a rub of the relic.

Odd indeeeed....

p

[SirRobertAnderson]

HI ho

Man or not.......PP is well up there.

And in the echelons of Ripper characters....there aint many who were last to see the victim, couldnt prove their story, didnt come forward til ferreted out

p

Look at how much has been made of Hutch for the same......

Throw in the manly appearance and the husky voice and I say you have a legit suspect for the Tabram murder at the very least.

The interesting thing to me is why she/he doesn't pop up on suspect lists.

[How Brown]

Bob & Lars:

Poll, by her own words, was the last traceable person to see Tabram that night. No one,of course, can disprove she was with Tabram....but that the alleged bars she and Tabram frequented would not be investigated to any degree by Reid is absurd. THATS why I think that Poll's story is a lie....and you guys may be right in that she should be considered a suspect after all.

They may not have given the thought of a woman being such a brutal killer back in 1888....but they did have contemporary female killers who were pretty damned brutal, if not necessarily those who doled out 39 or so stab wounds.

38 less than fatal stab wounds....hmmm...anyone smell the less than brawny female hand at play here?

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1031018/Hunt-murderess-stabbed-young-woman-death-just-yards-Jacqui-Smiths-house.html

p

[How Brown]

Lars:

Thanks for the link.

[Nemo]

I am in a bit of a rush and can't seem to find the posts that stated it is not known what clothing Tabram had on...

So I just wanted to post this minor reference to her at least wearing a corset - which may have influenced the location of some of the stab wounds - It is labelled "Victim's corset stabbed through"


4828



It is from the Illustrated Police News of Saturday August 18th 1888

[How Brown]

Nemo:
Nina tells me that she was wearing a corset,but she doesn't remember whether the corset was a bone corset...which could have deflected the thrusts of the killer's blows.

Is that what you were looking for?

[Nemo]

Hi Howard

No - I think there was a recent post about the use of the small knife and the depth of clothing etc and I think it was mentioned that we have no indication what she was wearing

..so I thought I would mention that corset

I might have dreamt that - lol

[Currerbell]

do we know if there were transvestite prostitutes in the LVP? Well I believe anything went back then but in public?? Im not so sure...

[Nemo]

Hi Currebell - at post No.66 (#66) in this thread you will find mention of a transvestite Polly

Regards

Nemo

[SirRobertAnderson]

do we know if there were transvestite prostitutes in the LVP? Well I believe anything went back then but in public?? Im not so sure...

When this topic came up way back when I believe A.P. found reference to a certain part of the East End where different pleasures were on offer.

This might be a found memory, but I'm pretty sure he made mention of it either here or over on the Casebook well over a year ago.

[How Brown]

Bobby:

Wasn't it Bird Cage Walk or something like that?

[SirRobertAnderson]

Bobby:

Wasn't it Bird Cage Walk or something like that?

That sounds familiar, How. Or was it Saint James Park ?

I remember that I went and bought Judith Walkowitz's, Prostitution and Victorian Society because it discussed this point. Unfortunately, as you know all too well my library is a disaster area and not accessible at the moment. :banghead:

Perhaps JSTOR has something on the subject.

But I do recall A.P. pointing out a place where stranger meat was on the menu. It'd be interesting to see if the other Two Brewers (not the one on Brick Lane) was anywhere near such haunts.

[Currerbell]

Thanks Nemo/Robert

[Ultra Violet]

hi ho

Pearly and Martha are out drinking and get sloshed, picking up two men. They go into different areas and Pearly ends up getting beat with a stick. Presumably she isnt paid by the wielder unless it was a bit kinky. Miffed....she returns to Martha who, having finished with her man, maybe refuses to share her money or buy drink and ends up knifed by drunken and slightly cheesed off beaten Pearly. Couldnt be simpler. Given that we know that prostitutes carried knives.

p


In that scenario, wouldn't they have made quite a noise? Sloshed people aren't particularly considerate to people sleeping in the neighbourhood. And they sure would have had an argument about the money or drink before the knives were pulled.

Or we have to assume that the Hewitts indeed heard some racket going on but preferred to not get involved, thinking it was business as usual and then later on lied to the police.

What do you say?

[Currerbell]

Im sure one of Pearly's mates may have been told the story if she did attack Martha though...makes sense as to why Pearly disappeared and was never heard from again...

[How Brown]

Dear UV:

Thats a legitimate question to all this...that someone who was intoxicated would not be as cognizant of the amount of noise they make as would someone in a sober state of mind. Good thinking lady.

Its also worth considering if one of the two or both of the Hewitts could have heard something in the landing and refrained from getting involved, basically lying about whether they heard anything or not that evening. Other instances throughout history ( The Kitty Genovese murder in NYC ) come to mind regarding apathy and actual eye or earwitnesses.

However, with that in mind, it may also be just as likely, despite the differences in how Tabram was murdered ( no evisceration for example ) from the following murders.... that she was either sleeping at the time her assailant went to work or dispatched with little audible noise emanating from her person while being stabbed because the killer had not been drinking at all. One of the staples of the Guardsmen-with-Poll & Tabram theory is that they had been out drinking...

Its one of those little details...the fact you mention,which has come to my mind before.....regarding the sobriety issue that makes me think less of the Guardsman-as-Tabram-killer theory. Had the alleged Guardsman been the attacker, he may not have been intoxicated,but its difficult to come to terms with an argument that he himself had not been drinking and not made sufficient noise on the landing with whatever amount of alcohol he had in his system.

Nice point UV.

Between you and me, I have little faith in the Poll story of the 4 going out and whooping it up at bars on August 7th. I believe that its likely that Poll HAD engaged in revelry with Tabram and clients before...but I do not ( cannot prove this of course) believe the scenario as offered by Poll on that night in question.

[Celesta]

Hi Cellie !

While you aren't shoveling snow down yonder, may I suggest giving more thought to the 42 day gap between the beginning of Inspector Reid's inquiry into the alleged "double guy event" and the end result: zero evidence of it ever occurring.

The first place Reid had to investigate was the White Hart pub. No one remembered them being there. No one.

That someone was murdered and said to have been in that bar on that night, to me, would have found every barfly in London claiming to have seen at least Tabram there...and Poll probably stood out like a sore thumb.

But no one did...:playball:


Sorry, I just saw this for the first time. I'm sure every barfly would've been swearing they saw Tabram. So Poll's inability to identify the soldiers she claimed were there, might suggest that they never were there. Remember she was hazy about the uniform details. PC Barrett's having encountered the guardsman was coincidence. All the speculation about why she didn't identify anyone, including being fearful for her own life, would fall by the wayside. Poll's been suspected before of course.

[String]

Poll's been suspected before of course.

Money motive?

[How Brown]

Cellie:

I for one have never seen a theory in a Ripper related book which pointed the finger at Pearly Poll, but there have been suggestions on message boards ( such as by Mr.Poster- Lars sometime ago ) in that direction.

Has anyone else ? String? Anyone?

[Celesta]

There was something, How, I think on CBook, but it was, as you say, speculation. No, I don't recall it being in actual print anywhere either, though I've got a ways to go before that mother lode of literature plays out. Didn't mean to imply it.

String, What do you mean, "money motive?" Do you mean by authors hypothesizing about Poll, or are you referring to money changing hands in 1888, after the murder?

[String]

No I just meant a robbery gone a bit wrong. I know it was a frenzied attack but if it was a woman doing the attacking and Martha was a big girl then it might have taken quite a few attempts to kill her.
Was there any money found on Martha?

[How Brown]

String:

None that I recall reading about. The available data relative to Martha's murder may be found in the Ultimate by SPE/KS, pages 8-22.

I might be wrong,String, but I think that the official medical reports from Killeen are not available. I seem to remember this mentioned years ago. What we do have at our disposal has been fully provided by SPE/KS in the Ultimate.

[How Brown]

Saw the headline and figured it would be of interest for the wording alone.
As if there was a remote chance that someone with 39 wounds on their body, nine to the throat alone, would have done that to themselves.

THE SUPPOSED MURDER IN WHITE CHAPEL .
Daily News
Friday, August 10, 1888

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/tab2-1.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/tab3.jpg

[Mags]

I wonder if, before Polly Nichols, the authorities had a blanket policy of playing down murders?

I don't want to say covering up,because I'm not thinking about conspiracy here, just keeping things as low key as possible to avoid stirring up the natives.

[How Brown]

Mags:

As good a suggestion as that is on your part, I can't recall one with the headline "supposed murder" off the top of my head. THATS what attracted me to that clipping.

They didn't, or so it seems, hesitate to call a spade a spade back in the LVP when it came to murder. Crimes which were significantly more sad or traumatic, such as child murder, tossing granny down a well, suicide at the dinner table, things of that nature are found on a regular basis in the papers with no "guesswork" such as is found in this Tabram related article.

[Jon Simons]

Hi How

I think the headline "supposed murder" was used because the inquiry was adjourned.