Black Magic Debate

[How Brown]

Black Magic Debate Thread.....

[Tom_Wescott]

Does discussion of Jack the Ripper ever spontaneously break out on this site, or is such discussion carefully controlled and prohibited?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[How Brown]

I believe so there Tom.....;)

There's a whole lotta threads that are out there that could be responded to....replied to...or even initiated.

Tell you what my man....

How about the idea that was and has been avoided at Casebook and of course,anywhere else....;)

Where is there any evidence that Stephenson practiced black magic ?

and these couple off the top of my head...................

Why did the McNaughten Memoranda only say "the suspect was" and not "the killer was" ?

How about we discuss why Mr.Socially Conscious Stead allowed the Dec. 1st article by Stephenson to appear with its inference to a Jewish killer,when Warren busted his hump to avoid such a scenario which, in his words,may have led to riots?

Start one up Tom or join in here....I'll be with you on it.:thumbsupbud:


You know,of course,that you HAVE your own Forum. You can do anything you want there...and control it. You can discuss what you want or start up whatever you want there.;)

[Tom_Wescott]

Howard,

I appreciate the response and the invite. My last post was meant half in jest, and I put a smiley icon on there to signify this, but the icon appeared at the TOP of my message and not after, so not seeing that may have prompted my post to sound snottier than intended. However, it is curious that there's no active Ripper discussions going on. As for your suggestions, D'Onston mentioned himself that he practiced theology, black magic, etc. He published on vampires, also a pretty dead give away, so I'm not sure there's much discussion there. In any event, I try to avoid D'Onston discussions, and suspect discussions, in general. I'm also lousy at starting discussions, but enjoy jumping in if the topic interests me. Nawmean?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[How Brown]

Tom:

"As for your suggestions, D'Onston mentioned himself that he practiced theology, black magic, etc. He published on vampires, also a pretty dead give away, so I'm not sure there's much discussion there..."

. I may not be around today,because of other stuff I have to do....but if the "mentioned himself" refers to the story for Stead in 1889...that isn't evidence of anything other than imagination. Not to be a smart ass,but Stoker published on vampires too and he wasn't a practitioner of the black arts....or vampirism.

So...yeah...I agree. Since there isn't any evidence of RDS practicing black magic...it isn't discussion-worthy.

Feel free to initiate something. You were doing pretty well over at Casebook a few months ago with initiating things...why not kickstart some stuff here ?

I saw the smilies..I took your comment the right way,old man.;)

[Adam Went]

Tom:

We try to avoid discussions on Jack around here as much as possible, because Stephenson always seems to become involved in some way or another, and the rest of us sensible people know that he's just not worthwhile discussing. :p

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jules Rosenthal]

Tom, there's heaps of threads around this site which are up and running and talking about Jack. That's why this site is called JTR Forums. If you can't find anything here to excite you, then start your own thread. As you mentioned you have difficulty in starting discussions and prefer to join in on ones that have already been started, but give it a go - instead of waiting for someone to start a thread up that you're interested in, start one yourself so we can join in.

I'd look forward to it.

Cheers
Jules

[Tom_Wescott]

Jules,

Thanks for that, buddy. But I thought it would be understood I was referring to the lack of active threads, not ALL threads. Hardly any reason to respond to a post left a month or a year ago.

Howard,

If you don't think D'Onston was into the Black Arts, you've got issues. He himself attested to his ownership of such books in his letter to Warren and his PMG article. He also mentions his religious experimentation in the Woodhull pamphlet. Bram Stoker wrote blatant fiction. D'Onston wrote pseudo-academically on the subject of vampires and ghosts. He undertook a new first name (Roslyn), dripping in occult lore. And let us not forget his writings for Borderland where he makes it quite clear that he studied the black arts, names his teacher, and give specifics on his occult adventures. Then, of course, there are his associates - Vittoria Cremers and Mabel Collins, among others. Even W.T. Stead himself was a spiritualist. There's absolutely no reason to doubt D'Onston's involvement in Magik as it's a matter of record.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[How Brown]

Dear Tom:

If you don't think D'Onston was into the Black Arts, you've got issues.

I sure do. I can't find any evidence of Stephenson practicing black magic. Of course,he was versed in the stuff. But no evidence to show he practiced it..unless the fairy tales count.

He himself attested to his ownership of such books in his letter to Warren and his PMG article.

A lot of people could make the same claim and solely as hobbyists,not practitioners. I have books on auto repair and am not a practicing mechanic.

He also mentions his religious experimentation in the Woodhull pamphlet. Bram Stoker wrote blatant fiction. D'Onston wrote pseudo-academically on the subject of vampires and ghosts.

He also mentioned that he "switched bodies" with a man named Karl Hoffman in Borderland....saw a woman jump 500 feet into the air....saw people turn into animals....people create rain....ad naseum. Pseudo-academically is like saying "half-pregnant". Either it is bogus or real. Vampires and ghosts ain't real. Psychics have solved many cases for the police...so there is hope for the occult community yet.;)

. He undertook a new first name (Roslyn), dripping in occult lore. And let us not forget his writings for Borderland where he makes it quite clear that he studied the black arts, names his teacher, and give specifics on his occult adventures.

Roslyn,from the Rosslyn Chapel. is a sign he had interest in the world of magic,but not evidence of BLACK MAGIC. Again, Stephenson's use of the name still does not provide an example of him practicing a black magic ritual.

Then, of course, there are his associates - Vittoria Cremers and Mabel Collins, among others. Even W.T. Stead himself was a spiritualist. There's absolutely no reason to doubt D'Onston's involvement in Magik as it's a matter of record.

These three people did not in all likelihood practice black magic. There is every reason to suspect that based on the absolutely ridiculous assertions by Stephenson ( re-read Borderland ) that these are tales to sell and peddle to a new and burgeoning market. Stephenson would have been a "crystal" salesman if he lived today....those little pyramids and such that old hippie women sell to make a buck.

All the hype over this guy that stems from the Cremers memoirs and the cleverly scripted segment on RDS in the 1988 Centennial program with Ustinov.....where RDS is cooking up chunks of something with the ominous candles and all that.....got me believing he was as Harris and Edwards claimed....a practicing black magician.

However,after carefully scrutinizing both of their books and reading them over and over again....all that can be said is that he had an interest in magic....but no evidence to show he practiced BLACK MAGIC.

Of course in all objectivity,had he practiced black magic,who would know? How could we tell ? He certainly would be discreet as to whom he told,if in fact he did. I'm not making an issue of whether he did or not. There is just no evidence that he did.

The December 1st article does go into detail about the use of harlot parts and all that.....but thats not an indication of whether he ever did that or not.

Bottom line....I still have the old gut feeling that he could have been the Ripper. Just not as a practicing black magician.

And despite you being mean to me...I still love ya.:thumbsupbud:

I'll fill you in on the buzz from the Convention...

I'll eat a cat uterus and magically transform into an eagle and fly over to you and drop off a list of the shenanigans at casa Wescott.

May I also suggest that other people contribute or read the material that Tom has written on Stephenson in both Ripper Notes and Ripperologist? Tom has done some A+ work on possible links to the Ripper-as-Donston that few others have...

I suggest reading Borderland ( its on Casebook ) and see what you think,dear objective reader.

[Tom_Wescott]

Howard,

I'm not at all being mean to you and not sure why you thought that. However, it's difficult discussing D'Onston with you because you occasionally lose sight of the fact that nobody followed him around with a video camera, capturing every movement and action for posterity. That being the case, we often won't have ironclad proof of many things. At that point we must simply work with the best information available to us and fill in the blanks where possible with logical inference. This applies not only to D'Onston but every suspect. The fact that D'Onston was knowledgeable on the occult, published on the occult, stated that he practiced the occult, and that this admission was verified by a known acquaintance (Cremers), I'd say we're on safe ground by infering that he did, in fact, practice the occult. He's clearly an obsessive personality, as his book 'Patristic Gospels' will attest to. He dove headfirst into his religious interests. By your line of reasoning, since we do not have ironclad proof that D'Onston drank alcohol - but merely the statements of those who knew him - there's no reason to think he ever threw back a pint in his life. I'm not suggesting you'd endorse such a claim, but this is along the same line as your suggestion that he wasn't an occult practitioner. The weight of the evidence suggests he was.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Have a blast at the conference, and YES, I expect a full report (with pictures, if possible!) upon your return! :)

[How Brown]

Tom:

I was only kidding about the "mean" comment..c'mon !!;)

Photos and gossip like a 14 year old girl coming up....

Good arguments for him possibly practicing black magic.

Will counter when I return.

I'm sort of glad we have different opinions of RDS. Yet we still have him high on the list.

Great minds don't always have to think alike.:thumbsupbud:

[Jules Rosenthal]

G'day again,

Tom, you leave that many posts on threads it's not easy to keep up with you. So I'll make the suggestion again that you start one of your own.

As for D'Onston, yeah he was an occultist, but what does that prove?

Jules

[Tom_Wescott]

G'day again,

Tom, you leave that many posts on threads it's not easy to keep up with you. So I'll make the suggestion again that you start one of your own.

As for D'Onston, yeah he was an occultist, but what does that prove?

Jules

Jules,

It proves nothing. I didn't wish to engage in that discussion, but Howard was making the dubious claim that there's no proof that D'Onston practiced the occult, thus sparking the discussion. My responses were to establish that there's sufficient proof to suggest D'Onston did, indeed, practice the occult. I don't feel the subject is worthy of a thread, although I do not mind at all if Howard would like to make a thread of it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Maria Birchwood]

Tom:

There are 1,000 threads on this site to chose from. So there has to be ONE out there that suits your needs. Howard has too many already ! Just look around on all the threads the other members already have, and see if anything sparks your taste.

-Maria

[Jules Rosenthal]

Tom. You said that you didn't want to engage in that discussion about D'Onston, yet you did and you also claimed there's sufficient proof to prove he practiced the 'occult'. Could you please post that proof or evidence here so we can put this to rest.

It also appears you don't think many topics are worthy of a thread, but you are still willing to throw your two bobs worth in which is why I suggested you start a thread of your own. So rather than cause grief on other people's threads, start one of your own and you can debate your little heart out on any topic you want with anyone you want.

You do have your own personal 'Thread Page' on this website.

Cheers
Jules

[How Brown]

Jules,

It proves nothing. I didn't wish to engage in that discussion, but Howard was making the dubious claim that there's no proof that D'Onston practiced the occult...

Tom
_______________________________

Tom...I asked whether there was proof that Stephenson practiced black magic....the dark stuff. Not the theosophical "white magic"......not making little triangles with his fingers...not knowing about Eliphaz Levi ( you and I do that and yet don't practice it )...

The significance is that one can be a member of an occult group,like the Golden Dawn, and have never boiled a cat or whatever these weirdos who DO practice black magic did. I personally don't think Stephenson was that weird...maybe a misfit of sorts and interested in that milieu....but thats not the point....and what I think doesn't matter.

Shouldn't it be accepted that if Druitt was considered a cricketer on a team,when it wasn't his full time job, it is necessary to provide proof that he cricketed on a team? Not only a sportsman....but a cricketer on a team? We can.

Shouldn't it be accepted that if Chapman was a feldscher,that evidence of his practicing this skill is necessary? We can.

Shouldn't it be a responsibility ( long overlooked in my opinion and include me in the number as well ) for all Stephenson enthusiasts to openly question what sort of "occult" practices he practiced ? Where they "black magic" at all ?

Not wrote about....not knew about...but actually did?

We can't.





Again...I wish we knew for certain that he did. The sole purpose of me countering my own preferred suspect is only to eliminate the baggage attached to him to make him worse than what he may have been. He may have been the Ripper for OTHER reasons and his utilization of all this black magic crap a fantasy.

Some reject Sickert because of Cornwell and the painting nonsense. Cornwell cannot possibly get inside Sickert's head to know what he was thinking. Yet that alone doesn't eliminate him. Other criteria must be met,not the wishful thinking of a person like Cornwell.

But in our case and in the case of those who likewise are interested in RDS...we shouldn't try to get inside his head. No guy that accidentally stabbed his wife can claim with any degree of credibility that he knows what its like to be a serial killer anymore than since I drive to work everyday,I have some sort of mutual kinship with a Grand Prix race driver.

Is Stephenson the first man in the history of serial killing with NO prior arrests for anything until his explosion at the age of 47 in the East End?

Is Stephenson the first man in the history of serial killing to not once,but four times infuse himself into the Case of Cases unsuccessfully and yet simply stop....with no need to further satiate his prior need for recognition,self evident by the letters to the PMG...the police....the Marsh episode...the Davies episode... after 1888? Maybe he WAS nuts from syphilis and that this,not black magic,was the reason he may have been the Ripper.

And here again...I concede that MY idea that syphilis made him nuts...and subsequently convert to Woodhull.....is just an idea,not a fact. I cannot prove and NEED to prove that he had syphilis. I acknowledge that. Can the claimants for black magic on the part of Stephenson acknowledge their suppositions are merely theoretical and NEED to be proven?

I certainly did not expect that you could provide an answer to this question. What I expected was since you are among the most fervent RDS thinkers that this concept had to have occurred to you. I suppose I was wrong.

Lets let other people deal with the bullshit about testing the diary...whether Hutchinson was under-scrutinzed by Abberline....whether Barnett spit on a grave...whether PAV was gay..... Lets make RDS free of hype until the day we can definitely link him practicing black magic, having syphilis, being psychopathic,or whatever as a motive for the crimes.

[Robert Linford]

The other day, John Savage found a newspaper item on another matter entirely. On the same page, though, there is a little snippet about a professor of the black art. There's a bit of it missing, because John was actually searching for something else. I don't think he'll mind my posting it. The item shows a professor of the black art as a respectable sort of person - maybe a conjuror - anyway, here it is.

Robert

[How Brown]

Thanks to Robert and the Old Professor for this clipping.

Here we have an entirely different definition of the term "black magic".

In this scenario,most likely a case of light hearted prestidigiation....like pulling an intelligent Texan out of a hat or something....;)

I like the comment...."The better we are decieved,the more we are pleased"...

This sort of sums up my personal feelings about how Stephenson has been portrayed since 1988's sensationalized segment on RDS in the "Secret Identity" program.

[Spiro]

Hi there,

Thanks Robert and John for this intriguing snippet. :clap:

It would seem that Signor Bosco was a travelling entertainer of sorts. It was common in Victorian times to equate the 'black arts' with stage magicians in an effort to sensationialise them for promotion. It's also easy to see how muddled the search for an 'occultist' during these times really is let alone a suspect for the Whitechapel murders performing black magic rituals.

I wonder if Donston was amongst the audience attending this demonstration. I would imagine he had a thing for spectacle.

Mons. Leotard Bosco was described at a concert in 1881 at The Flannel Exchange as "Signor Bosco, ‘the only Conjuror and Ventriloquist in the world’ ". Also at "Middlesex Music Hall, Drury Lane. Grand carnival night, Wednesday, Oct.20th, 1875. Mons. Leotard Bosco. The original royal magician. Madame De Lonno. The now celebrated wizard queen & humourist. In their beautiful enchanted palace of illusion."

He is also described as "The Royal Illusionist" and here is a portrait of him and his lovely assistant courtesy of the The British Library:

[How Brown]

Spiro:

Good to see you my man.

I am absolutely convinced that if Stephenson personally admitted he was a Walter Mitty character to the people who promote him unabashedly as a sinister black magic ritualist without any proof or even a victim of syphilis and someone desiring revenge on the class that afflicted him ( or contributed to his disease ) to those who may see him that way....that the former would call him a liar and the latter would call it quits regarding his suspect worthiness. Its that simple.

Give me an email when possible or p.m. on what you have been working on,okay?

Take care Spiro....watch out for those flying witchdoctors !:offinhead:

[Robert Linford]

Hi Spiro

Thanks for that. But I thought the idea of a lovely assistant was so that the audience would be watching her instead of the conjuror. Fat chance there!

Robert

[How Brown]

You ain't kidding Robert...;)

One possible concept that I'll add here and hopefully will be germane to this issue,is whether we accept Stephenson-as-Ripper......solely on what others have interpreted him as...and not what he may have been in reality.

Similar to Joe Blow being theorized as JTR because he had a history of abuse towards women and being promoted as a "misogynistic killer" by one or two people.

Then,later on, we find out that in addition to his misogyny....he suffered from the effects of syphilis during the period of time he murdered a few people/women.

The syphilis may have been the catalyst and not his misogyny,as his murdering was a result of the effects of syphilis. Yet, no one knew about his syphilis until his remains were examined after a few years and this fact surfaced.

However,the old explanations were still in vogue...because they were so associated with him.

Anyone understand what I mean here? Thanks....

[Peter Birchwood]

This is a technical term used for the sort of stage illusion where someone on stage in full view of the audience is seen to be cut into pieces. Horace Goldin, who may have invented this, called his illusion "The Dissected Woman" and you can still buy variants of this at magic stores.
Mr and Mrs Bosco (the "lovely assistant" )were very popular in Victorian times, I think that they genuinely were Italian unlike Chung Ling Soo, who was shot dead on the stage of the Wood Green Empire doing the bullet-catching and who was the American, William Robinson.

[Robert Linford]

This is probably him from the Times, Feb 7th 1878.

Robert

[John Savage]

Hi All,

Well I am glad you are all enjoying Signor Bosco, but it all seems a little strange, if not magical, to me.

You see whilst looking through the Bridlington newspapers last week, quite by chance I came across another small item which was of interest to our research into coroners; I sent it along to Robert and Dave O' and the next thing I know Signor Bosco is a hot topic.

I did read one or two small articles in the Bridlington newspapers about this guy, it seems he was appearing on stage at Bridlington; and for those of you who don't know Brid is a small seaside resort, so I suppose it was a sort of "end of the peir show". Bosco obviously used a similar ploy to Tumblety to get articles in the local press with the intent to create interest in his act, and next time I am in Bridlington looking for the other newspaper article on Donston, I will try and get some clippings of Signor Bosco for you all.

Mind you I think this guy was probably more Tommy Cooper than Alestair Crowley.

Rgds
John

[John Savage]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

By popular request I am proud to present, for your delight and edification.............. SIGNOR BOSCO

[Robert Linford]

Pre-eminent in prestidigitatory prowess and foremost in feathery fantasias...

Thanks John.

Robert