Making his bones

[Magpie]

A new thread for discussing the possibility that Jack's crimes were the result of a gang initiation or similar occurrence

[Robert Linford]

Hi Magpie

Could you expand? Tough gang if you have to be initiated several times!
And why no other series of crimes (or initiations)?

Robert

[Chris G.]

A new thread for discussing the possibility that Jack's crimes were the result of a gang initiation or similar occurrence

Hi Magpie

I don't know so much about gang initiation although there could be room for the idea that gang activity of some type could have been involved in the murders. Of course if there was more than one murderer, that opens up the possibility that the truth would come out, and a lone individual, the classic serial killer seems more likely. But who knows--

There is a new book out about the "High Rip" gang of Liverpool and other gangs in that English northwest port. Michael Macilwee in The Gangs of Liverpool writes about the various violent activities of "The Rippers" (http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_objectid=17408689%26method=full%26siteid=50061-name_page.html) of Liverpool so we have to wonder if there is some sort of connection to such a gang, or whether at least the name "Jack the Ripper" came from the High Rips or Rippers of Liverpool or a similar gang in London who chose to emulate the Scouse variety. You may know that George R. Sims (Dagonet) wrote (http://casebook.org/press_reports/dagonet.html) on 9 September 1888: "In the Whitechapel cases the theory is that there is either a maniac at the bottom of them, or that they are the work of a 'High Rip' gang. That theory should be followed up until it is proved to be a false one."

Chris

[admin tim]

Well, this is probably my fault from what I had posted earlier on one of the other threads in this subforum.

It is conceivable that the Whitechapel Murders were nothing more than an initiation rite of some kind. Or, rather than an initiation rite, maybe a series of qualifying events. Looking at 1920's - 1930's America, .when Murder, Inc. was formed by Lepke Buchalter and his associates, it seems that not just any criminal could join that elite group; you first had to prove yourself adept at the intended business of murder. With the Mafia and other organized crime societies being in existence in 1888, is it possible that, like Murder Inc., a prospective member of one of these organizations was given a unique chance to prove himself worthy of membership? We see this today on a smaller scale, as numerous of the street gangs around the country require that a prospective member be 'blooded' before he may join, preferably by the killing of a member of some rival gang.

This is not the likeliest of explanations but it is difficult to eliminate it from consideration with the evidence we have at hand. Few have ever pursued this theory, which may be why the Whitechapel Murders remain unsolved. When told how ridiculous such a theory is, typically by the 'black magic ritual' crowd, I always reread Conan Doyle's The Yellow Face for reinforcement. Who would have ever thought THAT story would turn out as it did? - old Sherlock sure didn't. Thanks again, Conan Doyle. Norbury!

Anyway, such a scenario would certainly explain a lot - such as why the murders stopped so suddenly, and why the mutilations, the latter being to prove a strong stomach and also to provide unimpeachable proof of the deed's executor. Also, the 'Code of Silence' would prevent anyone in the know from ever spilling the truth. Some may scoff, but these discussion points are as strong as any in the game.

Anyway, that is what was meant or intended. Opinions and counterarguments welcomed.

[Robert Linford]

Hi Tim

I would have thought that if a murder was required, the gang would ask for someone "important" to be killed e.g. a member of a rival gang. They'd need no proof that the murder had been committed - it would be all over the underworld grapevine.

The only reason I can see for a gang targeting prostitutes and killing them in this exaggerated way, would be to send the other prostitutes a message along the lines of "This is what happens if you cheat us (your pimps)". But we don't seem to hear a whisper of this from the prostitutes of 1888.

Robert

[Suzi]

Hi Magpie-
Go for it are you starting from the Emma Smith premise?

Suzi

[How Brown]

Thanks for starting this thread up Magpie...seriously.

This isn't inconcievable,in my opinion.

The main problem ( just my opinion) is that everyone in on the "initiation" would have had to keep mum forever about it....or at least for the last 118 years:rolleyes:

Even though possible....to keep something of this magnitude secret for that long...among more than 2 or 3...probably more...is a real stretch.

But keep the thread going....it is a good idea. Nice thinking.

[admin tim]

Howard:

How many people do you think know what really happened to Jimmy Hoffa? Q.E.D.

Omerta is a binding code; don't underestimate its power.

[How Brown]

Tim:

Omerta isn't what it used to be....but in the case of Hoffa,maybe 100.

Good point Tim and well taken.

[admin tim]

Judge Crater. He disappeared over 70 years ago, with nary a clue as to what actually happened. Undoubtedly, he went the route that Hoffa was to take years later, and numerous people must have known about it at the time. But it's still a secret decades later.

[How Brown]

Timmers:

I beg to differ on one thing old man...

Judge Crater MAY have decided to leave this mortal coil on his own volition. Hoffa wouldn't have. Crater may have absconded with a lot of cash ....a new honey....with a new identity to a new hacienda.

But still.....you make a good point.

[Magpie]

Hi everyone!

I should make it clear that it was Tim who came up the the idea that the killings might be gang related--I just thought it was an interesting enough idea to warrant a new thread.

I don't think the murders were gang-related. How and I had a fascinating discussion about the possibility that the criminal underworld would have been sufficiently concerned about the effects of the Ripper killings that they may have tracked down and rubbed out the Ripper themselves.

If the Ripper was thinking that he could impress the underworld or use the killings for leverage, he was badly mistaken. He was a wildcard that would have made the Element very, very nervous.

I do find it interesting that in the aftermath of Emma Smith's death, there were a lot of stories about the gang's of Whitechapel, and the assumption was that gang activity was rampant. However once the Ripper killings started, it was like the gangs disappeared. It can't just be that the Press had other concerns--I think it's more likely that the increased police presence and an increase in the locals willingness to talk to the police forced the gangs to go dormant.

It wouldn't surprise me if the police continued to keep the Ripper case alive after they were sure the murders had stopped precisely to take advantage of the quieter gang presence in the area :)

[How Brown]

Just in case anyone is unfamiliar with the film "M" by Fritz Lang ( 1931 ).....the premise is that since the police....(in this case,the inept and bumbling Berlin polzei ) cannot locate the child molester/murderer....portrayed to the nth degree by the great Hungarian Jewish actor Laszlo Lowenstein ( a.k.a., Peter Lorre )....that the underworld must capture the killer.

It interfered with the day to day machinations of the Berlin criminal underworld to the point that money wasn't coming in like it used to.....so they wind up attempting to apprehend him and do !

[admin tim]

..regarding the judge.

From http://www.prairieghosts.com/crater.html


In the summer of 1930, Judge Crater and his wife were vacationing at their summer cabin at Belgrade Lakes, Maine. In late July, he received a telephone call and he offered no information to his wife about the content of the call, other than to say that he had to return to the city “to straighten those fellows out.” The following day, he arrived at his Fifth Avenue apartment but instead of dealing with business, he made a trip to Atlantic City in the company of a showgirl instead. On August 3, he was back in New York and on the morning of August 6, he spent two hours going through his files in his courthouse chambers. He then had his assistant, Joseph Mara, cash two checks for him that amounted to $5,150. At noon, he and Mara carried two locked briefcases to his apartment and he let Mara take the rest of the day off.
Judge Crater (UPI)
Later that evening, Crater went to a Broadway ticket agency and purchased one seat for a comedy that was playing that night called Dancing Partners at the Belasco Theater. He then went to Billy Haas’ chophouse on West 45th Street for dinner. Here, he ran into two friends, a fellow attorney and his showgirl date, and he joined them for dinner. The lawyer later told investigators that Crater was in a good mood that evening and gave no indication that anything was bothering him. The dinner ended a little after 9:00 (a short time after the curtain had opened for the show that Crater had a ticket for) and the small group went outside. As mentioned already, Crater waved goodbye to his friends and then entered a cruising taxi that he hailed down. His next, and likely final location, remains a mystery.


Sorry. Howard, but it sure looks to me like he is sleeping with the fishes.

[Magpie]

It interfered with the day to day machinations of the Berlin criminal underworld to the point that money wasn't coming in like it used to.....so they wind up attempting to apprehend him and do !


Exactly:)

Plus the populace was expecting more from the police, meaning blind eyes could no longer be turned for the sake of a quiet life.

btw, awesome movie

[admin tim]

Well, you have listed some compelling reasons against this theory. The movie 'M' is a good example, and the same kind of thing happened in the 1930's in the Chicago area, I believe, when a young newsboy hawking newspapers was gunned down by a stickup artist during a robbery. The public outcry was so great that other criminals tipped the police as to where the perpetrator could be found.

However, this was organized crime. Street gangs think differently and they could well have been in complete contempt of public opinion and police crackdowns, if gang activity today is any guide. Or maybe it was just a miscalculation on their part - who knew the deaths of five useless whores, in an area where half of the children born died before they were five, could arouse such sentiments?

This theory is not being seriously proposed, but there is really no reason that something of the sort could not have happened. That is to say, it has no immediately fatal flaws that I can see.

But what do you think about the concept of the Ripper as a hired hit-man, one who then couldn't have cared less about public outcry or police reaction?

[Stephen Leece]

Magpie have you been watching M? Sounds like the plotline to that- serial killer (based on Kurten gets rubbed out by the underworld after a showtrial in front of a kangaroo court comprising of criminals).

Regards

Stephen

[How Brown]

Tim:

Any suggestions as to whom the hits were carried out for?

Where the hell is Russo when you need him.....:mob:

[Magpie]

Magpie have you been watching M? Sounds like the plotline to that- serial killer (based on Kurten gets rubbed out by the underworld after a showtrial in front of a kangaroo court comprising of criminals).

Regards

Stephen

Havent' seen M since my film school days. Loved it though.

[Magpie]

But what do you think about the concept of the Ripper as a hired hit-man, one who then couldn't have cared less about public outcry or police reaction?

Hmmm...not impossible, but two roadblocks.

1) The mutilations were not the mark of a dispassionate professional.

2) Who would pay to have those particular victims wiped out, and why?

[admin tim]

Hmmm.. I just now realized that some of this forum didn't recover from the reload and will have to be restored. The part I want is the discussion on 'Profit' as a motive.

The concept of a hitman is discussed therein. As I recall, there were several scenarios that should answer your question. An example follows:

Imagine a distraught father whose only son and heir has been ravaged by a social disease contracted from a cheap east end whore. He then engages a murder-for-hire and instructs him to make the murders as bloody and horrifying as possible ("use yer imagination") to serve as a warning to others of their kind. This all stops when old Dad runs out of money after November 9.

The end justifies the means. Look in the Social Reformer subforum; an excerpt follows:

The concept of a social reformer exposing the deplorable conditions in London¡¦s East End by committing the Whitechapel Murders, knowing that they would focus the world¡¦s attention on that area, is an old one and has been addressed by authors as diverse as Donald Rumbelow, Donald McCormick, and Harlan Ellison. To be able to clean up the slums of one of Earth¡¦s major cities single-handedly, by the mere blood sacrifice of a few of society¡¦s castoffs, would have truly been a liberal¡¦s dream and could have actually been attempted as an early experiment in ¡¥social engineering¡¦:

¡§There are many aspects in these crimes that support the idea of "Jack the Reformer". I can't forget the following verse (from the book "The Identity of Jack the Ripper" by Donald McCormick):¡¨

"I've no time to tell you how
I came to be a killer.
But you should know, as time will show,
That I'm society's pillar."

Naturally, someone of this persuasion would worry about the ¡¥negative¡¦ ramifications of the murders about as much as one of the Tsar¡¦s Cossacks would worry about which peasant owned the cabbage patch through which he was galloping. If the government actually fell due to the Ripper¡¦s actions, and it very nearly did, then so much the better ¡V ¡¥it was too conservative anyway¡¦. And if the murder and gross mutilation of three or four useless old whores did not produce the desired result, well, then, maybe the total and outrageous destruction of a young and pretty one would.


I'll have to dig out my old article 'Murder Most Foul' which discusses this kind of thing (murder, mutilation, posing) in some detail. That article is the source for these 32 motives and reasons that are in this forum. But I need to have a look and see what else may be missing and then restore the missing sections. Thanks for bringing this up.

[Magpie]

Imagine a distraught father whose only son and heir has been ravaged by a social disease contracted from a cheap east end whore. He then engages a murder-for-hire and instructs him to make the murders as bloody and horrifying as possible ("use yer imagination") to serve as a warning to others of their kind. This all stops when old Dad runs out of money after November 9.


Sounds like the Infamous Dr Stanley :)

It's a good idea. I do have a couple of reservations.

1). The length of time between the murders.

If someone was bankrolling this campaign, one would expect a higher body count in a shorter time--at the least a murder a week, if every couple of days. The cooling off period in October was also counterproductive, as it interrupted the momentum.

2) The "running out of money" angle. I would assume that you hypothetical father was at least comfortably off. I can't imagine that the entire Whitechapel campaign would have cost more that a couple of pounds--if that.

However I think you are on to an interesting line of enquiry there--I'd be interested in seeing where you take it.

[admin tim]

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=667#post667