Jack the Patient

[Magpie]

Here's the abstract of an article I ran across on Pubmed:

Jack the Ripper and doctor-identification.
Shuster S.
It is possible that Jack the Ripper can be understood in terms of doctor-identification borne of one or more terrifying experiences he may have had with doctors during his childhood. The fantasies acted out by this primitive murderer are similar to the fantasies experienced by people who have been surgically traumatized as children. The evidence suggests that the activities of Jack the Ripper resemble the acting-out of a horror story in which he, as the main character, played to the population of London as an actor plays to his audience, through the need to discharge anxiety and regain some kind of emotional balance. When his depredation failed to achieve the desired results for him, the Ripper probably commited suicide.

Int J Psychiatry Med. 1975;6(3):385-402

[How Brown]

Good find,Magpie.:clap:

Thats sort of the thing that "worries" me about these crimes....that the Ripper-as-anonymous-patient/person just took a dive off a bridge and his body never surfaced or identity never known:o

What do you think of the idea that the Ripper was the first full blown on a major scale example of the bad side of the Industrial Revolution,which supplied so many millions with its gifts and benefits,but unfortunately not so many to those who toiled in Britain during its rise?

[Magpie]

Good find,Magpie.:clap:


Thank you:)


Thats sort of the thing that "worries" me about these crimes....that the Ripper-as-anonymous-patient/person just took a dive off a bridge and his body never surfaced or identity never known:o



I wouldn't take the part about suicide too seriously in this case. It's not a major part of the author's theory as such, and he's more or less going with the the prevailing opinion of the 70's and 80's (that serial killers only stop if they are caught or kill themselves) and/or the then current thinking about the Ripper's likely end. Over the last thirty years we've gone from the "that must be it" to the more realistic "that is a valid viewpoint, along with many others".

It's easy to see where the theory of doctor identification would be even more apt for the LVP than today, since even the most minor surgery was a painful and terrifying ordeal, especially for the poor.

Lest anyone thinks I'm giving props to Cornwell here, let me be perfectly clear that my problem with Sickerts surgery is not that it wouldn't have been traumatic, but that Cornwell never proved that the surgery she described ever even happened.



What do you think of the idea that the Ripper was the first full blown on a major scale example of the bad side of the Industrial Revolution,which supplied so many millions with its gifts and benefits,but unfortunately not so many to those who toiled in Britain during its rise?

Oh I think that's totally valid. Without the Industrial Revolution, Jack would neither have existed, nor had the environment in which to exist.

[Stephen Leece]

"It is possible that Jack the Ripper can be understood in terms of doctor-identification borne of one or more terrifying experiences he may have had with doctors during his childhood."

Magpie!- you're straying dangerously close into Patircia Cornwell territory with that one. Behave yourself!

Regards

Stephen

[Magpie]

"It is possible that Jack the Ripper can be understood in terms of doctor-identification borne of one or more terrifying experiences he may have had with doctors during his childhood."

Magpie!- you're straying dangerously close into Patircia Cornwell territory with that one. Behave yourself!

Regards

Stephen

Hi Stephen.

You'll notice that I spotted and (hopefully) neutralized that threat in my follow-up post. :thumbsupbud:

Sickert never showed any signs whatsoever of doctor-identification that I'm aware of.

[Stephen Leece]

Ah damn it Magpie I'm sorry- didn't notice your follow up post! Thought you'd defected to the loony Ripper party for a minute there!

[Magpie]

Ah damn it Magpie I'm sorry- didn't notice your follow up post! Thought you'd defected to the loony Ripper party for a minute there!

No harm done :)

On the other hand it's too bad for Cornie that she didn't divert some of her research megabucks to get a medline account and spend 5 minutes or so to find the article which might, with a little judicious twisting of context, have given her some apparent scientific support for her Sickert fairy-tale.

(oh, and I should point on that nothing in my first post is from me--it is a simple cut and paste of the abstract of the article)

[How Brown]

Without the Industrial Revolution, Jack would neither have existed, nor had the environment in which to exist.- Magpie

Magpie....thats an intangible that I agree 100 percent on. Without the Big Wheel of Progress...the little broken cog doesn't exist.

Period.

[Chris G.]

Here's the abstract of an article I ran across on Pubmed:

Jack the Ripper and doctor-identification.
Shuster S.
It is possible that Jack the Ripper can be understood in terms of doctor-identification borne of one or more terrifying experiences he may have had with doctors during his childhood. The fantasies acted out by this primitive murderer are similar to the fantasies experienced by people who have been surgically traumatized as children. The evidence suggests that the activities of Jack the Ripper resemble the acting-out of a horror story in which he, as the main character, played to the population of London as an actor plays to his audience, through the need to discharge anxiety and regain some kind of emotional balance. When his depredation failed to achieve the desired results for him, the Ripper probably commited suicide.

Int J Psychiatry Med. 1975;6(3):385-402

Hi Magpie

Thanks for this. I did actually come across this abstract some time ago since my main work is, as you may know, as a medical editor. It seems to me that the author is floating a theory but that it might not have been that way at all. We all agree that Jack may have experienced some trauma in his childhood, as do many or most serial killers. And yet of course a lot of people experience some trauma in childhood and grow up to be perfectly normal human beings. The theory the author puts forward is similar to Cornwell's theory about Walter Sickert's supposed genital fistula. And yet, this theory is all of a piece with the plethora of theories about what made Jack tick or about who he was. Too much guesswork, not enough solid facts to go on.

Chris

[Magpie]

Hi Magpie

Thanks for this. I did actually come across this abstract some time ago since my main work is, as you may know, as a medical editor. It seems to me that the author is floating a theory but that it might not have been that way at all. We all agree that Jack may have experienced some trauma in his childhood, as do many or most serial killers. And yet of course a lot of people experience some trauma in childhood and grow up to be perfectly normal human beings. The theory the author puts forward is similar to Cornwell's theory about Walter Sickert's supposed genital fistula. And yet, this theory is all of a piece with the plethora of theories about what made Jack tick or about who he was. Too much guesswork, not enough solid facts to go on.

Chris

Hi Chris.

Thanks. I'd seen it floating around on Medline for the last few years, but never gave it much thought. However since on of the recurring complaints people seem to have is the lack of "scientific" insight into the case, I thought I'd at least provide the abstract so if people want to, they can track it down.

The theory (at least according to the abstract) doesn't seem very substantial to me either, and I'm sure that it's out of date. But it does touch upon the idea that How and I have been talking about in the "Jack the Wannabe" thread--that perhaps Jack wanted (or even attempted) to be a doctor, but couldn't cut it. That seems like a related, but different, path that "doctor identification" could take--much like how the victims of bullies attempt to emulate or befriend those that bully them.

[Chris G.]

Hi Chris.

Thanks. I'd seen it floating around on Medline for the last few years, but never gave it much thought. However since on of the recurring complaints people seem to have is the lack of "scientific" insight into the case, I thought I'd at least provide the abstract so if people want to, they can track it down.

The theory (at least according to the abstract) doesn't seem very substantial to me either, and I'm sure that it's out of date. But it does touch upon the idea that How and I have been talking about in the "Jack the Wannabe" thread--that perhaps Jack wanted (or even attempted) to be a doctor, but couldn't cut it. That seems like a related, but different, path that "doctor identification" could take--much like how the victims of bullies attempt to emulate or befriend those that bully them.

Hi again Magpie

The abstract and the full paper are in the scientific - medical literature, granted, but that doesn't make the conclusion that the author reached scientific. Rather, it is the author's opinion, like so many other "theories" that are in the psychosocial realm.

All my best

Chris

[Magpie]

Hi again Magpie

The abstract and the full paper are in the scientific - medical literature, granted, but that doesn't make the conclusion that the author reached scientific. Rather, it is the author's opinion, like so many other "theories" that are in the psychosocial realm.

All my best

Chris

I'll buy that Chris:)

After all, one of the worst Ripper books ever was written by a practising Psychiatrist supposedly using psychiatric methodology. :o