Mrs Rees 1888

[A.P. Wolf]

The 'Star' in November of 1888 claimed that 'Kelly, who was then only 17 years of age, entered the service of a Mrs Rees, who stands committed to the next assizes on a charge of procuring abortion.'
The following report is from The Times of December 20th 1888, South Wales Circuit:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/rees1.jpg

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/rees1.jpg

[A.P. Wolf]

Sorry... here follows the second half of the story concerning Mrs Rees, and her husband:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/rees3.jpg

[A.P. Wolf]

Considering the connection between Mary Kelly and the abortionist's 'Rees', I was quite struck by this case of abortion in which the unwanted baby was burnt to the bone in the fireplace of the house... quite a fierce fire required to do the job.

MARTHA BARRETT, killing : infanticide, 9th April, 1829.

The Proceedings of the Old Bailey Ref: t18290409-83

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/thumbs/1820s/182904090040.gif
See original (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/facsimiles/1820s/182904090040.html)
Trial Summary:

Crime(s): killing : infanticide (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/history/crime/crimes.html#infanticide),
Punishment Type: imprisonment (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/history/crime/punishment.html#imprisonment),
(Punishment details may be provided at the end of the trial.)
Verdict: Part Guilty: convicted of a lesser offence (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/history/crime/verdicts.html#Partiallesseroffence),
Other trials on 09 Apr 1829 (http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/db/bailey/dprocess.jsp?dc=18290409)
Name search for: MARTHA BARRETT (http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/luceneweb/hri3/hitlist_20050804.jsp?mode=bailey&table=name&surname=BARRETT&surname_type=exact&given=MARTHA&alias=&occupation=&sin=&context=&gender=&min_month=00&min_year=&max_month=13&max_year=),
Associated Records... (http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/db/bailey/aprocess.jsp?trial=t18290409-83&d_sur=&off=&d_type=&d_desc=&libarch=&a_month=&a_year=&b_month=&b_year=&s_typ=exa)
Original Text:

Before Mr. Justice Park.
793. MARTHA BARRETT was charged on the Coroner's Inquisition only, with the wilful murder of a new-born infant .
MR. PHILLIPS conducted the prosecution.
ANN SAUNDERS . I am the wife of William Saunders , of Three Colt-lane, Bethnal-green, I have known the prisoner two or three years; my daughter lived in the same house with her: I went to the house a fortnight ago, and saw the prisoner - I asked her how she did; she appeared very ill indeed: she said she was very ill, and had taken a great deal of physic; I called next day to see her, and asked how she did - she said she was very poorly indeed - I said, "Mrs. Barrett, I am an old woman, if you will tell me the truth, I will certainly keep it secret."
COURT. Then we cannot hear what she said after that.
JAMES STONE . I am beadle of Mile-end Old-town. -In consequence of information, on the 26th of March, I went to the prisoner's house; (before that the after-birth of a child had been produced to me) - she was lying on the bed- I asked her if she had not had a child; she denied having been in the family way at all; I questioned her for nearly half an hour - she still denied it; I said I was sure a child had been born - she then admitted having been in the family way, and said she had taken a quantity of savin for the purpose of causing abortion: I told her I was confident it was a full grown child - she still denied having had a child. I made a search, but found nothing; I went on the next morning, Friday, and found Mr. Carruthers there, and made a further search - I searched some garden-pots on the ledge of the window, and in the mould I found a portion of a child's skull in one, and another portion of a skull in another; I searched the fire-place, and found ahttp://www.oldbaileyonline.org/thumbs/1820s/182904090041.gif
See original (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/facsimiles/1820s/182904090041.html)number of bones, which were materially burnt - Mr. Carruthers was present: I saw the prisoner again next day - I neither threatened nor promised her any thing; I sat down by the side of the bed, and asked her how she could be guilty of so enormous a crime - she said in order that no one should have a knowledge of it; I asked her if she had cut the child into pieces - she seemed to shudder at the idea of that, and said No, she had cut the child's head off and the body was burnt - I could not tell whether it was born alive, nor did I ask her; she mentioned who was the father of the child; I then asked if he had influenced her in any way to make away with the child - she said No, no one had any knowledge of her being in the family-way, exclusive of herself. On Monday evening she was removed to the poor-house.
GEORGE EDWARD CARRUTHERS . I am a surgeon of Mile-end-road. On the 26th or 27th of March I was in the prisoner's presence with Stone; she was in a very weak state - I asked her if she had not been recently delivered; her reply was she had not; I gave her to understand that I was a medical man, and pressed her not to conceal it from me: she continued to deny it - I saw the after-birth, and her still denying it led me to apply my hand on the abdomen, and the uterus had not contracted, which satisfied me there had been a recent delivery; she persisted in not having had a child, and I left her - I went again; I had not entered the room two minutes before Stone, the beadle, came: I saw him find in the flower-pots something, which I washed - it was the greater portion of the head of a child - it had the appearance of having been burnt; Stone afterwards searched the fire-place; I took the bones from him - there was one human infant rib: a portion of the bones of an infant thigh, and some small bones which I could not distinguish - I am positive those were the bones of an infant; she no longer denied having a child, and I asked her if the child cried - she said that it did not,and that it fell from her; she then said she had laid the child in a box, and it remained there till the Wednesday night(she was delivered on the Tuesday morning), when she took it out of the box, and burnt it; she said no person knew of her being in the family-way but herself; it is impossible, from what I saw, to state whether it was born alive or not.
GUILTY (of concealing the birth.) Aged 36.
Confined Eighteen Months .
Before Mr. Baron Garrow.

Could Mary Kelly have been an abortionist?
And the gutted body a failure laid down to the score of old Capt' Jack?

[How Brown]

Thats a scary thought A.P. and an even scarier tale. Thanks !

They mentioned the use of "savin" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savin ),an abortifacient.

Thanks also for the Old Bailey link...in case some folks needed it.

Any comments,folks?

[Tom_Wescott]

AP,

I had no idea Mary Kelly was linked to an abortionist. Very intriguing, AP.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[SirRobertAnderson]

I asked her if she had cut the child into pieces - she seemed to shudder at the idea of that, and said No, she had cut the child's head off and the body was burnt

Good to see she drew the line at decapitation.

Yegads, what an awful story.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks folks, a terrible tale, but a useful one, in that it shows that body parts could be consumed in a raging fireplace overnight, leaving very little trace... unless it was carefully looked for.
In this case the 'beadle' had examined other objects of the household before finding the skull of the baby in a garden pot, and then made a further examination which turned up the other bones of the new born baby.
I can just imagine 007 Bond pulling out the bones in the fireplace at Millers Court and declaring:
'How can these poor people afford to eat chicken?'

I must admit that I'm intrigued by this connection between Mary Jane Kelly and the Rees family of Swansea, who were obviously full time, and big time abortionists in Swansea during the LVP. The sentence that was handed down to Mrs Rees, after being cleared of the original charges, was formidable for such an offence.
If such a connection can be more reliably proved it would give vital background to the person we know as Mary Jane Kelly.
My thinking at the moment is that if Mary Jane Kelly entered the Rees household in 1880, when she was 17, then it was probably for the reason of having an abortion.
I do see a certain persuasive pattern of colours here; and a very good reason for the mysterious fire that burnt who knows what at Miller's Court that night... and perhaps why Mary was allowed to fall so far behind with her rent.
And so many other bright and shining things.

[SirRobertAnderson]

body parts could be consumed in a raging fireplace overnight, leaving very little trace... unless it was carefully looked for.
In this case the 'beadle' had examined other objects of the household before finding the skull of the baby in a garden pot, .

Probably not an important point, and certainly not answerable, but I wonder if the coppers bothered to look inside Kelly's tea kettle.

Jack may have brewed up something truly 'from hell' and I'm not talking Lapsang Souchong .

[Tom_Wescott]

A few doctors spent a good amount of time sifting through the fire. Had there been bone (or heart) remnants, they would have found them. Same with the tea pot and anything else in the room.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

A potentially important finding, AP, for which many thanks.

I have scanned the census returns, but trying to find a specific "Rees" in Wales will be something of a challenge. A pity the newspaper didn't report her age, or her husband's for that matter, but I'll keep trying.

BTW, I find the idea that the Miller's Court fire was to provide hot water for an abortion slightly beyond the pale - or should that be "pail"? Fires can be used for a plethora of other purposes, of course. On the other hand, I'm surprised you haven't picked up on the presence of the zinc bath under Kelly's bed :)

Thanks once again.

[A.P. Wolf]

But maybe Tom they should have had a go at the flower pots?
Just leave it to Bond, 007.
The 'New York Herald', London Edition, 11 September 1889:

A reperusal of the circumstances of former atrocities of this nature only serves to confuse the reader's mind as to the possible origin of this last crime. It differs from the Whitechapel series in the facts that the head and lower limbs were amputated, and in the other fact that the hands were left undisturbed; but it resembles them in the infliction of the deep longitudinal cut along the lower half of the trunk. It will be remembered that last year, while the Whitechapel miscreant was in the full living of unchecked crime, a horribly mutilated human body was discovered in the basement storey of the building on the Embankment once intended for a national opera house. Here, too, the head and legs were missing, as in the case of the unfortunate woman found yesterday morning, but in this case the incomplete mutilation of the trunk had been completed in a fashion absolutely similar to that which marked the bodies of the Whitechapel victims. Nearly a month previously the right arm of a woman had been found floating in the Thames near Bridge, and several indications justified the belief that it formed part of the body found later on in the basement of the opera house. The case of the girl whose mutilated remains were enveloped in a fragment of under garment marked in black ink in a clear and clerkly hand with the name "L.E. Fisher," equally fails to offer any analogy to the other cases, as Dr. Bond, chief surgeon of the Metropolitan Police, declared death to have resulted from an operation intended to procure abortion; a motive which could not have determined any of the Whitechapel series, and certainly did not exist in the present instance, as the medical testimony declares this last victim never to have been pregnant. '

Now if I had a fast Aston Martin, and a much faster Martini, and an ejector seat that shot me fifty foot in the air I think, just, that I could get on the same level as 007 Bond.
Someone, somewhere, in 1888 and 1889 were botching abortions and slinging their victims in the streets or Thames.
That much is obvious.
And no I don't believe the police or doctors even bothered to investigate the room at Miller's Court in the way we would expect, because they already had their victim and looked no further.
Anyways this is moving away from the heart of this thread, the connection between a 17 year old Mary Jane Kelly in Swansea in 1880 and the abortionist family by the name of Rees in Swansea in 1880.
Stick with that.

[SirRobertAnderson]

A few doctors spent a good amount of time sifting through the fire. Had there been bone (or heart) remnants, they would have found them. Same with the tea pot and anything else in the room.
t

The fireplace was undoubtedly searched thoroughly.

The tea kettle, however, is an assumption, especially for residue.

And we do have the Cutbush connection to tea.

[A.P. Wolf]

Sam
I've been wary of that zinc bath almost since before I was born.

[Tom_Wescott]

Sir Robert,

It's absurd to suggest they noted the condition of the teapot, but didn't take a second to look inside of it when the victim's heart was missing. Of course they looked inside it. They tore the room apart.

AP,

You know how critical I am of Simon Wood's whole thing about there being a million items in the Kelly pic. Nevertheless, there's one thing that irks me, and MIGHT lend support to a PORTION of his idea, and that's Anderson's quote about a doctor finding a pipe and throwing it in the fireplace. It's always been assumed that Anderson had Coles (with the broken pipe) and Kelly confused. But if so, where did the 'throw it in the fireplace' come from? So, if Anderson was correct, ask yourself why a doctor would have need to pick up a pipe and why he'd feel moved to discard it. Only explanation I can think of is that it was somewhere on the bed with Kelly and was covered in grue.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. I'm also intrigued by Anderson's always-overlooked comment that the Goulston Street Graffiti resembled a suspect's handwriting, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Sir Robert,

It's absurd to suggest they noted the condition of the teapot, but didn't take a second to look inside of it when the victim's heart was missing. Of course they looked inside it. They tore the room apart.



Believe what you wish. I think it is likely they looked, but in the absence of a positive statement to that effect, I don't assume it.

Not to mention that the killer may have used the kettle in ways that didn't leave a noticeable residue. We're not talking CSI Whitechapel here.

It's important for one reason and one reason only: there was a raging fire in that room that night, and no one has yet come up with an explanation for why the killer wanted that.

Cooking and/or brewing are possible explanations for the inexplicable, especially if you believe that Jack may have indulged in cannibalism.

[Tom_Wescott]

Believe what you wish. I think it is likely they looked, but in the absence of a positive statement to that effect, I don't assume it.

Well, you should. These are the same people who opened up Eddowes' tin match box and found it 'empty'. I think they could manage to take a peak inside a teapot, don't you? And it's hardly their fault that the descriptive inventory of Kelly's room got lost to purloiners. I'm sorry, I don't buy into the idea that just because they were Victorian that they were dribbling imbeciles.

It's important for one reason and one reason only: there was a raging fire in that room that night, and no one has yet come up with an explanation for why the killer wanted that.

Are you kidding? I must have seen a few dozen different explanations by this point, including your cannibalism idea which has been around for years. Of course, despite your unwillingness to assume the obvious in the case of the teapot, you're quite ready to assume that the Ripper and not Kelly started the fire. I wonder why that is?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[SirRobertAnderson]

I'm sorry, I don't buy into the idea that just because they were Victorian that they were dribbling imbeciles.




Please be so kind as to cite the post where I have ever said the Victorians were imbeciles, drooling or otherwise, then we can discuss your other contentions.

[Tom_Wescott]

Please be so kind as to cite the post in which I stated that a post existed in which you specifically stated the Victorians were imbeciles, drooling or otherwise. When you're done with your game of semantics, I'll be anxious to read your thoughtful reply.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[How Brown]

Tom:

Actually,its not absurd to consider that the police didn't look closely inside the teapot. Not that they didn't,but its not like this is a good stash spot in the first place. Often times,things go uninvestigated,because someone expected the "other guy" to have checked it out. Passing the pot,so to speak...or passing the buck.

Lets remain on track on this thread and keep all options available and remarks germane.

On the point of Anderson ( the one from 1888,not 2007) remarking that the handwriting found on the Wentworth building was similar to a "suspect's"...one could easily dismiss that,since chalk writing and pen writing are virtually incomparable and Anderson was not an experienced graphologist. But for the sake of open discussion,lets keep it optional as well.

Thanks in advance.:pop2:

[A.P. Wolf]

Actually the idea of Mary Kelly as an abortionist would clear up a lot of points that have always picked away at my brain.
Like why did she have contained and private accommodation whilst all the other unfortunates had to rough it in the doss houses?
It would also explain why Kelly frequently had women visitors, and that they stayed overnight.
M'Carthy's largesse with Kelly's rent could be explained by his knowledge of her 'medical' practise, and on him taking a cut of the earnings.
It would also explain why Kelly and Barnett appeared to have income when neither were working; and could have been the very reason for their disagreement over women 'staying' in Kelly's room overnight.
But the best I think is that it gives a rational explanation for the fierce fire that burnt in the room that night... for we have had a clear demonstration from the Old Bailey case that it was entirely possible to dispose of the body of even a full term baby, over night in such a small domestic fireplace. One just had to ensure that the bones were removed and hidden afterwards, and one had indeed got away with murder.
Given Mary Jane Kelly's connection to a family of famous abortionists since she was a young girl of 17 in Swansea - where I would suggest she probably went to have an abortion herself - it is entirely possible that she herself was taught the unwholesome craft by her mentor Mary Jane Rees.
It is, I feel, an avenue well worthy of further exploration, for it could give some very credible ground to the almost incredible tale of Mary Kelly being seen alive on the morning following her supposed murder.
As incredible as that might seem.

[SirRobertAnderson]

M'Carthy's largesse with Kelly's rent could be explained by his knowledge of her 'medical' practise, and on him taking a cut of the earnings.

Very very interesting concept, A.P.

Well, we know how much McCarthy was charging for rent; do we have any idea what the going rates for a back alley abortion were ?

My initial thought would be that an abortionist could have afforded better housing than Miller's Court.

[Robert Linford]

AP, not too sure about this abortion business. Given that an abortionist can't advertise, she'll need to rely on word of mouth. We hear of no rumours touching on Kelly in this connection. Further, there were no tools of her trade found in the room.

Robert

[A.P. Wolf]

Agreed gentlemen
the idea of Mary Kelly being an abortionist is somewhat alien to my good self as well. However there does appear to be a linkage here, somewhere along the well-trodden line.
If one looks at the mysterious death of Eliza Schummacher in 1888, murdered by an unknown abortionist when she wasn't even pregnant; and then the 'Mysterious Death at Walthamstow' - a case I'm about to post - then it was not really unusual for London women in 1888 to die at the hands of abortionists... even when they were not pregnant.
My suggestion is that, based on the as yet gentle connection between Mary Jane Kelly, prostitute, and Mary Jane Rees, abortionist; and the fact that Mary Jane Kelly was supposedly murdered in November of 1888; and the fact that Mary Jane Rees was sentenced to ten years in December of 1888... are in fact facts too fat to ignore.
I should point out that the connection between Mary Jane Kelly and Mary Jane Rees was featured in several newspapers of the time.

[Tom_Wescott]

On the point of Anderson ( the one from 1888,not 2007) remarking that the handwriting found on the Wentworth building was similar to a "suspect's"...

Oh, I doubt it really did, but that's not the point. The point is that it was taken seriously and either a comparison was done, or one of the officers at the scene who saw it personally thought he recognized it as one of the people they were already investigating. Of course, Anderson may have just meant that it resembled the 'Dear Boss' letter, which one of the people present thought it did.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I went last night and looked up the Star article that AP mentioned. I feel like a fool now because that's a very popular report and a source for a lot of our info about Kelly. However, I don't recall anyone else discussing the 'Mrs. Rees' connection until AP isolated it here. How weird is that? Was this brought up in Chris Scott's book? If it were I feel even more foolish because I read that book through, enjoyed it, and continue to refer to it for sourcing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Was this brought up in Chris Scott's book?
It wasn't, Tom, and I don't recall Mrs Rees being mentioned elsewhere, so kudos to AP for homing in on her. (I still think the Kelly-as-abortionist idea is a tad beyond the zinc bath, though, Mr Wolf ;))

[SirRobertAnderson]

(I still think the Kelly-as-abortionist idea is a tad beyond the zinc bath, though, Mr Wolf ;))

I agree, but I laud folks daring to think outside the box.

Let's not forget Dew also saw her parading around as a prostitute.

[Nina Brown]

Tom,

Chris Scott did mention Mrs. Rees once on Casebook.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/20123.html
Posted by Chris Scott on March 15, 2005
"It appears from inquiries made at Carmarthen and Swansea, that after leaving the former place for the latter, Kelly, who was then only 17 years of age, entered the service of a Mrs. Rees, who stands committed to the next assizes on a charge of procuring abortion, and who is the daughter of a medical man formerly resident at Carmarthen."
This would indeed be a useful lead to follow, but sadly this rumour was quashed the very same day in a press account in the Cambria Daily Leader, which reads as follows:
“It is stated in the 'Western Mail' that the murdered woman Kelly was at one
time a servant with Mrs. Rees (daughter of the late Dr. Hopkins), in
Trafalgar Terrace, Swansea. We are asked to say that this is not true.”

Nina

[Robert Linford]

Gareth, I found a death entry for a Mary Jane F Rees :

Mary Jane F Rees
abt 1860
1901
Jul-Aug-Sep
Swansea
Glamorgan, West Glamorgan



Using the age to check back, there was a Mary Jane Florence Rees in prison in 1891, just as she should have been - but in prison in England!

RG12/556 Folio 140 Page 9


This could well be her in 1881. Penny Something Rd
RG11/5316
Folio 120 Page 7

[Tom_Wescott]

Nina,

Good to see you. Seems like forever since I've ran into you on the boards. I take it you no longer contribute to the Casebook?
Thanks for posting that from Chris. That inded puts a spin on it. But it seems that what's being denied is Kelly having worked for Mrs. Rees, not her having availed herself of the abortionist's services.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[A.P. Wolf]

Nicely done, Nina
but what makes me hesitate is the wording of the report:
'We have been asked to say...'
Whom by?
The family of Mrs Rees perhaps?
One must not forget that the 'Western Mail' of Cardiff was also the champion of 'Fairy Fay' - November 10th 1888 - who was but fairy dust.
I still believe that the fact that Mary Kelly was supposedly murdered in November of 1888, and then Mary Rees sentenced to ten years in December of 1888 for murder, to show a reflection of their previous knowledge of each other.

[Sam Flynn]

But it seems that what's being denied is Kelly having worked for Mrs. Rees, not her having availed herself of the abortionist's services.
It might also have been because the late Dr Hopkins' family objected to their daughter being identified with the Mrs Rees (abortionist) in question, Tom.

[Sam Flynn]

RG12/556 Folio 140 Page 9

This could well be her in 1881. Penny Something Rd
RG11/5316
Folio 120 Page 7
Rob,

Any chance you could point me to that specific record? It's a minefield trying to find a specific Mary Rees otherwise - and I can't pinpoint this lady on Ancestry.com. However, if I can decipher what that "Penysomething" really was I can search by street name.

[Robert Linford]

Hi Gareth

A search of all countries all censuses for Mary Jane Florence Rees will bring up the convict in Woking prison in 1891. A search of the 81 Welsh census for Mary Jane Rees born 1860 plus or minus 5 will bring up the only one such married to a John. Ancestry transcribe the address as Penydarren Rd.

Robert

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Robert,

That's Penydarren Road in Garth, Merthyr Tydfil, quite a distance (in those days) from Swansea, and this Mrs Rees seems to have been a Merthyr girl all her life. I don't think this is the same lady, unfortunately, but thanks for finding her nonetheless.

Plugging away!

[Nina Brown]

1881 census: Carmarthen St. Peter, Carmarthen, Wales
RG11/5397 Folio 110, Page 26
11 Quay Street
John Morgan Hopkins-head-66-Widowed-b.Fownehope, Hereford, England-Physician M.D.
Mary J.-daughter-unmarried-21-b.Llangadock, Carmarthen, Wales-no occupation
Barbara L.-daughter-unmarried-20-b.Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales-no occupation
Elizabeth A. Watkins-visitor-unmarried-22-b.Gloucester, England-no occupation
Sarah Jones-servant-18-b.Llangunnor, Carmarthen, Wales-general servant

Marriage
1885 March quarter in Swansea
Volume: 11A Page: 873
Mary Jane Hopkins & John Rees

It seems that if MJK was a servant, at age 17, in the household she would have been a servant for Dr. Hopkins not Mary. Or possibly a patient? This may be the reason that the paper retracted the article, so as not to tarnish the doctors name. However, the news report does state that MJK was in Swansea. We know that Mary Hopkins moved to Swansea sometime after the 1881 census. Did she move there alone or with her father? His death was recorded in Llanelly.

Death
1885 March Quarter in Llanelly
Volume:11A Page: 557
John Morgan Hopkins
Age: 72

Could Mary Hopkins/Rees possibly be the infamous cousin of Mary Jane Kelly?
Mary Jane Florence Hopkins/Rees moved from Carmarthen to Swansea
Mary Jane Kelly moved from Carmarthen or Carnarvon to Cardiff ?


Tom,
I still contribute to the Casebook by transcribing news articles.

Nina

[Sam Flynn]

Good find, Nina, however I fear that we will be left in the usual limbo when it comes to Mary Kelly. The problem with it is that I've counted thirteen Mary (Jane) Reeses in the Swansea area in the 1891 census, all about the same age as the abortionist. Whilst we know thanks to Rob that the abortionist was in prison in 1891, we can't tell whether any one of these thirteen other Marys weren't actually Doctor Hopkins' daughter! If one of them indeed were, then that would explain the apology and retraction printed in the newspaper. She, herself, might have complained.

It should be noted that the 1891 Woking Prison convict, who is undoubtedly the same Mary Jane Florence Rees named in the newspaper article as the abortionist, gives her place of birth as Llangennech, which is about 25 miles away from Llangadock, which is where the doctor's daughter was born.

Another difficulty arises from the fact that we don't even know if the Doctor's daughter married a man called John Rees either. In fact, there's another Mary, born in 1860 at Llangadock, Carmarthen living at 4, Caersalem Row, Llangyfelach, Swansea in 1891 - married to a labourer named David Morgans. I haven't been able to trace her maiden name, but it's possible that she could have been a Hopkins as well - it's a reasonably common name in South Wales.

All of these riddles are frustrating enough, and we haven't even touched on placing "Mary Kelly" in Swansea yet!

Grateful for your help in all this :)

[A.P. Wolf]

I thought this report from 'The Star', of the 10th October 1888, concerning the 'Somer's Town Murder' to contain perhaps the germ of an idea of what was going on in Mary Jane Kelly's room that night.
(Gratefully nicked from the Casebook press reports section!)


'A SOMERS TOWN MURDER.
MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF A FACTORY GIRL IN HER FRIEND'S HOUSE.
The Doctor Declares that Abortion was Procured - Her Sweetheart Protests his Innocence - The Coroner and Jury Both Complain of Perjury - Curious Mental Wanderings of the Girl.
Coroner Westcott held an adjourned inquest last evening which lasted four hours on Emma Wakefield, aged 20, a spinster, daughter of a cabdriver, of 17, Haverstock-road, who died on 29 Sept., at 60, Aldenham-street, Somers Town. The deceased, who was described as a good-looking, well-conducted girl, worked at Mr. Homan's, shell box manufactory, 93, Charrington-street, Somers Town, where she earned 9s. per week, and was engaged to be married to Thomas Price, a young man employed at Messrs. McCorquodale's printing works, Cardington-street. With the latter's married sister, Mrs. Burrow's, the deceased lodged for six weeks prior to her death during the absence of her mother in the country. On Sunday evening, the 23rd ult., after being out with her sweetheart an hour and a half, she returned to the house of Mrs. Burrows, 60, Aldenham-street, and retired to her bedroom ill. The next night she consulted Dr. Kennedy, who treated her for a severe cough and cold, but she gradually got worse, and expired on the following Saturday. A post-mortem examination revealed that the deceased had been enceinte, and Dr. Kennedy and Dr. D. R. Jones (the latter the medical officer of Mr. Homan's factory, who had suspected the girl's condition and ceased to be consulted by her), were agreed that

BLOOD POISONING FOLLOWING ABORTION
caused death, and that an instrument, which inflicted wounds, had been used. - Thomas Price said he had "kept company" with the deceased five years, and they were to be married next Whitsuntide. He earned £1 per week and helped to maintain his mother. He emphatically denied that he was responsible for the deceased's condition, and added that he was wholly unaware of it until after the post-mortem examination. He had no reason to suspect that she was on terms of intimacy with any other man. - Mrs. Burrows, whose husband, an ailing man, had died, as she said, from "shock" since the opening of the inquest, was in attendance upon the girl during her illness, as were Mrs. Price, witness's mother, and a Mrs. Pite, witness's cousin.

ALL DENIED ANY KNOWLEDGE
of the real cause of the girl's illness or of her previous condition. Mr. Homan said the deceased borrowed 10s. of him six weeks ago, but neither her mother, who returned home before her daughter's death, nor any of her friends were aware of this, or how she spent the money. - Mrs. Wakefield was asked by the Coroner whether her daughter made anything in the nature of a dying confession. She replied "Yes; she said an angel was waiting to receive her; that she was leaving the world

A PRUDENT, UPRIGHT GIRL,
that she was quitting this life without a fault upon her tongue, and that she was cut down in the midst of her bloom." Then she would sing hymns. "Oh, so sweetly," said the witness. - The Coroner: Did she allude to any persons? - Witness: Yes; she said, "Look at that woman in the corner, you liar, you liar! You deceived me. Go out of this room." Mrs. Price was in the corner. Then his daughter exclaimed, "Is there a man in the room? If so, let him get up and speak for himself and answer like a man." All this was shortly before she died. Mrs. Price deposed to accompanying the deceased, at the latter's request, to Dr. Kennedy's, on Monday night, 24 Sept., but her account of what was said on the occasion differed from that of the doctor's. Just before the deceased expired she mentioned the name of some person, but the witness did not remember it. - A Juror: Was it Price: - Witness: No, it was Johnson. - Mr. Homan explained that Mr. Johnson, his brother-in-law, who was a married man 50 years old, was the foreman of the department of his factory in which the deceased worked. He had been with witness 27 years. Mrs. Price added that Mr. Johnson called with Dr. Jones to see the deceased. After they had gone the deceased mentioned Mr. Johnson's name, and said,

"STAND UP AND FACE ME."
Mrs. Jane Pite's version of the language used was somewhat different. She stated that while the deceased was delirious she exclaimed, "Stand up, Mr. Johnson! Father, look at him! Mrs. Price, get out of the way." Then she turned to the wall and said, "Ah! I have got you!" Presently she began singing "Yes or no before I go." She sang beautifully. Witness did not regard her talk seriously, as she was evidently delirious and called witness "a liar" more than once. Other evidence showed that the police, who searched 60, Aldenham-street, immediately after the inquest, found nothing to explain the means of the girl's death. Her father, although he owned that Price and his daughter were often out until midnight, and he had to remonstrate with them in consequence, said he did not think Price "would hurt a hair of her head." The jury having deliberated in private found that the deceased died from the effects of blood poisoning following abortion, caused by the illegal use of instruments, and they were of opinion that some person or persons at present unknown were guilty of causing her death. They expressed their dissatisfaction with the evidence of some of the witnesses, and added that they attached no suspicion to Mr. Johnson. The Coroner: Your verdict is tantamount to one of wilful murder. I think perjury has been committed. '

[Sam Flynn]

I thought this report from 'The Star', of the 10th October 1888, concerning the 'Somer's Town Murder' to contain perhaps the germ of an idea of what was going on in Mary Jane Kelly's room that night.
Hi AP,

You mean what might have been going on, given very long odds. I can't quite follow how an abortion in Cardiff in July 1888 could have influenced the events at a murder scene in East London in November of that year. It's especially tricky to understand, since the accused in the former case were quite possibly being investigated by police, or even awaiting trial some 200 miles away, at about the same time that Mary Kelly was being killed.

Thanks for mining those newspaper reports, by the way, and for quoting your sources :)

[A.P. Wolf]

As I said Sam, I'm a bit of an adventurer and explorer myself.
The 'Somer's Town Murder' does show that in a dwelling where an abortion is carried out it does not imply that instruments or implements to carry out that abortion will be found... I think of Robert's earlier point and objection.
It also shows that a woman planning such an event will 'disappear', and then stay at a 'friend's' house for a few nights.
There is much to the murder of Mary Jane Kelly that picks at my soul, it just does not read right.
I'm not attempting to portray Mary Kelly as anything but the hapless victim of a hopeless murder, but in the smoke and mirrors I see something else.
Strange beasts.

[Sam Flynn]

As I said Sam, I'm a bit of an adventurer and explorer myself.
I'll drink to that, AP, old stick!

Far be it from me to nudge you from your perch alongside Nostradamus's tripod, lest out of the smoke some truth may on this occasion emerge. As the proprietor of Battersea Dogs' Home once said, "we need all the leads we can get" :)

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Sam
Maybe I should explain where I think I’m going here?
First off, there is various witness testimony showing that Mary Jane Kelly took in females from time to time, and usually for a few days. Much hype is booted about by various witness who claim that Mary was doing this out of the goodness of her heart as she did not like to see these ‘unfortunates’ freezing to death on the cold streets of Whitechapel.
Very laudable, but not at all true, for all the women she ‘took in’ already had their own lodgings in the immediate area, and returned to those lodgings immediately after their short sojourn at Mary’s place.
Joe the unemployed fish porter, or was he a coal porter? Anyways, good ol’ Joe appeared to take exception to Mary having other young ‘unfortunates’ staying at their shared lodgings overnight.
You can imagine him in the pub that night, with some mates.
‘You mean, Joe, that you’ve moved out of your lodgings with Mary because she insists that you, her and another woman share a bed together? ‘
Hey Joe! Where you going with that gun in your hand?
Smoking Joe, I don’t know.
I don’t do cozy and neat, and this is just too neat and sweet to be anything like a truth.
Second off, Mary Jane Rees, daughter of Dr. Hopkins, must have learnt her trade and craft off someone in possession of such knowledge. I would humbly suggest that the daughter, Mary Jane Hopkins, studied under her father, Dr Hopkins, who may well have carried out an abortion on Mary Jane Kelly in 1880; and then in December of 1888 when Mary Jane Kelly had been supposedly murdered in the most brutal circumstances, and Mary Jane Rees was on trial for her very life on charges of murder… the Hopkins were understandably nervous about any connecting material between the two events.
I do see that connection though.
Through the mists of time and brandy.

[SirRobertAnderson]

First off, there is various witness testimony showing that Mary Jane Kelly took in females from time to time, and usually for a few days. Much hype is booted about by various witness who claim that Mary was doing this out of the goodness of her heart as she did not like to see these ‘unfortunates’ freezing to death on the cold streets of Whitechapel.

Very laudable, but not at all true, for all the women she ‘took in’ already had their own lodgings in the immediate area, and returned to those lodgings immediately after their short sojourn at Mary’s place.

A question for you A.P.....

The Pearly Poll thread and your comments got me to thinking.

Something that would explain a few things would be if some of the 'unfortunates' were bisexual. Not hard at all to think PP was.....and if Kelly swung both ways we have an answer as to why she had overnight pajama parties with other women.

[A.P. Wolf]

I don't know Sir Robert, but my impression is that women were trying so hard to be humans in the LVP that they wouldn't have had the time to be lesbians.
Surely all that came with the welfare state and social security cheques after Britain lost the war?
Basically I'm struggling with the concept of Kelly as an abortionist, and am unwilling to chance my arm further than that.

[SirRobertAnderson]

I don't know Sir Robert, but my impression is that women were trying so hard to be humans in the LVP that they wouldn't have had the time to be lesbians.



In the present day it's not that uncommon for sex workers to be bisexual. (How Brown told me this in Baltimore, as he has done a lot of research into the profession. :smoker: ) I realize the danger of applying present day patterns of behavior to Victorian times.

I don't want to sidetrack your thread, just want to propose an alternate explanation for the overnights.

[How Brown]

(How Brown told me this in Baltimore, as he has done a lot of research into the profession. :smoker: ) -Lord Blabbermouth

If you think of it... in all sincerity,its not hard to see how women,those treated less than gentlemanly,putting it mildly...could cuddle with another female if that was missing with in their relationships with men back then. Women,ahem,know what women like better than a man does in a sexual relationship and sad to say,a lot of men were/are pretty indifferent to a woman's needs,especially if most of a man's sexual encounters involved grabbing the top of a wooden fence as part of the lovemaking.....but yeah,in my 10,000 times on the mound,I've seen a few switch hitters.

I kid,I kid...I meant just 2...not 10,000.:(

A.P. I,at least,caught the "coal porter" line.

And...you're right. Why hasn't anyone mentioned this before about what Barnett actually said ? He might have been thumbing his nose at a three-way,not some grumbling about "other girls" sharing the apartment. Maybe it was because Kelly,in her off-the-clock sex life preferred gettin' down with the down low for her own special needs. I never thought of that. Prostitutes don't kiss their clients...or so I have been,eh,told. Kelly might have got those kisses from misses as well as Joe...when he wasn't available.

Thanks A.P. !

[SirRobertAnderson]

And...you're right. Why hasn't anyone mentioned this before about what Barnett actually said ? He might have been thumbing his nose at a three-way,not some grumbling about "other girls" sharing the apartment. Maybe it was because Kelly,in her off-the-clock sex life preferred gettin' down with the down low for her own special needs. I never thought of that.

If there is a dark and twisted path to take, that's where I gravitate.

See, part of all this is that I am skeptical of comments made by paramours AFTER the murders that the deceased were not whoring while they were co-habitating. I don't believe Mary never sold herself when she was living with Barnett....I believe that he didn't want to say that she was, both for respect for the dead as well as the implications on his character.

So....I look askew at his statements, and he's saying he was angry other wimmins were staying over. Now, 99.9% of the whoring these ladies did DID NOT involve overnight stays....so why the night guests if she was subletting by the hour so to speak ?

A.P. thinks she may have been an abortionist, which is an interesting thought. He may be right.

But the easier explanation is she also had lady friends, and Barnett was pissed off by it.

[Tom_Wescott]

And...you're right. Why hasn't anyone mentioned this before about what Barnett actually said ? He might have been thumbing his nose at a three-way,not some grumbling about "other girls" sharing the apartment.

The notion that Kelly was gay/bi was discussed in Paley's book and long before. It is, of course, completely unsupported and contradicted by other information (her female friends noted she was quite 'fond' of another Joe, for instance). Oddly enough, they made Stride into a rug-muncher for From Hell, since Kelly had to be 'clean' as the femme fatale.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[How Brown]

Bob:

I'm like you too. I get the impression that in this field,we often overlook that these victims were humans first,women second...and we know that people live in situations which we give them "leeway" with in our perception as to how they may have been in reality. A.P. is,to me,a pioneer in advancing us all out of this narrowminded vision of the women,victims or otherwise .... as if they were completely helpless victims of the age..... without any abilities to make adjustments,adjustments that often went into areas we didn't consider out of respect.

I think that the concept that Kelly may have been an abortionist...or perhaps one who indulged in some girl on girl action merely make Kelly more human and not just that mutilated mass most associate her with.

[How Brown]

Why would her friends expose a vice or denigratory attribute to her after her death? Her being bisexual isn't proven or even demonstrated,thats true...but its not out of the realm of possibility.

We aren't talking about an age when open discussion about a lifestyle that would not enhance the memory of an individual ( A Ripper victim,in this case) would find a friend casually throwing out..."Yeah,she was into women too..."

Eddowes' old man was fuzzy about her activities too...but thats understood.

Just because the friends of Kelly didn't mention her ( and again,its not proven that she was....its just up for discussion...) being bisexual meant that those women would know.

[SirRobertAnderson]

We aren't talking about an age when open discussion about a lifestyle that would not enhance the memory of an individual ( A Ripper victim,in this case) would find a friend casually throwing out..."Yeah,she was into women too..."



My suspicion is that there was more 'deviant' behavior taking place in the pressure cooker that was the East End then history has recorded.

How - look at Pearly Poll for a moment: Any chance she was a dyke ? Absolutely.

[How Brown]

Bob:

"My suspicion is that there was more 'deviant' behavior taking place in the pressure cooker that was the East End then history has recorded."

Of course there was...and if this can be contradicted by anyone ,I'll toss out out my high heels. Ain't no suspicion to it.

Any dismissal of "what" the victims were not isn't any more productive than what they were. We simply need to keep these options open for discussion.

I hesitate to opine that Pearly Poll was anything....but leave the option open....much like the open toed size 12 Joan Crawford pumps I gave you in Baltimore. Payback to Lord Blabs......

[Tom_Wescott]

I would say there was more male on male buggery back then than there is today, but far less girl on girl. That's more prevalent now as it's become the 'hip' thing to be. Like I've always said, people are creatures of extremes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[jmenges]

According to the Queen, there was absolutely no lesbianism going on at all.

It is said that the reason why specifically male homosexuality was made illegal (I'm talking about the Labouchere Amendment) but lesbianism and female bisexuality remained legal, was because lawmakers did not want to inform women that lesbianism was an option.

JM

[SirRobertAnderson]

(I'm talking about the Labouchere Amendment)

You know, Labouchere is famous for having an old gambling system named after him. It's one of the most reknown 'old school' progressive wagering systems. Works quite well until....it doesn't.

http://www.online-casinos.com/beginnersguide/faq17_the_labouchere_system.asp

and a JSTOR article

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0035-9238%281980%29143%3A3%3C363%3AANOLS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-E&size=LARGE

[Sam Flynn]

Oddly enough, they made Stride into a rug-muncher for From Hell, since Kelly had to be 'clean' as the femme fatale.
If Kelly was the "femme fatale", would that make Pearly Poll the "butch vivante"? ;)

Back to this thread - and thanks, AP, for clearly explaining where you're coming from.

Isn't it the case that we know for certain of only one "unfortunate" coming under Kelly's wing - the one who precipitated Barnett's moving out? This seemingly isolated instance of altruism perhaps isn't too encouraging a basis from which to extrapolate much about Kelly's kindness or sexuality - still less that she was a backstreet abortionist.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Isn't it the case that we know for certain of only one "unfortunate" coming under Kelly's wing - the one who precipitated Barnett's moving out? This seemingly isolated instance of altruism perhaps isn't too encouraging a basis from which to extrapolate much about Kelly's kindness or sexuality - still less that she was a backstreet abortionist.

Funny you say that....cuz I was poking around last night and could also find only a reference to one overnight guest. I'm wondering if I was mistaken entirely or just haven't found the source that put the idea in my head in the first place.

[Robert Linford]

Hi Gareth

I don't know whether she was a prostitute, but there was also Maria Harvey. Still, I don't see Kelly as an abortionist. Particularly on the night of 8th-9th. If I went to see a doctor and his speech was slurred, I'd call back another time.

Robert

[A.P. Wolf]

Yes, there does appear to be some confusion about just what female guests Mary Kelly allowed into her rooms in the week preceeding her murder. Something I intend to look at.
I'd like to point out that I find the connective tissue between Mary Jane Kelly of Swansea in 1880, and then Mary Jane Lees of Swansea, abortionist, to be of abiding interest, especially since their paths crossed again so dramatically in the winter of 1888.
Chances of?
I see Mary Kelly as more of a 'go-between' than an actual abortionist, arranging a time and a place, and this would go a long way to explaining the sudden and dramatic appearance of the man that George Hutchinson described that night, a doctor on a mission of mercy?
Basically I'm just firing a few rubber bands at the sun; and I've just had three hours solid with a drunken duke, several large bottles of very expensive Calvados which took twenty years to mature and then twenty minutes to drink while we pondered what to do with the latest hotel he has bought, and about my daughter who won't marry him yet...
All is not well in Mary Kelly land. I know that much.

[Robert Linford]

Well AP. at the risk of sounding like Mr Dick, if I bought a hotel I would hold a chess tournament there.

I would make sure that every player but me had liberal supplies of Calvados. This is the only way I could win.

Robert

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Robert, I play chess but everytime I try to move my horse it goes sideways.
The hotel is on a cliff, very steep and very abrupt, with a very long way down, so I thought it might do for a Ripper conference.
Isn't that the plural for when a lot of clowns get together?

[R.J.Palmer]

Concerning the abortionists Mary and John Rees of Swansea, who allegedly had some connection Mary Kelly. This goes way back and might mean nothing, but its interesting to note that there was a John Rees, a porter at the Lock Hospital in London, which was for the treatment of venereal disease. He was from Wales, but it doesn't immediately look like the same bloke.

1881 England Census

Name: John Rees
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Tenbridge, Wales

Civil Parish: St Anne Soho
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address: 91 Dean St Lock Hospital

Occupation: Hospital Porter Army Pensioner

Registration district: Westminster
Sub-registration district: St Anne Soho

[A.P. Wolf]

Well done, RJP, you deserve the clap for that.

[A.P. Wolf]

I thank RJP for revitalising my interest in this long lost thread.
Three questions.
1) Does anyone know if John Rees, husband of Mary Rees, had only one arm?
2) Does anyone know anything about the Charlotte Street murder of 1882?
3) Does anyone know anything more about a certain Mary Thomas, 17 in 1881, who was working a brothel in Newport?

[Debra Arif]

Second off, Mary Jane Rees, daughter of Dr. Hopkins, must have learnt her trade and craft off someone in possession of such knowledge. I would humbly suggest that the daughter, Mary Jane Hopkins, studied under her father, Dr Hopkins, who may well have carried out an abortion on Mary Jane Kelly in 1880; and then in December of 1888 when Mary Jane Kelly had been supposedly murdered in the most brutal circumstances, and Mary Jane Rees was on trial for her very life on charges of murder… the Hopkins were understandably nervous about any connecting material between the two events.
I do see that connection though.
Through the mists of time and brandy.


Just going back to your thought on Dr Morgan Hopkins here AP, it was reported in the press that he was well known in the area as an abortionist , and that he had taught his daughter Mary Jane Rees, who assisted him at times. After his death she took on his role.
There are some interesting aspects to the reported Mary Jane Kelly link, there are a few different press stories, one of them being that one of the Hopkins/Rees family did visit London and meet up with MJK again at some point. (why has this tale got a ring of the 'Uncle Jack' story about it?!)

I think the story that was may have been disputed in the papers, that Nina mentioned in a previous post, was that Mrs Rees's husband had been having an affair with MJK while she was living with them. There is a denial about this, saying that he actually had an affair with her while living with his first wife. The story is all a bit of a mish mash when it comes to actual solid details though.
Other interesting things reported concerning this Rees story are the mentions that MJK was the daughter of a 'marine store supplier' and was born in Llanelly. I've had a brief look into this and come up with a couple of things I'm trying to follow up on.

[Sam Flynn]

Other interesting things reported concerning this Rees story are the mentions that MJK was the daughter of a 'marine store supplier' and was born in Llanelly.Hi Debs,

Hmmm... a "marine store supplier", eh? Rings a bell! As you may recall, I mentioned a Mary Kelly, daughter of Marine Store Dealer, in "another place" (i.e. Casebook). I post what I found then below, augmented by some more recent research:

1861 Census - Halket St (house number not given), Llandaf, Cardiff
Daniel Kelly (Head), Married, 35, Marine Store Dealer, b. Ireland
Mary (Wife), Married, 30, b. Ireland
Elizabeth (Daur), Single, 8, Scholar, b. Ireland
Margaret (Daur), Single, 7, Scholar, b. Ireland
Mary (Daur), Single, 6, Scholar, b. Ireland
Denis (Son), Single, 2, Scholar, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
Julia (Daur), Single, 7m, b. Llandaf, Cardiff

You'll note from the above that the head of the family is called Daniel and was a "Marine Store Dealer". So, not the foreman at ironworks that Mary mentioned, but perhaps by 1861 Mr Kelly senior had lost his job at the foundry. On the other hand, perhaps Kelly was romancing to hide a less-than-auspicious upbringing. This is particularly interesting when one considers that a “Marine Store Dealer” was a scrap metal merchant, an occupation particularly associated with “travellers” in the Late Victorian Period. From Barnett's Inquest testimony, we hear that “[Kelly] said she had one sister, who was respectable, who travelled from market place to market place”.

Halket St was a run-down area of the Canton district of Llandaf where huge numbers of immigrant Irish families settled from the mid-19th Century onwards. Interestingly, there was a family called either "Carthy" or "M'Carthy" living a few doors away from the Kellys in Halket St, Cardiff in the 1861 Census, although this is probably little more than a coincidence.

By 1871 the family seems to have hit hard times. It appears that the mother had died and father and children were split up:

1871 Census - Cardiff Union School
Mary Kelly, Inmate, 13, b. Liverpool
Julia Kelly, Inmate, 11, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
Bridget Kelly, Inmate, 8, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
Ann Kelly, Inmate, 6, b. Llandaf, Cardiff

The Union School was an establishment for paupers, for unruly children or for children of “unfit” parents. Built in 1861, an infectious disease isolation unit was later opened on the same site. It closed in 1903 and was “re-purposed” as Ely Lodge, intended to provide workhouse accommodation for adults, although it was never used to that end. The building still stands, and was featured in Griff Rhys-Jones' appearance on the BBC show “Who do you think you are?”. In that programme, it was revealed to Rhys-Jones that, after his great great grandfather's imprisonment for murder, his great grandmother was “taken in” by a Union School similar to the one in Cardiff, as her mother couldn't cope and/or was of dubious character herself.

Griff Rhys-Jones said in a newspaper interview: “I thought, poor woman, she probably died and her children were sent to orphanages. But they weren't orphanages. They were approved schools for children running around uncontrollably and refusing to go to school. For one reason or another she was a very bad and unsuitable parent and didn't manage to cope at all.” (The Mail on Sunday, 2nd September 2007.)

Note also that Mary's place of birth appears as "Liverpool", rather than "Ireland" as in the previous census. Perhaps the Census taker made an incorrect entry, or perhaps we really should be looking for an MJK who was born in Lancashire to a Daniel and Mary Kelly between 1855 and 1860? Alternatively, given the "Mrs Rees" story, perhaps it should be "Llanelli" ?!!! :)

Whatever, I'm assuming that this inmate of Cardiff Union School is the same Mary Kelly owing to the recurrence of the names Mary, Julia and Bridget (see later) and their rough ages. I cannot find this cluster of names anywhere else in the 1871 Wales Census that would account for their absence from the widower Dan Kelly's family, shown "Mary and Julia-less" in the same Census year:

1871 Census - 42, George St, Bedwellty
Dan Kelly (Boarder), Widow, 46, Dealer in Wares, b. Ireland
Denis Kelly (Boy), Single, 11, Labourer, b. Cardiff
Elizabeth Kelly (Boarder), Single, 18, Sempstress , b. Cardiff

(Note the "Bedwellty" connection - which seems to crop up quite often in connection with potential Kellys. All roads lead to Bedwellty, perhaps?)

By 1881 the family seem to have reunited in Halket St, only now they seem to have been joined by some relatives from Ireland, occupying the house next door. It seems very probable that this is the same Kelly clan, as Daniel and (his brother?) John both have the same exotic occupation. It looks like the matriarch, Elizabeth, has also uprooted and moved to Wales.

1881 Census - 38 Halket St, Llandaf, Cardiff
John Kelly (Head), Married, 45, Marine Store Dealer, b. Ireland
Mary (Wife), Married, 45, b. Ireland
Denis (Son), Single, 19, Labourer, b. Cardiff
John (Son), Single, 12, Scholar, b. Cardiff
Daniel (Son), Single, 11, Scholar, b. Cardiff

1881 Census - 39 Halket St, Llandaf, Cardiff
Elizabeth Kelly (Head), Widow, 84, Pauper , b. Cork, Ireland
Daniel Kelly (Son), Widow, 55, Marine Store Dealer, b. Cork, Ireland
Julia (Granddaughter), Single, 20, Marine Store Dealer, b. Cardiff
Bridget (Granddaughter), Single, 17, Domestic Servant, b. Cardiff

The same group of children's names crop up again, albeit split between the two households and with the addition of probably the same Bridget we saw at the poor school in 1871. The ages are close enough (allowing for "Census error") to suggest that we have the same family. However, you may note that we're missing Margaret, Elizabeth and - interestingly - Mary seems to have moved on as well. It's also interesting that we seem to have brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts and grandparents all mixed up, and living in adjacent houses. Recall again from Barnett's testimony that “After her husband's death deceased went to Cardiff to a cousin”.

I have discovered what happened to Denis Kelly, son of Daniel and, depending on which Census entry you believe, brother of Mary, who appears in the next Census. Given that he was apparently a jobbing labourer in 1881, and joined the army sometime thereafter, it'd be fascinating to know what caused his breakdown in the 10 years between then and this census entry:

1891 Census - Glamorgan District Asylum
Denis Kelly, Single, 28, Soldier (Lunatic) , b. Cardiff

[Debra Arif]

Hi Sam
Actually I do recall you posting these details now, I didn't pay attention to the marine store dealer part at the time though. Interesting stuff!
I'll have to have a good re-read of all your findings later on.
Thanks Sam :)

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks for all that, Debs and Sam.
You see folks should really listen to my alcoholic ravings sometimes.
They sort of make sense when you sober up.

[Debra Arif]

I'm not sure what newspaper reports have been posted before on the Kelly/Rees reported link, but here are a couple of transcriptions I have just done of some of the main bits of the story.

Here are some fuller details of the denial that Mary Jane Kelly had worked for Mary Jane Rees. It seems that although there was a denial as to that portion of the story, there was an admittance that Mr Rees, husband of Mary Jane Rees had known Kelly.

Cardiff Western Mail November 1888
Our Swansea reporter wrote on Monday night as follows:-
The rumour to which I gave publicity yesterday as to the deceased
woman Kelly's connection with Carmarthen and Swansea proved
to be in the main true. There is, however, one point in which I
was inadvertantly led into error, and as I might, in the opinion of some
(although I hardly think so myself), be calculated to prejudice the mind of the public against Mrs Rees, who was stated to be the mistress of the deceased, I gladly take this opportunity of correcting it. It appears that Mr. Rees had been married before he led the daughter of Dr. Hopkins to the altar. I had no knowledge of this fact. It was while he was living with his first wife that the woman Kelly was in his service. The present Mrs. Rees therefore, had no connection whatever in this way with the deceased.

This is what Mr. Rees had to say about Mary Jane Kelly. Here Dr. Hopkins is mentioned as knowing MJK's father too.

Mr Rees says that Kelly was born at Llanelly and not Limerick. her father
was a marine store dealer, and was a remarkably well informed man. He was well known throughout the whole district from Camarthen to Llanelly, and many people living there would be able to call him to mind. He was of an argumentative turn of mind; and Mr. Rees says that his discussions with the late Dr. Hopkins were often quite a treat to hear. His daughter Mary Jane, was a remarkably fine girl. She left his service and went to Swansea, where she remained for some time. She will probably be remembered at the Unity, which she used to frequent. She seemed to have gone on the loose at Swansea and to have removed to Cardiff from whence she eventually went to London. Mr Rees was in London about 6 months ago, and met the deceased. She ran across the street to him and addressed him in Welsh. There were little signs of dissipation upon her, and her appearance was calculated to create admiration on the part of anyone who saw her.

And this is a ittle on Dr. John Morgan Hopkins role as an abortionist (he was on trial for it in 1884) The mention of Mary Jane Rees advertising in the papers is interesting.

Cardiff Western Mail July 1888
She [Mary Jane Rees] is the daughter of the late Dr. Hopkins of Carmarthen, who previous to his death, two or three years ago had become notorious in the town for the shady kind of skill now attributed to his daughter. At the death of the doctor, Miss Hopkins-who became the wife of Mr. John Rees-removed to Swansea where she practiced very openly as a kind of ladies doctress or accoucher.She inserted advertisments in the papers, and , it is stated, did a verylarge business-the newspapers of course
having no proof of any conduct on her part.

Sorry if these have all been posted before but it's so hard to keep track on things with so many newspaper reports being posted.

[Debra Arif]

Here's one of Mary Jane Rees's adverts from the Cardiff western Mail April 23 1887

M J R daughter of late Dr. Hopkins M.D. Carmarthen, attends on lady patients- Goltre House Trafalgar Terrace Swansea



Wording said to be used by her and other abortionists advertising in the press also apparently went along the lines of:

"valuable information to ladies married or about to be married"
and requesting stamps for returning information.
Throughout the whole of 1888, one Cardiff woman was advertising twice weekly in the Bristol Mercury using a similar phrase, under the heading MEDICAL

[A.P. Wolf]

Nicely done, Debs, and I have certainly not come across those particular press reports before... they seem somehow to give Mary Jane Kelly her flesh back; and it is certainly all entirely plausible and a lot more realistic than other accounts of her life we have been spoon fed with.
What a shame that Mrs Rees was not tried at the actual Old Bailey, but rather at the Welsh version, otherwise we could have read the entire transcript of her trial.
Who knows? Mary Jane Kelly might have been called as a witness in the trial?
Hence her death?

[Debra Arif]

It's all very intriguing AP, and I'm glad you brought our attention to it all again. Maybe the story of MJK's connection to these people was written off by us all prematurely? The denial reports we previously had don't seem to have mentioned the connection to Mr. Rees and his first wife, only that MJK had not worked for Mary Jane Rees.
If there are fuller versions of the story that completely discount it and anyone knows of them, or any other reasons why the story can't be so, it would be good to see them on here.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks for the kind words, Debs.
At the time I posted the original details of the trial I did say that I found it very difficult to believe that two people whose paths crossed in 1880, Mary Jane and Mary Jane, would again cross in the winter of 1888 in such dramatic circumstance without there being some kind of connection, in 1888.

[A.P. Wolf]

Debs, this is one of the Hopkins' cases from the 'Western Mail', July 1884.
Note the 'Mary Evans'.
I followed this through and it appears that Hopkins had some local influence which helped him to escape the charges on a technicality aided by the judge.
It was a plain case of murder.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/evans1.jpg

[Debra Arif]

Thanks AP, I believe he was on the town council and was in line to be mayor at one point.

Just going back to the Llanelly Kelly who's father was a marine store dealer, this is the Abby Kelly story isn't it? I'll have to read the casebook archives to see how this panned out.

1861 census transcription details for: Upper Wern, Llanelly
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG09 Piece: 4112 Folio: 58 Page: 62


Reg. District: Llanelly Sub District: 2 Llanelly
Enum. District: 6 Ecclesiastical District:
Parish: Llanelly City/Municipal Borough:

Address: Upper Wern, Llanelly
County: Carmarthenshire


Name Relationship to
Head of H'hold Condition Sex Age Profession/Occupation,
Disability Where Born
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KELLY, Dennis Head Married M 39 Dealer In Marine Stores
Ireland
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KELLY, July Wife Married F 38 Dealer In Marine Stores
Ireland
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KELLY, Aby Daughter F 2
Llanelly
Carmarthenshire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KELLY, Margaret Daughter F 0 (6M)
Llanelly
Carmarthenshire

[A.P. Wolf]

Actually Debs, a Morgan Hopkins was appointed to be the 'guardian of paupers', seconded by a Mr Lees, which if it is him then gives a very plausible reckoning of girls like Mary Jane Kelly being placed in his house.
But Sam would need to check that this is the same individual.
What is interesting though is that some years after the dramatic court case, where he is obviously, and plainly guilty of murdering the young girl in 1884 in a botched abortion, our John Morgan Hopkins is a most welcome VIP guest at the funeral of the local archdeacon.

[Debra Arif]

It's all the same man AP
from the 1884 abortion case
At yesterdays inquiry a large amount of public interest was manifested. Dr Hopkins who, it may be mentioned, is a member of the Camarthen Town Council (and by right of seniority should have been mayor some years ago)
and a member of the Llanelly Board of Guardians, was present, accompanied by his solicitor...

Anyway, the Aby or Margaret Kelly connection to the victim MJK has been researched before by Neal Sheldon and Bob Hinton amongst others, and apparently all daughters of this family were accounted for, so it looks like there was no connection after all.

[Sam Flynn]

Just going back to the Llanelly Kelly who's father was a marine store dealer, this is the Abby Kelly story isn't it? I'll have to read the casebook archives to see how this panned out.

1861 census transcription details for: Upper Wern, Llanelly

KELLY, Dennis Head Married M 39 Dealer In Marine Stores Ireland

KELLY, July Wife Married F 38 Dealer In Marine Stores Ireland

KELLY, Aby Daughter F 2 Llanelly Carmarthenshire

KELLY, Margaret Daughter F 0 (6M) Llanelly Carmarthenshire
If the Marine Store Dealer of Llanelli was well-known in the neighbourhood as the Western Mail article claims, then his fame must have been short lived. He seems to have died before the 1871 Census was taken:

1871 Census Return for Lesendy, Borough Hamlet, Llanelli
Julia [Cobley crossed out] Kelly (Head), Widow, 40, b. Cork, Ireland
Ab Kelly (Daur), 12, b. Llanelli
Margaret (Daur), 9, b. Llanelli
Julia (Daur), 8, b. Llanelli

1881 Census Return for 42 Wern Road, Borough, Llanelli
Julia Kelly (Head), Widow, 60, b. Ireland
Abbey (Daur), Unmarried, 22, b. Llanelli
Margaret Brewer (Daur), 20, b. Llanelli

1891 Census Return for 42 Wern Road, Borough, Llanelli
Robert Cox (Head), 38, Foreman Coal Miner, b. Bristol, Bath
Julia Cox (Wife), 28, b. Llanelli
Charles (Son), 10, b. Llanelli
Emma (Daur), 8, b. Llanelli
Julia (Mother-in-Law), Widow, 65, b. Ireland, Cork

[Debra Arif]

Hi Sam
It makes no diference really, as that's obviously who they were talking about. Richard Nunweek made reference to the encounter with Mr Rees on casebook back in 2004 in relation to Aby Kelly, so it's a well known story that has been well researched by the looks of it.

[A.P. Wolf]

Chickens, hatch and counting, Debs.
If I see a connection then I'm afraid there probably is one.

[Sam Flynn]

Chickens, hatch and counting, Debs.
If I see a connection then I'm afraid there probably is one.
What I'm intrigued by is that "her father was a marine store dealer" bit. OK, we might dismiss the Llanelli Kelly family for various reasons, but what of the Cardiff-based Kelly, whose name was in fact Mary, and whose father had precisely the same occupation?

[Debra Arif]

Yeah but the trouble is then Sam, we are picking and choosing bits of the story...aren't we?
There's also a McCarthy family in Llanelly who were marine store dealers.

I wasn't sure how much of the research into Aby Kelly and her sisters had stemmed from this llanelly story or how much was just plucking them out independently by the researchers involved.
Richard Nunweek seems to have mentioned Mr. Rees but I can't tell if anyone else did.

[Debra Arif]

...although we are told she was named Mary Jane in the story...hmmmm, you could be right Sam.
...I keep spelling Llanelly differently to you, my guess is my version is the wrong one, you being a Welshman and all :)

[Sam Flynn]

...although we are told she was named Mary Jane in the story...hmmmm, you could be right Sam.Indeed. And there's that soldier brother of the Cardiff Kelly, who ends up a lunatic by 1891. Not to mention her cousin(s) living in a run-down area of Cardiff docklands. Where there's docks, there's dockers and sailors - and where there's dockers and sailors, there's plenty of opportunities for them wot wishes to lead "a bad life".
...I keep spelling Llanelly differently to you, my guess is my version is the wrong oneForce of habit, Debs - Llanelli is the Welsh spelling. It's also now the only official spelling, but "Llanelly" was for centuries perfectly acceptable, and there's no reason to apologise :)

[Debra Arif]

it seems well worth looking at Sam, even without the connection to the Llanelli story.

[Paul]

I haven't read all the foregoing, so forgve me if I am repeating what has already been said.

On 12 and 13 November 1888 the Swansea reporter of the Western Mail published a statement by the a Mr John Rees to the effect that when married to his first wife he had employed Mary Jane Kelly as a servant. Kelly's father had been a marine store dealer who was very friendly with a Carmarthen doctor named John Morgan Hopkins whose daughter, Mary Jane Florence, had become John Rees's second wife.

Now, an irrelevant sidebar is that in June 1888 Mary Jane Florence Rees had been charged with attempting to perform an illegal abortion and in December was found guilty and sentenced to 10 years in prison. John Rees was also tried, but found innocent.

Back to Mary Jane Kelly: according to John Rees, he'd employed Kelly when living in Llanelli, where Rees was known as 'John Rees the Stepney' - the Stepney was a hotel. He said that on leaving his employment Kelly had gone to Sansea, where she frequented the Unity Inn, and had gone from Swansea to Cardiff and then to London.

On 15 November the Western Mail published a letter from Mrs Jane Williams, the landlady of the Unity Inn, who said that nobody named Mary Jane Kelly had frequented her inn, although an Abigail Kelly had been an occasional patron. This Abigail Kelly had lived in Llanelli and had married a Scottish stonemason named Muir and emigratedto Kansas City.

On the same date, 15 November, The Llanelly and County Guardian reported that investigations had failed to associate Mary Jane Kelly with the town and suggested: 'No doubt the statement was made with reference to the Kelly family on the Wern, but all the girls are accountable for, two having left for America while the other lives with her husband near Cardiff.

The 1861 census shows that a Kelly family lived at 42 Wern Road, Llanelli. The father was a marine store dealer named Dennis. His wife was named Julia. One of his daughters, at that time aged only 2, was Abigail. In April 1881 Abigail Kelly married William Muir at St Mary's Catholic Church, Llanelli.

There can be little doubt that John Rees did not employ May Jane Kelly, but employed Abigail Kelly.

But...

In the Western Mail on 13 November John Rees stated that when in London some six months earlier he had met Kelly. She had run across the street to him and spoken to him in Welsh. Now, Abigail Kelly was in Kansas City, so, if John Rees was telling the truth, who did he meet in London?

One can speculate and, of course, the most exciting speculation is that Abigail Kelly also called herself Mary Jane Kelly and that she didn't emigrate to Kansas City. However, research in the Kansas City records might identify Abigail Muir and flesh out her life there, scotching the idea that she might be identified with Mary Jane.

[Debra Arif]

Thank you for filling in the details of the rest of the story, Paul.
The crucial piece we didn't have was the link made by the landlady between Abigail Kelly and the 'Mary Jane Kelly' being talked about.

[A.P. Wolf]

I don't know, Paul.
There are a couple of points you do not raise which I think should be.
The Lees/Hopkins connection still needs further fleshing out, as it appears that it was Lees who seconded Hopkins to his council position overseeing the paupers of the district.
I think it not correct to describe the 1888 High Court trial of Mrs Rees as a 'sidebar', more like a 'sidewinder' I reckon. It is well known that Mrs Lees was well known for aborting young girls who had got themselves into 'trouble'; and there is, and was, persistant speculation that Mary Jane Kelly got herself into 'trouble' while in Wales.
Then there is the young girl 'Mary Evans' who gives evidence at the trial, resident with the Lees. Could this be the same Mary Jane Evans who found herself in a local court in May of 1884 for 'concealing the birth of a male child'? And could it be the same Mary Evans who was in a local court four years earlier for exactly the same offence when her infant was found locked in a drawer? And could it be the same Mary Evans who appeared in court on charges of wounding in 1882?
Could Mary Jane Evans be Mary Jane Kelly?
And is it not true that Mr Lees was dismissed on a technicality?
I must read the case again.

[Paul]

Interesting avenues for investigation, A.P., but as far as the Kelly employed by Rees is concerned, I think its clear that Rees was describing Abigail Kelly and that she and all her sisters were accounted for (although research might reveal that that was not in fact the case). But if Rees was telling the truth about meting the girl in London, and if that girl was not Abigail Kelly, then she could have been some other 'Mary Jane' or 'Kelly' known to him and possibly could have been the 'Mary Jane Kelly.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Paul
do we know the reason for John Rees to be in London around July of 1888?
Another girl in 'trouble'?
From the case I posted earlier it seems that young girls were prepared to travel considerable distance to avail themselves of the services offered by the Rees household. Perhaps they did house calls as well?

[Debra Arif]

AP, how are you at deciphering scrawl?
What else was Dr John Morgan Hopkins in 1861 and 1871?

3842
??????practising as a physician and (graduate?) in ?????

3843
physician and ? proprietor

They did advertise in the papers, as I have said previously, this was a big business they had going apparently.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Debs3842
??????practising as a physician and (graduate?) in ?????
Card([?]igan?) Hospital Practising as a Physician and Graduate of the University of (Edinburgh?)
3843
physician and ? proprietor
Looks like "London", but I don't think so!

[Debra Arif]

I get graduate in something musical Sam!
I do see London though....wishfull thinking...bloody Noel Edmonds!

[Sam Flynn]

I get graduate in something musical Sam!Sorry, Debs - missed a bit. What I meant to write above was...


Card([?]igan?) Hospital Practising as a Physician and Graduate in Medicine of the University of (Edinburgh?)

[Robert Linford]

Could that be "Physician and Founder Proprietor"? Was the address a clinic?

[Debra Arif]

It wasn't his home address anyway Robert, so it could well be, thanks.
Sam, that makes sense now!

[A.P. Wolf]

Count the 'i''s, Debs.
I think it is London. If you take the 'Times' you get 2,575,208 hits for 'London', and 27,898 for 'Londen'. I can't work out the odds.
But if you take the 'Castle Garden' site which is dealing with the type of records we deal with here, you get 300 hits for 'London', as a family name, and then you get 40 hits for 'Londen'.
Is that one in every seven spelt it wrong?

[Debra Arif]

Just to add a little more to the Abby Kelly story.

As stated by Paul, Abby married a William Muir, this marriage was registered in the Jun qtr of 1881 in Llanelly (her name appears in the index as Abigael)

I checked ships passenger lists and came across this Abby Muir on a voyage to the USA from Liverpool on 26th August 1896. Her year of birth was c 1859, which fits with the Abby Kelly of Llanelly. She was married but her husband does not appear in the same records, so she may have been returning home to the USA after a visit to friends or family. Accompanying her were 3 children, David, William and James Muir. I cannot find a birth record in the UK for any of these children.
The name of the ship was the Teutonic.

3845

[Paul]

A friend of mine, now sadly deceased, named Bob Shaw, a science fiction writer of distinction who in one novel had a character called Warren Peace, and I'm afraid I read the whole book without getting the joke, once noticed that a German attendee at a science fiction convention was avoiding the very crowded bar by buying large gins and was getting two bottls of tonic each visit to the bar. Observing the two bottles of tonic he said, 'Now that Two-Tonic Efficiency.' Funny how some things stick in the mind.

[Big Jon]

I've started doing my own research into this. So far have managed to dig out some of the local newspaper reports. I've already posted some of them here: http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=44833&posted=1#post44833

One of the reports names a witness at the trial as being Mary Jane Collier, which with a similar(ish) sounding name may have caused some more confusion.

[Debra Arif]

Thanks Jon...my your clippings are very big!
I think that the reporter definitely got some information from John Rees regarding Abby Kelly, who must have worked for him at some point, he has the father as a marine store supplier thingy and manipualted a bit of press to highlight his victim suspect.
The Mary jane Collier is worth following up, as is AP's Mary Jane Evans...who. I think may also have been alive and well after 88 and still involved in the whole abortion business.

[Big Jon]

[quote=Debra A;44843]Thanks Jon...my your clippings are very big!
[quote]

Sorry about that, I've now reduced them!

[A.P. Wolf]

'ere it is, so I'm bumping it up.
A good read.

[Debra Arif]

Thanks for finding this again, AP.

Just to round off something about the subject of Aby Kelly(the girl eventually named in the John Rees story) and whether or not she was MJK.
Since finding the passenger record for an Abby Muir and her sons to the US, (Abby married William Muir in 1881) I also located Abby and William Muir and their children in the US census after 1888. I haven't the exact details to hand at the moment but this Abby Muir was the same same age as Abby Kelly, was born in Wales and was the wife of a William Muir and the names of their children matched the passenger record I found earlier.

[A.P. Wolf]

No worries, Debs.
It was this comment from Paul that still haunts me today:

'In the Western Mail on 13 November John Rees stated that when in London some six months earlier he had met Kelly. She had run across the street to him and spoken to him in Welsh. Now, Abigail Kelly was in Kansas City, so, if John Rees was telling the truth, who did he meet in London? '

[Debra Arif]

Well if the passenger list entry is Abby Kelly, which I think it is, it shows Abby did make at least one visit back to England, so there's the possibility she had visited from Kansas before I suppose and was seen in London by John Rees.
It would be too much of a coincidence for the details about Abby Kelly (her father's occupation, and that she frequented the Unity Inn, as Rees stated his employee Mary Kelly did) to match and not be Abby he was talking about wouldn't it?

[Peter Young]

What is interesting though is that some years after the dramatic court case, where he is obviously, and plainly guilty of murdering the young girl in 1884 in a botched abortion, our John Morgan Hopkins is a most welcome VIP guest at the funeral of the local archdeacon.
? Death Mar 1885 Llanelly Age 72 ?
Less than a year?
Just reread Jack the Myth in 4 1/2 hrs, still leaves the old bill in a very bad light..
Good read ne'ertheless AP, regards