The signatures of George Hutchinson - what is the latest thinking?

[Chris Scott]

To help with a line of research I am about to embark on, I need to pick the brains of my friends on Forums.
Hutchinson's statement runs over three handwritten pages, each of which bears a signature at the bottom. Logically these should all be the signature of the witness, i.e. Hutchinson, as acknowledgement that he had read and agreed to the content of the statement.
However there has been discussion over the years as to which if any of these signatures are really that of George Hutchinson. There are differences, some minor (as in on Page 2 the forename is abbreviated to Geo). However the major point of difference is the highly idiosyncratic capital letter H of the surname on Page 1. This is significantly different to the H on pages 2 and 3.
To me the signatures on Pages 2 and 3 could well be by the same hand but I have doubts about that on Page 1.
Your opinions would be very much welcomed before I start the work I am about to do
Many thanks
Chris

The three specimens are below:-

[Scott Nelson]

The "i" in examples 1 and 3 are dotted past the crossed "t" and the dots are over the letter "s" in both instances as well. But in all three examples, the cross in the "t" is past (right of) the t and through the "h" -- suggesting similarity.

[Tracy Ianson]

Hi Chris/Scott

I would say the George/Geo in all three are quite similar, the r being a little different, however the Hutchinson in 1 seems to differ from that of 2 and 3 in a few aspects.

If I had to I would say 1 was a different signature but 2 and 3 I would lean towards being the same. Maybe he signed the 1st page and someone else did the others?

Tracy

[Robert Linford]

I have no idea why someone would sign himself "GeoHutchinson" instead of "Geo Hutchinson."

[Robert Linford]

In 3, he seems to have crossed the 'h' instead of the 't'.

[Debra Arif]

It was suggested in past discussion that Sgt. Badham may have signed one or more of the pages for GH.
Here's two examples of styles of 'H' used by Badham in the 1911 census (that's if Badham did definitely fill in and sign the form) :

10824 10825

It may not help as this also shows that Badham himself used two different styles of aitch in the time it took to fill in the form.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Debs
That is very useful - and many thanks for all the other observations as well
That fancy H of Badham is very suggestive but this way of writing the letter may not have been that uncommon. I have more work to do:-)
One of the entries I am looking at is below as just another example
Hope all is well Debs and that you got my message the other day
regards
Chris

[Dave O]

"That fancy H of Badham is very suggestive but this way of writing the letter may not have been that uncommon. I have more work to do:-)"

Hi Chris,

Dunno if this will help you or not, but if you're interested in similarities outside of what you're looking at, I think of Curtain Chivers' handwriting. Here are some examples with the letter "H".

Dave

[Dave O]

Also on handwriting styles: here's an example of Roderick Macdonald's signature--this is his hand and not someone else's: "RMacdonald", an abbreviation similar to "GeoHutchison", so perhaps this style of signing one's own name wasn't uncommon. Below that is one of the many examples of Macdonald crossing his t's way over to the side, where he actually crosses his h--"thatshe". There's some variation word to word, but it's very common that he crossed his t's like he does here, carrying the cross over to the next letter.

Again, don't know if it's helpful, but I hope it is.

Dave

[Bob Hinton]

It is also worth mentioning that GWT Hutchinsons signature on his marriage certificate bears no resemblance to any of the statement signatures.

[Debra Arif]

Hi Debs
That is very useful - and many thanks for all the other observations as well
That fancy H of Badham is very suggestive but this way of writing the letter may not have been that uncommon. I have more work to do:-)
One of the entries I am looking at is below as just another example
Hope all is well Debs and that you got my message the other day
regards
Chris

Hi Chris,
At first I assumed the signature you posted in this post was one of the ones from the police statement, now I see it isn't. It looks very similar though, not the style of the H either, the ending of the signature is very similar too. Is this perhaps the signature of someone you are researching as GH?
I did get your message by the way, and thanks very much! Been simmering down a little...taking deep breaths. LOL.

[Debra Arif]

Also on handwriting styles: here's an example of Roderick Macdonald's signature--this is his hand and not someone else's: "RMacdonald", an abbreviation similar to "GeoHutchison", so perhaps this style of signing one's own name wasn't uncommon. Below that is one of the many examples of Macdonald crossing his t's way over to the side, where he actually crosses his h--"thatshe". There's some variation word to word, but it's very common that he crossed his t's like he does here, carrying the cross over to the next letter.

Again, don't know if it's helpful, but I hope it is.

Dave

Hi Dave,
Thanks for these, very interesting that it may have been an accepted style of writing ones signature.
Enjoyed the Chivers stuff too, for other reasons. They sent post cards asking a coroner about doing a post mortem after a suspicious death? I never imagined that, I don't know why. Anyway, that's off topic so I'll shut up now.

[Bob Hinton]

When I was researching 'my' GH I couldn't find him anywhere in the 1881. However I had an idea and searched under 'Geo' instead of George and there he was in the official records as 'Geo'.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Chris,
At first I assumed the signature you posted in this post was one of the ones from the police statement, now I see it isn't. It looks very similar though, not the style of the H either, the ending of the signature is very similar too. Is this perhaps the signature of someone you are researching as GH?
I did get your message by the way, and thanks very much! Been simmering down a little...taking deep breaths. LOL.

Hi Debs
Yes - this is someone I am looking at at the moment - not from the police statement. It looks decidedly similar to me but I am very wary of judging just on handwriting.
Take it easy and chat soon
Chris

[Chris Scott]

Many thanks to everyone for the info and the writing sample - all are very useful and much appreciated
Chris

[Debra Arif]

Hi Debs
Yes - this is someone I am looking at at the moment - not from the police statement. It looks decidedly similar to me but I am very wary of judging just on handwriting.
Take it easy and chat soon
Chris

Exciting stuff, I look forward to the results, Chris! A definite similarity there I would say, although I did also see a similarity with GWTH's signature and Shadwell GH from 1911 too...just shows what I know! ;) I once saw a Hutchinson who was not named George who had a very similar 1911 signature to GH too.
Good luck with it.

[Wicker Man]

It was suggested in past discussion that Sgt. Badham may have signed one or more of the pages for GH.


This then should be taken as a response to whomever made that suggestion.

A voluntary statement given by a witness is a legal document.
There have been cases where an illiterate witness can only make their mark, where the investigating officer will then make note that, "this is the mark of (name)".
But in no case should we entertain a situation where a policeman writes the name of the witness in place of the witnesses own signature.
The signature of the witness represents their 'sworn word' of accuracy within the above.
Because these three signatures are all on the same document (consisting of three pages), we have every cause to accept them as original to the witness, regardless of any minor differences.

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra Arif]

This then should be taken as a response to whomever made that suggestion.

A voluntary statement given by a witness is a legal document.
There have been cases where an illiterate witness can only make their mark, where the investigating officer will then make note that, "this is the mark of (name)".
But in no case should we entertain a situation where a policeman writes the name of the witness in place of the witnesses own signature.
The signature of the witness represents their 'sworn word' of accuracy within the above.
Because these three signatures are all on the same document (consisting of three pages), we have every cause to accept them as original to the witness, regardless of any minor differences.

Regards, Jon S.



"A note of interest for the conspiracy minded readership is that Hutchinson's apparently genuine signature on the first page does not quite match those on the following pages. It could be a variant signature, or possibly he failed to sign the second two pages by mistake and the subsequent signatures were added by a police officer to cover the oversight (probably Badham himself)."

Suspect and Witness - The Police Viewpoint
By Stewart P. Evans

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-witness.html?printer=true

[Wicker Man]

One might wonder how many known examples exist of this scenario.

[Debra Arif]

One might wonder how many known examples exist of this scenario.

I did come across a recent news article that looks like a police officer was prosecuted for doing the exact same thing, although I am unsure what a 'witness care' box might be, so perhaps it is a different scenario?

Policeman forged witness signature (http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/Sacked-PC-forged-witness-signature-faces-losing-pension/story-11631807-detail/story.html)

Could it be that things were just much more lax in the LVP and until quite recent times and it was acceptable practice? Could already having a genuine signature on the first page make a difference perhaps?

[Chris Scott]

"A note of interest for the conspiracy minded readership is that Hutchinson's apparently genuine signature on the first page does not quite match those on the following pages. It could be a variant signature, or possibly he failed to sign the second two pages by mistake and the subsequent signatures were added by a police officer to cover the oversight (probably Badham himself)."

Suspect and Witness - The Police Viewpoint
By Stewart P. Evans

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-witness.html?printer=true

Hi Debs
I don't know how much credence folk will put in this. A friend of mine and a near neighbour is a professional graphologist. Not of the iffy kind that claims to tell your future or give advice on your love life! The professional kind that analyses handwriting as a science - she works freelance for private companies and public bodies.
On a whim I showed her the three Hutch signatures in the first post in this thread. I did not ask for (and she did not offer) any kind of personality analysis but only what the chances were that all were from the same hand.
Her conclusion was that the second and third signatures were almost certainly from the same hand (she quoted the probabilty as 90-95%).
However it was her opinion that the probability that the signature on the first page being by the same person as pages 2 and 3 was as low as 35%.
I know that graphology has a very varied reputation but she is a very level headed and mature lady.
I gave no hint as to the context of the signatures nor any indication it was connected with the Ripper case or indeed any criminal document.
make of it what you will
Chris

[Tracy Ianson]

On a whim I showed her the three Hutch signatures in the first post in this thread. I did not ask for (and she did not offer) any kind of personality analysis but only what the chances were that all were from the same hand.
Her conclusion was that the second and third signatures were almost certainly from the same hand (she quoted the probabilty as 90-95%).
However it was her opinion that the probability that the signature on the first page being by the same person as pages 2 and 3 was as low as 35%.
I know that graphology has a very varied reputation but she is a very level headed and mature lady.

Well I think she makes a good solid diagnosis and would go with her opinion ;)

Tracy

[Debra Arif]

Hi Chris,
There definitely seems to be something about that first signature for people to keep choosing it as the 'odd one out'.

[Chris G.]

Hi Chris

To me the "George" or "Geo" is fairly identical in all three examples, despite the "H" in Hutchinson being different and linked or not with the Christian name. And although the surname is rendered differently, the "s" looks identical in all three examples with the same slope and shape. For my money, these signatures could be all written by the same man.

Best regards

Chris

[Wicker Man]

Could it be that things were just much more lax in the LVP and until quite recent times and it was acceptable practice? Could already having a genuine signature on the first page make a difference perhaps?

Slackness at any level is always possible.
We might expect it more at the street level, than from officers like Badham & Ellisdon.

The reason I think Stewart is incorrect is because Hutchinson will not even get up from the interview until he has signed those papers. It will be Badham's job to make sure he does.
Its not like witness interviews are a rare occurrence, these officers likely conducted numerous interviews, so making sure the witness signed before they arose from the table would be a matter of formality.

Hutchinson signs in front of Badham, and Badham then signs in front of Hutchinson. Badham is making sure the statement is correct, in effect that is what his signature is also confirming.
Ellisdon then signs his name giving his assurance that it is also correct.

Whether Arnold was present in the interview is unknown, and his presence was not necessary. But, Arnold as the head of Whitechapel H Division signs all outgoing documents.

The statement was forwarded to Abberline at Central Office, which is why we see his name at the bottom left, he is the addressee.
The statement was submitted to Abberline, who presumably, on receipt of the same, came down to Commercial St. to interrogate Hutchinson himself. This document (Abberline's interrogation of Hutchinson) has not survived.

Sorry for apparently going of on a tangent about Abberline, but there is a point for this.
Hutchinson was still kept at Commercial St. while the statement was sent to Central Office, to Abberline. Therefore, there was no need for anyone to attempt to replicate Hutchinson's signature on the statement before it was sent, he was still in the building, and would be for an hour or more.

I don't see a suitable reason for anyone trying to replicate his signature.
If his name had been spelled out in block capitals or printed, not written, then yes I would think someone else had written his name in his absence, but this is not the case.

Jon S.

[Debra Arif]

When I compare just the 'utchinson' section of the signatures, I see a lot of similarity between all three.
It's very difficult.

[Livia Trivia]

Another trick graphologists use:

Try turning the three samples upside down and comparing
the angle of the slant. Also while they're in this position,
look at them not as writing or individual words, but as a whole,
from a slight distance, and then look for similarities.

Liv

[Chris Scott]

When I compare just the 'utchinson' section of the signatures, I see a lot of similarity between all three.
It's very difficult.

Hi Debs - me too - it is just that odd H on the first page that is the problem!