August 31st---Tumblety's movements

[How Brown]

On August 31st, Mrs.Polly Nichols is murdered in Bucks Row....

Somewhere...in London....Francis Tumbelty has committed a "gross indeceny" with a man/boy named Arthur Brice....also on August 31st.

I've asked this at Casebook and am waiting for an answer....

Where did this "gross indecency" occur ? Which side of town???

What time did this act occur?

Perhaps its mentioned in the transcripts of his court appearance on November 7th.

Does anyone know more about this incident ?

Because if any event during his stay in London hurts his candidacy,this might be it.

What do you think?

[Robert Linford]

Hi How

As far as I know, there's no record of precisely where these offences are alleged to have occurred, or what time of day. But the odds are that the August 31st one would have been after the murder of Nichols, not just before or during, so I don't see how that could rule Tumblety out.

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

Thanks buddy....you're right.

It was Friday morning,not evening that she was killed.

However.....

Tumbelty then commits sexual offenses later on the day with this guy Brice.

I'd still like to know what time it was and if it was in the West End.

Thanks for straightening me out R.C. :thumbsupbud:

[John Savage]

Hi Howard,

Regarding this spot of indecency between Tumbelty and Brice.

I am afraid that I cannot lay my hands on the press report at the moment, but if you have it it will probably have the name of the court at the beginning of the report, from this at least we should be able to determine if it happened in the east end or the west end. Failing that the name of the magistrate would help.

As these people were caught, the likely scenario is that they were "at it" in a public park or toilet, and if a park then I would think most probably at night.

I have read this report before, and as I recall it tells us very little, but the legal proceedings would have been in the area that the offence was committed.

Rgds
John

[How Brown]

Hi John !

Yes sir,I am aware that Tumbelty was brought up before the magistrate in the West End ( Marlborough Street ). Its 5 miles from where Nichols was killed. This of course doesn't mean that his tryst occurred in the West End...

Its very intriguing to say the least,as IF this mesalliance occurred in the early morning of Friday,the 31st...in the WEST END....then ????? Get my drift?;)

Maybe Joe Chetcuti,who is in the forefront of Tumbelty research,if not the main Tumbelty man,could supply some information for us on this situation.

Calling Joltin' Joe !!!

[John Savage]

Hi Howard,

If he was brought up before the Marlborough Street Magistrates then I think the offence would have occured in the area covered by that court, which would have been the west end.

But from Whitechapel to Oxford Circus [close toMarlborough Street] in a hansom cab would perhaps take about a quarter of an hour.

Rgds
John

[How Brown]

Thanks John..

He certainly had time to make it from Bucks Row ( theoretically if he was the Ripper ) by cab...

This means that he had to search out a cab and that NO hansom cabman would remember an early morning fare and to where from the general vicinity ( Whitechapel Road,most likely...in the wee morning hours).

In addition,its possible that he may have had blood on him ( which may not be important,since there is no way of knowing how he approached the cabman.).

In addition,he also makes his presence KNOWN to someone whom he has no idea how much he will remember should the police inquire within the cabman coterie....

Do you get my drift here,old prof. ?

[How Brown]

This from John Savage ( for reference purposes)

*********************

The police of the city of Westminster and the suburbs is under the jurisdiction of twenty-seven stipendiary magistrates, who hold their sittings from eleven in the morning till five in the evening, at the following police courts Bow Street; Covent Garden; Queen Square, Westminster ; Great Marlborough Street, High Street, Marylebone; Hatton Garden; Union Street, Borough; Worship Street, Shoreditch; and Lambeth Street, Whitechapel************

Robert/John:

Of course,Tumbelty-as-Ripper most likely went home after killing Polly....took a nap...and then went out and during the day decided to get intimate with Arthur Brice.

The only real question I have is where did the offense transpire and when.

Thats a whole lot of activity for a man who just murdered a woman a few hours back.

[Robert Linford]

It does seem a bit busy, How. Still, at least he didn't play cricket!

Robert

[A.P. Wolf]

If one searches for 'Paedobaptistry' (Kaylor), it does appear to indicate that Tumblety was in police custody at the time of Mary Kelly's murder, and a long time before.
For some reason I can't upload the article... probably 'cos I'm drunk. But worth the search.
was taken into custody on charges of ‘gross indecency’ committed with four
young men — John Doughty, Arthur Brice, Albert Fisher, and James Crowley.
1
Five days later, Tumblety was also charged on suspicion of having committed the
Whitechapel murders, a charge Scotland Yard was unable to substantiate
adequately. Although the British press never publicised Tumblety’s arrest
(maintaining a silence prompted perhaps by Scotland Yard), North American
newspapers did so immediately and with gusto.
2
Hence, Wilde could easily have
learned of these charges via gossip within his Uranian circle or via details from
American or Canadian newspapers, especially since a number of his friends and
acquaintances were expatriates, such as Robert Ross from Canada, or were
Americans, such as Edgar Saltus (1855-1921), another Decadent author.
3
Four
charges of sodomy and five charges of murder
4
— that was indeed a catalogue of
‘sins’ worthy of a Dorian Gray. However, on 16 November, James L. Hannay, a
magistrate of the Marlborough Street Magistrates Court, released Tumblety on
bail, from whence he fled to the Continent on 24 November,
was taken into custody on charges of ‘gross indecency’ committed with four
young men — John Doughty, Arthur Brice, Albert Fisher, and James Crowley.
1
Five days later, Tumblety was also charged on suspicion of having committed the
Whitechapel murders, a charge Scotland Yard was unable to substantiate
adequately. Although the British press never publicised Tumblety’s arrest
(maintaining a silence prompted perhaps by Scotland Yard), North American
newspapers did so immediately and with gusto.
2
Hence, Wilde could easily have
learned of these charges via gossip within his Uranian circle or via details from
American or Canadian newspapers, especially since a number of his friends and
acquaintances were expatriates, such as Robert Ross from Canada, or were
Americans, such as Edgar Saltus (1855-1921), another Decadent author.
3
Four
charges of sodomy and five charges of murder
4
— that was indeed a catalogue of
‘sins’ worthy of a Dorian Gray. However, on 16 November, James L. Hannay, a
magistrate of the Marlborough Street Magistrates Court, released Tumblety on
bail, from whence he fled to the Continent on 24 November,

Oh, it did work!
The important word is 'released'.

[John Savage]

Hi A.P.

Four charges of Sodomy and five charges of murder, yet they released him on bail!

That doesn't sound right to me.

Rgds
John

[Joe Chetcuti]

On Wednesday Nov 7, 1888 Tumblety was arrested for previously committing an act of gross indecency on four different people. The Evans & Gainey book pointed out that the offences with which he was charged were misdemeanours, not felonies, and were not serious enough to warrant his remand in custody. Since Tumblety was not brought before a court of summary jurisdiction within 24 hours of his arrest, the police were obliged to grant police bail, usually for seven days, whilst they prepared their case, gathered evidence, and drew up charges. Despite this, there are those who really don't like to believe that Tumblety was released on Nov 7th for a week while the police prepared their case for these misdemeanour charges.

Post #10 tells of a paper showing that (on Nov 12th) Tumblety was charged for committing five murders. If this paperwork is accurate, then those who think Tumblety "was in police custody on Nov 9th" can not also believe that Kelly was amongst the five murder victims mentioned.

How about trying it this other way instead...if Tumblety truly was charged on Nov 12th for committing five murders, then the Kelly murder would have been one of the five. One of the reasons why Tumblety would have been charged for committing the Kelly murder was due to the knowledge that the doctor was not in police custody on Nov 9th.

Personally, I don't think the guy was formally charged with any murders.

[A.P. Wolf]

Hey John, if Tumblety had left you with about £1000 in cash and then jumped bail, would you want him back?
What would a thousand LVP pounds be worth today?
Looking at the above, somewhat jumbled report, if Tumblety was released on the 16th November; and had been in custody for five days prior to being charged on suspicion of complicity in the Whitechapel Murders, then it would appear that he was in custody at the time of Kelly's murder.

[A.P. Wolf]

So Joe, between the 7th & 14th November, we are asked to believe that Tumblety, who was over 60 in 1888, decided to stop seducing young men and went out and completely butchered a young lady... when he was on police bail?
Then he was brought back into custody, and because he was wearing a slouch hat, was arrested on suspicion of the Whitechapel Murders, but then released again on police bail a few days later.
Something not quite right here I feel.
And then we still have the report I found which gives Tumblety's arrest in London as the 27th September 1888.

[How Brown]

A.P.

6 or 1/2 dozen of the other,but Tumbelty was 55 in 1888. Irrelevant to the point you were and are making....but this was his correct age in 1888.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks How, 'sunny side of sixty' is how I read it in the New York press.
And that's where I am now, and I couldn't gut a big fish let alone slaughter a woman in five minutes.

[Joe Chetcuti]

People will read many different accounts about Tumblety's year of birth. As for myself, I believe he was born in Ireland during January-May 1830 and that he was 58 years old at the time of the Whitechapel murders. A couple of years ago another researcher showed me a 1847 document where Mrs. Margaret Tumblety listed her son as being 17 years old. Tumblety's family agreed with this in 1903 when they engraved "73 years old" on the doctor's tombstone.

Yes A.P. I believe Tumblety was released from police custody on Nov 7th and committed the Kelly murder on Nov 9th. His homosexual assaults on young men continued until at least mid November 1890. I've got to be extra nice to A.P. today because I have yet to see that Dec 31st Atchison Daily Globe article we've been hearing about. I'm hoping we can woo A.P. into sharing it with us! Boy, that A.P. is one heck of an author and researcher! If I ever have a kid, I'll be sure to name the child A.P. You know, I think A.P. stands for Astute Professor!! (Pssst... if anybody else has that doggone news article, will ya post it up right away. I'm getting nauseated here!)

[Donald Souden]

AP

What would a thousand LVP pounds be worth today?

According to measuringworth.com a bundle.

£74,224.24 using the retail price index
£98,933.36 using the GDP deflator
£454,567.81 using average earnings
£662,840.62 using per caputa GDP
£918,877.61 using GDP

In any case, a lot of cabbage.

Don.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Yeah, but what I'd like to know is how many packages of Top Ramen would a thousand pounds get you in 1888? There is nothing quite like gourmet cooking.

Back to Dr. T's age. Besides having the words "aged 73 years" engraved on his tombstone in 1903, and besides there being a June 1847 document where Mrs. Margaret Tumblety declared her son Francis to be 17 (and her daughter Ann to be 20), there is also the 1850 Federal census. The age listed in that census for Francis was 19, and 22 for Ann.

The final point to be made on whether or not Tumblety was in police custody during the Kelly murder is that the Littlechild Letter helps out here. Littlechild expressed to Sims that he knew Tumblety was a frequent visitor to London. He knew the police had compiled a large dossier on him. And he knew of Tumblety's Nov 7th arrest for unnatural offences. It wouldn't follow suit if Littlechild "didn't know" whether or not Tumblety was in police custody just two days later on Nov 9th.

Littlechild knew Tumblety was charged at Marlboro Street on Nov 7th, and one of the reasons why he considered Tumblety a likely suspect was because he realized the doctor was not in police custody on Nov 9th. That's how the Littlechild Letter should be interpreted.

And even if for some reason Littlechild didn't know off hand whether or not Tumblety was in custody on Nov 9th, are we expected to believe that the Chief Inspector was never in a position to ascertain this simple information? Nah, despite each angle I look at it, the premise that Tumblety "was in police custody on Nov 9th" just comes across to me as pretty weak. Everybody should have just believed the Evans & Gainey book's explanation of it years ago.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks for all that info Joe.
I haven't posted the article concerned because it is an entire page and such things always defeat my efforts to manipulate them into a viewable format, but I'll give it a go later tonight when I'm up to my neck in cabbage and brandy.
Thanks Don.

Joe, I gotta tell you that I'm a bit wary of this whole thing, the arrest date is so close to the murder of Kelly that I can't quite see Tumblety being released on police bail between the two events, mainly because his offence was a very serious one indeed... in that age.
I suppose the devil is in the detail, so I'll have to study all that a bit more, but I must say that the garbled post I posted previously does appear to indicate that Tumblety was in custody at the time of Kelly's murder.
Perhaps you have material that indicates otherwise?
Be glad to see it anytime.

Frankly, Tumblety's age at the time of the murders bothers me a great deal.
I don't think he could have squawked a chicken.

[SirRobertAnderson]

It sure is some serious change, Don.

The question I have is whether we have an idea what a "normal" bail amount would have been back then for 'indecent assault' , etc. ? Was this an abnormally high figure for that offence ?

AP

What would a thousand LVP pounds be worth today?

According to measuringworth.com a bundle.

£74,224.24 using the retail price index
£98,933.36 using the GDP deflator
£454,567.81 using average earnings
£662,840.62 using per caputa GDP
£918,877.61 using GDP

In any case, a lot of cabbage.

Don.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Sir Robert,

The Bucks County Gazette of Dec 13, 1888 spoke of the bail money set for Tumblety:

"...the London courts made it very expensive for (Tumblety) and put him under bail for $1,500..."