Dr. T as a Suspect

[WTM]

The following is from the Casebook: Jack the Ripper site, recently posted by a pie-eyed neophyte:

"If you think about it, Tumblety is the closest to the Ripper than any other suspect. So many things lead to him. He is one of the few suspects who was actually being "watched" by the police.
I'm just amazed at how he is not a top suspect.

All the things against him can be knocked down."

While D'Onston appears to be out in front here, according to our suspect poll, Tumblety and Maybrick continue to have their dedicated followings. I read through "America's First Serial Killer" (patently UNTRUE even if by some miracle Tumblety were to be proven to have been JTR) and was underwhelmed. Tumblety is really a sentimental favorite, IMHO, because of Stewart Evans' place in ripperology. There is just no good evidence against him and, in spite of our cousin's statement above, there really are some serious flaws in his candidacy.

Anyone else have an opinion here? I remember making some people angry in the old chat room because I had said that Tumblety was a weak suspect. They took it as a personal attack against Stewart Evans, which it certainly was not. Considering ALL of the known evidence, I really fail to see how D'Onston cannot end at the top of the heap. Sure, Tumblety was a pervert, and may have hated fallen women, but he really had no known history of comparable violence and seems to me to have been a bit of a cowardly lion when it came to this kind of thing. Was he the man who did Annie Chapman in that backyard, under hair-raising risk conditions? Not from where I sit, he wasn't.

[How Brown]

"He is actually one of the few suspects watched by the police". from the post below. I admit to have had him ranked high on my list for two reasons. One, the organ removal,which means far more than what many laymen and some Ripperologists tend to emphasize.....The second was my reactionary position to the anti-Tumblety set that says a gay person would not commit such a crime. One of the reasons I personally drew back from Dr.T as the most viable suspect,was his ostentatiousness. Man,this guy was EVERYWHERE ! Either being discussed or rambling on about his own bad self.Not that that being a showoff eliminates anyone.

[Monty]

Hi Guys,

Apparently Dr T was 6'4".

The fence in the yard of 29 Hanbury st was roughly 5'6".

And Cadoche still didnt see anything ??

[How Brown]

Monty.....Thanks for pointing that out about Tumblety's height vis a vis the fence on Hanbury. Likewise, about the illogic of searching for organs so brazenly. I am guilty,individually,for overlooking details such as these two. Thats why I am sending over a '57 Chevy,my expense,to each of you for Christmas. Any color preference?

[D1g1TaL Gh0sT]

Originally posted by Howard Brown
"He is actually one of the few suspects watched by the police". from the post below. I admit to have had him ranked high on my list for two reasons. One, the organ removal,which means far more than what many laymen and some Ripperologists tend to emphasize.....The second was my reactionary position to the anti-Tumblety set that says a gay person would not commit such a crime. One of the reasons I personally drew back from Dr.T as the most viable suspect,was his ostentatiousness. Man,this guy was EVERYWHERE ! Either being discussed or rambling on about his own bad self.Not that that being a showoff eliminates anyone.

Each to his own, I say. Just because someone wouldn't view him as their idea of "suspect no. 1", doesn't make it a personal attack on someone who does.

[How Brown]

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=moa&cc=moa&sid=95e3f6e828e116b80d4cccd93c806bc1&view=text&rgn=main&idno=ADH4174.0001.001 This is an article that Chris Scott found back in October. It is a pretty long piece....Enjoy !

[D1g1TaL Gh0sT]

Thanks for the link, Howard!

[Garry]

It's my opinion that the real reason the police were watching Tumblety and also followed him about is because he was under suspicion of having Fenian ties.

If you look into what was happening at the time with the 'Irish problem' (in itself mainly under pay from the british Govt itself), a lot was being done in secret to root out anyone connected to the Fenian movement in America (not under Govt pay) and the bringing of dynamite into this country. Most people who came here from America were checked out in depth.

Isn't the Whitechapel murders a great cover for something else?

I also believe that interest in him died out when it was made clear that he never had any ties to the Clan-Na-Gael or the Fenian Brotherhood...or any other Irish-American sect.

[WTM]

A very good postulation, Garry, that these murders might have just been a cover for some other activity. That could also explain the horrific mutilations.

[How Brown]

Garry.....Thanks likewise for that post. Good to see you back,my man !!!

[Garry]

Howard: It's good to be back. :)

WTM: I've looked at that page and it's quite interesting but my main point here was that the police used their 'shadowing' of Tumblety and the Whitechapel murders as cover for what they were really following him for.

I've spent ages now looking into everything that was going on around the times of the murders (and before) and it's sent me to allsorts of amazing things.

The Fenian rising that first started on British soil properly with the dynamite explosion at Clerkenwell House of Detention in 1867 got me looking into that side of it all...I came across names we're all familiar with, Anderson, Monro, Warren, Macnaghten and Littlechild. I also found out that the police weren't quite the bumbling outfit we'd thought them to be. The way they carried out their 'secret' activities was pretty good for those days - albeit a lot of people were in Govt pay and fed them info from the US, France and allsorts of places.

Andersons first day in office co-incided with the Polly Nichols murder. He was also writing a column for 'The Times' newspaper under a anon name (egotist definitely)
During October 1888 a special commission court was set up to look into a Fenian conspiracy that involved the Govt in ways you wouldn't have imagined. A 'ceasefire' had already been put in place, there'd be no more dynamite explosions for a while.

Every visitor from the US in that timeframe was looked at very carefully...not because of any thoughts of them being involved with the murders but to see if they had any ties to the Fenian movement. You say you're interested in them due to the murders so as not to blow the cover for the real reason, if the press get wind of it - which they always did.

I haven't found any mention of Tumblety being followed because of the Fenian thing but it makes sense that this was the only reason when you look at his past etc and also what was going on.

Another thing that took me by surprise early on was that a 'calling card' of the Fenians involved a triangle - they also had funny little rituals similar to the Freemasons.

I started to get a bit stuck in the research when I was told about a book that had been released called 'Fenian Fire' by Christy Campbell, it's full title is 'Fenian Fire - The British Government plot to assassinate Queen Victoria'. I found a lot of the stuff I'd been looking at plus it filled in a lot of gaps and is a good read that I recommend to everyone.

It also mentions Martin Fido and Paul Beggs tracking down Monros' memoirs in Edinburgh with curiously little about the Whitechapel murders contained in them.

Add to that the Russian anarchists and threats of war here, there and everywhere and it makes you feel the pure chaos that must've reigned at that time...then the murders happen.

The public stopped thinking about the prospect of war and the threat of the Irish-Americans with their dynamite and they became more vigilant and took more notice of outsiders in their locality.

Maybe the 'From Hell' letter with its 'Irishness' (Sor) was an attempt to put more blame on the Irish for the murders too? Or maybe there was an Irish link in there somewhere?

It's left me again with more questions than answers.

[Garry]

It'd also interest me no end if the fab Mr Fido has still got a copy of the memoirs that I could have a peek at... I shall have to ask him when he returns to the boards :cool:

[D1g1TaL Gh0sT]

I remember a point Paul Gainey made about Tumblety when he first began researching him as a viable suspect to the Ripper slayings. He stated, he could hardly find anything about the man when trying to research him in England. BUT, when he came to the United States, information on the man was everywhere. Old newspaper articles listing him as a prime Ripper suspect, interviews done with Tumblety's associates and family. Essentially, the whole nine yards. The irony was not lost on Gainey, that so little could be known of Tumblety in England, yet so much could be known of him in North America (Canada included, as Tumblety spent time here as well in Hamilton, Ontario.). Gainy theorizes, that Scotland Yard, and the associated police agencies whom were all targeting Tumblety at the same time, for a variety of misdeeds non-related to the killings, purposely buried all infomation pretaining to him, when they suddenly realized that he had been a viable suspect all along, but they had inadvertantly let him slip through the cracks. "Think of the careers that would have been ruined....." Gainey pointed out. Which makes perfect sense, when you think about it. From a publicity standpoint, it would certainly have been better, for the police to have never known at all they had the Ripper in custody, then to have known they had him, and let him accidently slip away.

[How Brown]

Sahib.....I mean,Ghost: To expand upon your comments, it sounds logical.....as we say over here in North America( where you should get back to ! ), "Out of sight, out of mind.." The British cops took a normal cop-course of action ( ah...well most of them) to this revelation you mention. Thats a real good point,buddy. When factoring in the fact that this was not the Romanov family, JFK, or The Beatles that were murdered, it does seem logical and normal.

[cris2507]

This article is from the Bucks County Gazette of 20 December 1888 and carries a picture of Tumblety as he was in 1876 and an extraordinary sight it is! As I had not seen this before I thought I would post it
Chris

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/10524.jpg

[WTM]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Now tell me the various witnesses to the Whitechapel Murders would not have remembered that !

Excellent work, my good fellow, and it just goes to show that there is still material out there waiting to be found. But, as even Stewart Evans had not uncovered this before, it is a real surprise.

This is a human peacock who wanted to be seen and noticed. To me, this post just makes Tumblety's candidacy as the Ripper just that much more unlikely.

Top hats off to cris2507 for a really excellent find.

[Kevin Braun]

Chris,

Another "Holy cow", for a great find. I have the feeling that other pictures, sketches or photographs of this "human peacock" are out there somewhere, waiting to be found.

[How Brown]

I don't get tired of saying it....great find amigo !

The caricature sort of looks like a cross between Tony Iommi,the guitarist for Black Sabbath and Vlad The Impaler.

One thing though....Is this "Bucks County Gazette" an English periodical or does it refer to a county 30 miles from me,Bucks County, Pa. ?

If Tumblety looked like this in 1876, he would have stood out like a sore thumb anywhere. Considering that he appears to have been a peacock,as Kevin said,I just wonder if he would continued to look like this in 1888. Hopefully he didn't for his sake. I can just imagine the reception he would have encountered from the rank and file East Ender to a guy prancing around like that....and it ain't a pretty sight.

[cris2507]

Hi Howard
thanks for the comments:-)
the info about this US paper is as follows:
The Bucks County Gazette newspaper was located in Bristol, Pennsylvania

Hope this helps
All the best
Chris

[How Brown]

Thanks Chris ! Bucks County is a pretty wealthy county "suburb" of Philadelphia....James Michener, the author,for one,lived there.

Bristol was until recently a pretty heavy biker and drug turf in an otherwise laid back area....

[D1g1TaL Gh0sT]

Man. Is that would he really looked like?

He looked like...what's the phrase I'm looking for?

"Metrosexual". Is a nice way of putting it.

[Joe Chetcuti]

I donated the Nov 23, 1888 Daily Examiner of San Francisco to the Casebook a couple of years ago. The 'Tumblety article' in that issue spoke of a guy named Fred H. Hart. That man was a newspaper writer and a former editor in the Reno, Nevada area. Hart became famous in the 19th century for his funny book The Sazerac Lying Club.

Tumblety supposedly attempted to recruit Hart in a scheme during the mid-1850's but Hart refused. In 1888, Hart recalled those events which had occurred over 30 years prior. Hart showed that he remembered Tumblety very well after all these years.

Now here is the part which I've always found to be ironic. In Hart's Sazerac book, he writes of a man who really seemed to mirror Tumblety's personality, speech, and physical description. I've always wondered if Hart was using Tumblety as a model for this character in The Sazerac Lying Club. It's actually pretty funny.

Hart tells of a character who was such a liar that he involuntarily got himself elected as the first President of the Sazerac Lying Club. Hart gave this liar the name George Washington Fibley. How appropriate! Well, this newly elected President was so outraged that he went storming into Hart's office to complain.

In his autobiography, Tumblety used the Shakespeare line from Othello "He who steals my purse steals trash..." Stephen Ryder once posted a Vancouver magazine article where Tumblety referred to his coins as "trash" before he threw them onto a Montreal street in the 1850's. So the quack was known for using this phrase. Well this George Washington Fibley character used that same Shakepeare line while protesting to Hart about being elected President of the liar's club. Fibley was tall, long legged, and he carried a walking cane just for show. Quite similar to Tumblety. Hart even drew a picture of Fibley in his Sazerac Lying Club book. Just click and scroll down to the drawing of Fibley. The "He who steals my purse..." line is captioned below Fibley's picture.

http://www.elmerfudd.us/dp/liars/the-sazerac-lying-club.htm

The book itself is entertaining. I figure it must have been a fictitious story, but it was truthful that Hart really was the editor of the Reveille newspaper in Austin, Nevada as the story suggested. I can't say for sure whether or not Hart developed the Fibley character from the man whom he remembered so well as a young Dr. Tumblety in the 1850's, but it's funny to read about the similarities.

[Just Curious]

Joseph,

Thank you for posting that; most entertaining. :thumbsupbud:

The likeness of the two illustrations is uncanny!

I love the phrase "He who steals my purse steals trash" ..... it could be my motto!

[jmenges]

Thanks Joe,

I've found other information on Fred Hart via the California Folklore Quarterly (1945, C. Grant Loomis) including some biographical material. He fancied himself a professional liar and teller of tall-tales. Quite a character in the Twain vain. A habitual writer of angry letters and editorials towards politicians.

It is speculated in an article I have that Fred Hart may have been the cousin of Bret Harte, who was Secretary of the United States Branch Mint at San Francisco until 1870, US Counsul to Germany in 1878 and then Glasgow, Scotland in 1880. Bret Harte resided in London, England in 1888.

I can send along my Hart info, or post it here, if there is interest.

JM

[How Brown]

Thanks very much Joltin' Joe and JMenges for the posts....:thumbsupbud: Interesting information on Dr.T.

This Tumbelty character is something else isn't he ?

By all means,JM...please share what you want at any time. Tumbelty is not only interesting in relation to the WM...but is somewhat of an amusing fellow in other ways.

Can't have too much amusement these days,buddy.











"He who steals my purse.... better hope I ain't in heels when he does or I'll give him such a slap !"
-How Brown

[jmenges]

Here is the beginning of an article on Fred Hart that has what was known of his biography in 1945. I hope it is readable. If so, I'll post three more from a continuation of this piece.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1159990/0-1-2.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1159990/0-1-3.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1159990/0-1-4.jpg

JM

[jmenges]

And this little bit more. From The California Folklore Quarterly Vol4 No3&4 Jul/Oct. 1945.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1159990/0-2.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1159990/0-3.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1159990/0-4.jpg

JM

[Joe Chetcuti]

That was terrific, JM. I've been to the Bancroft Library which was mentioned in that report. Here is a little something I've got on Fred Hart.

Many other writers and journalists later claimed an acquaintanceship with (Mark) Twain, including Fred Hart. Hart was a clerk in a Virginia City dry goods store and a volunteer fireman when Twain was on the Territorial Enterprise and was perhaps at least influenced by the great writer. In any case, Hart later wrote for and edited the Reese River Reveille in Austin, becoming famous for his tales of the Sazerac Lying Club. In October 1880, he began a stint as editor of the Territorial Enterprise. He relocated to California in 1881 to take a position on the San Francisco Daily Report. He also wrote for other papers, but his health deteriorated and he died of Bright's disease in 1897.

I'd still consider Hart as a possible reason why the Oct 6th NY World's interview of Colonel Hughes-Hallett made its way from San Francisco on Oct 7th to getting printed in the Reno Evening Gazette on Oct 8, 1888. Tomorrow I'll make a few observations about Hughes-Hallett on this thread.

Thanks for sharing all of that with us, JM.

[How Brown]

Quick in and out...Thanks very very much to both of you folks for this material:thumbsupbud:

[jmenges]

Hi Joe,

Glad you enjoyed those and could read them OK. Check your PM's at Casebook.

I agree with your view that there could have been a connection between HH's story and Fred Hart. You've said elsewhere on the old CB boards that Hart had written about the Whitechapel murders. Did you mean strictly his comments about Tumblety or do you know of a piece he could have written? I've looked through the press archives and come up empty.

Interestingly, there is a piece you have probably noticed by Eliza Putnam Heaton in the Reno Evening Gazette of December 5, 1888. Heaton was an author and journalist in the New England area, mostly writing out of Boston. One of her books is titled The Steerage: A Sham Immigrant's Voyage to New York in 1888 which is her personal, first-hand narrative of this mode of travel.

I've found no other newspapers on Casebook that contained the piece by Heaton as printed in the Reno Gazette and wonder if it was special to the paper.

Not to weave any more tangles into this web, but on a lighter note, one of Heaton's close contemporaries was the American/Canadian travel writer Walter Blackburn Harte. I've not been able to find out whether he was related to either Bret Harte or Fred Hart (he was much younger, b.1868), but his name, when found in an article relating to Heaton, nearly made me look under my chair for communists!

JM

[Joe Chetcuti]

I'm not familiar with Heaton's work but I'll check out that Reno article you mentioned, JM. My remark about Fred Hart's writing of the Whitechapel murders was in reference to his Nov 1888 words in the San Francisco Daily Report and the Daily Examiner of San Francisco. I don't know of any other times he spoke of the murders.

Well Mr. Just Curious, I think you'll do a fine business in North Wales selling your "He who steals my purse steals trash" t-shirts. They may sell big during an economic recession. Thanks for your post and good luck with your Shakespeare revival! I promised to say a few words on Hughes-Hallett today so I'll get at it.

On Aug 7, 1888 Colonel Hughes-Hallett was in London when he heard the news of the day. By midnight, he was in the slums of Whitechapel hunting for a prostitute's killer. There was something about the Tabram murder which compelled this Knighted Parliament Member to take immediate action. The Colonel didn't go to the police with this, but instead he responded to the murder in a very personal manner. Look at the decisiveness and the urgency Hughes-Hallett displayed on Aug 7th. The Colonel reacted like he had been expecting something to occur. In just a matter of hours after hearing of the killing, Hughes-Hallett attained military clearance to investigate George Yard, he disguised his physical appearance, he loaded up his revolver, and he brought money with him to bribe the cop who eventually led him to the murder site. The Colonel was all set to commence his Whitechapel hunt at midnight. Hughes-Hallett explained that midnight was the time Tabram's killer would leave his West End club, so the Colonel had done his homework on this suspect of his.

The Colonel did not show any signs on Aug 7th that he was taken by surprise by the murder. His coordinated response was conducted too quickly and too decisively for anyone to think he wasn't prepared to react.

[Joe Chetcuti]

In the autumn of 1888, the NY World's views on the Whitechapel murders privately focused on the contents of the Oct 6th interview that was conducted with Colonel Hughes-Hallett, and it publicly focused on the Littlechild Suspect. On Oct 6th Hughes-Hallett may have provided the NY World with the name of his Pall Mall suspect. Once Tumblety's name was brought out publicly in mid-November, the NY World led the way by printing many pre-prepared articles about the 'doctor'. They had the jump on all of their newspaper rivals. They had a six week head start on everybody to gather their material on Tumblety, and their advantage showed.

[jmenges]

Hi Joe et al,

I find it a curious coincidence that the very day (Nov 18) many papers (including the SF Chronicle) were carrying the first news of Tumblety's arrest, they also ran, at times on the same page, the tale of Sir George Arthur.

To refresh, Sir George Arthur was a West End Club member of, to use HH's phrasing "gentleman, a person of wealth and culture perhaps" who, dressed in an old shooting coat and slouch hat, was apprehended by the police while speaking to a Whitechapel prostitute.

Quoting from the New York World

"if a man goes alone and tries to lure a woman of the street into a secluded street to talk to her, he is pretty sure to get into trouble.

That was the case with Sir George Arthur of the Price of Wales set. He put on an old shooting coat and a slouch hat and went to Whitechapel for a little fun. He got it. It occurred to two policemen that Sir George answered very much to the popular description of Jack the Ripper. They watched him, and when they saw him talking with a woman they collared him. He protested, expostulated and threatened them with the royal wrath, but in vain. Finally a chance was given him to send to a fashionable West End club to prove his identity, and he was released with profuse apologies for the mistake. The affair was kept out of the newspapers, but the jolly young Barnets at Brookes Club consider the joke too good to keep quiet."

Directly below this we read:

Another arrest was a man who gave the name of Dr. Kumblety of New York. The police could not hold him on suspicion of the Whitechapel crimes, but he will be committed for trial at the Central Criminal Court under the special law passed soon after the Modern Babylon exposures. The police say this is the man's right name, as proved by letters in his possession; that he is from New York, and that he has been in the habit of crossing the ocean twice a year for several years.

I ask: If the NYW were sitting on the Tumblety story since Oct.6, and possibly even provided his name, why then would they run the lengthy story about Sir Arthur on Nov. 18, a story that jibes in many ways with HH's theory, directly above a very short piece in which Tumblety is referred to as "Kumblety" and stating the paper was assured this name correct by the police?

JM

[Joe Chetcuti]

JM,

That transatlantic cable wire story that mis-spelled Tumblety's name was sent all over the United States. I remember reading it in the Chicago Tribune and other newspapers as well. The NY World probably printed it as they received it from London, but when they wrote their own articles about the quack, they were right on target with the spelling of the man's name.

It was reported that the man arrested gave his name as Kumblety. The court reporter in London may not have known who Tumblety was and might have simply been transcribing what he heard.

Oh dear, I beg your pardon Just Curious. I now sense that you're probably a lady and not a gentleman. Sorry about that. Regardless, I do hope nobody steals your purse!

[A.P. Wolf]

I just been reading a report from the 'Atchinson Daily Globe', December 31st 1888, which gives the arrest date of Tumblety - in connection with the Whitechapel Murders - as the 27th September 1888.
Errrr?
Three victims too early or what?

[A.P. Wolf]

Another thing I would like to know, is why if Tumblety travelled back to New York on the 'La Bretagne' as Frank Townsend does not a Frank Townsend appear on the ship's manifest, or in the passenger lists available for that voyage?

[Joe Chetcuti]

Roll 528 List 1616
Line 36...
1888 3 Dec.
Ship: La Bretagne, Liverpool & Queenstown to New York
No. 36
Name Frank Townsend
Age 45
Sex M
Calling no occ.
Citizen USA
Destination NY
Location of Pass. Ist Place
# of bags 4.

Tim Riordan posted this info up a long time ago. I believe the date should have read Dec 2nd and not Dec 3rd for the La Bretagne's arrival in NY.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks for that Joe. Funny how it doesn't respond to a search at the Castle Garden site?
Surely the port of departure should read 'Le Havre' and not Liverpool?
Four pieces of baggage huh?
Doesn't sound like a man in a hurry to me.

[Joe Chetcuti]

I wonder if the La Bretagne's voyage originated from Liverpool and ended in New York via Le Havre? Maybe Tim's paperwork only designated the ship's commencement port and final destination.

[Joe Chetcuti]

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/5915.html

If you scroll down to Tim's February 28, 2005 post, he will provide the details of many of Tumblety's transatlantic voyages.

As for Tumblety behaving like a man who was in a hurry or not, I haven't read anything about his behavior when he boarded the La Bretagne on Saturday Nov 24th, but I'll post something that reports of his mannerisms when he disembarked off the La Bretagne on Sunday Dec 2nd.

Just cook yourselves up some raviolli, I'll have it posted in a jiffy.

[Joe Chetcuti]

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/new_york_world/18881204.html

The eyewitness account in this article revealed whether or not Tumblety was hurried and nervous.

I really appreciate the researchers who worked this case before the Internet arrived. Mr. Begg & Mr. Evans and all the fine people who earned a name for themselves in this field didn't have the accessible information that we enjoy today.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Yeah, this is 4 consecutive posts from me, but at least they're all short! I just got private word from the horse's mouth. It will be officially recorded in the Home Office and in the Pentagon that......"Tim made a boo-boo."

Tim told me that he meant to type that the La Bretagne's original port of departure was Le Havre and that this was a non-stop voyage to New York. The French vessel didn't go to or come from England during this journey.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks for all your efforts there, Joe.
Much appreciated.
The age is out by a good ten years as well, but hell, vanity is a big thing.
I still don't understand why I can't get the name up on the Castle Garden site though.
As another favour could you possibly get Tim to give the exact spelling of both names?
Talking of vanity, I don't think Tumblety could have refused the chance to bung himself on the passenger list as a 'doctor', so in the meantime I'll check all the doctors that were on board the SS La Bretagne on that voyage from Le Havre to New York.

[A.P. Wolf]

This piece of history, sadly from 1890 and not 1888, does show that the SS La Bretagne published a full list of all its cabin passengers in a colourful brochure for every voyage.
Wouldn't it be fine and dandy to get hold of the November 1888 voyage from Le Havre to New York.
Nice pic of Castle Garden, and the good ship.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/bretagne.jpg

[A.P. Wolf]

One imagines Tumblety's listing in the SS La Bretagne's colour brochure for the voyage in November of 1888.
'Dr. Tumblety, late of Leman Street Police Station, fleeing bail with 4 pieces of heavy baggage, pair of cavalry boots, varied collection of uteri - some new - patent snake oil and pimple creams available for young men suffering from sea sickness on the voyage. References available from Inspector Andrews, the Parnell Commission and Lord Thomas of Texas... it's raining men'.

[SirRobertAnderson]

I'll try once more to get us into the NY Herald on the Casebook. If this doesn't work, I'll take back what I said. Begg & Evans had it much easier than us after all!!!

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/new_york_herald/881204.html

Interesting.....sounds like in some ways ALL parties to the debate may have a piece of the truth.


Inspector Byrnes was asked what his object in shadowing Twomblety. "I simply wanted to put a tag on him." he replied, "so that we can tell where he is. Of course, he cannot be arrested, for there is no proof in his complicity in the Whitechapel murders, and the crime for which he was under bond in London is not extaditable."

"Do you think he is Jack the Ripper?" the Inspector was asked.

"I don't know anything about it, and therefore I don't care to be quoted. But if they think in London that they may need him, and he turns out to be guilty our men will probably have a good idea where he can be found."

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

As a bit of a sidenote to Tumblety's trip to New York, I just found this piece of info about the La Bretagne. Apparently it collided with a pier in New York in 1901:

http://supreme.justia.com/us/182/406/

La Bretagne made its maiden voyage in 1886, was sold in 1912, was renamed the Alesia in 1919, was sold for scrap in 1923 but ended up running aground and becoming a write-off anyway.
All that and some more info at this link:

http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/descriptions/ShipsL.html

So it was no Titanic, but not a bad effort! ;)
Will have to dig around for some passenger lists now...

Cheers,
Adam.

[A.P. Wolf]

I know there are a lot of press reports around that talk about Tumblety's supposed 'bad' attitude towards women, that he was a 'woman hater' and so on and so forth; and that this is then used to qualify him as a valid suspect for the Whitechapel Murders... but as I've pointed out before there are a number of press reports out there which do directly contradict these other reports.
Mrs. McNamara, Tumblety's landlady for many years in New York had the following to say about him:
'He wouldn't hurt a fly. He is the perfect gentleman.'
The reporter who filed this story with the 'Daily Picayune' on the 4th December 1888 described Mrs. McNamara as of 'irrefragable respectability and irreproachable veracity'.
Now that's what I call a good witness.
In the same report it is said of Tumblety that he 'manifested a decided aversion to the fair sex'.
Could that just be because Tumblety was gay?

[SirRobertAnderson]

Hey all,

As a bit of a sidenote to Tumblety's trip to New York....

What was Dr. T's address when he was living in New York ? I can take a look and see if the old building is still there and take a few photos if anyone is interested.

[A.P. Wolf]

I'd hold the bus on that one, if I was you, Sir Robert, as I have just received an e-mail giving me Tumblety's address in New York after December 6th when he supposedly had 'fled'.
But as a New Yorker, you can do me a big favour.
If you had to ship out of England for Toronto and Montreal would you book your passage via Halifax or would you book it via New York?
My understanding is that a rail journey from New York to Montreal - or Toronto - takes about an hour and a half, and would have been about two hours in 1888.
Surely that is a better option than Halifax?
Especially if you planned to return to the UK after visiting Toronto, Montreal and New York - in that order - would you opt for New York or Halifax as your point of departure back to the UK?

[SirRobertAnderson]

My understanding is that a rail journey from New York to Montreal - or Toronto - takes about an hour and a half, and would have been about two hours in 1888.
Surely that is a better option than Halifax?


A.P. Montreal is a shade under 400 miles from NYC. I drove it about 20 years ago...took me 9 hours aside from the border crossing.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Sir Robert
I guess that would make Halifax about a 27 hour drive from New York then?
As it's three times the distance.
And you drove 25mph for nine hours?
That's a nice carbon footprint.

[Donald Souden]

AP,

If you had to ship out of England for Toronto and Montreal would you book your passage via Halifax or would you book it via New York?
My understanding is that a rail journey from New York to Montreal - or Toronto - takes about an hour and a half, and would have been about two hours in 1888.
Surely that is a better option than Halifax?

Don't think even a Bullet Train would be that fast. According to a 1954 timetable (when American rail standards were still pretty good) the best trip between New York and Montreal (via the New York Central and Delaware & Hudson) ran about 10 hours. In 1888 that would be maybe a couple hours longer.

In the same 1954 era, Halifax to Boston via local lines and Boston and Maine RR would be about 24 hours, plus another six hours to New York via the New Haven line. Not much difference going on to Montreal and then down to New York. And probably longer in 1888.

Of course. much would depend on whether, back then, there were better arrangements between Montral and Halifax via rail or water. And, I would have no idea about the time lag between Halifax and New York as ports of call for trans-Atlantic steamers. And also, whether as a British subject (and Scotland Yard official) Andrews would get expedited landing and travel arrangements by debarking in Canada.

Don.

[SirRobertAnderson]

And you drove 25mph for nine hours?
That's a nice carbon footprint.

More like 45mph....which is respectable when you factor in the traffic getting out of NYC.....:car:

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks chaps.
I guess you can see that I am struggling with the concept of a person based in London, England, who might want to visit Toronto, Montreal and New York in 1888 making their choice of arrival port as Halifax, or even Portland... when New York would have been a much more viable option.
Restricted sailings applied on the route whilst sailings to New York were available on almost everyday of the week from Liverpool and Southampton.
It also seems to me that it would have been a lot easier, quicker and certainly more practical to travel from New York to Toronto and Montreal, rather than from Halifax or Portland... and most certainly if one intended to finish off their round trip in New York, which this person appears to have done.

Give Tumblety his credit, he understood the transatlantic machinations of 1888 a lot better than the boys at Scotland Yard. By taking the short ferry ride to Le Havre and then taking the La Bretagne he managed to shave two days off the normal transatlantic crossing time.
Lots of folks did it. They weren't all bail hoppers... or Jack the Ripper.

[A.P. Wolf]

Another thing I'm struggling with is the sheer size of Tumblety. I've read accounts now where he is described as being six foot four inches tall, and one witness who knew him very well described him as 'a Titan in stature'.
Combining that stature with his extremely unusual appearance I don't think you would have made a mistake in identifying the good doctor.
Was there anyway a single witness description of a suspect over six foot tall with hair down his back and moustaches that would have got him stuck in Berner Street?

[Sam Flynn]

Was there anyway a single witness description of a suspect over six foot tall with hair down his back and moustaches that would have got him stuck in Berner Street?
Mary Pearcey?

[Donald Souden]

Mary Pearcey?

Now, now Sam. I'll grant that Mary's "teeth for two" might well have enabled her to eat an apple through a tennis racquet, but she seems to have been quite devoid of off-putting lip spinach.

Don.

[A.P. Wolf]

And wasn't Tumblety's tallest 'tall' story the one about how he had once died and there was no way that they could get his gigantic frame into a normal coffin, so they started to saw his legs off... and that's when he sat up in the coffin?

[Stan Russo]

I had never heard that story, but it's a good one.

Would you classify Tumblety as an obnoxious braggard?

Stan

[Joe Chetcuti]

New York Herald Nov 19, 1888.

Look that article up in the Casebook and scroll down to the part that says "HE WAS DEAD ONCE" and you can read a brief account of Tumblety's parable. This story also appeared in another newspaper.

The doctor claimed he was thrown from his horse and killed. He then rose to life on the third day.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks for the reference Joe.
Stan, yes, I would classify Tumblety as a braggard, but not as obnoxious.
Most descriptions of him from the time seem to portray him as an urban, street wise, canny and handsome man with a stature and appearance that you were not going to forget in a hurry.
If this giant of a man had wandered around Whitechapel in 1888, knocking folk down with his hair and moustaches, I'm quite sure they would have remembered it.

[Joe Chetcuti]

In the past, I felt that Tumblety's claim to have risen from death after three days was a mockery of the Resurrection. The other part of his parable spoke of how his legs were threatened with amputation as he laid deceased. Last year, my initial thoughts on that aspect of the parable drew me towards the Crucifixion scene in John's Gospel. (This is because Christ's legs were also threatened with harm when he was dead.) After plenty of research into this, and after talking with people who would be most knowledgable in the matter, I can say now that a derision of the Crucifixion scene was probably not the intent of this aspect of Tumblety's parable.

It won't be long now before I'll be sharing plenty of information that has been learned about this Pittsburgh undertaker story. That info won't be placed on this thread, but it will still be made accessible to everyone.

[Stan Russo]

AP,

If Tumblety was a braggard, as you freely admit to, and obnoxiously such, as almost everyone else admits to, how could he have escaped getting caught for these murders? Wouldn't there be a trail leading directly back to him, probably from his own statements?

Stan

[A.P. Wolf]

Well Stan, the easy answer to that is that he could afford to brag about being a suspect in the Whitechapel Murders just as long as he didn't actually kill anyone.
Of course I have a much more complicated answer for you - it wouldn't be me if I didn't - and that is I've always felt it an essential fatal flaw in the flow to identify a killer of the nature of the Whitechapel Murderer with men like Tumblety and Le Grand; powerful and charismatic individuals with almost shamanistic qualities of power and escape. Powerful men who have used these almost magical qualities and abilities to make society dance to their tune, rather than the other way round.
Powerful men who had clearly used society - and of course the individuals that make up that society - to steer their own persuasive course, smashing through society, just a skip and a heart beat ahead of the law of the land which chases and pursues them, mostly to no avail.
It is not often in the remit of such powerful and dominant individuals to resort to murder... unless of course there is a purpose and an achievement behind that fatal and final act.
And that my dear chap is the rub.
There is no purpose or achievement behind the Whitechapel Murders, only the shadowy world of an individual who avoids society rather than confronting it.
All that remains is the disembodied alienation of an individual who is so far off the track of normal society that he might never be found.
Others use smoke and mirrors to find him.
I use Dylan's 'Alien Wind'.

[A.P. Wolf]

Extract of letter, written by Tumblety to his male lover, Caine, in 1876:

'It gives me infinite pleasure to hear from you and I should dearly love to see your sweet face and spend an entire night in your company. I feel such melancholy when I read your amiable letter and it brings back the pleasing reminiscences of the past and although eight thousand miles now seperate us it only stimulates the affection I have for you.'

Serial killer of women?
Bah!

[How Brown]

Dearest A.P.

Although 2,500 miles of wind swept sea separates us...and despite being up to my long,slender,yet sultry,neck trying to put a book together with my heterosexual girlfriend ( yecch !!!) on D'onston ...my throbbing heart ( and other stuff too what throb...) is beating like a Bessemer steel jack hammer at the thought of you sharing another tear stained love letter from Franky T. to Hall Caine.

I could write better love letters to a guy than this Tumbelty...

[Debbie D]

Extract of letter, written by Tumblety to his male lover, Caine, in 1876:

'It gives me infinite pleasure to hear from you and I should dearly love to see your sweet face and spend an entire night in your company. I feel such melancholy when I read your amiable letter and it brings back the pleasing reminiscences of the past and although eight thousand miles now seperate us it only stimulates the affection I have for you.'

Serial killer of women?
Bah!

AP,
Where can we actually see these letters? Is there a website or book with these? :wave:
I love seeing the old documents!

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks How & Debs
delightful ain't they?... what a sweet old bugger he was!

Debs, if you search Google books for 'Hall Caine: Portrait of a Victorian Romancer' by Vivien Allen, on page 40 you'll find extracts from at least three of Tumblety's letters to Caine.

[Chris G.]

Some links on Sir Henry Hall Caine (1853 - 1931):

http://www.mcb.net/manxmen/hcaine.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_Caine

Debbie, there are Hall Caine letters at Georgetown University, though they appear to be from 1888 onward (and mostly 1895-1926) so probably don't contain his correspondence with Tumblety which seems to have been in the 1870s when they were intimate:

http://library.georgetown.edu/dept/speccoll/cl97.htm

As noted by AP, Google Books gives pages from Ms Allen's book quoting the Tumblety letters:

Hall Caine: Portrait of a Victorian Romancer By Vivien Allen, p. 40 (http://books.google.com/books?id=QadT5LBjO3wC&pg=PA40&dq=hall+caine+tumblety&sig=-aONiRQxsa3bFsTLw_VSi3GAib8)

[A.P. Wolf]

Did Tumblety parade around on a great white horse with a greyhound in tow, or was it a poodle?

'He generally travels on foot, accompanied by his faithful poodle'.
(BDE - May 6th 1864)

Was Tumblety a woman hater?

'He excited the admiration of young ladies'.
(BDE - May 6th 1864)

'Having gained the heart and hand of the heiress of one of the richest families on the Heights, who fell in love with him while on a professional visit'.
(BDE - May 4th 1865)

And was Tumblety Irish?
Not according to 'im he wasn't.

'A great Medicine Man of the Saltz-an-Sennah tribe'.
(BDE - May 6th 1864)

[A.P. Wolf]

I'd forgotten this:

'On December 1st 1888, William Smith, a Deputy Minister of Ottawa, wrote the following in a private letter:

'"My dear Barber.... Do you recollect Dr. Tumblety who came to St. John about 1860 and who used to ride on a beautiful white horse with a long tail, and a couple of grey hounds following after him? Do you recollect how he used to canter along like a circus man? And do you recollect that it was asserted that he killed old Portmore, the Carpenter who built the extension to my house and fleeced me to a large extent? Do you recollect how he suddenly left St. John, circus horse, hounds and all, and afterwards turned up at different places in the States and Canada? He was considered by Dr. Bayard and others an adventurer and Quack Doctor. He is the man who was arrested in London three weeks ago as the Whitechapel murderer. He had been living in Birmingham and used to come up to London on Saturday nights. The police have always had their eyes on him every place he went and finally the Birmingham Police telegraphed to the London Police that he had left for London, and on his arrival he was nabbed accordingly. He must now be 58 or 60 years of age as he left St. John about 1860. He was a tall handsome man and a beautiful rider. When I was in Eastport in 1860 detained by a storm, I met him there and spent part of the day with him. He was very agreeable and intelligent. I do not think he could be the Whitechapel fiend. He now spells his name Twomblety. I believe his original name was Mike Sullivan."

William Smith wrote his letter on the 1st December, and he is quite specific about Tumblety being arrested in connection with the Whitechapel Murders 'three weeks ago'... that would be the 10th November, wouldn't it?
More or less within hours of MJK being murdered.

[How Brown]

Nice find,A.P. !

Doesn't this sound like more Tumbelty-invented merde?

[Chris G.]

And was Tumblety Irish?
Not according to 'im he wasn't.

'A great Medicine Man of the Saltz-an-Sennah tribe'.
(BDE - May 6th 1864)

Just like a duck, does a quack doctor quack or not?

Of course if he was cavorting as an "Indian Herb Doctor" he would act the part, whether he was a great Medicine Man of the Saltz-an-Sennah tribe or of the Saltz-an-Peppah tribe. :rolleyes:

Chris

[A.P. Wolf]

I think Natalie might enjoy this one.
So we have Tumblety, an Irish-American of some fame, with perhaps dubious connections to the dreaded Fenians, well known to the English police for his escapades in the late 1870's, appeared in court and all that, was in the habit of popping over to Ireland to visit powerful friends and all that; arrives at Liverpool docks, what was it June or July 1888? Can't remember now. Then Tumblety trolls up to London and starts murdering prostitutes in Whitechapel?
And gets away with it?
Getouttahere!
Just read this report from the 'Rocky Mountain News', October 10th 1888, and then try and tell me that Tumblety was not watched by detectives from the moment he landed in England, and that these same detectives may well have stood back whilst Tumblety indulged his normal vices - eventually nabbing him when he got to number four bell hop - but I don't think they would have allowed him to murder five prostitutes.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/bulldozer1.jpg

[Shelley]

I must comment and say that the newspaper clipping didn't mention Tumbelty's name, Dr or otherwise. Even if it had, the post is referring to The British Police/Detectives would have been watching Tumbelty anyway, so therefore he couldn't have murdered prostitutes under thier very eyes.
Has anyone thought of the possiblility of Littlechild in his letter, being part of the constabulary and knowing of Tumbelty as well, over that of a vague newspaper clipping( Journalists), and we all remember the famous Ripper letters, one signed Jack the Ripper clearly in Bullen's handwriting thus a fabrication of the sensation of the ripper murders.
I'd rather much take a detective's opinon than a piece written of pre-text journalism that doesn't even mention ' Tumbelty '.

Littlechild...Journalist....Littlechild...Journali st? :tape:

[Shelley]

I must comment and say that the newspaper clipping didn't mention Tumbelty's name, Dr or otherwise. Even if it had, the post is referring to The British Police/Detectives would have been watching Tumbelty anyway, so therefore he couldn't have murdered prostitutes under thier very eyes.
Has anyone thought of the possiblility of Littlechild in his letter, being part of the constabulary and knowing of Tumbelty as well, over that of a vague newspaper clipping( Journalists), and we all remember the famous Ripper letters, one signed Jack the Ripper clearly in Bullen's handwriting thus a fabrication of the sensation of the ripper murders.
I'd rather much take a detective's opinon than a piece written of pre-text journalism that doesn't even mention ' Tumbelty '.

Littlechild...Journalist....Littlechild...Journali st? :tape:

AP,
Where can we actually see these letters? Is there a website or book with these? :wave:
I love seeing the old documents!

Debbie,
A lot of prostitutes hate men, but they will still be charming, bed them and feel justified in taking thier money.
Also the serial killer Alieen Wurnos, a prostitute , hated men long before she started killing them, that's why she had a lesbian lover of long-standing for one, and also married a millionaire in his 90's for his money. :tape:

[Natalie Severn]

Very interesting AP.I do appreciate you posting the above article---a great find too
Cheers
Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

I should like to make it quite clear here.
I am posting the following report from 'The Times' of August 14th 1900 as the nail in the coffin of all those who maintain that it would have been impossible for Tumblety to have been kept in police custody for longer than 36 hours without appearing before a magistrate.
This is the same period, the same police force, and we find a person detained for five days in police custody without recourse to a police magistrate.
Read it very carefully indeed.
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/katz1.jpg

[Dan Norder]

So, you are arguing that actual documented proof that the legal authorities found it appalling that one person could have been imprisoned for a few days without seeing a magistrate somehow supports your contention that Tumblety was likely kept locked up for a week without police bail?

You always somehow manage to try to use evidence showing that your argument is unlikely in the extreme as somehow proving your case.

[A.P. Wolf]

No, Dan, I am merely presenting data from the time period which shows that it is entirely false to claim that Tumblety 'must' have been released on bail within 36 hours of his arrest.
The police of the time, it appears, were more than willing to hold someone in custody, for five days in this case, until they had gained the evidence they needed; and were willing to take a punch on the nose for their trouble from an angry magistrate.
Just keeping things nice and neat, Dan.

[A.P. Wolf]

'GEORGE HENRY SCULLARD, Sexual Offences > sodomy, Miscellaneous > other, 19th November 1888.

Reference Number: t18881119-66
Offences: Sexual Offences (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Crimes.jsp#sexual) > sodomy (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Crimes.jsp#sodomy); Miscellaneous (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Crimes.jsp#miscellaneous) > other (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Crimes.jsp#other)
Verdicts: Not Guilty (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Verdicts.jsp#notguilty) > no evidence (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Verdicts.jsp#noevidence)



See original (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=188811190079) http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/i/genericThumb.jpg (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=188811190079)
66. GEORGE HENRY SCULLARD (34) , for an unnatural offence with William Haynes Styles.
MR. POLAND Prosecuted; MR. BESLEY Defended. Mr. Poland, after opening the case, with the sanction of the Court, offered no evidence.
NOT GUILTY; and also on another indictment for a misdemeanour.
Before Mr. Recorder. '

One notes that the first offence is not classified as a 'misdemeanour' but rather an 'unnatural offence'.