Stuart Cumberland & The "Florence Maybrick Diary"

[How Brown]

According to the soon to be released book by Spiro Dimolianis ( excerpts from this book may be found on Google), Jack the Ripper & Black Magic
we find the following statement on page 19 :

"An alleged three volume Florence Maybrick diary, in which James Maybrick was named as Jack The Ripper, was brought to (Stuart) Cumberland's
attention in September 1889, and given his interest in the crimes of Jack The Ripper, added some interest to the shaky provenance
of the modern "Maybrick Diary?", published in 1993 as the Diary of Jack The Ripper ( later proven to be a hoax). ( Page 19- S.Dimolianis).

Stuart Cumberland appeared in several London and American newspapers beginning in the Fall of 1888 up into the early part of the 1890's. He claim to fame is that he claimed the "gift" of clairvoyance.

First of all...where did the author get the idea that there was a contemporary diary...in three volumes,no less, declaring James Maybrick was Jack The Ripper in 1889 ?

[How Brown]

Debs brought this to my attention ( I honestly didn't recall it ). Much appreciated,lady....

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/maybrick_diary/mhguide.html

Having read this and having just skimmed through Feldman's "The Final Chapter", I still didn't locate any clear reference to Maybrick being named in his wife's alleged diary as Jack The Ripper or that the letter from Liverpool ( August 19, 1889) suggests Maybrick and the Ripper were one and the same.
Maybe its just me....

[Chris G.]

Debs brought this to my attention ( I honestly didn't recall it ). Much appreciated,lady....

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/maybrick_diary/mhguide.html

Having read this and having just skimmed through Feldman's "The Final Chapter", I still didn't locate any clear reference to Maybrick being named in his wife's alleged diary as Jack The Ripper or that the letter from Liverpool ( August 19, 1889) suggests Maybrick and the Ripper were one and the same.
Maybe its just me....

I just scrolled through Melvin Harris's dissertation but don't see where her alleged diary Florence claimed that her husband was the Ripper. That claim is new to me. Can you point me to the part of Harris's dissertation where this is discussed?

Thanks

Chris

[How Brown]

Chris:

Likewise, I don't see that either...in case you were asking me.

I just rephrased the title of the thread.

[Chris G.]

Thanks, Howard. Similarly I don't see how Spiro can claim that a supposed connection between Stuart Cumberland allegedly seeing Florie Maybrick's rumored diaries would in any way lend credence to the Maybrick Diary that came to light in the early 1990's, with a whole century between the two. It sounds as if this is yet more fantasy.

All the best

Chris

[How Brown]

CG:

I'd bet that Spiro put that line about the Maybrick Diary being "proven to be a hoax" to please some of those who he lists in the credits...although no such thing has occurred to date, regardless of whether anyone dismisses it as having any relevance to the Case.

[Nemo]

I must have found a preview other than Google books the other day as it gave a large section from the bibliography

Strangely, the page doesn't appear on my web history

I'll search it out again

[How Brown]

Strangely, the page doesn't appear on my web history

That's black magic for ya, Nemo...:tea:

[Nemo]

Could be Howard, you know how these thing work

But any curse has probably rebounded as I just found it again...

http://books.google.com/books?id=p3we4fvYXeIC&printsec=frontcover&dqtique+#v=onepage&q&f=false

You can gather quite a bit from his references

He says that Donston probably blended different occult texts and ideas, and expounded on the theories of Diosy to come up with his suggested use for the uteri taken from the victims

I'll save those comments for another thread when I get the book - bit steep on the price though

Stewart says in in it that Spiro explains how Donston got out of the hospital or something along those lines

Are there some prison diaries from Mrs Maybrick in which it is a matter of opinion whether she refers to her husband as JtR?

[How Brown]

Stewart says in in it that Spiro explains how Donston got out of the hospital or something along those lines

My copy is on the way,Neems...the price is steep...but I figured that another attempt to "make" D'onston a suspect was in the making. Spiro is on record as claiming that D'Onston "could have" killed Nichols since he was in proximity of the London Hospital.
My sister 'could have been" my brother if she had any balls ....:rolleyes:...same sort of logic.


Are there some prison diaries from Mrs Maybrick in which it is a matter of opinion whether she refers to her husband as JtR?

I don't think so Nemo.
My interest stems from the fact that in the line I provided is a reference to a three volume diary from 1889 which implicates James as Jack.

[Chris G.]

Hi Howard and Nemo

The prison diaries of Mrs. Maybrick were rumored to have existed but no one credible has seen them or proven that they existed or might still exist, and nor what what they contained. In her autobiography, My Lost Fifteen Years (1904), Florence of course said nothing about her late husband James being Jack the Ripper though she maintained her innocence and her shock at the way she had been treated. As mentioned on Chris Jones' website http://www.jamesmaybrick.org (http://www.jamesmaybrick.org/), after she stopped touring the United States making public appearances, she gradually got into financial difficulties. That might have been an opportunity to spring upon the startled world the revelation that her husband had been Jack the Ripper, but she didn't do it. Instead, she faded away in obscurity in the cottage she had built for herself in Gaylordsville, Connecticut, having resumed her maiden name of Chandler. It was there that she died in 1941.

All the best

Chris

[Nemo]

Thanks for that Chris

Maybe she was doing a Forbes Winslow and writing THE diary after the fact

It's not so far fetched when you know Forbes Winslow was connected to her case and I think he was once requested to mentally assess Mrs Maybrick but didn't do so - please correct me on that if I got that wrong Chris

Such a diary would have been extremely sought after at the time for publication, so unless she wrote it and kept it completely secret, I doubt she would have been able to keep it from the press

[Chris G.]

Thanks for that Chris

Maybe she was doing a Forbes Winslow and writing THE diary after the fact

It's not so far fetched when you know Forbes Winslow was connected to her case and I think he was once requested to mentally assess Mrs Maybrick but didn't do so - please correct me on that if I got that wrong Chris

Such a diary would have been extremely sought after at the time for publication, so unless she wrote it and kept it completely secret, I doubt she would have been able to keep it from the press

Hi Nemo

This is the first I have heard of any connection between Florence Maybrick and Forbes Winslow, although it hardly surprises me. The man seemed to involve himself in everything, including coming up with multiple contradictory theories about the Whitechapel murders. Chris Jones does not mention Forbes Winslow on his website although I understand he is coming out with an expanded revision of his Maybrick A to Z so maybe there will be something on the alienist in there.

All the best

Chris

[Nemo]

Hi Chris

I'm sure Forbes Winslow officialy spoke out for Mrs Maybrick when he went to America and I believe was considered a champion of her cause (by himself probably)

I'll try and find a reference for you

[Nemo]

It was a petition campaign Chris

Here you go...


Atlanta Constitution
Georgia, U.S.A.
17 June 1894

From an article entitled "Future of the race" A great Londoner
The importance of Dr. Forbes Winslow is overshadowing. A representative of this paper called upon him at his residence, 33 Devonshire Street, N.W., three weeks ago, and the utterance that followed was made rapidly and enthusiastically. It should be said that almost every criminal case in Great Britain where insanity figures is referred to Dr. Winslow. It was to him that the home secretary turned for an opinion on Mrs. Maybryck's (sic) responsibility when the queen was petitioned to commute her sentence of death, and it was owing to the doctor's answer that the life of the unfortunate woman was spared.

From his own "Recollections of Forty Years"...

Immediately after her conviction, becoming con-
vinced that it was a most unjust verdict, I determined
to do my very best to agitate in the matter, and to
obtain a reprieve for this lady.

On the Qth of August I commenced to agitate in
the press on the case, and in a letter of that date I
said : " Seldom has a case caused so much public
excitement as that of Mrs Maybrick. It is discussed
far and wide, and only one opinion appears to exist
that she has been convicted on insufficient evidence.
The medical experts for the defence have been appar-
ently ignored. The jury have posed as moralists and
ignored the vital issue as to the poisoning by arsenic."
I concluded this letter as follows : " It is the duty



LEGAL EXPERIENCES 147

of every Englishman to agitate forthwith to save a
woman convicted without one tittle of evidence from
the hands of the public hangman."

Mr MacDougal and myself were most vehement on
the matter, and, having worked together in a similar
case known as the " Penge mystery," which created
nearly as much excitement as the Maybrick case,
we decided to adopt a similar plan here. It was
stated at the time that the only chance Mrs Maybrick
had of a reprieve was in the Queen's deep aversion
to the infliction of capital punishment on a woman.
Petitions were at once commenced, not only in Liver-
pool, but in all parts of the country, to which thousands
of signatures were attached, and which were prepared
for the then Home Secretary, Mr Matthews. A report
was current at the time that the costs of the defence,
which amounted to upwards of four thousand pounds,
had been paid by Mr Brierley ; also that a jury of
matrons had been sworn to decide another issue,
which might postpone the execution should the
efforts to secure a respite prove ineffectual. It was
proved, however, that there was no possible ground
for either of these rumours. Her mother visited her
on the Saturday subsequent to the trial, and found
her in a complete state of collapse, mental and bodily.
In addition to the special petition to which I have
alluded, the Licensed Victuallers drafted one on their
own account, the chief clauses of which were that
there was no direct evidence of the administration
of arsenic by Mrs Maybrick to her husband

[Nemo]

Washington Post (Washington, D.C.)
9 June 1913

NOTED ALIENIST IS DEAD

Dr. L. Forbes Winslow Was Expert In Maybrick and Fleming Cases
London, June 8.

Dr. L. Forbes Winslow, who was an expert engaged in the principal lunacy investigations during the last quarter of a century in England and in many of the United States, died today from heart disease.

Dr. Winslow was born in London in 1844 and was lineal descendant of Edward Winslow, first governor of New Plymouth, one of the leaders of the Pilgrim Fathers who left England in the Mayflower in 1620.

Among the most celebrated English cases in which Dr. Winslow participated were the Whitechapel crimes, the Old Kent murder, the Penge mystery, and the case of Mrs. Maybrick. In the United States he investigated the Mrs. Fleming murder case and others almost as notorious.

[Nemo]

The Washington Post
26 June 1911

INSANITY EXPERT DESCRIBES MURDERERS HE HAS KNOWN
The Washington Post
26 June 1911

From the New York Times

Dr. Forbes L. Winslow was the founder of the British Hospital for Mental Disorders in London. He is vice president of the Medico Legal Congress, New York, and chairman of the psychological department.

He engaged in the principal lunacy investigations during the last quarter of a century in England; and he has also been engaged in a similar way in the United States, being retained as expert in several cases.

Among his chief cases in England may be mentioned the Penge mystery, the Balham mystery, the Old Kent murder, the Taylor case, the case of the Rev. Dr. Dodwell, who shot at the master of rolls, the Whitechapel crimes, Mrs. Dyer's case, Mrs. Maybrick's case, having charge of the medical petition, and presented it in person; Devereux's case, and the Lord Townshend lunacy inquiry.

[Paul Butler]

Hi How and all.

It is true that an alleged three volume diary of Florence Maybrick's was touted around various publishers in 1889. I don't think Cumberland ever got to see them in the flesh, and as we don't know a single word of what they allegedly contained, (although it was said that the contents were rather sensational), we can't possibly know if Florrie hinted at any suspicion that James was in fact Jack.

What I do find a little bit interesting is that it was said that the handwriting varied considerably between the volumes, but all three were apparently penned by the same hand.

It has been suggested by some that our present diary could be volume 3 with all earlier entries removed..!

Regards to all.

Paul

[Chris G.]

Thanks for this information, Nemo and Paul.

Chris

[Nemo]

There's only 181 pages of the main text in Spiro's book, and I bet a few of those are illustrations

I hope it's not too brief

[Chris G.]

There's only 181 pages of the main text in Spiro's book, and I bet a few of those are illustrations

I hope it's not too brief

A lot of it might be written in that magic invisible ink. :nod:

[How Brown]

CG,Neems...

I've set up a thread for the book.

[Caroline Morris]

Of course, if it ever did transpire that the three Florie diaries not only existed in 1889, but fingered her old man as none other than Saucy Jacky, they'd say the modern forgers must have known about it and based their fake diary around this 'sensational' snippet of previously unpublished information.

In truth, it would be incredible luck for Maybrick fanciers to find any such hard evidence that Flo really did think he was JtR. But for me it would strengthen my gut feeling that someone wrote the diary in the immediate wake of the trial - someone who possibly read Flo's diaries and ran with the idea of turning Jim into the very Devil, since his widow had been turned into a she-devil.

So Spiro seems to have got his wires a bit crossed here.

The trick is not to dabble with the diary if one can't be arsed to get one's facts straight. It makes one wonder what other facts have been buggered about with.

Love,

Caz
X

[How Brown]

If your observation is true, Caz...about the diary being concocted following Mrs. Maybrick's trial....another mystery would be why it never appeared until it was unleashed in the early 1990's.
Seems like a lot of work all for naught.
Then again, the unreleased manuscript of Bernard O'Donnell's took years to put together and apparently, all it took for Mr. O'Donnell to decide to not release it to the public, was the release of Donald McCormick's 1959 work, The Identity of JTR.

Either our boy has his wires crossed Caz..or his disdain (& imagination) for the Maybrick saga, shared by many, was workin' overtime.

I wonder whether...as an aside and I won't elaborate on it any further...if there are any words in the Maybrick Diary which were not in use at the time...such as "zipper".

[Caroline Morris]

Hi Howie,

Well Spiro is pissing on his own cornflakes by repeating a baseless claim that the real Flo Maybrick wrote about the real Jim being the real ripper - if he wants his readers to believe, at the same time, that the 'diary' found in 1992 has no connection with reality whatsoever. :confused:

Or is he actually trying to be objective, albeit by offering duff information on either side?

If our dear diarist (or satirist?) was your typical late Victorian hoaxer, one might expect the horrid thing to be deposited in a place where it was expected to be found sooner rather than later, and to give the finder a very nasty surprise - if only until it became obvious they'd been 'had' (when the handwriting was compared with Jim's, for instance).

The place could be significant and highly relevant to the text, with next to no chance of tracing the book itself back to the hoaxer - a bit like the kidney that plopped its way through Lusk's letterbox and for all the sender knew could have been disposed of without a word and no publicity, ever. If a highly literate medical student could have gone to the trouble to wind Lusk up with that gruesome parcel and letter, with no guarantee of a reaction, why could a similarly enterprising student or Punch writer not have done the same with the diary, depositing it in Battlecrease House, for a Maybrick family member, servant or new occupant to come across and muse over?

Once deposited, the diary hoaxer may have had no chance of going back to it, or to engineer its discovery, and could have died waiting for news that anyone else even knew of its existence. It would have been old news by then anyway, and its satirical impact would have been lost. Who could have guessed what a pandora's box would eventually be opened when Mike Barrett got his hands on it and Paul Feldman got in on the act? You couldn't make it up.

My idea is quite sane compared with the known facts.

Love,

Caz
X

[Caroline Morris]

I wonder whether...as an aside and I won't elaborate on it any further...if there are any words in the Maybrick Diary which were not in use at the time...such as "zipper".

As usual, nothing like that has been proved, Howie.