Richard Nunweek's 39 Theory

[SirRobertAnderson]

This is a thread for the discussion of Richard Nunweek's 39 Theory .

[Joe Chetcuti]

Though the following web site is not to my liking, it does address how Satanists view the number 39. I've shown this web site before on the Casebook. You'll have to scroll down awhile before they speak about how the number 39 is viewed by some people.

http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1066.html

[Stan Russo]

39 is also an important number in Freemasonry. Might be more of a religious thing as opposed to merely a Satanic thing.

Stan

[SirRobertAnderson]

39 is also an important number in Freemasonry. Might be more of a religious thing as opposed to merely a Satanic thing.

Stan

Even more intriguing if it contains two major food groups at once !

What does '39' mean to Freemasons, Stan ?

[Stan Russo]

Robert,

39 holds some special significance for Freemasons, as it is 3 x 13, whereas both of those numbers hold some ritualistic significance. I am not sure exactly, but numerology is a major key within Freemasonry.

3 is the reference to the three murderers of the Hiram Abiff, the sacred original Mason, and 13 is something along the lines of the perfect number. 3 x 13 = 39.

I do not know Richard's theory, yet there are some similarities within the murders, the most prevalent, if you beleiev in numerology, is the Nichols and Chapman murder dates equaling 39.

I am not advocating that a Freemason committed the murders. Anyone who knows me know I disagree with that completely, but there are similarities that do need attention.

Stan

[Joe Chetcuti]

I too am not an advocate of the Royal Conspiracy/Free Mason approach to the Whitechapel mysteries.

The Jewish "near death" punishment of 39 lashes is well-known in Biblical studies. St. Paul received this punishment quite a few times. Christian oral tradition claims that Christ was scourged 39 times at the pillar, but since the Romans did not adhere to any particular number of lashes, this will remain just an oral tradition. But I can see why a Satanist would use the number 39 in terms of Christian mockery.

The most pertinent quote coming from the web site I mentioned was...

To a Satanist, the number 39 is a most powerful number, inherently containing much power because it is the multiplication of 13 (the number of Satanic rebellion against God) times 3 (the number of the Pagan Trinity.) Therefore, the number of people who died, 39, (in the Heaven's Gate mass suicide) represents an occult signature on this event.

I get the feeling that if we are to fully understand a Satanist's viewpoint of the number 39, it would be a matter of "it takes one to know one." So right from the start, I know my outlook on this subject will be limited to some extent.

Joe

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi joe,
I am enthusastic about this site many familiar faces are here, yours included of course, i followed your 39 theory with great intrest , and of course we E Mailed each other at the time,
My version as you are proberly aware has a different angle, the most fascinating point being i am not trying to force the jigsaw into shape . it simply is there[ not saying you did].
Numerology some may say.
Tomorrow i will put my entire case on this site for every one to comprehend, read it and argue the pros and cons, I of course am convinced that it has relevant meaning .
Regards Richard.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Numerology some may say.
Tomorrow i will put my entire case on this site for every one to comprehend, read it and argue the pros and cons, I of course am convinced that it has relevant meaning .


Looking forward to it, and to the spirited debate that will no doubt ensue !

[Tom_Wescott]

Liz Stride was found next to #40 Berner Street. #39 didn't exist as a house because of the Board School across the street. Schwartz said his man was pulling Stride toward the street. Was he attempting to take her to where #39 would have been? Just having fun here.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

3 is the reference to the three murderers of the Hiram Abiff, the sacred original Mason, and 13 is something along the lines of the perfect number. 3 x 13 = 39.

Of course, Mary Kelly was killed at 13 Millers Court, 26 Dorset Street. 13 + 26 = 39. Yeesh, I shouldn't be posting this stuff, at least under my own name.

Yours truly,

Dan Norder

[Richard Nunweek]

Hello all,
Rather then list all of the theory at once, i shall be keeping some powder dry.
To start with the dates of the murders .
Polly Nichols..31st of the 8th month=39
Annie Chapman murdered on the 8th day 31+8=39
The double event occured on the 30th day of the 9th month=39
Kelly was killed on the 9th day 30+9=39
Not counting the day of Eddowes/Strides murders, or the day of Kellys, 39 days elapsed.
Simple first post, but it does get more puzzling.
Richard.

[Tom_Wescott]

Annie Chapman murdered on the 8th day 31+8=39
Kelly was killed on the 9th day 30+9=39

Where do the 30 and 31 come from?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi Tom,
Polly was killed on the 31st the next murder [ Chapman] on the 8th=39
Eddowes /Stride on the 30th the next murder [ Kelly] on the 9th.
Richard.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks, Richard. What did you think of my Berner Street idea?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi Tom,
Absolutely nothing wrong with your Berner street observation, infact quite plausable, however do i sense a hint of mickey taking rearing its head [already] at my expense.
I expect a certain amount of rejection, but also a snippit of respect.
No disrepect Tom, just reading through the lines.
Richard.

[Tom_Wescott]

Richard,

Here in the states, a mickey is a date rape drug, so I'll assume that's not what you mean. With a theory such as yours you'll have to expect some mickey taking, but that's not what I've been giving you. Just getting into the spirit of the idea and taking a rare opportunity to use Dan Norder's name in a post. No offense intended.
Was the 13 Millers Court, 26 Dorset Street idea already a part of your repetoire?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Tom,
Polly was killed on the 31st the next murder [ Chapman] on the 8th=39
Eddowes /Stride on the 30th the next murder [ Kelly] on the 9th.
Hi Richard,

Intriguing stuff, but aren't you using different criteria for each? I mean, if you take {month + day} as the rule, then we get

Nichols = {8 + 31} = 39
Chapman = {9 + 8} = 17
Double E = {9 + 30} = 39
Kelly = {11 + 9} = 20

At least there (might be) two 39s there, I grant you, although, shouldn't we multiply the Double Event by two to give 78? However, what about the 29th October (10 + 29 = 39) or the 28th November for that matter?

On the other hand, if you take elapsed days between murders into account, I believe we get

Nichols = 0
Chapman = 8
Double E = 22 (or 44 if you like)
Kelly = 40 (or "minus 4", I suppose)

...no discernible pattern there, unless it's based on even numbers. Problem is, in order to make your "39" fit, we're forced to mix and match the "rule" for {months + days} with the "rule" for elapsed days when it suits us, and that's a bit dodgy isn't it?

I'm yet to be convinced :)

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi Tom.
Sorry my friend, no offense taken, and i do understand why you signed off as Dan N.
You are correct in assuming that the 26 Dorset street, Room 13 is a segment of the theory.
Simply because it blends in with the inhabitants of that room one Joe Barnett and Mjk,
Barnett moved in with Mary on the 9th day of a month[9th april 87] and moved out [ albeit different accomodation] on the 30th of a month.
He moved out on the 30th and Mjk was killed on the 9th.
The number 39 was mentioned in two Ripper related letters , which i will discuss at a later date, it also has relevance to one Joe Barnett. as 39/41 commercial street housed not only his ex rival for marys affections one Joe Fleming, but also his brother Dan.
There is also a extreme possibility that 39 dorset street at the time of the murders was a coal merchants, and according to the Times November 10th 88, kelly moved in with a coal porter named Kelly[ reference McCarthy] who turned out to be Barnett[ alias].
Just another snippit, and i am still keeping the powder dry...
Regards Richard.

[Richard Nunweek]

Hello Sam,
I believe you have yet to grasp my theory which is not that complicated, once you understand my pattern.
Forget the month of october [ no murders occured]
Just take the 31st of the 8th month
the 30th of the 9th month
Both equall 39.
then take the 8th day [ Chapman] and add it to the previous Nichols[ 31] =39
The take Eddowes/Stride 30th. and add it to Kellys 9th=39.
Hope that reads clearer.
Richard,

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Sam,
I believe you have yet to grasp my theory which is not that complicated, once you understand my pattern.
Forget the month of october
Ah, but I can't though ;) There should have been a murder on the 29th October, at least, if not on the 28th November and/or 27th December.

[Tom_Wescott]

I don't know if it means anything, but Sir Robert Anderson's London address in 1888 when he took office was 39 Linden Gardens, W. Berner Street witness James Brown's address was given variously as 35 Fairclough St. and 39 Fairclough St.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi,
I will now continue the 'Thirty nine theory'
When i first came across this idea many years ago, i first noticed the date pattern, then without trying hard to force the puzzle i noticed many more weird coincedences?.
Martha Tabram, aged 39years -stabbed 39times.
The victims names ie.Tabram,Nichols, chapman, long liz, eddowes, kelly, when the letters are added up form 39.
[Stride was known as Long Liz locally]
Barnet moved out of kellys room on the 30th, and she was killed on the 9th=39
Barnet moved in with Mjk on the 9th day of a month[ april 87] and he moved out on the 30th[ oct30 1888]=39
There are two letters mentiong the number 39, one from 39 cutler street, the other addressed to Hanbury street from a number 39 address[ details when i find them]
The recent finding that the Victoria mens home is addressed 39/41 commercial road that numbering shown in a photograph by the main entrance.
And to cap it all Mjk lived at room 13 , 26 Dorset street =39
All of the above could of course be just coincedence, or it could have some bearing in the killers mind,
I am trying to ascertain if 39 Dorset street was a coal merchants during the 1888s it was on the next census according to Chris Scott, that would be intresting as Mccarthy describes Barnet as Kelly a coal porter on first occupying the room.
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Nunners,
All of the above could of course be just coincedence, or it could have some bearing in the killers mind
Unless he was an exceptionally brilliant mathematician, I doubt whether the killer's mind could have worked out all those permutations. Also, I doubt whether he'd have agonised over whether he should commit a murder if the sums didn't work out, even assuming he knew his victims' names and addresses.

Even then, he'd have to have known precisely how to spell Tabram ("Come again? Never heard that before"), Nichols ("Is that with one or two L's?") and Eddowes ("How do you spell that?" - E... d... d... o... w... e... s" - "Thank you. Now die, scum!"). Not to mention that if he chose "Long Liz" to suit his equations, why not "Long Liz Stride", "Liz Stride", "Elizabeth Stride", "Elisabeth Stride" or plain "Liz". If he was allowed to use nicknames, why not "Polly", "Dark Annie", "Mother Gum", "Chick" or "Fair Emma"?

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi Sam,
I have never stated that this is a theory that is foolproof, it was just originally a collection of dates and oddities, that had connections to the ripper case.
Your points are valid however, although through the eyes of a murderer all of us [ hopefully] will never experience.
Tonque in cheek, but i still have some doubts in dismissing all of the points i have made.
Richard.

[SirRobertAnderson]

I have never stated that this is a theory that is foolproof, it was just originally a collection of dates and oddities, that had connections to the ripper case.


Hi Richard - is it fair to presume that for your theory to have validity, one has to believe the murderer knew all the victims beforehand ?

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi Sir Robert,
It is very unlikely that the killer knew all of the victims before the series , ie, by name ,it is proberly safe to say that he may not have known that Tabram was 39 years old.
However it is a fact that 39 wounds were inflicted upon the latter, and it is a fact that the dates of the killings formed a pattern which involve that number, and it is a fact that the number does have significance to a certain modern suspect that being Joseph Barnett going by points i have already made.
The most strange aspect of this case is the fact that MJK was killed on the very bed she experienced the nightmare that she was being murdered, 'Dreams do come true Mary Kelly..?
I rest my case . i believe some significance derives around that number, and it stems from the killers twisted mind.
Richard.

[Adam Went]

Hi all,

This is certainly a very interesting and different theory, Richard, so you deserve to be congratulated on opening up some more possibilities. Unfortunately though, I don't see the 39 theory as being very plausible.

Aside from what's already been mentioned, that it's extremely unlikely that the killer was smart enough to be able to work all of these details for each of his victims, it must be nothing more than coincidences.

To compare the 39 theory with something slightly similar, I'm sure you would all know about the supposed hidden codes in the bible, and how by using different formulas and spacing in the letters or whatever, you can find that there are predictions of future events in the bible. Well, on that same train of thought, I watched a show recently (which admittedly is a comedy show, but it also has a serious aspect to it) called John Safran VS. God.
In this episode, they were interviewing an actual Professor who's been involved in 'decoding' the bible.
Just to be random, they decided to test the theory out - they fed through the lyrics to Vanilla Ice's song Ice Ice Baby into a computer. Then, using the exact same formula and program which was used to discover the codes within the bible, they found that some predictions of events could be found even within the lyrics of that rap song. It was funny but interesting at the same time. A similar sort of thing was done with Moby Dick, with the same results.

My point in all of that is that the 39 theory is interesting and would be an exciting breakthrough if it was true, but like the bible codes, it's almost certainly nothing more than coincidence. You could probably pick out any random number between 1 and 100 (apart from 39 obviously) and if you looked hard enough, you'd find plenty of Ripper references to that number as well.

Aside from all of that, what if Jack was unable to continue the pattern? What if he heard someone approaching the spot he'd killed Martha Tabram and he couldn't stab her 39 times? What if he was unable to kill his victims on the night he'd planned?
Question marks still remain over the likelihood of Tabram, Stride and Kelly as Ripper victims.
If any of those things above changed, it would throw the 39 theory completely out of whack.

Again, it's an interesting theory, but IMO, unfortunately, that's as far as it goes.

Cheers,
Adam. :)

[Sam Flynn]

What if he heard someone approaching the spot he'd killed Martha Tabram and he couldn't stab her 39 times?
...or, for that matter, that Tabram's murderer was a real number-obsessed lunatic, who was freaked by approaching footsteps and abandoned his task before he could reach (say) 50 stabs? Or a number-obsessed lunatic who mis-counted when all he wanted to inflict was 35 wounds?

Come to think of it, what if Dr Killeen had mis-counted them in the first place?

[How Brown]

Come to think of it, what if Dr Killeen had mis-counted them in the first place?---Sam The Man

Yes sir..that thought has crossed my mind before.

I've seen comments made about Killeen before which mentioned inexperience and stuff like that.....but IF he did count them,he undoubtedly had to clean the torso to do so,which shows more concern for that task at hand than those who might think otherwise.

The "thought that crossed my mind " before, Sam....was some of the wounds were not counted correctly and there may indeed have been more....if some of the wounds overlapped each other. In other words,more thrusts with the knife than previously considered,yet the same number of visible wounds ( or more or less ) than 39.

[Sam Flynn]

In other words,more thrusts with the knife than previously considered,yet the same number of visible wounds ( or more or less ) than 39.
Another possibility, How, and one which I'm happy to say has crossed my mind too :)

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi Guys,
The Thirty nine Theory of course opens a wide opinion debate, which was expected as soon as i introduced it.
However the medical reports on Tabram indicate 39 puncture wounds , 38 whivh were slight punctures and could have been inflicted by a pen-knive, the other proberly loss of life..
Strange as it may seem some killers refered to as Serial, actually conduct their murders through a strange code of practise, which has relevance and a understanding to their mentality.
Richard.

[Natalie Severn]

This is a thread for the discussion of Richard Nunweek's 39 Theory .

I know........bless him:happy:

[How Brown]

Excuse me Richard...

When you mention the "38 puncture wounds" that appeared on Mrs.Tabram....and call them "slight"...

....if they had been "slight", I just wonder why she sat there and absorbed the 38 wounds until the coup de grace.

I'm sure that at least a few of these 38 wounds had to incapacitate her....unless....

.....unless the blow that everyone thinks was the final blow came first and the 38 or so other punctures,stabs...came afterwards.

See what I mean,Richard? If the killer stabbed her 38 times,why no outcry,no attempt to flee. I know of many occasions where people have been stabbed multiple times and not slightly either....and they fought like hell to get out of harms way.

But not Tabram...apparently.

What do you think?

[Richard Nunweek]

Hi,
Must follow on from the previous post[how] .
I am not suggesting that Tabrams Killer started stabbing the poor woman with a short bladed knife such as a pen knife some thirty eight times in a hope that she wouldnt cry out.
He obviously would have introduced her death proberly by a massive puncture to the heart.
The main objection to the infamous theory is why would our killer go to all this trouble.
Answer. We better find a way to ask him...
The fact is Thirty nine stab wounds was recorded, along with every other point i have already made regarding the dates which followed, and other pointers to mayby the perpretator of these cimes.
Its a intresting theory, and i have never claimed it otherwise but that, we simply have to look at every angle to attempt to find any key that might fit that elusive door we are all after,
Regards Richard.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Excuse me Richard...


.....unless the blow that everyone thinks was the final blow came first and the 38 or so other punctures,stabs...came afterwards.


File under 'a mind is a terrible thing to baste' but for the life of me I can't remember which Ripper mag just had an article postulating that Tabram was subject to 'rum fits' . I.e. she would pass out if she didn't have enough booze in her system. So in that scenario, she passed out BEFORE Jack went to town on her.

A prediction model for identifying alcohol withdrawal seizures

American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse, Feb, 1994 by W. Alexander Morton, Lyle K. Laird, Douglas F. Crane, Nilufar Partovi, Louise H. Frye



INTRODUCTION

The relationship between alcohol use and the occurrence of seizures has been well established (1-4). However, the neuropathogenesis of alcohol seizures has remained uncertain (1-4). These seizures have also been known as "rum fits" or "alcoholic epilepsy." "Rum fits" have been described as seizures which begin in short series on withdrawal of alcohol after a period of chronic intoxication.

[How Brown]

Bob:

That article was in the WS1888 Journal,by Bill Beadle...two issues ago.

I'm not arguing the number of thrusts ( 39 or 500..same difference..) but just wondering now which came first...the "minor" 38 or the "major" one.

I question it for two reasons...

1. If anyone was stabbed several times,such as Tabram was in the "38 first" scenario....and she didn't cry out or scramble to get out of there...something seems wrong.

OR

2. If she went into a "rum fit"...and was in what is comparable to an epileptic seizure...maybe that would explain her lack of movement.

It also may have angered her killer ( whomever...Ripper or otherwise ) because he might have figured on a fast one and then Martha went spastic on him.

[ferret]

:jaw: I know........bless him:happy: