Major Lord Henry Arthur George Somerset

[Karen]

Or more "affectionately" called Lord Arthur Somerset by his odd assortment of friends. He was known to have associated with people of higher social standing and military rank so he could weasel his way out of trouble. He was also the equerry of the Prince of Wales' stables.

Lord Somerset was involved in the Cleveland Street Scandal of 1889, whereupon, after an investigation of a theft at the Postal Office, several telegraph boys pointed him out as one of the men who frequented the Cleveland Street gay brothel. He was never married as far as I know and was either homosexual/bisexual.

He resided at the Hyde Park/Knightsbridge Barracks until the Fall of 1889, when after the debacle of Cleveland Street, he fled to Boulogne, France. He never did set foot in England again and died in France in 1926. Contrary to popular belief at Casebook, he was not actually incontinent until the last few years of his life.

[How Brown]

Karen:

One of the "problems" with suspects such as Stephenson ( who is of particular interest to me not only for his possibility as a suspect,but for other reasons peripheral to the WM) is that there appears to be little evidence of criminal behavior prior to the actual crimes committed in London. I use Stephenson here to not derail your thread on Somerset.....

For the benefit of all,is there any evidence of a criminal past that led you to become interested in Somerset ?



Thank you.

[Karen]

Other than the pedophilia, indubitably, however being such a prominent Aristocrat, he was always defended by the Royal Family or Army Generals. For instance, when the investigation of the Cleveland Street Scandal was underway, the Prince of Wales vehemently denied Somerset's involvement by stating, "I won't believe it, any more than I should if they accused the Archbishop of Canterbury." In my book, Somerset was an accomplice.

[How Brown]

Karen:

Thanks for the reply.

Is pedophilia the only known evidence of criminal behavior on Somerset's part that you found?

[Karen]

No, but I cannot answer that at the moment as my book is still about to be reviewed and it would be giving away the plot if I told you. I am sorry for that, but if you would like a review copy, How, I can PM or e-mail you the contact information of the promotions department of AuthorHouse. You would then receive your copy in approximately 5-7 working days.

[Stan Russo]

Karen,

What gave it away for you, regarding the fact that Somerset was possibly homosexual?

Was it the fact that he was implicated in the Cleveland Street Scandal, which involved a male prostitution ring of young boys?

Also, a few more questions

A) Did you write a book on the subject?
B) I was wondering where someone could buy this book or find out info on it?
C) What do you think about your own book? An adjective please, such as "great" would suffice.
D) How do the words "epiphany" and "detective" work in conjunction?

Stan

Author of: the above post

[Stan Russo]

Sorry.

I just couldn't resist.

[Karen]

That's alright, Stan. I can take destructive criticism.

[Stan Russo]

Perhaps a little humility, and definately some decaf as well

[Karen]

Well, Howie requested that I start this thread on Somerset. So, if you have a particular issue with it, I would recommend that you discuss this with him. I'm sorry that beginning a thread would be so inflammatory to you. I think I will just stick to caf though.

Thank you Stan.

[Karen]

I recommend that we keep discussions topical, since this thread is entitled "Major Lord Henry Arthur George Somerset".

It is not a debate on the pros and cons of regular coffee vs. decaf.

[Karen]

So ends my thread on Lord Arthur Somerset, unless anyone has any more queries pertaining to him.

[How Brown]

Karen:

That was quick...;)

So in essence....you are basing your view of Somerset as the Ripper totally on his loyalty to the Crown and his pedophilia?

Thanks in advance...

[Karen]

How:

You misunderstood me - Lord Arthur was an accomplice in the Jack The Ripper murders. He didn't actually kill anyone. My book contains 6 suspects, How.

Five "Jacks" and one "Ripper"

[How Brown]

Karen:

Thank you for the explanation.

Who,out of curiosity,where the other conspirators? :)

Thank you.

[Karen]

Jacks: Lord Arthur Somerset
Prince Albert Victor - I do have incontrovertible evidence
Henry James Fitzroy
William Humble Ward
Herbrand Arthur Russell

Ripper: A brilliant, eminent Surgeon, who I cannot name, as again - it would be giving away too much at this stage.

[Karen]

Does anyone else have any questions regarding Lord Arthur Somerset or any of my other suspects?

[Magpie]

Is there any evidence that Somerset was a pedophile?

When asked about previous criminal activity, we're told that he was a pedophile, but is there evidence of that?

I thought the Cleveland Street scandal was about homosexuality, pure and simple. Is there more to it than that?

[How Brown]

Magpie:


I guess its a matter of whether one considers an underaged ( below 18 ) male being mishandled by an older man, pedolphilia.

Its possible I suppose that Somerset having sexual relations with a less than 18 year old male can be considered pedophilia,like having sex with a 17 year old girl if you are overage is considered a criminal offense.

I dunno.....anyone else?

[TimeRover]

How
Initially the age of consent was 10 yrs, then raised to 16 in 1885.

I found this article on the web relating to the subject, though it speaks primarily of young girls:
Protection, Harm and Social Evil: the Age of Consent since 1885
Paper for presentation at Evil, Law and the State Conference, Oxford, July 2004
Shani D’Cruze, Manchester Metropolitan University

http://www.wickedness.net/els/els1/dcruze%20paper.pdf

And I quote:
"In enacting that it was ‘no offence to have sexual intercourse with a girl under 12 who ‘freely consented’ however ignorant’, the 1861 Act maintained the age of consent at 10, two years before the age of valid marriage."

"The furore about child prostitution of the 1880s however, had as its legislative outcome in the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885, a raising of the age of consent to 16."

So if a young lad was 16 or older (providing the law applied to boys as well as girls) it would be a homosexual relationship, not pedophilia, as the boy would be considered capable of giving consent.

By the way -- the quote on page 10 of this article is quite amusing (and revealing) in its own way:

"GR, a British army officer in India between the wars, wrote that;-
I naturally prefer to satisfy myself with a woman, a friend and a lady of my own class, but in the absence of the best I naturally take the next best available, down the scale from a lady for whom I do not care, to prostitutes of all classes and colours, men, boys and animals, melons and masturbation."

One would have thought the last option would have rated higher than fruit.

TimeRover

[John Savage]

Hi All,

I think we need to be careful about suggesting that Lord Alfred Somerset was a paedophile as these days it has become a somewhat emotive word. Dictionary definitions would describe a paedophile as one who is sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children, so we should remember that the boys involved in the Cleveland Street Scandal were from ages 15 - 21 and all attendended the brothel at 19 Cleveland Street with a clear knowledge of what was to take place, and how much they would be paid.

All we can say is that it was quite likely that Somerset made use of rent boys, a quite different matter from the seduction of innocent children.

With regard to the Criminal Law Ammendment Act of 1885, section 11 ( the Labouchere ammendment) made all homosexual activity between males illegal, so I don't suppose age of consent came into it.

Rgds
John

[Magpie]

Hi John.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. Thanks

[How Brown]

Thanks John and Magpie for bringing this up.

Somerset has had his tit in the ringer already with Karen's sillyassed nonsense.

Jana:

Thank you for finding that online. Much appreciated....:thumbsupbud:

[TimeRover]

With regard to the Criminal Law Ammendment Act of 1885, section 11 ( the Labouchere ammendment) made all homosexual activity between males illegal, so I don't suppose age of consent came into it.

That's a genuine "duh" on my part. Why else would old Oscar end up in jail?
Sorry for being a bit dense.

TimeRover

[John Savage]

Hi Howard,

Somerset has had his tit in the ringer

Is this some sort of perversion carried on at Cleveland Street of which I am unaware?

Rgds
John

[Magpie]

Somerset has had his tit in the ringer

Is this some sort of perversion carried on at Cleveland Street of which I am unaware?



It probably was included in the premium plan.

[Debbie D]

Hi All,

I think we need to be careful about suggesting that Lord Alfred Somerset was a paedophile as these days it has become a somewhat emotive word. Dictionary definitions would describe a paedophile as one who is sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children, so we should remember that the boys involved in the Cleveland Street Scandal were from ages 15 - 21 and all attendended the brothel at 19 Cleveland Street with a clear knowledge of what was to take place, and how much they would be paid.

All we can say is that it was quite likely that Somerset made use of rent boys, a quite different matter from the seduction of innocent children.

With regard to the Criminal Law Ammendment Act of 1885, section 11 ( the Labouchere ammendment) made all homosexual activity between males illegal, so I don't suppose age of consent came into it.

Rgds
John


10 years old or 15 years old.... While I agree that pedophile is not the right word in the Cleveland street case, it's still not right for a grown man to take advantage of a teenage boy. When I was fifteen I thought I knew everything and was very grown up, but now looking back I was just a young dumb teenage girl.

19-20.... well maybe I'll give in and say they had a better mind set to make consent decisions, but not at 15.

[Magpie]

Hi Debbie.

The point is that when someone asked Karen for evidence of past criminal activity on Somerset's part, the only thing she could come up with was "pedophilia". What John is pointing out (and I agree with him) is that while what he may have been doing would be pedophilia according to modern law, in 1888 the youths involved were well above the legal age of consent--hence the "crime" in Somerset's behaviour was due to the gender of the prostitutes, not their age.

The thing is that while Somerset's taste's may have been distasteful by modern standards, and illegal by Victorian law, they weren't "criminal" in the sense of providing evidence of a predisposition to commit murder.

Just for clarification, Somerset would more properly called a pedarest, rather than a pedophile, would he not?

[Magpie]

Hi John:

I guess we hit a nerve:

Magpie is a fool who really needs to do research. Charles Swinscow, was only 8 years old, when questioned by Police, he stated that Lord ARTHUR Somerset was a regular customer at the gay brothel and would "put his person's into me" and "have a go between my legs" Magpie, why don't you do some freaken research instead of stealing photographs.

Since you seem to be fairly knowledgable about the CSA, can you tell us whether the Post Office was in the habit of hiring 8-year-olds to deliver telegrams?

[Debbie D]

Hi Debbie.

The point is that when someone asked Karen for evidence of past criminal activity on Somerset's part, the only thing she could come up with was "pedophilia". What John is pointing out (and I agree with him) is that while what he may have been doing would be pedophilia according to modern law, in 1888 the youths involved were well above the legal age of consent--hence the "crime" in Somerset's behaviour was due to the gender of the prostitutes, not their age.

The thing is that while Somerset's taste's may have been distasteful by modern standards, and illegal by Victorian law, they weren't "criminal" in the sense of providing evidence of a predisposition to commit murder.

Just for clarification, Somerset would more properly called a pedarest, rather than a pedophile, would he not?

Magpie...
I'm more or less going by today's standards. Even for the time, though I would still see it as a bit "questionable"... but I do appreciate what you are saying.

[Magpie]

Magpie...
I'm more or less going by today's standards. Even for the time, though I would still see it as a bit "questionable"... but I do appreciate what you are saying.

Thanks Debbie.

I don't want to come across as an apologist for pedophiles, because I'm certainly not. I was strictly framing this in terms of Karen's claim that Somerset was, by Victorian legal standards not a pedophile.

Actuallly, it looks like Karen was under the mistaken idea that the rentboys at Cleveland St were around 8 years old, but I'll hold off on commenting on that until John can confirm Scinscow's real age.

[John Savage]

Hi Magpie,

As far as I can recall Swinscow was aged 15 at the time, but I am afraid I have no books at home on the Cleveland Stret Scandal, however I will check early next week when I can get to the library.

You may remember that the police became involved when a post office telegraph boy was found to have more money on him than would have been usual, and the post office policeman P.C. Hanks became suspicious. Now I am pretty confident when I say that I don't think the post office employed 8 year olds.

More next week when I have had time to brush up and present the facts correctly.

Rgds
John

[Magpie]

Hi John.

That's what I figured. I checked Skinner and Evans "Scotland Yard Files" and they say he was 15.

[Robert Linford]

Hi John

Found this review, Mar 11 1976

[John Savage]

Hi Robert,

Many thanks for that you have saved me a trip to the library, H. Montgomery Hyde is the book I was going to check.

Rgds
John
PS I loved the sausages!

[Debbie D]

Hi John.

That's what I figured. I checked Skinner and Evans "Scotland Yard Files" and they say he was 15.

I looked in my book and it said this boy was born in 1874 which would have put him at 15 in 1889. This is from "The Cleveland Street Scandal" by H. Montgomery Hyde.

[GCW]

The vital statistics for Swinscow are as follows:

England and Wales Birth Index 1837-1983
Name: Charles Thomas Swinscow
Year of Registration: 1873
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Islington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 210

England and Wales Marriage Index 1837-1983
Name: Charles Thomas Swinscow
Year of Registration: 1900
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Islington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 476

England and Wales Death Index 1837-1983
Name: Charles Thomas Swinscow
Year of Registration: 1945
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Islington
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 103

Hope this clarifies things.

Graham W.

[TimeRover]

Hi all!
Do you recommend the H. Montgomery Hyde book over Colin Simpson's book of the same name? I've not conducted any research into the scandal and might as well start with a reputable book on the subject.

Thanks!

TimeRover

[Debbie D]

I looked in my book and it said this boy was born in 1874 which would have put him at 15 in 1889. This is from "The Cleveland Street Scandal" by H. Montgomery Hyde.


This would be for Swinscow. I forgot to add this to my original post.

[Debbie D]

Hi all!
Do you recommend the H. Montgomery Hyde book over Colin Simpson's book of the same name? I've not conducted any research into the scandal and might as well start with a reputable book on the subject.

Thanks!

TimeRover

TR,
I've only perused bits n pieces of it so far... but it seems to be filled with dates and places. There are also some nice pictures.

[TimeRover]

Deb
I've pretty much kept my focus to right around 1888, but every now and then it helps to shift a bit into the future to see where things are headed.

Thanks!
TimeRover

[John Savage]

Hi Time Rover,

If you want a book on the Cleveland Street Scandal, either H Montgomery Hyde, or Simpson, Leith and Chester are both well worth reading.

Graham,
Thanks for the details of Swinscow and interesting to know that he eventually married in 1900, so I guess that he must have overcome his early experience.

Rgds
John

[TimeRover]

John
Thanks. I'll round up some copies. They'll prove an interesting study in how Abberline conducted his investigation (boy, did he get the hot potatoes) and maybe even insight into how strings where pulled in the upper echelons to shield their own.

TimeRover

[Magpie]

Thanks for the tip, John. I will have to keep an eye out for those.