Hebrephenic Vs Paranoic [Archive] - JTRForums.com - THE place to be for All Things Ripper

Nemo

11-04-2011, 07:41 PM

www.schizophrenia.com is slightly more up-market Jeff

Here's a nice summary of the "old" term "hebephrenic" schizophrenia...

Hebephrenic schizophrenia, more commonly known as disorganized schizophrenia, is one of the subtypes of schizophrenia.

It is a complex and chronic psychiatric disorder. The term “hebephrenic” is an older term which is still used in some classifications of psychiatric disorders with regards to this type of schizophrenia

The primary symptoms include significant impairment in thought processes, speech, behavior, and emotional expression and response.

Characteristics and Symptoms

There are three prominent symptoms which are characteristic of hebephrenic schizophrenia:

Disorganized speech
Disorganized speech may be evidenced in a variety of ways. For example, when responding to a question, the person may give an answer which has little or no relevance to the question. S/he may abruptly jump from one topic to another while talking, or make up words as s/he goes along. In particularly severe cases, the person’s words may be complete nonsense, sometimes referred to as “word salad”.

This impairment in speech is due to significant impairment in the person’s thinking. His/her thought processes are often illogical, and don’t connect very well. Hence it shows up in his/her speech.

Hebephrenic schizophrenics often experience something known as “thought blocking”. They may stop suddenly while talking, as if the thought abruptly left them. They may express feeling as if someone or something removed the thought from their mind.

Disorganized behavior
When a schizophrenic’s behavior is considered “disorganized”, it may mean s/he is unable to or lacks the motivation to start or carry out a given task, such as preparing a meal or getting dressed. Their behavior may be bizarre, such as wearing layer upon layer of clothing in the middle of summer. Or, their behavior may be grossly inappropriate, such as acting out sexually in public. They may completely neglect personal grooming and have a very unkempt appearance.

Blunted or inappropriate emotional expression and response
A person with hebephrenic schizophrenia will often appear to have no emotions. His/her face may look completely blank, and his/her speech may be monotone. At times, s/he may have an emotional response which is completely irrelevant to the context, such as laughing or giggling suddenly, when nothing funny has occurred.

Additional Diagnostic Criteria
In order to meet the diagnosis of schizophrenia, regardless of the type, these other criteria must also be met:

A marked decline in functioning, after the onset of symptoms, in at least one of the primary aspects of the person’s life (e.g., work, school, relationships, self-care)

Signs of the disorder are present continuously for a period of at least 6 months. For at least one month of that time period (less if they subside due to effective treatment), the active-phase symptoms (e.g. delusions, hallucinations, extremely disorganized behavior, etc.) must be present.
Schizoaffective disorder (a disorder similar to schizophrenia but with prominent mood episodes) or other mood disorder have been ruled out

Other Characteristics
Other characteristics often exhibited by individuals with hebephrenic schizophrenia may include poor job or school performance, social withdrawal, lack of coordination, odd postures, childlike silliness, or grimacing. While they may have hallucinations or delusions, they are not pronounced. Since they are often quite impaired, living independently may be impossible for them.

written by Dr. Cheryl Lane, PsyD

Jeff Leahy

11-04-2011, 07:48 PM

Hebophrenics can still experience paranioa which is common within the condition, it can take place between 18-25 years

Your not making a case here Nemo

Yours Jeff

Nemo

11-04-2011, 07:53 PM

Jeff Leahy

11-04-2011, 07:59 PM

I'm not making a case Jeff, that would be me trying to prove a negative

If I were making a case it would be that the Ripper was a paranoid schizophrenic suffering from delusions

I'm genuinely interested in what you/Lars have to put forward that would indicate that Kosminski/ the Ripper suffer from hebrephenic schizophrenia

What I think is as irelivant as what Tom Wescott thinks..

Its what Dr Lars thought...that is important

He was given the case notes and all information pertaining to Aaron Kosminski and came to teh conclussion the Aaron was suffering Hebophrenic Schizophrenia and I spoke to another expert who confirmed that..

So I'm just going by what I've been advised and I'm quoting my sources.

If you'd like to disagree with that then please quote yours

Yours Jeff

Nemo

11-04-2011, 11:48 PM

Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times

You have stated a number of times that Aaron is a hebephrenic schizophrenic and you just said you came to that conclusion independently from Lars due to you spending years studying and "specialising" in the subject

Well, is it too much to ask you to explain that in detail? Why do I need to provide sources to do that?

Have you formed an opinion as to why the conclusion is correct, or did you just blindly accept it as you are making out now?

In your learned opinion, is a HS more likely to be the Ripper than any other type of schizophrenic?

Let me help you - because you haven't really got a clue about schizophrenia have you?

You haven't spent years "specialising" in the subject have you?

When someone asks you to explain your confident assertion, you decline and just point them to Lars work, which is fair enough, that's where I will look before I respond further - is it available?

In the meantime, we find that Lars states (according to you yourself) that he can't really assess Kosminski without having met and worked with him - I'd agree

Lars and "Dr X" state that a HS is no more likely to commit this type of crime than any other

If Aaron was found to be a HS then I think that would actually go against him being the Ripper

If it's a theory that Aaron was a HS then that's fine

It's you touting it as a fact that strengthens Kosminski's candidacy as the Ripper and tagging Lars' name on it as an expert that is out of order

There are people reading these boards who may value your opinion, and in my opinion you are leading them astray

It's that simple

Tom_Wescott

11-05-2011, 12:19 AM

I confess that the 'Dr. Lars' talk had me perplexed for a while. I thought perhaps Mr. Poster had returned...with a medical degree. God help us if that happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Jeff Leahy

11-05-2011, 06:06 AM

Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times

And where i have requested that you demonstrate, show source for that opinion, you fail to do so.

You have stated a number of times that Aaron is a hebrephenic schizophrenic and you just said you came to that conclusion independently from Lars due to you spending years studying and "specialising" in the subject

NO. Dr Lars came to the opinion that Aaron Kosminski was a hebophrenic Schizophrenic. I simply see no reason to contradict that opinion.

Well, is it too much to ask you to explain that in detail? Why do I need to provide sources to do that?

Because its you that are making the claim its wrong. So I'm asking you to explain why.

Have you formed an opinion as to why the conclusion is correct, or did you just blindly accept it as you are making out now?

I see no reason to contradict his conclusion. Its you that seem to believe that Hebophrenic and paraniod Schizophrenia are seperate illness. Where as I see paranioa as a syndrome of Hebophrenic Schizophrenia. And as we know Aaron heard 'vioces' telling him the movement of all mankind...it strikes me that this is a clear symptom of paranioa and hebophrenic schizophrenia.

In your learned opinion, is a HS more likely to be the Ripper than any other type of schizophrenic?

YES

Let me help you - because you haven't really got a clue about schizophrenia have you?

I first started work on a program called 'Insdie the mind of Jack the Ripper' in 2003-4, long before coming to the Definitive Story. So my interest in this particular area of teh Ripper case is a long one. But I am an amiteur ripperologist not an accademic. As a producer I seek professional opinion.

You haven't spent years "specialising" in the subject have you?

Read above. Its an area that interests me and I have sort expert opinion on.

When someone asks you to explain your confident assertion, you decline and just point them to Lars work, which is fair enough, that's where I will look before I respond further - is it available?

Actually my research was done with another expert who due to his posistion was unable to contribute to the program except in an advisory capacity. Working in this field is somewhat sensitive. And making public connection to Jack teh Ripper and schizophrenia would be highly irresponcible. Schizophrenic's are not more dangerous than other members of society and it would be wrong to demonize a vonerable section of society.

The JtR case is unique and so rare that you can count similar occurances (depending how you do so) in almost single figures in the past 120 years.

In the meantime, we find that Lars states (according to you yourself) that he can't really assess Kosminski without having met and worked with him - I'd agree

YES. Both Dr Lars and Dr X have stated that to draw the conclusion that Aaron was Jack the Ripper from the available evidence is NOT possible. They would have to undertake one to one study and even then perhaps never reach a conclusion. What is being discussed is the POSSIBILITY that Aaron Kosminski may have been Jack the Ripper. And in that there appears to be nothing specific, from what is known that rules out the possibility. His age and syptom's and his lack of violence once removed from environment all appear consistant with what is known about Schizophrenia.

Although Dr X raised several aspects of what is known as being unusual. Schizophrenics by and large have low sex drives. Compulsive masterbation is not a typical symptom.

Lars and "Dr X" state that a HS is no more likely to commit this type of crime than any other

NO. the precise quote is 'Nomore likely than other members of society to commit violent crime.' I'd say that was fairly specific.

If Aaron was found to be a HS then I think that would actually go against him being the Ripper

Yes you keep saying this but then provide no source or rreason for your conclussion. Which is very frustrating.

If it's a theory that Aaron was a HS then that's fine

Why is that fine? Dr Lars gave his professional opinion that from what he had read on teh subject (and he was provided with all existing case notes) that he felt Aaron Kosminski suffered a form of schizophrenia which he would describe as hebophrenic Schizophrenia.

That was his professional opinion.

It's you touting it as a fact that strengthens Kosminski's candidacy as the Ripper and tagging Lars' name on it as an expert that is out of order

No. I've simply said that theres nothing in what is known that excludes Aaron Kosminski as a potencial perpetrator of these crimes.

Given that its been argued extensively that because Aaron doesnt appear to have been violent enough to have committed the JtR murders. i think this is a valid point to highlight. In itself it doesn't make Aaron Kosminski jack the Ripper its just another piece of the jigsaw I feel doesn't exclude him from being so.

There are people reading these boards who may value your opinion, and in my opinion you are leading them astray

In what way? You keep saying this but provide know evidence or explanation for your reasoning.

It's that simple

No it isn't.

Yours Jeff

Jeff Leahy

11-05-2011, 07:06 AM

"Duckworth says, "Again, it's complicated. The truth is that most people are completely benign. But, another truth: There is a small subset of the population that can be dangerous, usually people who are also using drugs or alcohol. And, around 10 percent kill themselves, which is inherently violent."

There is evidence that suggests that psychoses can and do fuel violent behaviors, but the actual numbers don't justify a fear of all people with schizophrenia. People with psychotic symptoms account for only 5 percent of violent crime, and some estimate the number closer to 1 percent."

Please be aware that I have consistantly pointed out, how rare violent schizophenic or psychotic behaviour actually is....

My arguement also balances the very rare and uniquie occurance of the Ripper murders which now leaves me to believe the possibility that Jack killed more women than the suggested cannon.

"Schizophrenia is a mental disorder that is caused within people. This disorder takes the person away from reality and in addition they start going in a fantasy arena of their own. 1-2% to the population is affected on this disorder worldwide. There are several , among which disorganized schizophrenia is just about the most dangerous ones. This disorder can also be known as hebephrenic schizophrenia. It will always be cased after the age of 25 playing with rare cases it will always be observed earlier also."

I would think that Aaron's age of development of schizophrenia was quite key in his Dr LArs thought process. Late teens early twenties actually being the typical age range of Hebophrenic schizophrenic on-set.

Yours Jeff

Nemo

11-05-2011, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Nemo
Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times

Originally Posted by Jeff
And where i have requested that you demonstrate, show source for that opinion, you fail to do so.

I provided sources on the other thread that indicate you contradict yourself when referencing Lars work, so I think I've adequately shown that you are stating things that rely on your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion

Where did your statement originate that a hebephrenic schizophrenic is the most likely sub category of schizophrenia to commit these type of crimes?

Dr Lars himself might be concerned that you are claiming to quote him when you clearly are not

If you want me to explain why I personally think the symptoms of HS do not adequately match the known symptoms of Kosminski's illness then that is no problem, I'll get around to that shortly. I was just waiting to hear your detailed analysis so I know what I'm arguing against, but you seem loathe to express it

Meanwhile, if I can show you a report from an "expert" that says the Ripper is likely a paranoid schizophrenic, would you latch on to that report and claim it as truth? Is the crucial factor the commenter's expertise?

Would that negate Kosminski's candidacy as the Ripper in your mind? Or are you now saying Kosminski belongs to a subset of hebephrenic schizophrenics that are also paranoid schizophrenics?

You previously stated that you had a Eureka moment when you related the periodic nature of hebephrenic schizophrenia to the Ripper's timetable of attacks

In your sort of expert opinion, is a schizophrenic any more likely to commit violent crimes during psychotic periods than in periods of lucidity?

I note you don't seem so sure of the diagnosis and conclusions that can be drawn from it now

If you are saying that it is only a possibility that Kosminski was a disorganised schizophrenic, then I can go with that, as all things are possible

If you would like to detail why you agree with Dr Lars that Kosminski was possibly a HS then we have a starting point on which to discuss other possibilities

Until then, I can only assess what is required to diagnose a person as being a hebephrenic schizophrenic and compare it with what is known about Kosminski, and they don't adequately match IMO

Even if they did match and we could diagnose Aaron as a HS, they don't indicate in any way that Aaron had periodical attacks of psychosis that explain the Ripper murders taking place at the weekends, and they do not in any way indicate that Aaron was suffering from a condition that makes him more likely to have been the Ripper than anyone else

If you are trying to say that you've discovered that nothing negates Kosminski being the Ripper, then that's a bit pointless as we knew that already

There's nothing that negates Lewis Carroll being the Ripper is there?

I'll give you a clue in regard to HS and Kosminski - "impairment"

Regards

Nemo

Jeff Leahy

11-05-2011, 10:03 AM

[COLOR="Navy"]Originally Posted by Nemo
Jeff, I'm not disputing Lars' work as I haven't seen it. I'm just disagreeing with you stating certain things as fact when they are in reality your incorrect interpretation of someone's opinion that you contradict at times

Regards

Nemo

You seem to be under some bizarre delussion that Schizophgrenics can be bashed into neat stereo types when nothing could be further from the truth.

And again you've failed to answer any of my questions. So we will simply have to wait and see what the hell it is your going on about.

I will try and reply when I have more time later.

But there is and has never been any contridiction in my position on Dr Lars.

He claims that Aaron was probably suffering a form of schizopphria called disorganised or hebophrenic.

This term is over simplistic as Hebophrenics can also be Paraniod and Aaron clearly was...

And the big problem is the term Schizophrenia inself which many experts would claim miss leading. The illness being more like SYNDROMES creating broad spectrums.

Anyway I'll just sit back and give you enough rope.

Yours Jeff

Nemo

11-05-2011, 11:23 AM

Well, I'll leave it to other readers to make up their minds about whether it is you or I who fails to answer questions. I think what I've said is quite clear, and what you are and have been saying is contradictory and at times incoherent, which, by coincidence may have been a trait Kosminski suffered from

You just put yourself forward again as a "sort of expert" due to your interest and years of research, yet you fail to understand the meaning of a basic term like "syndrome"

Anyway, to open the discussion to others, here's a modern definition of the symptoms present that would lead to a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia courtesy of www.schizophrenia.com

Feel free to chip in with any examples of hebephrenic schizophrenics you may have come across, whether diagnosed as such as part of a syndrome or otherwise

Paranoid Schizophrenia
Paranoid schizophrenia is the most common type of schizophrenia in most parts of the world. The clinical picture is dominated by relatively stable, often paranoid, delusions, usually accompanied by hallucinations, particularly of the auditory variety, and perceptual disturbances. Disturbances of affect, volition, and speech, and catatonic symptoms, are not prominent.

Examples of the most common paranoid symptoms are:

a) Delusions of persecution, reference, exalted birth, special mission, bodily change, or jealousy;

b) Hallucinatory voices that threaten the patient or give commands, or auditory hallucinations without verbal form, such as whistling, humming, or laughing;

c) Hallucinations of smell or taste, or of sexual or other bodily sensations; visual hallucinations may occur but are rarely predominant.

Thought disorder may be obvious in acute states, but if so it does not prevent the typical delusions or hallucinations from being described clearly.

Affect is usually less blunted than in other varieties of schizophrenia, but a minor degree of incongruity is common, as are mood disturbances such as irritability, sudden anger, fearfulness, and suspicion. "Negative" symptoms such as blunting of affect and impaired volition are often present but do not dominate the clinical picture.

The course of paranoid schizophrenia may be episodic, with partial or complete remissions, or chronic. In chronic cases, the florid symptoms persist over years and it is difficult to distinguish discrete episodes. The onset tends to be later than in the hebephrenic and catatonic forms.

Diagnostic Guidelines

The general criteria for a diagnosis of schizophrenia must be satisfied. In addition, hallucinations and/or delusions must be prominent, and disturbances of affect, volition and speech, and catatonic symptoms must be relatively inconspicuous.

The hallucinations will usually be of the kind described in (b) and (c) above

Delusions can be of almost any kind of delusions of control, influence, or passivity, and persecutory beliefs of various kinds are the most characteristic.

Includes:

paraphrenic schizophrenia

Differential diagnosis
It is important to exclude epileptic and drug-induced psychoses, and to remember that persecutory delusions might carry little diagnostic weight in people from certain countries or cultures.

Excludes:

Involutional paranoid state
Paranoia

Leaving Kosminski aside for a moment, what I am interested in (what I'm on about Jeff) is whether any suspect being a hebephrenic schizophrenic would in any way accentuate his candidacy for being the Ripper, or would it lessen the likelihood of his being the Ripper? Can we tell either way?

That was the original premise of the thread but Jeff is running around with the goalposts at the minute so it's probably a non-starter

The ferry back over the Rubicon costs quite a bit

Jeff Leahy

11-06-2011, 05:58 AM

What said nemo is that some experts in the feild are rethinking how schizophrenia works and that it might be a syndrome. This is a statement of fact not opinion.

'If schizophrenia is a clinical syndrome rather than a single disease, the identification of specific diseases within the syndrome would facilitate the advance of knowledge and the development of more specific treatments. We propose that deficit psychopathology (ie, enduring, idiopathic negative symptoms) defines a group of patients with a disease different from schizophrenia without deficit features, as the deficit and nondeficit groups differ in their signs and symptoms, course, biological correlates, treatment response, and etiologic factors. These differences cannot be attributed to more severe positive psychotic symptoms or a greater duration of illness in the deficit group. The alternative interpretation that patients with deficit schizophrenia are at the severe end of a single disease continuum is not supported by risk factor and biological features data, but there is a need for independent replication of these findings. We suggest a series of studies designed to falsify one of these hypotheses, ie, multiple diseases vs a single disease. '

What this means is that rather than pigeon holing people into specific groups patients can be placed on a spectrum.

'mechanisms that might cause schizophrenia. Other Sections▼
WHAT SORT OF DISCONNECTION SYNDROME?DYSFUNCTIONAL INTEGRATION OR SPECIALISATION?THE DISCONNECTION HYPOTHESISIMPLICATIONSCONCLUSIONReferencesWHAT SORT OF DISCONNECTION SYNDROME?The idea that dysfunctional integration underlies schizophrenia is as old as its name, coined by Bleuler (1) to denote the disintegration of psychic processes. The disconnection hypothesis considered here states that schizophrenia can be understood in cognitive terms, and in terms of pathophysiology, as a failure of functional integration within the brain. Functional integration refers to the interactions of functionally specialised systems (i.e., populations of neurons, cortical areas and sub-areas), that are required for adaptive sensorimotor integration, perceptual synthesis and cognition. Functional integration is mediated by the influence that the dynamics or activity of one neuronal system exerts over another and therefore rests on the connections among them. The pattern of connectivity is, in turn, a function of epigenetic activity and experience-dependent plasticity. The idea, developed below, is that the pathology of schizophrenia targets the modulation, facilitation or consolidation of changes in connection strength. This is distinct from an abnormality of plasticity per se and highlights aberrant regulation of where and when synaptic plasticity can occur. This dynamic regulation can be attributed, in part, to ascending modulatory neurotransmitter systems, like the dopaminergic system.The notion that psychosis can be explained by a pathology of extrinsic connections (cortico- cortical and cortico-subcortical connections that constitute white matter tracts) can be attributed to Wernicke, who referred to disruptions of these 'organs of connection'. This implies an anatomical disconnection. This is not the sort of disconnection syndrome proposed for schizophrenia. In schizophrenia, the disconnection is thought of as explicitly functional, not anatomical (2). More precisely, the disconnection is in terms of effective connectivity (3) as opposed to anatomical connectivity. The abnormal interactions among neuronal populations will clearly have infrastructural correlates, but these are likely to be expressed at the level of synaptic specialisations, cellular morphology and cytoarchitectonics, not necessarily at the level of white matter fasciculi.'

you nemo seem to have a fixed idea about schizophrenia while the rest of the world excepts very little is known about the illness and how it works.

'On the one hand, there is strong evidence that schizophrenia has a biological basis, because it runs in families, which indicates a genetic component. There are also subtle abnormalities in brain structure. Treatment with drugs, particularly those that target the neurotransmitter dopamine, can reduce the symptoms, but the mechanism of this effect is unknown and unfortunate side effects can and do occur.
On the other hand, the characteristic symptoms of schizophrenia are firmly in the domain of the mind. Patients report hallucinations (false perceptions) and delusions (false beliefs). A patient may hear his own thoughts spoken aloud or hear voices discussing him. A patient may believe that alien forces are controlling his or her actions or inserting thoughts into his or her mind. The challenge for the neuropsychologist is to show how a disorder in the brain can lead to these bizarre experiences. My own starting point for understanding schizophrenia is the observation that, in some cases, the "voices" that patients hear are clearly their own. This observation puts the problem in a slightly different light: the question is not why patients hear voices, but why they mistake their own voice for that of someone else. This question applies to other symptoms as well. For example, patients with delusions of control report that their movements are alien; they feel as if they were being made by someone else. This is not as startling as it may at first appear. After all, every action we perform causes changes in our sensations. When we speak, we hear the sound of our own voice. When we move our arm, there are changes in kinesthetic and tactile sensations. But there is nothing in the nature of these sensations that distinguishes them from signals caused by external events - the sound of someone else's voice, someone else lifting our arm.'

We should have an open mind to the possible causes and effects of the illnees. Dt Lars used the term hebophrenic as it is a generally used catigory that people can understand. i will give the list of hebophrenic traits later. but by and large i personally agree with his accessment.

Dr X was far less willing to commit. As i've alreadt explained ands will go into more detail, some of the traits attributed to aaron dont fit. But thats probably because the three catigories you are trying to false on us are woe fully inadiquate. I will continue later.
yours jeff

Nemo

11-06-2011, 07:04 AM

i will give the list of hebophrenic traits later. but by and large i personally agree with his accessment.

Dr X was far less willing to commit. As i've alreadt explained ands will go into more detail, some of the traits attributed to aaron dont fit. But thats probably because the three catigories you are trying to false on us are woe fully inadiquate. I will continue later

Finally some headway - thanks Jeff, I look forward to it

Is that supposed to read "force" instead of "false"? Either way it is incorrect, I'm not trying to push anything, and it's not my fault if the categories are inadequate is it?

I'm not presumptuous enough to make one of my own so I have to rely on the most up to date information from the psychological experts (Which now classes these symptoms as "disorganised schizophrenia" rather than "hebephrenic schizophrenia")

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of your previous confidence in the premise that Kosminski being a hebephrenic schizophrenic somehow increases his chance of being the Ripper, and trying to assess how Aaron was diagnosed as suffering from HS in the first place

It's you making varied assertions that gives the appearance of someone trying to force an opinion on others

However, your confidence seems to have dropped somewhat...

In reference to Dr Lars - "...by and large i personally agree with his accessment""

In reference to "Dr X" - "Dr X was far less willing to commit"

In reference to Aaron and HS - "some of the traits attributed to aaron dont fit"

That is simply what I've been saying from the start and for which you seemed to get upset and aggressive over, slating my opinion as worthless against that of an "expert"

It's also obvious to anyone with a brain that generally schizophrenia is a syndromic affliction

It's not me that has sub-categorised it further is it?

If experts have formulated a set of symptoms and labelled it hebephrenic schizophrenia, then we are able to assess that aspect in regard to Kosminski according to diagnostic guidelines, and as you (now) say, some traits don't fit

Do you know how many of the listed traits are required to be present to enable a diagnosis of hebrephenic schizophrenia?

I'm surprised if don't know these facts off the top of your head since you've studied Dr Lars work enough to enable you to agree only in parts, together with your statement that you've studied mental illness for years and am some sort of expert in the subject

I suppose we'll just have to wait for you to swot up on the internet

I'm expecting a cut/copy/paste type of answer because you seem unable to express your own opinion, even though it will be accepted graciously because I will take you at your word and put some faith in your opinion, as you are a self-proclaimed expert in the subject with years of specialisation behind you, whereas I realise that I'm just the amateurish Nemo whose opinion counts for very little

However, if you think that an expert's opinion stands just because of his expertise and qualifications, then your years of Ripper studies have been wasted - it does explain to me though why you latch onto Anderson's assessment because, unable to form a conclusion of your own, it enables you to assert something with confidence, referring questioners to the original speaker rather than being able to counter any argument yourself by way of reasoning

Jeff Leahy

11-06-2011, 01:19 PM

Is that supposed to read "force" instead of "false"? Either way it is incorrect, I'm not trying to push anything, and it's not my fault if the categories are inadequate is it?

Yes you are. Your trying to TICK boxes. Does he have the slur, does he stand on one foot and say 'bibble' ? ah then he must fit box A, B and F.

You cant approach an illness like schizophrenia in this way as people suffering the illness rarely fit into neatly defined boxes.

I'm not presumptuous enough to make one of my own so I have to rely on the most up to date information from the psychological experts (Which now classes these symptoms as "disorganised schizophrenia" rather than "hebrephenic schizophrenia")

OK you've read a couple of internet sites and discovered hebophrenic and disorganized schizophrenia are one and the same. I just have a feeling Dr Lars was aware of that.

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of your previous confidence in the premise that Kosminski being a hebrephenic schizophrenic somehow increases his chance of being the Ripper, and trying to assess how Aaron was diagnosed as suffering from HS in the first place

Well this is pretty simple really Hebophrenic schizophrenia is one of the catigories considered potentially dangerous and Dr Lars places Aaron in that catigory. Simple.

It's you making varied assertions that gives the appearance of someone trying to force an opinion on others

NO . its you trying to tick boxes and miss understanding schizophrenia as an illness. The three original catigories given to schizophrenia by Bleuler one hundred years ago have moved on, they were expanded to eight and as I have repeatedly tried to explain recently been suggested as a Syndrome rather than a single illness.

However, your confidence seems to have dropped somewhat...

No it hasnt.

In reference to Dr Lars - "...by and large i personally agree with his accessment""

Dr Lars was asked to give his accessment to camera for a channel FIVE audience. He tried to keep that accessment in simple terms that were clear.

Arons age 22. Many of his symptoms and his later condition and burn out are all fairly typical of Hebophrenic schizophrenia. I see no reason to despute his conclussion.

What you seem tro be arguing is that Hebophrenics cant also be Paraniod, and while I'd except its less common with HS suffers its not unheard of.

Thus I see4 no reason to disagree with Dr Lars accessment

In reference to "Dr X" - "Dr X was far less willing to commit"

Dr X was asked to look at Aarons case notes in private, and was giving his experience from various case studies.

Not everything that either expert was in total agreement but then they had different briefs. And experts in all fields do from time to time have differences.

In reference to Aaron and HS - "some of the traits attributed to aaron dont fit"

Yes I've consistantly argued that Aaron Kosminski appears to have traits not typical of Hebophrenic Schizophrenia or Schizophrenia in general. I've also agrued that this isnt surprising as individual case studies arnt a question of Box ticking as Nemo seems to beleive. Every case is different and requires accessment on its own merits.

By and large Schizophrenics have low sex drives. There are references to Aaron suffering compulsive masturbation and there might be more than one reason for this but it certainly isnt a question of box ticking.

That is simply what I've been saying from the start and for which you seemed to get upset and aggressive over, slating my opinion as worthless against that of an "expert"

No. It is you that have been constistantly agressive throughout this exchange. Largely because you seem to want simplistic answers to a complex set of questions.

It's also obvious to anyone with a brain that generally schizophrenia is a syndromic affliction

It's not me that has sub-categorised it further is it?

It was you that said schizophrenia had nothing to do with Syndromes and pooh poohed me. When I responded by giving you information to the contary you accused me of internet searching. Theres no pleasing some people is there?

Again the three catigories you are quoting were first cioned in 1911!

If experts have formulated a set of symptoms and labelled it hebrephenic schizophrenia, then we are able to assess that aspect in regard to Kosminski according to diagnostic guidelines, and as you (now) say, some traits don't fit

No I'm saying that Dr Lars used those terms because they are generally recognised. They have been used for 100 years. However modern research has speculated a far more complex outline of possibilities. A spectrum range that may not fit standard boxes.

Do you know how many of the listed traits are required to be present to enable a diagnosis of hebrephenic schizophrenia?

There you go box ticking again. Its fairly simple to google hebophrenic schizophrenia and gain a list. Aaron fits many of those traits. The most important being his age and general development of his illness which is fairly typical of those atributed to hebophrenic schizophrenia (Hebophenic coming from the greek goddess of youth) Paraniod schizophrenics tend to be older but as I've pointed out consistantly and you have continued to ignore hebophrenic Schizophrenics can occationally exhibbit paraniod behaviour.

'He is guided by an instinct and claims he knows the where abouts of all mankind'

I'm surprised if don't know these facts off the top of your head since you've studied Dr Lars work enough to enable you to agree only in parts, together with your statement that you've studied mental illness for years and am some sort of expert in the subject

Actually I've consistantly said that I spent considerable time studying Aarons case with Dr X.

I suppose we'll just have to wait for you to swot up on the internet

I suppose we'll just have to wait for you to have a personality transplant.

I'm expecting a cut/copy/paste type of answer because you seem unable to express your own opinion, even though it will be accepted graciously because I will take you at your word and put some faith in your opinion, as you are a self-proclaimed expert in the subject with years of specialisation behind you, whereas I realise that I'm just the amateurish Nemo whose opinion counts for very little

I cut a copied a reply demonstrating that new thinking on schizophrenia has given a much wider set of thinking than that possed by Bleuler a hundred years ago....and insidently following a post that you had cut a paisted.

Hypocracy

However, if you think that an expert's opinion stands just because of his expertise and qualifications, then your years of Ripper studies have been wasted -

I lissen to expert opinion where it is good. I see nothing in Dr Lars conclussion which is out of sink with what is known about Aaron. The fact that he explained that in fairly simple terms to a channel FIVE tv audience I see only to his credit.

it does explain to me though why you latch onto Anderson's assessment because, unable to form a conclusion of your own, it enables you to assert something with confidence, referring questioners to the original speaker rather than being able to counter any argument yourself by way of reasoning

I refer you to Dr Lars accessment because it seems reasonable. I've at no time ever suggest that it might not be more complicated.

What you seem intend on doing is ticking boxes on an illness that is far more complex than you are willing to accept.

You have now woffled and blithered on for several posts and failed to actually out line where and why you believe Dr Lars to be incorrect.

Indeed your lack of any contribution on the subject is becoming somewhat annoying.

YOurs Jeff

Jeff Leahy

11-07-2011, 05:49 AM

According to Medilexicon's medical dictionary:

Disorganized schizophrenia is A severe form of schizophrenia characterized by the predominance of incoherence, blunted, inappropriate, or silly affect, and the absence of systematized delusions.
What are the signs and symptoms of disorganized schizophrenia?

Disorganized thinking - the patient is unable to form coherent or logical thoughts. This inability affects speech - during a conversation the individual cannot stick to the subject, and leaps from one disparate subject to another. The speech problem may become so severe that it is perceived as unintelligible garble (a muddle of sounds) to those around him/her. Writing is also severely affected by disorganized thinking.

Grossly disorganized behavior - these symptoms may be so severe that the patient is unable to perform regular daily activities, such as bathing, dressing properly and preparing meals. For example, during a warm day the individual may put on several layers of clothing. There may be unprovoked agitation, or sexual behavior in public. Grossly disorganized behavior may feel normal to the person with schizophrenia, but appears bizarre to those around them.

Behaviors may vary from being child-like and silly, to aggressive and violent.
Inappropriate or lacking emotional expression (flat affect) - flat affect, also known as blunted affect, is sometimes a symptom of people with severe depression or schizophrenia - the individual may show the signs of normal emotion, may even talk with a monotonous voice. However, the face appears blank, facial expressions are significantly diminished. The patient appears extremely apathetic. There may be no eye contact with other people or any display of body language. On some occasions the individual may display behavior with is not appropriate for given situations - this may include bursting out laughing during a serious event.

Apart from the above, which are examples of disorganized schizophrenia symptoms, the patients may also have the following signs and symptoms of schizophrenia:

Delusions - The patient has false beliefs of persecution, guilt of grandeur. He/she may feel things are being controlled from outside. It is not uncommon for people with schizophrenia to describe plots against them. They may think they have extraordinary powers and gifts. Some patients with schizophrenia may hide in order to protect themselves from an imagined persecution. According to Medilexicon's medical dictionary: a delusion is A false belief or wrong judgment, sometimes associated with hallucinations, held with conviction despite evidence to the contrary.

Hallucinations - hearing voices is much more common than seeing, feeling, tasting, or smelling things which are not there, but seem very genuine to the patient.

Social withdrawal - when a patient with schizophrenia withdraws socially it is often because he/she believes somebody is going to harm them. Other reasons could be a fear of interacting with other humans because of poor social skills.

Unaware of illness - as the hallucinations and delusions seem so real for the patients, many of them may not believe they are ill. They may refuse to take medications which could help them enormously for fear of side-effects, for example.

Cognitive difficulties - the patient's ability to concentrate, remember things, plan ahead, and to organize himself/herself are affected. Communication becomes more difficult.

There may also be grimacing, bizarre postures, problems functioning at school/work, and clumsy/uncoordinated movements.

The above symptoms cover the illness Hebophrenic or disorganized schizophrenia.

Most of these traits can be recognised in what is known about Aaron Kosminski. In most situations people suffering this illness are NOT dangerous, or only a danger to themselves. In very rare and exceptional circumstance they can become very dangerous indeed. Normally because of other external circumstance, such as alcohol or drugs of some form or another.

Yours Jeff

Jeff Leahy

11-07-2011, 06:12 AM

Early signs
Sometimes the illness starts suddenly with an acute, and often frightening, episode of psychosis.
However, a first episode of psychosis is often heralded by what health professionals call a ‘prodromal period’ when people’s behaviour begins to change.
People are often depressed or anxious, may find it difficult to concentrate or have problems remembering things, stop seeing their friends, act in a strange and uncharacteristic way, be less interested in study, work or hobbies and care less about how they look. They may become socially withdrawn and spend much more time alone.
They also sometimes have experiences resembling the symptoms of psychosis – hearing voices every now and then, being occasionally suspicious and paranoid for example (see Paranoia page). Not everyone who has these sort of experiences will go on to have a first episode of psychosis. A large proportion of people who do have an initial episode will get better with treatment. Others will improve but may have further episodes.

When considering Aaron Kosminski's condition it is important to remember how the illness develops.

At different stages of the illness different symptoms may appear worse. Because if untreated Schizophrenia is a progressive illness which eventually leads to a catatonic state known as Burn Out.

The illness typically advances in stages known as Psychotic episodes. These can typically last for periods of 18-22 weeks. Although the patient can appear to get better these 'psychotic' episodes if untreated will progress in there severity.

So its important to remember that Aaron would have had different levels of functionallity at different stages of the illness.

ie we are NOT dealing with a one size fits all, but a progressive and changing illness.

Yours Jeff

Jeff Leahy

11-07-2011, 07:08 AM

Just while we are on the subject I thought I'd double check Dr Lars statement and he clearly qualifies himself as follows:

The diagnosis I've reached, also taking into account what happened further down the line, is that he suffered a form of schizophrenia, which I would call hebophrenic schizophrenia. People suffering schizophrenia are not more likely than other people in society to commit violent crime."

In other words Dr Lars clearly qualifies his diagnosis by Aaron's later syptoms which one might argue are more Catotonic than paranoid.

I'll just reproduce the exact wording of Aaron's comital notes:

"He declares that he is guided and his movements altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind, He says he knows the where about's of all mankind."

This stage of Aaron's illness is obviously different to his later state, and is qualified by Dr Lars as "a form of Schizophrenia"

Schizophrenia can indeed take many forms but I see no reason to argue against Dr lars broad accessment.

One should also take on board that it has been argued extensively that Aaron was NOT Schizophrenic but suffering other illnesses such as bipolar and obsessive compulsive syndrome.

So pinning Aaron's illness to schizophrenic is an import start to understanding how. when, and why his illness may have functioned

Yours Jeff

Nemo

11-07-2011, 10:26 AM

There's nothing wrong with searching the internet for information Jeff, I do it all the time

What I was commenting on is your claim to be a psychiatric expert and your familiarity with the claims of Dr Davidson, so why would you need to search the internet just to respond to a few questions which relate to opinions you have already expressed?

I'm quite capable of finding the references you've posted thanks

It's clear you have a basic misunderstanding about how mental or physical conditions are able to be diagnosed

There are certain characteristics that denote a condition and noting and identifying these characteristics is akin to "ticking boxes". What else can it be? Certainly there is some leeway in the diagnosis, especially with mental conditions, but in general the affliction will so fit a set of symptoms as to be able to be labelled as a known condition

I never said Dr Davidson's was wrong Jeff, though I, as you seem to be doing now, would question whether the diagnosis of hebephrenic schizophrenia is able to be made to the exclusion of all other possible mental illnesses

What I'm challenging is your interpretation of Dr Davidson's statements, and only with a view to clarifying whether there is any actual significance in Kosminski being a hebephrenic schizophrenic in regard to the Ripper case which may or may not have been expressed by a learned expert such as Dr Davidson

Subsequent to your claims...

Is a hebephrenic schizophrenic the most likely sub-category of schizophrenic to have committed the Ripper crimes or not?

Being only possibly violent applies to most of the population doesn't it? mentally ill or otherwise

Is hebephrenic schizophrenia the most potentially dangerous type of schizophrenia or not?

How does hebephrenic schizophrenia rather than any other mental illness explain the periodic violence of the Ripper crimes?

Would a hebephrenic schizophrenic be able to interact with the victims in such a manner that they were happy to solicit him?

I've asked you this already but you skirt the issue or contradict yourself, so there's no reason for me to spend time countering your argument because you haven't got one, or refuse to elaborate on it

If you are able to show that your opinions match those of Dr Davidson, then I could fully understand your observations and will apologise and take up the issue elsewhere

However, I'm already satisfied by your responses that there is no such significance except in your own mind and IMO Dr Davidson is unlikely to have come to those conclusions

Anyway, just to help you out a little with some of my own observations in regard to Kosminski being a possible hebephrenic schizophrenic

Kosminski compulsively masturbating (indulging in solitary vices) might just refer to him pulling his plonker in public with no real reference to what he does when alone

Therefore he might be just exposing himself as an example of inappropriate behaviour which is a symptom of hebephrenic schizophrenia

It's mentioned in the symptoms of HS that I laid out for you from www.schizophrenia.com thus... "Their behavior may be bizarre, such as wearing layer upon layer of clothing in the middle of summer. Or, their behavior may be grossly inappropriate, such as acting out sexually in public"

If Kosminski suffered from this affliction and he was also BS man, then the exclamation of "Lipski" may be explained by it being something that entered his mind during a violent attack on a woman, disjointed words and speech also being a symptom

Suffering from schizophrenia may also produce a strange gait, which may also explain the manner of walking of BS man

Let's assume for a moment that Kosminski is a hebephrenic schizophrenic and can also be identified as BS man

Stride is still a contentious Ripper victim and, despite your claims that the Ripper used a different MO with each victim in order to accentuate that a schizophrenic Kosminski might be the culprit, there are consistencies in the MO with Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes and probably Kelly that go against the idea that the Ripper was disorganised in his thinking and unable to retain a train of thought in relation to his MO over a period of weeks

IMO identifying the killer of Stride as a hebephrenic schizophrenic, Kosminski or otherwise, would help negate her candidacy as a Ripper victim

Yours

Nemo

Jeff Leahy

11-07-2011, 12:32 PM

There's nothing wrong with searching the internet for information Jeff, I do it all the time

Yes , but one must also have a brain and some knowledge while making google decessions. And some idea what it is your looking for. You appear to have neither.

What I was commenting on is your claim to be a psychiatric expert When have I ever made this claim? What I have said is that it is an area of Ripperology I'm interested in, and I have spoken to a number of experts on the subject. However you might define 'Expert'. Stop trying to lie about others posistions its very poor form.

and your familiarity with the claims of Dr Davidson, so why would you need to search the internet just to respond to a few questions which relate to opinions you have already expressed?

I have carefully given you what Dr Lars said. I suggest you go back and read it.

I'm quite capable of finding the references you've posted thanks

I'm beginning to wonder? I suggest you read them then.:clap2:

It's clear you have a basic misunderstanding about how mental or physical conditions are able to be diagnosed

NO I DONT. It is you that are being deliberately half witted. I clearly stated that to give a specific diagnosis the psychiatrist would need to spend one to one time with the patient. So we were dealing with possibility rather than specifics. Pay attension.

There are certain characteristics that denote a condition and noting and identifying these characteristics is akin to "ticking boxes". What else can it be? Certainly there is some leeway in the diagnosis, especially with mental conditions, but in general the affliction will so fit a set of symptoms as to be able to be labelled as a known condition

Rubbish. You are dealing with a spectrum which varies from individual to individual you can NOT tick boxes. No two cases are identical which is why it was much more informative looking at individual case studies rather than blanket syptoms that can vary considerably from case to case.

I never said Dr Davidson's was wrong Jeff,

Thanks god for that we are finally getting somewhere.

though I, as you seem to be doing now, would question whether the diagnosis of hebephrenic schizophrenia is able to be made to the exclusion of all other possible mental illnesses

You'll have top ask Dr Davidson as I have repeatedly said. You seem to be looking at a list and because not everything on that list fits, assuming Dr Davidson might be wrong.

I'm simply saying that Schizophrenia is a degenorative illness so while the sufferer may fit certain traits at certain times over teh corse of that illness the sufferer may change considerably. Something you seem unable to take on board with your fixed box ticking stand piont.

What I'm challenging is your interpretation of Dr Davidson's statements, and only with a view to clarifying whether there is any actual significance in Kosminski being a hebephrenic schizophrenic in regard to the Ripper case which may or may not have been expressed by a learned expert such as Dr Davidson

Subsequent to your claims...

Dr Davidson reached the conclusion that Aaron Kosminski was a Hebophrenic Schizophrenic. FACT

I see no reason to question his accessment given what is known about Hebophrenic schizophrenia.

Hebophrenic Schizophrenics are potencially dangerous (though most commonly not)

Dr X was clear that he would expect some additional catalist if some were to become dangerous (drugs Alcohol)

I have pionted out repeatedly that the Ripper crimes are very rare. But in my opinion Hebophrenic Schizophrenia is a good match for this type of crime.

Though I admit I can find few statistics to support that statement as Ripper crimes are so rare there are few statistics on the subject. But thats not my fault NEMO.

Is a hebephrenic schizophrenic the most likely sub-category of schizophrenic to have committed the Ripper crimes or not?

Yes I think it is....but as I've just said there are few statistics on this kind of serial killer. Hebophrenics making up between 10 and 15% of the schizophrenic spectrum, the majority of who are completely harmless.

Paraniods are even rarer 1-2%....

The rest lets guess 83% are unlikely to commit lust style serial killings.

Being only possibly violent applies to most of the population doesn't it? mentally ill or otherwise

Ah! the pennys finally droped well done.

Is hebephrenic schizophrenia the most potentially dangerous type of schizophrenia or not?

I've given that answer several times now. Hebophrenic's are potentially dangerous.

I've not seen reliable statistical information to suggest one type of serial killer is more or less likely than another to commit this very rare type of murder. So rare I doubt that there is reliable statistical information.

How does hebephrenic schizophrenia rather than any other mental illness explain the periodic violence of the Ripper crimes?

What I claimed is that 'psychotic episodes' familiar with all types of schizophrenia (and I've also stated there may only be one type, better discrbed as various sybdromes) may explain the 18 - 22 week period known as teh autumn of terror.

Psychotic episodes arnt unique to hebophrenic or Paraniod. But Aarons age would be more likely to suggest the early stages of Hebophrenic.

Aaron's ability to function in this period can only be guessed at. But as I've said and you've continually rejected, we can only say what might be possible from other cases.

Would a hebephrenic schizophrenic be able to interact with the victims in such a manner that they were happy to solicit him?

Its a possibility.

I've asked you this already but you skirt the issue or contradict yourself, so there's no reason for me to spend time countering your argument because you haven't got one, or refuse to elaborate on it

Your now throwing your toys out the pram. I've given you a straight answer.

You have no counter answer or position obviously.

If you are able to show that your opinions match those of Dr Davidson, then I could fully understand your observations and will apologise and take up the issue elsewhere

Dr Davidson claimed Aaron Kosminski was a Hebophrenic Schizophrenic.

I have said I see NO REASON to dispute that claim.

this is very simple NEMO.

However, I'm already satisfied by your responses that there is no such significance except in your own mind and IMO Dr Davidson is unlikely to have come to those conclusions

Dr Lars Davidson independantly reach the conclussion that Aaron was suffering hebophrenic Schizophrenia. He draw that conclussion largely from Aarons later medical condition, as I previously posted.

Dr X did not go so far simply stating Aaron was suffering a form of schizophrenia.

Anyway, just to help you out a little with some of my own observations in regard to Kosminski being a possible hebephrenic schizophrenic

Kosminski compulsively masturbating (indulging in solitary vices) might just refer to him pulling his plonker in public with no real reference to what he does when alone

Therefore he might be just exposing himself as an example of inappropriate behaviour which is a symptom of hebephrenic schizophrenia

Then we have to consider what is said by Anderson and McNaughten. Compulsive masturbation seems to be a key link. And yes inapropriate behaviour can be as you say a syptom of hebophrenic Schizophrenia.

To my knowledge there is no mention of this after his comital. Dr X stated that low sex drive was more typical of sschizophrenia, but then schizophrenia if untreated is a progressive illness something you seem unable to grasp.

It's mentioned in the symptoms of HS that I laid out for you from www.schizophrenia.com thus... "Their behavior may be bizarre, such as wearing layer upon layer of clothing in the middle of summer. Or, their behavior may be grossly inappropriate, such as acting out sexually in public"

So it would be a possible fit...yes

If Kosminski suffered from this affliction and he was also BS man, then the exclamation of "Lipski" may be explained by it being something that entered his mind during a violent attack on a woman, disjointed words and speech also being a symptom

It could be. But as I have made clear nothing can actually be gleaned from this statement without knowing its context. Its all guess work.

Suffering from schizophrenia may also produce a strange gait, which may also explain the manner of walking of BS man

Yep your correct, or BS could have just been drunk.

Let's assume for a moment that Kosminski is a hebephrenic schizophrenic and can also be identified as BS man

Stride is still a contentious Ripper victim

Only in your opinion. She is one of the Cannon. Swanson considered her a victim. Perhaps Kosminski killed Stride and not the others but I'd say that was statistically unlikely.

and, despite your claims that the Ripper used a different MO with each victim in order to accentuate that a schizophrenic Kosminski might be the culprit, there are consistencies in the MO with Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes and probably Kelly that go against the idea that the Ripper was disorganised in his thinking and unable to retain a train of thought in relation to his MO over a period of weeks

Well yes there are similarities Smith to Coles they were all prostitutes.

Yet there are distinct differences.

All I've said is that there is no reason to believe Serial killers dont adapt their MO to suit their purpose and Goals.

IMO identifying the killer of Stride as a hebephrenic schizophrenic, Kosminski or otherwise, would help negate her candidacy as a Ripper victim

Yours Nemo

I've never said it would. I've simply said that its another interesting peice of the jigsaw puzzle....

Trying to draw comparison between Lewis Carol and Aaron Kosminski is breath taking in its stupidity.

What we are dealing with is the claim by two senior policeman that a seemingly harmless imbacial was Jack the Ripper. A claim pooh poohed by many of my greatest heros including Martin Fido, who have suggested Jack the Ripper if mad would have been obviously violent...

What I have suggested is that Aaron Kosminski durring early stages of his illness could have possibly commited these crimes. Even though his asylum records show him as harmless..Its a possibility.

Lewis Carrol.........Bar humbug

Yours Jeff

Howard Brown

11-07-2011, 12:37 PM

Lets keep the train on track ...and discuss the issue without personal shots over this, shall we ?

Jeff Leahy

11-07-2011, 12:44 PM

Lets keep the train on track ...and discuss the issue without personal shots over this, shall we ?

Fine by me Howard. I only send them back, its not cool to open fire.:nono:

Yours Jeff

Chris G.

11-07-2011, 01:00 PM

I have just noticed the quote at the head of this thread:

20. Schizophrenia "Schizophrenia was first identified about 1806. This might be something to think about as we ponder whether the man who was Jack the Ripper could have been a schizophrenic.” - Christopher George

I don't remember ever writing or uttering these words. I have said and written many memorable things :becky: but my mind is a blank slate as to whether I have ever used these words. Is it a different Christopher George? Where did the quote come from? Since Nemo started the thread, maybe Nemo can answer. This enquiring mind wishes to know. Thanks in advance. :)

Cheers

Chris

Howard Brown

11-07-2011, 01:04 PM

CG:

You'll have to ask Tim, because he added all the little comments and quotes which accompany the Motives & Reasons threads...

Jeff Leahy

11-07-2011, 01:16 PM

http://www.schizophrenia.com/history.htm

This link gives a pretty good background to the History of Schizophrenia.

My suggestion that modern thinking is suggesting schizophrenia is more akin to a series of syndromes, came from an interesting set of programs on radio four a couple of years ago. But I've been unable to find the links...I will keep looking.

Yours Jeff

Jeff Leahy

11-07-2011, 01:39 PM

I've just been trying to think of a way to explain why some syptom's of Schizophrenia might match and others might be different.

Although different I suffer a condition called dyslexia which is fairly common, but effects people in different ways. The reason for this is taht it is different parts or conections to the brain which are damaged.

So though many people experience Dyslexia (which is not cureable) There illnesses are unique to the individual. My particualr problem is with certain letter combinations which appear identical to me (ie-ei and io-oi).

Yet I have no problems with maths or pyshic's...I just cant spell.

My sister who writes for a living cant tell left from right and I have a nephew who is a qualified lawyer who doesnt know the months of the year. Dyslexia has many forms and syptoms some of which match some of which dont.

Although different, Schizophrenia also effects different parts of the brain, often runs in families and expresses itself in different ways to different people. If untreated it is also degenerative so different syptoms may arrise or disappear as the illness progresses. You dont wake up one morning a fully formed Hebophrenic, it takes years (if untreated) to develop through various phazes which again will differ from individual to individual.

The syptoms placed on websites are guide lines not fixed rules. Only individual accessment by a qualified person can give a accurate diagnosis and possible individual treatment which will vary from individual to individual.

You cant think of an illness like schizophrenia in the same way as the measles, mumps or catching the flue. And even then physical illnesses will affect people differently.

Trust that helps

Yours Jeff

Nemo

11-07-2011, 04:58 PM

Yes, finally some headway

Thanks for that Jeff, it's reasonably clear and entertaining to boot!

So Dr Lars Davidson suggested that Aaron Kosminski may have suffered hebephrenic schizophrenia full stop.

I have a much clearer understanding now how the further speculation and inconsistencies arose thanks

I could actually go with Kosminski killing Stride, being affronted at her presence at that location, and because of the "lashing out" nature of the attack

It is noted that hebephrenics sometimes lash out violently, though it seems more connected with their frustration at being unable to communicate

The affliction need not necessarily have been a factor as it is reported he had a great hatred of prostitutes anyway

If he was in control of his actions in 1888 then he might well be the Ripper,but if he's acting in the manner of a hebephrenic schizophrenic then that's less likely to be so IMO

If he committed murder and later was coherent enough (which I think he was at that point in time) to realise he may be hanged as the Ripper, it may have accelerated the onset of paranoid schizophrenia

Jeff Leahy

11-07-2011, 05:31 PM

Yes, finally some headway

Why do I have the feeling we are not?

Thanks for that Jeff, it's reasonably clear and entertaining to boot!

Yes I agree, but probably from a different perspective this end...

So Dr Lars Davidson suggested that Aaron Kosminski may have suffered hebephrenic schizophrenia full stop.

No he did not. I posted what he actually said please pay attention: "The diagnosis I've reached, also taking into account what happened further down the line, is that he suffered a form of schizophrenia, which I would call hebophrenic schizophrenia. People suffering schizophrenia are not more likely than other people in society to commit violent crime."

I have a much clearer understanding now how the further speculation and inconsistencies arose thanks

My pleasure. Purhaps you could share your learned experience.

I could actually go with Kosminski killing Stride, being affronted at her presence at that location, and because of the "lashing out" nature of the attack

This is far to simplistic. I again refer you to Aaron's comital notes which you have continually failed to comment on: "He declares that he is guided and his movements altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind, He says he knows the where about's of all mankind."

It is noted that hebephrenics sometimes lash out violently, though it seems more connected with their frustration at being unable to communicate

Again this is far to simplistic a conclusion. Hebophrenics can become dangerous, especially during psychotic episode. But serial killers of this kind are extremely rare and its probable other factors would be involved in this complex type of case..as suggested by Dr X

The affliction need not necessarily have been a factor as it is reported he had a great hatred of prostitutes anyway

Again its possible but your creating a very box ticking simplistic analysis.

If he was in control of his actions in 1888 then he might well be the Ripper,but if he's acting in the manner of a hebephrenic schizophrenic then that's less likely to be so IMO

Again your miss understanding the development of the illness, which is progressive and proceeds in waves called 'Psychotic episodes', you don't wake up a fully formed Hebophrenic, paraniod or Catotonia Schizophrenic why is this proving such a problem?

If he committed murder and later was coherent enough (which I think he was at that point in time) to realise he may be hanged as the Ripper, it may have accelerated the onset of paranoid schizophrenia

Except for the problem that Dr Lars prognosed Aaron as Hebophrenic and this conclussion seems highly improbable.

Where have you gotten Paranoid Schizophrenia from? Are you now claiming to know more than Dr Lars Davidson having read some symptoms on an internet site? Or are you going to share the info you claim to be sitting on?

Apart from the above, which are examples of disorganized schizophrenia symptoms, the patients may also have the following signs and symptoms of schizophrenia:

Delusions - The patient has false beliefs of persecution, guilt of grandeur. He/she may feel things are being controlled from outside. It is not uncommon for people with schizophrenia to describe plots against them. They may think they have extraordinary powers and gifts. Some patients with schizophrenia may hide in order to protect themselves from an imagined persecution. According to Medilexicon's medical dictionary: a delusion is A false belief or wrong judgment, sometimes associated with hallucinations, held with conviction despite evidence to the contrary.

In other words people suffering hebophrenic can experience Paranoia during their illness. Heboprenic's are typified by their age.

There is an old saying that a little knowledge can be highly dangerous.

I'll leave you with that thought

Yours Jeff

PS It would also be nice, as a matter of courtesy if you actually responded to my comments instead of diving off in irelivant directions, many thanks for your cooperation

Nemo

11-07-2011, 10:03 PM

I would respond to your comments if they made sense or I could identify them as a pertinent and direct question - It was you who skirted the issue as to whether your comments on Kosminski originated with yourself, Dr Davidson or Dr X for that matter

Let me try one at least,

You say for some reason...

"This is far to simplistic. I again refer you to Aaron's comital notes which you have continually failed to comment on: "He declares that he is guided and his movements altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind, He says he knows the where about's of all mankind."

What that has to do with my suggestion is anybody's guess, but my comment on that aspect of his notes would be that he is coherent enough to relate his delusions and this delusional/hallucinatory aspect is a major part of his illness

In the definition of hebephrenic schizophrenia, it states that aural and visual hallucinations are not a major symptom (yes, we all know they may be present also)

Rather, a hebrephenic schizophrenic would have other identifiable symptoms (yes, not all may be present) such as difficulty following thought patterns, an unemotional expression, difficulty in speaking and irrational behaviour and speech, innappropriate actions, unkempt appearance due to impairment, inability or lack of motive to wash or feed oneself, grimacing etc none of which were noted in Kosminski's case

He was apathetic though, and showed a general incoherence after his incarceration

Was that OK?

If you would like my personal opinion on any other aspect of Kosminski then I'd be happy to oblige. Feel free to phrase a coherent and direct question

I'm not simplifying anything and do not have a "tick-box" mentality

You just use that excuse so that you can move the goalposts when it suits you - If diagnosis was as fluid as you make out then we wouldn't be able to identify any affliction would we?

I fully understand progression in an illness Jeff, and also the psychotic episodes which are delineated by periods in which the symptoms are lessened

It does not mean the subject would be totally normal when not undergoing a full psychotic episode, able to attend court and give a good account of himself for example

Your comments on my suggestions about his possible actions if he was BS man imply that you think his illness had some direct connection with his murderous actions, and that he was undergoing a psychotic episode at the time - is that correct?

Would you say that if Kosminski's episode(s) in 1888 resulted in extreme violence, that they would get worse or diminish without treatment and over time?

I'm not sitting on any private information Jeff and I've hidden nothing

The purpose of this thread was not to investigate my understanding of psychology, it was to investigate your claims based on Dr Davidson's suggestion that Kosminski was a hebephrenic schizophrenic and whether being diagnosed as a hebephrenic schizophrenic increased Kosminski's candidacy for being the Ripper - which it doesn't

Anyone with sense can read this thread and be clear about what you've said previously, what I was asking you to explain, and what you say now, and I've now received enough information from you to come to a conclusion myself thanks

I've nothing further to explain unless you wish me to enlighten you on anything in regard to Kosminski that you are confused about which I'd be more than pleased to do on another thread

I've certainly no wish to discuss psychology per se directly with you as if I was so inclined then I would look elsewhere for accurate information. You trying to pin me down on comments about psychological conditions that even the experts can't agree on is obvious, simplistic and quite frankly pathetic. Trying to belittle me won't make your case any stronger or cover your inconsistencies

By the way, I like your irony in stating that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing - hilarious and totally relevant

Regards

Nemo

Jeff Leahy

11-08-2011, 05:55 AM

I would respond to your comments if they made sense or I could identify them as a pertinent and direct question - It was you who skirted the issue as to whether your comments on Kosminski originated with yourself, Dr Davidson or Dr X for that matter

OK lets ask you a direct question: Where exactly have I said anything that doesn't make sense? Please point this out using my words not what you think I said or some garbled version as per your quote of Dr Lars.

I have not skirted anything. In fact I gave you Dr Lars quote in full so you could appreciate that he gave a professional diagnosis'.

What I said 'was that I see no reason to contradict that diagnosis.

I'd say that is as straight forward and clear as the light of day.

Let me try one at least, You say for some reason...

"This is far to simplistic. I again refer you to Aaron's comital notes which you have continually failed to comment on: "He declares that he is guided and his movements altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind, He says he knows the where about's of all mankind."

What that has to do with my suggestion is anybody's guess, but my comment on that aspect of his notes would be that he is coherent enough to relate his delusions and this delusional/hallucinatory aspect is a major part of his illness

Yep spot on. When Aaron was comited he was clearly showing signs of paranioa.

You started a thread called Hebophrenic V Paraniod, suggesting someone suffering schizophrenia was either one or the other.

What I have been aruing is that I agree with Dr Lars diagnosis, (which he clearly states was based on what happen further down the line)

but that Hebophrenic's can experience paraniod symptoms: "He declares that he is guided and his movements altogether controlled by an instinct"

I'd be most surprised if Dr Lars hadn't also taken this into account given that he was given all the notes on Aaron Kosminski.

In the definition of hebephrenic schizophrenia, it states that aural and visual hallucinations are not a major symptom (yes, we all know they may be present also)

Precisely, Aaron Kosminski doesnt fit into a neat box. What I've consistantly argued is that Schizophrenics rarely do. Which is why both Dr Lars and Dr X caveated their diagnosis by saying it would be impossible to give a precises dyagnosis without a one to one consultation and months possibly years of examination.

What they gave was a n informed professional opinion given the information they were provided with.

Rather, a hebrephenic schizophrenic would have other identifiable symptoms (yes, not all may be present) such as difficulty following thought patterns, an unemotional expression, difficulty in speaking and irrational behaviour and speech, innappropriate actions, unkempt appearance due to impairment, inability or lack of motive to wash or feed oneself, grimacing etc none of which were noted in Kosminski's case

Rubbish. We know Kosminski hadn't worked in years. We know that by the time he was comited he had an unkept appearance. We know he indulged in irrational behaviour, we know he was unwashed and ate from the gutter.

He was apathetic though, and showed a general incoherence after his incarceration

Was that OK?

Yes, but you must remember that the illness would be progressive. Its typical for schizophrenics to reach a stage called burnout in their early thirties (Dr X)

The catigory you mention 'Paranoid' tend not to because their condition usually starts later, hence Dr Lars comment: Taking into account what happened further down the line.

If you would like my personal opinion on any other aspect of Kosminski then I'd be happy to oblige. Feel free to phrase a coherent and direct question

I'm not simplifying anything and do not have a "tick-box" mentality

Then perhaps you'd like to demonstrate where exactly I have been inconsistant?

You just use that excuse so that you can move the goalposts when it suits you - If diagnosis was as fluid as you make out then we wouldn't be able to identify any affliction would we?

Well actually you may have hit on something there? Dr X cartainly was less inclined to give a diagnosis other than Schizophrenia, as it is indeed very difficult to be precise. Presumably because of other external complications and the possiblilty that more than one condition is at work.

And thats probably why they caveated their prognosis.

I fully understand progression in an illness Jeff, and also the psychotic episodes which are delineated by periods in which the symptoms are lessened

Great. This is something that I went into with Dr X in some detail. His explanation is that schizophrenia progresses in waves or cycles often last periods between 18-22 weeks (But may vary considerably from individual to individual).

Clearly there is some evidence that this mnay have been the case in Aaron Kosminski. As you correctly point out he was coherant enough to stand in court in 1889. And we know his illness preceeds this date...

So the 'psychotic episode' fits what is known nicely. Might explain why the murders stopped and started (if he were JtR) might even create a senario where he went in and out of asylums. Also why he was released.

But these are suggested POSSIBILITIES on my part.

It does not mean the subject would be totally normal when not undergoing a full psychotic episode, able to attend court and give a good account of himself for example

Well my understanding is, from conversation with Dr X that that is precisely what might be possible, although I argee the underlining illness would still be present.

Your comments on my suggestions about his possible actions if he was BS man imply that you think his illness had some direct connection with his murderous actions, and that he was undergoing a psychotic episode at the time - is that correct?

Yes. I've clearly implied that an early phaze of the illness 'a phaze called psychotic episode' is the most likely explanation. Following this Aaron could have recovered and than in future episodes been less able to function.

Until the neccesity of having him committed. A degenerative illness.

Would you say that if Kosminski's episode(s) in 1888 resulted in extreme violence, that they would get worse or diminish without treatment and over time?

Yes. My understanding from Dr X is that if untreated the illness will continue to deteriate. However he also caveated himself that he would expect external catalists in a schizophrenic becoming violent (drugs/alcohol etc) Once removed from that invironment the patient might well show a marked improvement. Also it is possible for more than one factor to be in place. I beleive Rob House has done some research on LUST killers and discussed this posibility.

I'm not sitting on any private information Jeff and I've hidden nothing

Well you clearly implied you had reason to believe Aaron was a Paraniod Schizophrenic and even in your last post illuded to this, why else start a post called Hebophrenic V Paranoid?

The purpose of this thread was not to investigate my understanding of psychology, it was to investigate your claims based on Dr Davidson's suggestion that Kosminski was a hebephrenic schizophrenic and whether being diagnosed as a hebephrenic schizophrenic increased Kosminski's candidacy for being the Ripper - which it doesn't

Actually it does. Because this is one of the old catigories in which there is a potencial for violence given cirtain contitions.

What you seem to by trying to argue is that Paraniod schizophrenics are more likely than Hebophrenic's to be violent and Aaron showed signs of paranioa?

What I have pointed out is that Hebophrenics can also experience paranioa though it is less common.

So the enter premise for this thread is incorrect. Both catigories are potentially dangerous as opposed to the other 83% of schizophrenics (which probably also can become dangerous in certain conditions seeing as they also reflect the general population)

Anyone with sense can read this thread and be clear about what you've said previously,

Then enlighten us instead of back handed inuendo? Where exactly have I ever contradicted myself? you keep saying this, but provide NO examples of me having done so. Its Ripperology at its worst.

what I was asking you to explain, and what you say now, and I've now received enough information from you to come to a conclusion myself thanks

Again I ask you to provide examples where i have been inconsistant or apologuize.

I've nothing further to explain unless you wish me to enlighten you on anything in regard to Kosminski that you are confused about which I'd be more than pleased to do on another thread

OK Nemo why dont you explain what you think I have missunderstood about Aaron Kosminski?

Your clearly dying to do so, and we could all do with a good laugh.

I've certainly no wish to discuss psychology per se directly with you as if I was so inclined then I would look elsewhere for accurate information. You trying to pin me down on comments about psychological conditions that even the experts can't agree on is obvious,

Well yes, and again in your anger you have a moment of inspiration. Schizophrenia is a highly controversial subject, as I have been saying all along. Many modern experts would like the term Schizophrenia abolished all together....as per radio 4 program two years ago..

Its a complex area with no simple black and white answers which is what I have consistantly argued.

simplistic and quite frankly pathetic.

Dont take it so hard :rant:

Trying to belittle me won't make your case any stronger or cover your inconsistencies

Again I ask you to supply and demonstrat where I have been inconsistent please provide and demonstrate this information.

By the way, I like your irony in stating that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing - hilarious and totally relevant
Regards Nemo

Relevant to someone who dives head long into an argument he knows nothing about exclaiming that others dont know what they are talking about and accussing them of things they have never said simply because you cant be bothered to read their posts correctly

I shall await your detailed analysis of where I have contradicted myself with some antisipation :faint:

Yours Jeff

Jeff Leahy

11-08-2011, 05:40 PM

I've been trying to find information to confirm Dr X exposition on pschotic cycles in Schizophrenia. Of course he based his observation on practical and case experience but there is some information on the internet which might help:

Symptoms of schizophrenia

Schizophrenia often starts slowly. When the symptoms first appear, usually in adolescence or early adulthood, they may seem more bewildering than serious.

In the early stages, people with schizophrenia may find themselves losing the ability to relax, concentrate or sleep. They may start to shut long-time friends out of their lives. Work or school begins to suffer; so does their personal appearance. During this time, there may be one or more episodes where they talk in ways that may be difficult to understand and/or start having unusual perceptions.

Once it has taken hold, schizophrenia tends to appear in cycles of remission and relapse.

When in remission, a person with schizophrenia may seem relatively unaffected and can more or less function in society. During relapse, however, it is a different story. People with schizophrenia may experience one or all of these main conditions:

delusions and/or hallucinations,
lack of motivation,
social withdrawal,
thought disorders.

Delusions are false beliefs that have no basis in reality. People with schizophrenia may think, for example, that someone is spying on them, listening to their thoughts, or placing thoughts in their minds.

Hallucinations most often consist of hearing voices that comment on behaviour, are insulting or give commands. Less often, people with schizophrenia may see or feel things that aren't there.

Disorganized thinking makes some people with schizophrenia feel mixed up. In conversation, they may jump randomly from one unrelated topic to another. Depression and anxiety frequently accompany these feelings.

The symptoms of schizophrenia vary greatly from person to person, from mild to severe. A specialist is needed to make the diagnosis, especially because there are no diagnostic tests.

Nemo

11-08-2011, 09:28 PM

Thanks for the further info Jeff

I'm not angry, maybe a little frustrated at your attitude, refusal to answer directly, your personal insults to cover your own inadequacy, and your tendency to be consistent

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry

It is ironic again that you accuse me of not reading your posts

If there's one thing I dislike it is having to repeat myself and before this thread was even started I already quoted some of your inconsistencies which you have not responded to (post 170 Points To Ponder ----Stride's Response, According To Schwartz) including your inane claim to have studied and specialised in mental illness for years to become a "sort of" expert - only to alter it later to a general interest in the subject

For the last time, it is clear from the beginning of this thread what I was asking you to clarify due to your own statements in regard to Dr Lars Davidsons suggestion that Kosminski was a HS - I'm not going to say it again

You gave the impression you were quoting Dr Davidson but it is clear that he has a brain and has given a careful and scholarly assessment and the contentious bits of your statements are due to your own speculation only, dishing out statements such as hebephrenic schizophrenia is the most dangerous type of schizophrenia and the most likely to produce crimes such as the Ripper's - subsequently altered to "potentially dangerous" but no more likely to be violent than any other member of society. Now that's Ripperology at it's worst (well, quite bad but maybe not the worst) and I can only put it down to your Kosminski bias and a basic misunderstanding of psychological terms and conditions

I am fully aware of the blurred lines between certain mental illnesses

Hebephrenic schizophrenia is as you said earlier (well, quoted from the internet) is a sub-category of schizophrenia that is demarked by the early onset, probably in the pre-teen years/at puberty

It seems that the subsequent physical conditions of the patient are partly due to the lack of development of social skills due to having the illness at a young age

Despite your superior expert knowledge, I'm going to go with my notion that current guidelines distinguish hebephrenic schizophrenia as a separate category of schizophrenia to paranoid schizophrenia (yes, we all know hebephrenics can be paranoid as well)

A paranoic who suffered the onset of the affliction later in life couldn't be a hebephrenic could he Jeff?

Despite you stating categorically that hebephrenic schizophrenia is apparent from the late teens to early 20's, that is not correct is it Jeff (see above)

A hebephrenic is more likely than a paranoid schizophrenic to be impaired in many social functions isn't he Jeff?

Most every psychological assessment of known and unknown mentally ill killers that I've ever read accentuate the paranoid part of any schizophrenia present with none that I'm aware of ever suggesting that a killer would likely be a hebephrenic

So do you think a hebephrenic schizophrenic is more likely to be a successful serial killer than a paranoid schizophrenic Jeff?

It's not good for discussion that you try and cover every base by saying that it is my misunderstanding that is in the way and that hebephrenics can be paranoics - that is obvious Jeff

Are you saying that because you have come to the conclusion that hebephrenic schizophrenia alone is unlikely to be the cause of the sufferer being a brutal and successful serial killer (with a consistent MO IMO) or is it just you being pedantic in an attempt to try and make a mockery of me to enable you to skirt the issue and cover the fact that you don't know what you are talking about

I'll let the "prognosis" reference go for the moment

Anyway - please regard all the above questions as hypothetical - I'll leave other readers to make what they will of of mine and your statements

I really can't be bothered to assail your ignorance any longer, I've got much better things to spend my time on thanks

Keep providing internet references though as they are reasonably interesting and at least it keeps you busy

Yours

Nemo

Jeff Leahy

11-09-2011, 06:55 AM

Thanks for the further info Jeff

My pleasure.

I'm not angry, maybe a little frustrated at your attitude, refusal to answer directly, your personal insults to cover your own inadequacy, and your tendency to be consistent

There you go again making up wild accusations that you can't substanciate. Please show where I have been inconsistent? I've requested this 'consistently' and you have 'consistantently' failed to do so.
(actually having double checked this you actually say 'consistent' but I have the feeling you actually meant 'inconsistent' which I am clearly NOT)

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry

The mighty NEMO raws and we all quake in our boots :sick:

It is ironic again that you accuse me of not reading your posts

No its not IRONIC, because you either don't read what I say or your stupid, its one or the other.

If there's one thing I dislike it is having to repeat myself and before this thread was even started I already quoted some of your inconsistencies which you have not responded to (post 170 Points To Ponder ----Stride's Response, According To Schwartz) including your inane claim to have studied and specialised in mental illness for years to become a "sort of" expert - only to alter it later to a general interest in the subject

"sort of" expert? where the hell do I say that? Your a liar NEMO and I demand an apology, my pricise wording was as follows and I see nothing inconsistent within it:

Firstly Dr Lars formed his opinion independently of my own research I'm simply quoting him.

A point I have consistently made. Dr Lars is a well respected specialist in the field, with years of practical experience who was asked to look at Aaron's case and draw a conclusion. I see no reason to beleive that conclussion was wrong.

I formed my opinion based on the opinion of a person who works with Dr Lars and spent many years working directly with and specializing in, Schizophrenia..

Again I have consistantly said I have spent considerable time discussing Aaron Case with Dr X. (I am not using his real name because he is a public employie now inchange of a major social service debt and he has request I do not do so)

I think his years of experience are a good basis to form an opininon about Aaron Kosminski, who's actions and behaviour, ie non violent are consistant with schizophrenics removed from a catalist environment.

Again this is brilliant I couldn't have writen it better myself :becky: My opinions have largely been informed through discussion with Dr X.

But then I've spent several years studying examoning and specializing in this area of research.

Again I dont think this is inconsistent with what I've been saying. In a later post I went on to qualify my learning curve as a Ripperologist, and my particualar interest in the brain and its function. But I am an amiteur ripperologist and a professional TV producer not a medical expert. Part of my job requires the seeking of expert advice.

But I have never claimed to be an expert or 'sort of' expert. Please apologise.

For the last time, it is clear from the beginning of this thread what I was asking you to clarify due to your own statements in regard to Dr Lars Davidsons suggestion that Kosminski was a HS - I'm not going to say it again

Are you just completely stupid? READ THIS: "The diagnosis I've reached, also taking into account what happened further down the line, is that he suffered a form of schizophrenia, which I would call hebophrenic schizophrenia. People suffering schizophrenia are not more likely than other people in society to commit violent crime."

You gave the impression you were quoting Dr Davidson

NO. I have consistantly said my research was based on case studies discussed with Dr X and his views. Dr Lars said the above. I SEE NO REASON TO DISAGREE WITH HIS CONCLUSION.

but it is clear that he has a brain and has given a careful and scholarly assessment and the contentious bits of your statements are due to your own speculation only, dishing out statements such as hebephrenic schizophrenia is the most dangerous type of schizophrenia and the most likely to produce crimes such as the Ripper's

Hebophrenic is one of the catigories that can potentially become dangerous in certain conditions and environments. As can Paranoid schizophrenics.

The potentially dangerous phaze is a period called 'Psychotic Episode'

However a number of conditions including Bi Polar, manic depression the list goes on, also experience 'Psychosis' so establishing Aaron as a Schizophrenic was my prime aim.

But hebophrenic's experience this psychotic phaze, and it is this that is dangerous. I've never seen any statistics specifically on Hebophrenic as apposed to paraniod. i doubt they exist. I've only seen serial killer stuff on Schizophrenics in general.

- subsequently altered to "potentially dangerous" but no more likely to be violent than any other member of society.

Again this is completely consistant. You pushed the subject and I provided aditional information its not at odds with what I said previously. Its you that have made the Hebophrenic V paranoid distinction which i believe to be of fause premise.

I've consistantly argued that Schizophrenics are not dangerous. Check posts dating back years. The problem is that people like you just dont get how that statement can square with someone being Jack the Ripper.

And that is something quite complex to understand. Not suited to someone with a black and white, box ticking mentality.

Now that's Ripperology at it's worst (well, quite bad but maybe not the worst)

We'll leave the gags and the general wit to me shall we NEMO :becky:

and I can only put it down to your Kosminski bias and a basic misunderstanding of psychological terms and conditions

Thats two things? But yes I'm interested in Kosminski as a suspect. Kosminski was named by Anderson and Swanson and thus places his miles out infront of any other possible suspect....obviously that statement will upset alot of people especially as I'm stating it as FACT. But then ripperology is a contencious subject.

However its only you with your cub scout guide to schizophrenia that has miss understood how it works.

I am fully aware of the blurred lines between certain mental illnesses

Then why stick to your pragmatic, black and white approach?

Hebephrenic schizophrenia is as you said earlier (well, quoted from the internet) is a sub-category of schizophrenia that is demarked by the early onset, probably in the pre-teen years/at puberty

Yes correct. The word Hebophrenic coming from teh greek goddess of youth. but typically late teens early twenties.

I would think this would have been an important consideration in Dr Lars accessment.

It seems that the subsequent physical conditions of the patient are partly due to the lack of development of social skills due to having the illness at a young age

Are you refering to burnout?

Despite your superior [B]expert knowledge,

This is something I have never claimed....you are a CAD sir...and i bite my thumb in your direction...

However it is apparent that my ripperology is better than yours...:becky:

I'm going to go with my notion that current guidelines distinguish hebephrenic schizophrenia as a separate category of schizophrenia to paranoid schizophrenia (yes, we all know hebephrenics can be paranoid as well)

Yes they can also experince Paranioa, especially during a phaze called 'Psychotic episode' and that is the only period in which POTENCIALLY Aaron might have become dangerous, and thus the only period that is of any significance, apart to confirm the fact that his actions, once placed in the asylum would be consistant with Hebophrenic schizophrenia

Penny dropping yet?

A paranoic who suffered the onset of the affliction later in life couldn't be a hebephrenic could he Jeff?

I've know idea? Have you any records or statistics or case studies to support this claim?

Despite you stating categorically that hebephrenic schizophrenia is apparent from the late teens to early 20's, that is not correct is it Jeff (see above)

YEs it is correct. Hebophrenic Schizophrenia is typified by appearance in late teens and early twenties. In his many call outs to cases involving young schizophrenic's, Dr X related many stories of people around first year of university, often a highly stress full time. Dr X concluded Aaron's age and what is known of his early development is typical of schizophrenia.

A hebephrenic is more likely than a paranoid schizophrenic to be impaired in many social functions isn't he Jeff?

Again you have simply not listened or read a single word I've said.

Hebophrenic Schizophrenia is a progressive illness as I have describe consistantly. Yet you ask an obviously ridiculous question because it assumes that Hebophric Schizophrenia is fixed and its syptoms appear full formed.

At what point in the condition??? there's a clue.

Most every psychological assessment of known and unknown mentally ill killers that I've ever read accentuate the paranoid part of any schizophrenia present with none that I'm aware of ever suggesting that a killer would likely be a hebephrenic

No they dont they probably accentuate the 'psychosis' which happens during psychotic episodes.

So do you think a hebephrenic schizophrenic is more likely to be a successful serial killer than a paranoid schizophrenic Jeff?

My personal opinion is that 'the psychotic episode' typical in both forms schizophrenia is the most probable time for schizophrenics to become dangerous. However ripper style murders are so rare I doubt if there are any credible statistics. What we know is that under certain conditions both paraniod and hebophrenic's can become dangerous.

Dr X has stated he would expect other factors and conditions to be a factor (drugs/alcohol)

It is the 'psychosis' that is the important factor here.

It's not good for discussion that you try and cover every base by saying that it is my misunderstanding that is in the way and that hebephrenics can be paranoics - that is obvious Jeff

It clearly hasnt been obvious to you Nemo or you never would have started a thread entitled Hebophrenic V Paraniod. Your ignorance on a subject is not my responsibility.

Are you saying that because you have come to the conclusion that hebephrenic schizophrenia alone is unlikely to be the cause of the sufferer being a brutal and successful serial killer (with a consistent MO IMO)

No I've said that I think Hebophrenic Schizophrenia could be the key. Not least to explaining Aarons apparent lack of violence once placed in an asylum.

or is it just you being pedantic in an attempt to try and make a mockery of me to enable you to skirt the issue and cover the fact that you don't know what you are talking about

Your doing a very good job of that on your own you dont require my help.

I'll let the "prognosis" reference go for the moment

Am i bovered'

Anyway - please regard all the above questions as hypothetical - I'll leave other readers to make what they will of of mine and your statements

There not really question though are they NEMO.

I really can't be bothered to assail your ignorance any longer, I've got much better things to spend my time on thanks

Is this the piont wherer you get in a huff stamp your feet and throw your toys out the pram? :der:

Keep providing internet references though as they are reasonably interesting and at least it keeps you busy

Yours Nemo

The internet references were for your benefit to try and help you gasp some of the information put forward to me by Dr X in trying to understand what is a complicated and still largely miss understood subject.

I can see I have been waisting my time:typing:

I shall await your apology if you are a gentleman.

Yours Jeff

PS Just so everyone is absolutely clear (and you can double check on Wiki) the average age for Hebophrenic Disorganised schizophrenia is 15-25 years old. Dr X was explicit that Aarons age was fairly typical of cases he had been called to deal with. So the age range is Spot on for Aaron whatever Nemo may try to tell you.

Jeff Leahy

11-09-2011, 05:10 PM

Given recent comments I have done some basic searching incase there is any actual internet evidence to support Nemo's claims that hebophrenic's are younger than 15? So far I have found none. Jeff

Hebephrenic schizophrenia, also commonly referred to as disorganized schizophrenia or disorganized type schizophrenia, is a distinct type of schizophrenic psychosis. This type differs from other forms of this disorder, as it is characterized by nonsensical speech that follows no distinct pattern, as well by erratic and extremely bizarre behavior. Hebephrenic schizophrenia also typically presents in patients during their teen years and who are younger than 25 years of age.

Typically occurring in young patients between the ages of 15 and 25 years old, hebephrenic schizophrenia is marked by a rapid increase in symptoms after its initial onset. One of the primary symptoms of this disorder is severely disorganized speech patterns that also appear to have no grammatical structure. Other symptoms include a seeming inability to feel pleasure, improper emotional responses, a complete loss of motivation, delusions, hallucinations and highly unusual behavior.

Nemo

11-20-2011, 12:03 PM

Hi Jeff

Apologies for the delay in replying

Given recent comments I have done some basic searching incase there is any actual internet evidence to support Nemo's claims that hebophrenic's are younger than 15? So far I have found none. Jeff

That's surprising Jeff considering your familiarity with the subject

It must have been really "basic" searching because it took me all of 5 mins to find a reference to a diagnosis of hebephrenic schizophrenia at the age of 12-13 years old...

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/disorganized-schizophrenia

Childhood schizophrenia is hard to diagnose though and so is not easily categorised

Hebephrenia is diagnosed as per the symptoms in which the subject's actions resemble those of a childish teenager and happens to normally coincide with the onset of puberty

The age you state as the age of onset of HS is very variable isn't it Jeff?

There appears to be no real consensus - appearing as "in the adolescent years" or more commonly "at the onset of puberty","in the late teens" and, as you state correctly, between the ages of 15-25 years

This aspect has some import and whichever way you look at it, Kosminski is in the upper percentile of cases

It was reported that Kosminski first showed psychotic symptoms at the age of 25 - the extreme upper limit for hebephrenic schizophrenics and quite late for the onset of puberty isn't it Jeff?

However, it is also happens to be the common age of onset of paranoid schizophrenia - being typically between the ages of 25-30

Although you list delusions and hallucinations as symptoms of HS, which they are, there is the caveat that they are not a major symptom of HS which is more characterised by the negative symptoms

Here is a reference to the prognosis for a person suffering from HS in which it states that early hallucinations and delusions resolve themselves more so than the negative symptoms

http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&uid=1983-25800-001

This is very different to Kosminski, who had structured and strong delusions until late in life which were noted as the main aspects of his illness, with few negative symptoms reported that would be expected in a HS sufferer

I'll state again that hebephrenic schizophrenia is diagnosed in reference to very specific symptoms, and IMO Kosminski has strong positive symptoms more akin to paranoid schizophrenia that don't match, and a lack of significant negative symptoms

However, some aspects of his illness could be construed as similar to those of HS with the additional major delusions

An impairment in being able to look after bodily health and cleanliness such as in the case of a HS sufferer, is different from that of Kosminski who didn't wash because his "instinct" told him not to. That's more of a delusion than an impairment isn't it Jeff?

IMO such a case cannot be diagnosed satisfactorily as hebephrenia and would be better diagnosed as "undifferentiated schizophrenia"

It never was my intention to attempt a medical diagnosis though Jeff - I'm certainly no expert. What I was interested in was how being diagnosed as a hebephrenic schizophrenic increases a suspect's candidacy for being the Ripper

---------------------------------------

Nemo : "If there's one thing I dislike it is having to repeat myself and before this thread was even started I already quoted some of your inconsistencies which you have not responded to (post 170 Points To Ponder ----Stride's Response, According To Schwartz) including your inane claim to have studied and specialised in mental illness for years to become a "sort of" expert - only to alter it later to a general interest in the subject"

Jeff : "sort of" expert? where the hell do I say that? Your a liar NEMO and I demand an apology, my pricise wording was as follows and I see nothing inconsistent within it:

"Firstly Dr Lars formed his opinion independently of my own research I'm simply quoting him"
--------------------------

Posted (earlier than the above) by Nemo
"You haven't spent years "specialising" in the subject have you?"

Jeff: "Read above. Its an area that interests me and I have sort expert opinion on" (sic)

An apology is called for Jeff - for you calling me a liar (never mind "half-wit" etc)

It amuses me how every insult you have directed at me exactly applies to you

And by the way, I'm not violent Jeff, no more than the next guy anyway

Do you always equate anger with violence? A bit of a bad trait if that is so Jeff

In fact, IMO, a psychiatrist looking at these boards would see more evidence to enable you to be diagnosed as a hebephrenic than Kosminski, though you express a little too much paranoia and insecurity to enable that to be considered a definitive diagnosis

Jeff Leahy

11-20-2011, 01:08 PM

Hi Jeff

Apologies for the delay in replying

Thats cool take your time.

That's surprising Jeff considering your familiarity with the subject

It must have been really "basic" searching because it took me all of 5 mins to find a reference to a diagnosis of hebephrenic schizophrenia at the age of 12-13 years old...

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/disorganized-schizophrenia

Childhood schizophrenia is hard to diagnose though and so is not easily categorised

Almost everything I've researched, including Wiki, states typical on set at 15-25. Dr X has been explicet that he see's Aaron's age and the development of his illness (which clearly started before he was 25) as typical of cases he has dealt with.

Hebephrenia is diagnosed as per the symptoms in which the subject's actions resemble those of a childish teenager and happens to normally coincide with the onset of puberty

Wrong. Late teens early twenties.

The age you state as the age of onset of HS is very variable isn't it Jeff?

Late teens early twenties. Of course it can vary. The word typically usually means what it says on the tin.

There appears to be no real consensus - appearing as "in the adolescent years" or more commonly "at the onset of puberty","in the late teens" and, as you state correctly, between the ages of 15-25 years

Yes , Late teens early twenties. Typically first year of University would be good. Typical.

This aspect has some import and whichever way you look at it, Kosminski is in the upper percentile of cases

NO he is NOT. GO do your Ripperology properly. I see NO reason to do the basics for you.

It was reported that Kosminski first showed psychotic symptoms at the age of 25 - the extreme upper limit for hebephrenic schizophrenics and quite late for the onset of puberty isn't it Jeff?

Again where the 'Hell' have you got this from...Have you been taking Deloxley Tours?

However, it is also happens to be the common age of onset of paranoid schizophrenia - being typically between the ages of 25-30

I'd be interested in any hard statistics on this. However Hebophrenics can and do also experience paranoid Schizophrenia. They may not be different types of Schizophrenia at all.

Although you list delusions and hallucinations as symptoms of HS, which they are, there is the caveat that they are not a major symptom of HS which is more characterised by the negative symptoms

We are dealing with what is 'Possible'. Hebophrenics can and do have paraniod episodes. Aaron did. He also fits the age range for Hebophrrenic Schizophrenia.

The only thing that really matters is Aaron's mental condition in 1888 aged 22.
At twenty two Aaron would be plum centre of a possibly dangerous period. If he were at all to become dangerous.

Here is a reference to the prognosis for a person suffering from HS in which it states that early hallucinations and delusions resolve themselves more so than the negative symptoms

http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&uid=1983-25800-001

Each case study is unique. I will have a look later as I'm working late tonight.

This is very different to Kosminski, who had structured and strong delusions until late in life which were noted as the main aspects of his illness, with few negative symptoms reported that would be expected in a HS sufferer

No . Aaron appears to have burned out and was transfered early thirties. Which is much more common to Hebophrenic Schizophrenia. Hence Dr Lars diagnosis I would suggest.

I'll state again that hebephrenic schizophrenia is diagnosed in reference to very specific symptoms, and IMO Kosminski has strong positive symptoms more akin to paranoid schizophrenia that don't match, and a lack of significant negative symptomsr

Yes we know you keep stating this, but it doesnt change the fact that HP sufferers also experience Paraniod delussions.

And I've specifically piontout several times that its rare that either catigory (which could be wrong anyway) is ever violent.

It is Paraniod 'Psychosis' that might form a basis for potencial Ripper like behaviour. And its those Psychotic episodes that are interesting and potencially dangerous in Aaron's Case

However, some aspects of his illness could be construed as similar to those of HS with the additional major delusions

Again it would be potencial Psychotic Episodes that would be of interest.

An impairment in being able to look after bodily health and cleanliness such as in the case of a HS sufferer, is different from that of Kosminski who didn't wash because his "instinct" told him not to. That's more of a delusion than an impairment isn't it Jeff?

Aaron waisted away. His later records suggesting HP schizophrenia.

IMO such a case cannot be diagnosed satisfactorily as hebephrenia and would be better diagnosed as "undifferentiated schizophrenia"

Possibly. Its very difficult for anyone to be precise without studying the patient. JtR style attacks are very rare. Certainly Dr X has only ever used the term Schizophrenia for the very problem you raise.

It never was my intention to attempt a medical diagnosis though Jeff - I'm certainly no expert. What I was interested in was how being diagnosed as a hebephrenic schizophrenic increases a suspect's candidacy for being the Ripper

I'm not certain it increase his potential to be the Ripper. What I find interesting is that it would give the potential for Aaron to have Psychotic Episodes at the time of the murders 1888. But appear for all intensive purpose, 'harmless' after that time.

Yours Jeff

---------------------------------------

Nemo : "If there's one thing I dislike it is having to repeat myself and before this thread was even started I already quoted some of your inconsistencies which you have not responded to (post 170 Points To Ponder ----Stride's Response, According To Schwartz) including your inane claim to have studied and specialised in mental illness for years to become a "sort of" expert - only to alter it later to a general interest in the subject"

Jeff : "sort of" expert? where the hell do I say that? Your a liar NEMO and I demand an apology, my pricise wording was as follows and I see nothing inconsistent within it:

"Firstly Dr Lars formed his opinion independently of my own research I'm simply quoting him"
--------------------------

Posted (earlier than the above) by Nemo
"You haven't spent years "specialising" in the subject have you?"

Jeff: "Read above. Its an area that interests me and I have sort expert opinion on" (sic)

An apology is called for Jeff - for you calling me a liar (never mind "half-wit" etc)

It amuses me how every insult you have directed at me exactly applies to you

And by the way, I'm not violent Jeff, no more than the next guy anyway

Do you always equate anger with violence? A bit of a bad trait if that is so Jeff

In fact, IMO, a psychiatrist looking at these boards would see more evidence to enable you to be diagnosed as a hebephrenic than Kosminski, though you express a little too much paranoia and insecurity to enable that to be considered a definitive diagnosis

Nemo are you a Gentleman able to apologies for and take responsibility for your errors?

I simply never claimed to be an 'expert' in mental health.

I claimed to have sort advice from experts which is an entirely different thing as you well Know.

Lets wait and see if you have any honour?

YOurs Jeff

Nemo

11-20-2011, 04:30 PM

I've specifically piontout several times that its rare that either catigory (which could be wrong anyway) is ever violent.

It is Paraniod 'Psychosis' that might form a basis for potencial Ripper like behaviour. And its those Psychotic episodes that are interesting and potencially dangerous in Aaron's Case

Again it would be potencial Psychotic Episodes that would be of interest.

I'm not certain it increase his potential to be the Ripper. What I find interesting is that it would give the potential for Aaron to have Psychotic Episodes at the time of the murders 1888. But appear for all intensive purpose, 'harmless' after that time.

I can agree with those statements Jeff because I have an open mind and am able to see both sides of the argument

It's a far cry from HS being the most dangerous form of schizophrenia though - I can't find any indication that is so

I am a gentleman Jeff and more than willing to apologise for any errors I might make but I don't see any errors to apologise for

You, however, appear to take a challenge to your views as a personal attack, and respond accordingly with some very personal insults

I think it's you who should be apologetic

You are more familiar than me with Kosminski - so may I ask, when does the evidence say that his first symptoms became apparent?

The reference to the current attack being of a period of 6 years is a bit contentious isn't it - we don't know when that entry was made do we?

Jeff Leahy

11-20-2011, 05:15 PM

I can agree with those statements Jeff because I have an open mind and am able to see both sides of the argument

It's a far cry from HS being the most dangerous form of schizophrenia though - I can't find any indication that is so

Hebophrenic Schizophrenics can be dangerous under cirtain circumstance as can Paraniod Schizophrenics.

The key phaze is 'Psychotic Episode'. The Hebophrenic V Paraniod is a red herring unless you can prove your theory with reliable statistics

They are both potencial dangerous . Full Stop.

I am a gentleman Jeff and more than willing to apologise for any errors I might make but I don't see any errors to apologise for

You have clearly said that I stated I was an "expert"

I have never in my life claimed this.

You, however, appear to take a challenge to your views as a personal attack, and respond accordingly with some very personal insults

I think it's you who should be apologetic

I think anyone following this thread can see who started and continues to antaginize

You are more familiar than me with Kosminski - so may I ask, when does the evidence say that his first symptoms became apparent?

Admissions book Mile End July 1990....Duration: 6 years

Making Aaron 19 when the first attack started. Fairly typical.

The illness would develop in waves. Psychotic episodes last 18-22 weeks periods. Then improvements followed by further attacks

Quote:He has not attempted any kind of work in years.

The reference to the current attack being of a period of 6 years is a bit contentious isn't it - we don't know when that entry was made do we?

No. Its unlikely the entry was made at a much later date. Anymore than the entry of Self Abuse.

So its probable that Aarons illness started or showed first signs in late teens

22 would be a great time for the start of Psychotic episodes. Typical.

Yours Jeff

Nemo

11-20-2011, 10:14 PM

Jeff Leahy

11-21-2011, 05:48 AM

Jeff, you have epically failed to see from the onset that the hebrephenic vs paranoic title was inspired by your incorrect comment that the revelation that Kosminski might have been a hebephrenic suddenly made him a much more likely candidate for being the Ripper because hebephrenia is the most dangerous form of schizophrenia

You have consistantly failed to see that the entire premise for this thread is missleading. As there is no statistical evidence to back up that premis. Indeed as I've consistently pointed out the terms are out dated and likely to be defuct for many reasons in the future anyway.

Dr Lars used this term because he was trying to explain a basic illness to a TV audience. I see know reason to contradict that diagnosis.

Both Hebophrenics and Paraniods experience Psychosis at various stages of the illness. It is this phase that is dangerous.

As both experience it, both are dangerous.

That is nowhere near my opinion or understanding of mental disorders

We've already estabished that your understanding comes from reading stuff of internet sites aim'd at a broad and basic general public.

You are a box ticker. For a illness that is almost unique to every sufferer.

ie Schizophrenia has many syndromes that can combine in an almost infinate number of ways.

You have now toned this opinion down to an acceptable chain of possibilities making this thread defunct and choose to throw insults rather than admit any error on your part

No what I've done is expanded on what is actually very complex because of your persistent stupidity.

I've pointed out where you stated you were a "sort of expert" Jeff, so where's your apology for calling me a liar? Are you saying something different now?

Again i demand an apology. At no time have I ever staed I'm an expert or 'Sort of expert' which is a meilly insult put together by you. Both are false.

I have never claimed to be a 'sort of expert'. FACT.

It's difficult to keep up and make sense of all your contradictions and makes conversation with you on a topic impossible

There is nothing contradictory in what I have written. Schizophrenia is a complex illness still not fully understood, which is why I sort the advice of people who have spent their lives working in this specific area.

As far as I know, there is no indication when the entry of "6 years" was made

Oh God...conspiracy theory time. The next enter is 10th Feb 1891. Not six years later. Aaron is described as not having worked in years. The term Duration of 'existing' attack suggests they understood that 'Mania' comes and goes, consistent with what is known, by people who are 'experts' about Schizophrenia.

Why put "6 months" if 6 years was meant? Isn't it more likely to be a later update?

NO. Your clutching at straws given all the knowns.

Do you know categorically when it was made Jeff or are you just speculating?

NO. I'm making a reasoned accessment given all the known facts that Aarons illness started in late teens early twenties. Which is typical of the illness and 'ALL' the syptoms and time periods given for Aaron Kosminski. There is nothing to support the idea that Aaron's illness only started at 25...nothing. So a simple correction supports all the knowns and makes common sense.

Besides, whether Kosminski suffered symptoms at 19 or not is irrelevant to the premise of this thread - see above

Yes i will start a new thread called 'Why Aarons illness suggest the possibility that he may have been Jack the Ripper'. When I have time, I'm very busy at present.

Bt obviously 19 is important to your premise as you have stated Paraniod Schizophrenics start around 25. Not that I've seen much statistical evidence to support it.

Its probably also explains Dr Lars diagnosis, ie the age and development of the syptoms. Dr X simply says SCHIZOPHRENIA.

Anyway - you've retracted or revised the statements I was "concerned" about so I'm satisfied with the result of this thread - I've nothing more to discuss with you on this subject Jeff

You mean 'the Penny's finally dropped' that you were in the wrong, and you no longer wish to continue making a fool of yourself. I can understand that NEMO.

I don't expect an apology and it would mean nothing to me anyway, so don't bother

Yes its obvious you are a man without principle.

As I said previously, I've got much better things to do with my precious time than continue with this childish debate thanks

Its time that you could better spend doing some basic research on Aaron Kosminski, I would agree

Excellent

Yours Jeff