Jacobite Plot

[David Knott]

Hello all, just registered and finding my way around.
My favourite 'motive' at the moment is that the killings were performed by a handful of Jacobite extremists.
At the time of the Whitechapel murders there was something of a romantic Jacobite revival going on, with secret societies whose members consisted largely of Scottish Rites Masons, Templars, Occultists and Magicians. As I understand it, they believed that the Stuarts were part of the same bloodline as David and Jesus, and had a divine right to the throne.
In 1888 (bicentenary of the Glorious Revolution) they were supposed to be having a grand Stuart exhibition in London, but this was undermined by Queen Victoria and the English freemasons.
I think that one or two of the more fanatical Jacobites devised a plan to basically provide a 'show of strength' for the benefit of Victoria, and Charles Warren who years earlier had led the British Army team in Jerusalem that may have acquired treasures that the Jacobites thought were rightly theirs.
I think that they planned the killings to form a large cross. I believe that they profaned the cross as they did not accept the orthodox Christian view of Jesus's death, believing him to have survived and had children. This explains the 'double event', as after the third killing, the venue for the fourth might have become obvious if they had not acted quickly. I also think that there is a possibility that Mary Kelly was the intended last victim - perhaps there is some connection with the Gentleman who she went to France with.
I am interested in Tom Slemen's theory that the marks on Eddowes face were Hebrew relating to Warrens finds under Temple Mount. Also, I see significance in the targetting of the womb, as a symbol of the Grail.
I strongly suspect D'Onston of being involved - bearing in mind what we know about him there can be little doubt that he was a Jacobite. The change of name to Roslyn has clear parallels with S L Mathers adopting the name 'MacGregor'. Mathers was a member of the White Rose Society that was organising the ill fated exhibition.

Interested to know if any of this sounds plausible to anyone else.

David

[WTM]

Hello, David:

And welcome to JTR Forums. I have taken the liberty of moving your post to a discussion forum that I believe is more appropriate, this being the 'Political and/or Ideological' forum under Motives and Reasons. I was sufficiently impressed by your content that I created a separate subforum for it, rather than just leave it as a thread.

This forum is intended to cover all conspiracies, plots, etc., that were either politically motivated or had some society or organization behind it all. The Jacobites seemed to fit well, and so here we are.

Your questions are good ones, and when one of the resident D'Onston experts logs in, I expect some heavy discussion. Thanks for contributing.

[David Knott]

Hi and thanks for the welcome.

Some more things in connection with this idea that might be of interest.
The guys at the forefront of Jacobite politics at this time were Lord Ashburnham and the Marquis de Ruvigny. If anyone thinks that a Jacobite plot sounds a bit far fetched, it is evidently the case that Lord Ashburnham subsequently became involved in a conspiracy to invade Spain no less! (According to the confessions of Aleister Crowley at any rate, so take it with a pinch of salt if you like!!) The interesting thing about the Marquis de Ruvigny is that he was leader of the British Huguenot community, and even as late as 1888 they owned much land in Spitalfields where they had originally settled after fleeing France.
Another interesting point is that if there was a Jacobite plot, then Sir Charles Warren must have surely had some idea what was going on, and he is on record as stating that he believed the crimes to be the work of a secret society.
I also wonder whether the Jacobites started the rumours about the Duke of Clarence - there is a bizarre parallel to the Sickert story, with rightful heirs to the throne, freemasons etc. If so, it is possible that Sickert got the story from his former mentor Whistler, who was also a Jacobite and member of the White Rose society.

David

[George]

Hello David,
Welcome to the group! Your theory on the Jacobites is extremely interesting. Excellent thinking! Thanks.

George

[David Knott]

I have been reading 'The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland' by 'HRH Prince Michael of Albany' (who believes himself to be the rightful heir to the throne via the Stuart line).
According to him, the Stuart Exhibition that was undermined by Victoria and her Hanoverian agents (Charles Warren?) was to be attended by HRH Prince Charles Benedict James Stuart, 4th Count of Albany, but he was murdered in Italy before he could attend. Don't know if it's true, but if so it would obviously increase the Jacobites motive for some act of revenge.

David

[David Knott]

Re Mr D'Onston's choice of name - Roslyn.
Clearly it is connected with the well known family of Scottish Masons/Templars and the Grail chapel ...the interesting thing that I have just realised is that its literal translation is 'bloodline'.
It is widely believed that the religious artefacts recovered by the Templars from their excavations under Temple Mount in the 12th century now lie beneath Rosslyn Chapel. Very interesting, in my opinion, is the fact that the next person to excavate the site was a certain Charles Warren! This was at the behest of Queen Victoria under the banner of the Palestine Exploration Fund, whose purpose was apparently to find evidence that would support the teachings of the church, presumably because what the Templars found had contradicted the teachings of the church.

David

[How Brown]

Dear David........Thanks for supplying us with this material. Especially me,as being the dummy that I am, I am really in the dark about the Jacobites.....Here is another reference to what Mr. Knott has posted below from Ivor on another thread at this site. Thanks again,David..........http://www.jtrforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61&perpage=20&pagenumber=7

[David Knott]

Yes, it looks like Ivor and myself are both thinking along similar lines. I am particularly struck by D'Onston's claim to relationship with the Roslyns - for me it is Jacobitism and the belief in a Grail bloodline that is the key.
An interesting aside, although probably a coincidence, is that the sister of the 5th Earl of Rosslyn was once romantically linked to our old friend Prince Albert Victor - the Duke of Clarence.

David

[How Brown]

Here is the general URL ( at Google ) for Jacobite information. Maybe Mr. Knott can refer us to which of these is the best in his estimation for obtaining information on the subject


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Jacobites%22&btnG=Google+Search

[David Knott]

Hi Howard,
I find that if you search under 'Jacobite' you will mainly find information relating to the period 1688 - 1745.
It is unlikely to explain too much about sacred bloodlines and the beliefs of Scottish Rites masons, Templars and other Occultists. What I am particularly interested in is the secret Jacobite societies that were springing up around the time of the Whitechapel murders (particularly the 'White Rose').
One author I would recommend is Laurence Gardner. He is a Knight Templar and the Jacobite Historiographer Royal. His books are always fascinating. It is not always easy to believe evrything in them, as the contents are usually quite astonishing, but the work certainly seems to be extremely scholarly.
He has a website at http://graal.co.uk/
All the best
David

[David Knott]

Here are some more related URLs: -
www.jacobite.ca/essays/ruvigny.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/forgottenfutures/kings/kings.htm
www.the-cauldron.fsnet.co.uk/BLACK_MAR1.htm
http://pub25.ezboard.com/fsurfingtheapocalypsefrm7.showMessage?topicID=11.t opic

The third one is interesting, bearing in mind one of Mary Kelly's supposed nicknames!

Discussions on the subject of sacred bloodlines really took off in the 1980s after the publication of 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' - another fascinating read. It is to be noted that one of the co-authors is a member of the masonic research lodge founded by Sir C Warren.

The only slight doubt I have about this theory is why would they kill innocent women? The Jacobites are not bad people, and for the main part Jacobite politics of the late 19th century was good natured.
I believe that we are dealing with just two or three extremists, of which D'Onston was probably one. I think, perhaps, that they were trying to exaggerate the strength of their support, and very likely were blackmailing Warren for the return of some 'Stuart' treasures.

Warren made it known to the Home Secretary at a very early stage that he believed the crimes to be the work of a secret society.

David

[Garry]

Hello David,

I was just about to pop off to my bed when I spotted this thread.
You've posted a lot of truth re the Jacobites and the bloodline theories etc.

I have a big problem with a Jacobite plot being behind the murders, although there's a definite link as you've said with the adoption of Scottish names (a peculiar trait of the 'Golden Dawn' - even Crowley did it). I mentioned this to Ivor quite a while back when looking into my family roots and the Golden Dawn, two separates that intertwined somewhat.

There's also a theory being put about that Princess Diana who had Stuart blood in her veins was bumped off because of this (I doubt that part of it) - I'm a very very distant relation to her and my dads auntie was also 'lady in waiting' to the Queen Mother years and years ago.

Half of my family were Jacobites during the second uprising that failed. My Grans side were stout Jacobites (interestingly she met Crowley when she was a young girl in Foyers near Boleskine House). My main bloodline (The Rosses) married into the Royal family of the Bruces but before that we were at the helm of the House of Tara in Ireland, so the Royal blood was there from an early age. We also have blood links to Frasers, MacLaren, MacKinnon, MacDonald, MacKenzie, Munro and Sinclair amongst others. It was all part of the clan system in those days.

Anyway, the Royals we have today aren't of 'proper stock', I believe (from memory) that that ended with Henry IV who was a 'bastard', born from a liason with an archer. So anyone that ruled afterwards was tainted and had no real right to claim the throne.
A lot of murders were commited against the Plantagenets who did have a right to the throne.
A lot of this history has been covered over but it's there for all to see if looked at properly.

While 'Queen' Victoria was having her love affair with everything tartan, some of my ancestors in Ross-shire were being bludgeoned to death by the police and army while Victoria looked the other way.
Also the police and secret services were looking at the Fenians rather than much on home soil... especially the 'Fenian Brotherhood' and 'Clan-Na-Gael' who had huge support amonst Irish-Americans and were made up largely of Civil War veterans (from both sides) so this could be the 'secret society' that Warren spoke of...I'm pretty sure it was.

The literal translation of 'Rosslyn' is actually 'High ridge of land near a lake'.
Also with regards HRH Prince Charles Benedict James Stuart, 4th Count of Albany, I'm pretty sure he suffered ill health for a long time but I can look into that.

A lot of rot has been written about Rosslyn chapel but I'm sure some of the stories have an ounce of truth about them.
Some of the stories we were told about our ancestors when growing up seemed too good to be true too but parts of it were true.

The truth behind the Stewarts/Stuarts/Stewards is that they imploded at their own hand for the most part and Bonnie Prince Charlie wasn't welcomed by too many people either.

Masons all over the world have Jesus Christ as their 'Master Mason', they don't see him as the 'son of God' in the way the bible portrays him and also that Mary, his wife, travelled over to France with his son (the holy graal) and his blood continued into the Stuart dynasty. They also say Jesus never died on the cross and was a mortal who should've been king of Israel etc- echoes of Bonnie Prince Charlie and the 'Skye Boat Song' really isn't it? ;)

I don't know how much truth there is in this theory but it's interesting - although the French part about that rue le chateaux[something or other] place has been proven to be a hoax.

I don't see there being a fully fledged Jacobite plot behind the Whitechapel murders though, interesting to see what is said though :)

[Garry]

I've just thought...a little co-incidence has popped up here, you've given a link to Laurence Gardner - my name, Garry, in Gaelic is Garradh which when translated is 'Garden'!!! :D

OK, so it wasn't mind blowing...:p

[David Knott]

Garry,

Thanks for you excellent and most helpful post. What a fantastic family history!
Regarding the literal translation of Rosslyn/Roslin - I read somewhere (and I wish I could remember where) that the Ross part = rose = blood and the lyn part = line. I thought it might have been in Knight & Lomas' book 'The Second Messiah', but I've just looked and they are translating it as 'ancient knowledge passed down through the generations'!!
I certainly agree with you that it was not a fully fledged Jacobite plot. My thinking is that it would have involved two or three people at most at the very extremes of some of the occult societies of the time. The 'Order of the White Rose' is a name that keeps cropping up.
I would be fascinated if you could come up with anything on the demise of HRH Prince Charles Benedict James Stuart, 4th Count of Albany. According to 'The Forgotten Monarchy' he had supposedly fallen from a horse, but the post-mortem revealed that he had been suffocated.
It may well be that I am putting two and two together and getting five, but there seem to be so many little concidences (the cross, the wombs, the bicentenary etc. etc.) that I feel it is a theory worthy of investigation.

Regards

David

[David Knott]

Garry,

I knew I'd find it eventually! In Keith Laidler's 'The Head of God' it says: -
"Rosslyn is quite obviously derived from the older name for the area, Roslin. It is possible that this title is an amalgamation of two celtic words, Ros, meaning a ridge or promontory and lin, a waterfall. However, I discovered that the Sinclairs ... favoured a second explanation. They saw Roslin as meaning Rose-Line, which in turn symbolised the blood (or perhaps bloodline) of Jesus."
This is confirmed by Andrew Sinclair in 'The Sword and the Grail'.
I agree with you about some of the stories concerning the chapel. The ones about cloning experiments up the road at Roslin Institute, the DNA strand design of the apprentice pillar and the identity of certain bones supposedly there all make for interesting reading!

David

[Garry]

Hello David,

I'd go more for the Celtic translation than the 'Rose-Line' one...my surname 'Ross' was also used later by a Norse/Norman family and changed to 'Rose', from memory they were based around Nairn and were Hanoverian supporters but never fought.. Bonnie Prince Charlie had dinner with the chief shortly before the battle of Culloden - considering the Chiefs supposed loyalty to the Govt in London that must've been one heck of a dinner. The chief was father in law to Duncan Forbes who fought with Charlie at Culloden.

The name 'Ross' that came to be used by us was because of the land (promontory), we were originally 'Clan Anrias' (followers of Andrew) and the original 'surname' was O'Beolain.

Sir William Sinclair of Rosslyn was killed in battle in Spain carrying Robert the Bruces heart. It's pretty much known that during the battle of Bannockburn that the Scots had a number of Templars in their ranks but there's been so many strange things written about the Templars and the Sinclairs/Rosslyn that you begin to wonder which bits are true and which bits have been romanticised and blown out of all proportion.

I had a look at the website of 'Prince Michael' and a lot of what he writes is true but there's a few bits that staggered me - especially the part you click on and it asks you if you'd like a 'Prince Michael credit card to help Scotland', oh dear :D
Scotland has done ok without the Stuarts and we still haven't forgotten how Charlie boy left us on our own without any thanks and we were booted out of the country to make way for sheep etc during the 'Highland Clearances'.

I wouldn't have thought that for one moment Scotland would want another Stuart dynasty after the last one ran off like he did. (James)

I've had a quick look into the death of Charles Benedict and there's another theory that he died from fluid in his lungs! This could've been caused by a fall from his horse.
The plot thickens...this would be suffocation of sorts too.

I'm actually helping out the Rosslyn Templars later in the year, I'm going to get photos of St Duthacs chapel in Tain, Ross-shire for their website, this was one of the collegiate churches that Rosslyn was a later addition to.
The battle shirt of Hugh, Earl of Ross (and Templar) is inside the chapel too, he died at the battle of Halidon Hill.

Research is ongoing into the reality of the whole Rosslyn/Templars history and hopefully it'll throw some light on everything. :)

[Garry]

I should also mention that one of Bonnie Prince Charlies banners used in battle was a white rose too. :)

[David Knott]

Thanks for all the info Garry.
I freely admit that most of what I have read on this subject comes from the more sensationalist books, so it's great to have someone as knowledgeable as yourself posting.
This all started because I was intrigued by the passage in Melvin Harris' 'The True Face of Jack The Ripper', from Baroness Cremers,
about D'Onston claiming relationship with the Roslyns. This led me to the custom of the time for adopting Scottish family names, and from there I saw potential links all over the place.
I'm just a bit worried that I'm going to end up in David Icke land!
Would love to know the truth behind the Rosslyn/Templar stories which are every bit as great a mystery as the Whitechapel Murders.

All the best

David

[Garry]

Ivor, I'll try and put you in contact with the Rosslyn Templars. :)

[Garry]

As strange as it may sound Ivor, I'm working on that :D
(actually, that sounds a bit sinister doesn't it? :D )

We start filming our series in York on the 28th and I'll be having words with the production crew about getting them down South to see what can be done. I've mentioned it already and there's definitely some interest there. :)

[David Knott]

Hi everyone,

Glad to see the site up and running again.

Here is an interesting link that I found to an article that mentions Jacobites, Rosslyn, The Holy Grail, Templars, Masons and Charles Warren...

http://freemasonryinjapan.com/Lecture-Templars.htm

I have been reading up on the Jacobite supporters of the time. As well as wanting to put Princess Maria Theresa, wife of Prince Ludwig of Bavaria on the throne, they demanded home rule for Scotland and supported Irish nationalism, which is interesting bearing in mind what was happening with the Fenians at the time. In fact, they involved themselves with a number of revolutionary movements across Europe, including the campaign to unify Italy (and as we know, D'Onston fought under Garibaldi!)

In one of the books I've been reading, I couldn't help noticing the Seal of the Ordo Templi Orientis (which had close links with the Golden Dawn, Jacobitism and Irish Nationalism) is in the shape of a vesica piscis.

In another one it stated that a representation of the 'juwes' story is carved in stone at Rosslyn chapel!

Every time I look at another book or website I see some connection - I think I'm starting to see things that aren't even there. Joe Barnett probably did it!!

David

[David Knott]

I've heard of the story of the master mason who went to Rome looking for inspiration only to come back and find that his apprentice had created something better than he could have dreamed of... and so he killed the apprentice by smacking him over the head with a mallet! Presumably this tale is based on the Hiram Abif legend. Does anyone know whether Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum were really known as the 'Juwes', or is that just something that Stephen Knight made up? If they were, then it would be a definite link with Rosslyn.

David

[How Brown]

Dave: As usual, very good finds on your end....