Jack The Soldier ???

[Night Stalker]

To all the experts who shake their heads at my following comments, please hear me out, before passing judgement.

As an ex-member of the British army, it always struck me that a soldier could quite easily be JTR.

Here are some of my points :-

1. All soldiers looked the same in their marching out dress.

2. The red tunic was designed to hide blood in battle.

3. soldiers form a brotherhood, even the nastier of incursions are kept in-house.

4. Soldiers, when in a garrision town look down on the locals and do as they please.

5. A battle hardened soldier fueled with alcohol and rage could quite easily comit murder.

6. The suspect could have been killed in battle or even posted over seas, which led to the sudden end to the murders

I know my points are very vague and amateurish, but any guidence from my enlightened experts are welcome.

I will give you a quick true example of my theory :-

In the late 80,s I was serving in a garrison town in North Yorkshire. A young woman was murdered and eventually a soldier was found guilty of the murder.
Even though the soldiers uniform was covered in mud and blood, murdered her on camp and believe it or not, was on guard at the time. He was only implicated when it became apparent that they were seeing each other on and of. To say that a friend or unit members didn't know that he committed murder before it came to light would be an under-statement.

[How Brown]

Hey NS !

Let me ask you a question...

Did the Tabram murder and the mention of a possible bayonet being used for the fatal 39th wound inspire you here ?

No special reason buddy....just a question.

Thanks

[Night Stalker]

Hey How :

To answer your question, no, I always thought on the grounds of C5. The first book I read on JTR, was - Jack The Ripper, Summing Up And Verdict by Colin Wilson & Robin Odell. There was no mention of Martha Tabram.

But I am intrigued by the 2 man theory. The corporal orders the private to be his look out, be it free will or under protest. The corporal can always make the privates' life hell by bullying or by peer pressure, in other words he has him by the balls no matter what the outcome.

As for the bayonet, it's a soldiers tool always carried in those days. The perfect killing weapon.

To answer another question Ive read on the forums, about Tabram. The silent killing, soldiers are taught to make as much noise in battle. But soldiers are also taught to kill silently when taking out enemy sentries or laying an ambush.

NS

[Grey Hunter]

No mention of Martha Tabram in Wilson and Odells' Summing Up and Verdict???! There most certainly is.

[Night Stalker]

Grey Hunter :

My most unresrved apologies for my gaff and previous false statement. I also apologies to msr's Wilson & Odell for getting it wrong.:bowdown:

But, may I say, I joined this forum to research and learn a lot more about JTR. I warmly welcome all helping hands from my most esteemed and expert fellow members. But, I do not appreciate, a negative thread from you, as if I were some naughty dog !!!!!!!!

Sir, you will find a friendly word goes a long, long way.

Night Stalker.

[Shawn-a]

Jack the Lousy Soldier might be a more apt title for the thread (at least to get Donstonians interested, considering Roslyn's limited war record)....not to mention that the warrior-related subject, the Holy Grail, de rigeur of late [coincidentally (?) said to be in Roslin Chapel] can't in reality be the lost feminine or sacred goddess, unless you want to believe knights and nazis were looking for their femininity....:offinhead: Eh, Night Stalker?
An inactive or a former soldier is still a soldier. They can switch it on when they want....
Just don't try bringing out the bayonette on me....

[Night Stalker]

You can't always take a soldier at first glance.

From my own experiences, it's the quiet unasuming men or the "soft lads", who are the first to step up.

Yes, an inactive or former soldier, still remains a soldier to the day he dies.Training will always become second nature, and will kick in at a moments notice when that "switch" is turned .

Don't worry Shawna, the Bayonet, is safely packed away.......:rolleyes:

[Shawn-a]

In countries without mandatory military service, you can always try to spot military. I do that at work. Sometimes I get it wrong.
Military, or equivalent, is an obvious possibility, even probability. The methods may be "nicht gute militarische" but the victim is certainly a fair substitute for a soldier's natural prey....And they're sitting ducks just like you want them....

From my own experiences, it's the quiet unasuming men or the "soft lads", who are the first to step up.


Shhhh....Shucks, now I can't say the members from countries with mandatory service are sissies for not immediately enlisting in your military post....
And now everyone knows Howard is a "soft lad". Ha ha!

[Night Stalker]

Hey Shawna -

My ex-wife was German, and had the strange ability to be able to identify soldiers in civvies, weird eh ?

So, are you saying that JTR, was in all probability a soldier or just in Tabrams' murder ?

[Shawn-a]

You're ex-wife should try her talent at spotting soldiers in a city like Halifax, one of the top 3 military cities in Canada, historically, equivalent to Howard's Philadelphia. Like inactive soldiers, inactive military towns maintain a subtle martial ambience absorbed by civilians. I blew the call on a co-worker from Halifax....
Quebec City is another one and Dr. Thomas Neill Cream emigrated at 5 to a town just down the river, Wolfe's Cove, only the place where General James Wolfe conquered New France and made Britain master of the world....
Jack the Soldier is absolutely right if, by it you admit to the possibility that it could be Jack the Soldier or Equivalent....

[Night Stalker]

Hey Shawna :

By Equivilant, do you mean army surgeon or medic. This could explain the two weapons used on Tabram, one being a bayonet the other a surgical knife, maybe ?

Grey Hunter, quite rightly pointed out that my previous statement was false. This was when I said there was no mention of Tabram in Wilson & Odell's - Summing Up and Verdict. This irked me for the simple reason that I always referred to Tabram as Turner. So once again Grey hunter, I apologise, Ive given myself a good slap and Im back with the programme.

Does anyone else get mixed up with, "aka or also known as" ?:offinhead:

Presently on another planet, NS -

[Shawn-a]

Sir yes sir, army surgeons and medics would be included as Equivalent, along with children or wards of soldiers (Batman and Robin sort of thing), and on and on....It helps if the parents or guardians are hardened soldiers and the medics go through hell....
"Equivalents" would have to go through the same hell in the end but in a longer period with more seasoning. They generally take longer and need more combination of factors to help them along (surviving illness, trauma, rough neighbourhood, even Occult practices)....You can't just have a drill-sergeant-of-a-boxing-manager make you chase chickens in an empty lot in Philadelphia, then expect to join the Cacciatori degli Alpi!....Seasoning is required and I'm not talking oregano....

[Night Stalker]

I hear you.....with your Rocky reference.

I always believed as a child that JTR, was a quiet unasuming boy who was bullied, like The Yorkshire Ripper - Sutcliffe. He would often, not go to school for weeks on end for fear of bullies.

After years of physical and mental abuse it's obvious that the person is going to explode in a fit of rage. In Sutcliffe's case, he went with a prostitute, but was impotent. He gave her £10 and expected £5 change back, but never got it. Weeks later Sutcliffe saw the prostitute in a crowded pub and asked for his £5 back. She ridiculed him in front of the whole pub, then everyone in the pub laughed at him. This was when Sutliffe snapped and would begin to attack then murder prostitutes.

[Shawn-a]

Marcello Palma, who lived not too far from me and went to school with a co-worker, exploded in a fit of rage and killed three prostitutes in one night, the night of Victoria Day in 1996. I knew one of the victims.
Reports suggested he picked Victoria Day so he could hide the sound of the gunfire with the fireworks, thus making him sound like a cool customer....equivalent to a soldier....Not quite....He went to the scene in his distinctive red truck....And doing 3 in one night was sure to draw attention....
Sutcliffe on the other hand was one cool customer....Working in a cemetery may have helped....

[Sam Flynn]

Hi all,

I, amongst others, have speculated that perhaps there's a connection between the Zulu custom of disembowelling those that they killed and JTR's signature behaviour. Eduardo Zinna has a dissertation over on Casebook, and Bob Hinton has mused on the same subject in his writings. I would be extremely surprised if one or two British soldiers witnessing such apparent "barbarity" (which, of course, it wasn't from a Zulu perspective) hadn't suffered some psychological trauma as a result.

I've often wondered if any research has been done to trace mentally-disturbed (ex-)soldiers who had served in the "Zulu War". The Brits gradually withdrew from Natal from about 1882 onwards, and it'd be intriguing to know whether any of those who served there landed up broke and broken in the East End a few years later.

[Night Stalker]

Hey Sam :

When I had just turned 18, I was serving in Belize. I witnessed a road accident, in which 6 Gurkha soldiers were killed. Before the bodies were removed, other Gurkhas came along and slit open the chest's of their dead comrades. this was to supposedly to release their spirits. As a witness to this, it did leave a lasting affect on me.

I have also read stories, on the lives of the Victoria Cross recipients of Rorkes Drift. One such soldier, did go back to London. He lived in such poverty that he had to sell his medal. He used to run around in his garden screaming that he was being chased by Zulus. Unfortunately suffering mental illness, he committed suicide.

NS -

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks for that info, NS -

That Rorke's Drift veteran was probably Private Robert Jones, who was tortured by nightmares for years after the battle. I daresay he was not the only one, though.

As an interesting aside, one of the more prominent rankers in the film, Pte Fred Hitch, later became a London cab-driver and was presented with his VC in Netley Hospital. Who'da thunk it?

[Night Stalker]

Hey Sam,

As an interesting aside, one of the more prominent rankers in the film, Pte Fred Hitch, later became a London cab-driver and was presented with his VC in Netley Hospital. Who'da thunk it?[/QUOTE]


Netley, of all places, eh ?

Another thing to remember, the British Army still don't officially recognise, post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). So imagine how the soldiers of the Victorian era suffering PTSD, dealt with it. I could imagine how a soldier, fueled on alcohol would behave, then with a traumatic experience remembered. He could quite easily explode into a blind rage.

[Sam Flynn]

Just out of interest, I've been trawling through the census returns for the Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum, Bow, for 1891. Out of some 350 "lunatics" I counted precisely 195 who were listed as "soldiers", the majority of whom seemed to have been in their 30s and 40s. It seems that, for this East End asylum at least, ex-soldiers formed a significant percentage of the population.

[Shawn-a]

Netley, of all places, eh ?
???
Netley came up in my Donston searches as the home of the Army Medical School from 1863-1902....as a By The Way....
I only have one problem with the "snapping" or the "insane" theory: those types of people have a hard time getting away with much....
Palma did snap, not enough to kill his girlfriend (who triggered the incident) or his wife though--he sought substitute victims who, in contrast to rumours, were strangers to him--but enough to look more like a rampage killer and guarantee capture....

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Shawna,

I tend to agree that the archetypal "dribbling lunatic" or "axe-wielding maniac" aren't the types we should be looking for, however "lunacy" was a diagnosis that was liberally dispensed back in those days. It's a fair bet that, of the 195 ex-soldiers listed at the Bow Asylum, relatively few would have been of the "snapping" variety. Chances are that most of them were suffering from depression and various forms of schizophrenia, simply because those have been the most prevalent forms of mental illness since the dawn of man, even if people didn't have names for those conditions the time.

[Shawn-a]

Your Bow Asylum scenario sounds good, Sam (as long as there's a Nurse Ratchet thrown in)....helped in no small part by the fact that the soldiers are no longer serving. Jack the soldier is now Jack the discharged soldier, permanently out of action for whatever reason.
Active soldiers might kill one out of rage but not a series. They're still soldiers and there were still plenty of theatres for killing. All they have to do is wait to get shipped off to a campaign. They don't have to start one at home....

[Magpie]

Just out of interest, I've been trawling through the census returns for the Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum, Bow, for 1891. Out of some 350 "lunatics" I counted precisely 195 who were listed as "soldiers", the majority of whom seemed to have been in their 30s and 40s. It seems that, for this East End asylum at least, ex-soldiers formed a significant percentage of the population.

Hi Sam.

Keep in mind that Soldiers lifestyles and enviroment meant that a very great number of them ended up with syphilis, which we all know can cause victims to go mad in it's later stages. That might explain a portion of those numbers.

Shell-shock, poor nutrition, lead poisoning may also have led to symptoms that to a doctor in the LVP indicated some kind of madness and was treated as such.

[Night Stalker]

Hey Folks ;

Another example of the killer-soldier, is Richard Speck.
In Chicago in 1966, the alcoholic, ex-marine killed 8 nurses in a drunken night out. He regulary went with prostitutes and held them with contempt, the only woman he respected was his mother. He was convinced his wife was a slut and would physicaly and mentally abuse her.

Another interesting fact, refers to what Magpie was saying earlier. The suppossedly, elite Cavalry that Custer, led at the battle of Little Big Horn.
These young men were very under-nourished. Suffering from mental and Physical injuries. In any other conflict these young men would not have been accepted for military service.

[How Brown]

Keep in mind that Soldiers lifestyles and enviroment meant that a very great number of them ended up with syphilis....

In the "Definitive" by Mr. Begg...on page 107.....fully 1/3rd of all sick cases made by soldiers where from venereal diseases.

[Night Stalker]

Hey How :

With reference to venereal diseases. It is still a big problem in todays army, and within the last 15 years or so HIV, has reared its ugly head. It's a matter of fact, where ever you have fighting men the prostitutes are sure to follow.

I read a very interesting copy of a British soldiers diary. He was serving with Sir William Howe , when he entered Philadephia in 1777. There are several accounts of soldiers, who prostituted their wives or concubines out to other soldiers to keep them in grog.

[Shawn-a]

Howe's army of about 18000 wintered quite confortably in chilly Philly in '77, after capturing a couple of forts and solidifying their supply line. Major party town, "wives, prostitutes and sutlers", the latter who would have supplied the booze. The Quakers were quaking in their boots.
Washington was stuck in Valley Forge, soldiers crying, "Where's the beef?!" So much for the Declaration of Independence. Howe captured New York in '76 and the British still held it.

There's a letter for sale on-line ($5000-7500) from a British Officer with Howe in the Invasion of New York (1776) to John Maitland, the Earl of Lauderdale, regarding Highlanders in charge of transports being captured because of lack of protection. They were taken to Rhode Island and marched to a jail accompanied by the Rogues March, which is traditionally played while escorting prostitutes out of town.
This "impertinence" demonstrates how a soldier will equate his enemy with prostitutes....Or prostitutes with his enemy....
But I agree, just having them around would switch and/or concentrate your focus and, as with any killer, that also means possible target....

[Night Stalker]

Hey Shawna :

Wine, women and song.... who could ask for anything more !!!

The rank and file, were always treated as the lowest of the low, so having prostitutes in tow.... need I say more.

[Shawn-a]

Hey How :There are several accounts of soldiers, who prostituted their wives or concubines out to other soldiers to keep them in grog.
General William Howe enjoyed himself a little too much in Philly (took up with the wife of a prison contracter and he didn't even mind). Howe was replaced by Clinton.

Wine, women and song....? Wooopie!....
The next time Howe's army sans Howe met Washington, they lost. (Battle of Monmouth, 1878.) Did you even win one battle after that?
The contrast with Washington's six month encampment at Valley Forge sounds very interesting....They say Valley Forge changed the tide of the war....and it was just an encampment....

[Night Stalker]

Hey Shawna :

The battle of Monmouth (28th June 1778). The outcome was actually indecisive, with each side loosing approximately 350 men. In Clinton's favour, he was still able to resume his withdrawal to New York in good order.

Thanks, NS -

[Shawn-a]

You mean Mickey from Mickey's Gym in Philadelphia was lying when he said, "Women weaken legs!"?

Benjamin Franklin has a famous quote when asked whether Howe got Philadelphia. He said,
"No, Philadelphia got Howe!"
Or is it How!

[Night Stalker]

You mean Mickey from Mickey's Gym in Philadelphia was lying when he said, "Women weaken legs!"?

Depends how much the lady weighs, I'd say. :thumbsupbud:

[Bill]

I think the Ripper being a soldier is quite possible – and certainly a lot more plausible than many other popular theories.

If it was a soldier, the supposed army pensioner ‘Indian Harry’ Bowyer, must surely be a prime suspect. Certainly his actions seem a little suspicious. To begin with he discovers the body – and I believe it is a generally held view that the perpetrator of a crime is often the person who first reports it. His claim to have immediately recognised two mounds of flesh on a table, (approx eight feet away, and in a room with no other light source than the small amount he was able to move the curtain through the broken window) sounds a little dubious (there was a second window, but this must surely have been curtained as well, otherwise why bother poking about through the broken one).
And on top of that, he then claims in a report to a newspaper that he saw Mary with a man who not only bears many of the features already mentioned in the press – but is also the very opposite of himself.

Hmmm, I think we’d better have him in again, if you please, sergeant.

All the best
Bill

[Night Stalker]

Hey Bill :

Thanks for the info. I never knew Bowyer, had a military background. You do learn something new every day, eh ? :thumbsupbud:

You have got my curiosity juices flowing.:eek:

Thanks again mate, NS-