Has Nats found Astrakhan Man ???

[SirRobertAnderson]

Originally Posted by Natalie Severn on the Casebook, reposted here by request. Thanks Nats !! It's a great find. :clap2:

In Fenian Fire there is a description of the man known as the Head Of The Jubilee Plot otherwise known as Frank Millen,Brigadier General of Artillery Francis Frederick[1831-1889].
This man,an Irish Nationalist,correspondent for The New York Herald Tribune was also sent by Alexander Sullivan-the chief of Clan-na-Gael to form an alliance with Paris Fenian exiles in summer 1887.
He was named as head of the Jubilee Plot of 1887.Testified at the Special Commission Oct/Nov 1888.


Here is his description:
Millen: Description
Age 50-55,height 5ft 8ins

visage: RED BLOTCHY FACE as if from excessive drinking-large nose
hair wavy,brown turning grey,moustache white ,no whiskers.
Very slight build,
dressed:
DARK Clothes,DARK overcoat with ASTRAKHAN COLLAR AND CUFFS-hard felt hat.
Wears SWORD SCARF PIN-has IRISH HARP and SHAMROCK on LOCKET and WATCH CHAIN.Has with him dark brown portmanteau--etc
see page 237 Fenian Fire.


Now Macnaghten is reported, by one Douglas Browne who apparently saw Official Scotland Yard Information,as having identified the RIPPER "with the leader of a plot to assassinate Mr Balfour at the Irish Office"
I quote from Macnaghten"s autobiography "Days of My Years":I incline to the belief that the individual who held London in terror resided with his own people;that he absented himself from home at certain times, and that he committed suicide on or about November 10th 1888,AFTER HE HAD KNOCKED OUT A COMMISSIONER OF POLICE AND VERY NEARLY SETTLED THE HASH OF ONE OF HER MAJESTY"S PRINCIPAL SECRETARIES OF STATE."

Now Warren,the Chief Commissioner of Police,resigned [was knocked out by the ripper case and other matters]on November 10 1888 and Matthews the Home Secretary was pilloried for failing to catch the Whitechapel killer[his hash was nearly settled for this failure?]

Maybe we have at last found Mr Astrakhan- the leader of the Jubillee Plot-a dynamitard and almost certainly the leader of the plot to assassinate Mr Balfour at the Irish Office!
Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

Well whether I may have found the Mr Astrakhan of George Hutchinson fame or not there seems to be a place for some discussion about whether or not there was a link between what was going on in the rest of London and particularly the East End and the Whitechapel murders.
So first a little of the background:
It has always intrigued me that the political backdrop to the murders was so extraordinary-For the police concerned there had been trouble with striking dockers,gas workers,Match girls,radical Jewish anarchists,free-thinkers,socialists but above all perhaps was the preoccupation of James Monro,Robert Anderson and John Littlechild with "The Irish Question".

On the very first day Robert Anderson took office,as head of CID and the Irish Special Branch ,Polly Nichols was found murdered in Whitechapel.Eight days later Annie Chapman"s body was found in Hanbury Street and Anderson had gone on sick leave abroad.On Sunday September 30th he was urgently recalled as two more women had been found dead.

Now Anderson had been a very busy man for some years as well as during the Autumn of Terror, and ,alongside Monro had been plotting how to deal with the Irish Question which was perceived by Tories and Liberals alike as a great threat to Britains Interests.The Irish Revolutionary Brotherhood had been founded in Dublin in 1858 and the Fenian Brotherhood had been founded in New York .In 1863 there was Fenian recruitment within the union and confederate armies and General Francis Millen joined the Fenian Brotherhood.This was the first Gen Millen had been heard of.But all was not quite as it seemed because actually in 1866 General Millen was to offer his services as an informer to the British Consul in New York and he apparently was in British pay throughout his long career.
Hence he was well able to afford the astrakhan collar and cuffs, the flamboyant seal and watch chain and the hard felt hat......that we see him sporting in the above description.

Natalie

to be continued

[A.P. Wolf]

Natalie, I think this a sterling find and my congratulations to you for all your hard work in this regard.
However - and it wouldn't be me if there wasn't a 'however' involved somewhere - is it not true to suggest that 'F.M.' - as he was known - was actually in New York at the time of Mary Kelly's murder?
I'm thinking of a series of telegraphs between London and New York, addressed to 'Assert' in London, where FM is offering to come to London to give evidence on three day's notice and a payment of £5,000... and my reading of those telegraphs do suggest that FM may well have been in New York on the night concerned.
I might be wrong though.

[R.J.Palmer]

No, you're not wrong. Millen was in NYC, and was contacted there on Nov. 21st by ex-Inspector Thomson--only 12 days after Lord Mayor's Day. He was in very ill health and died the following April. But I applaud Natalie for realizing that the "Balfour" man is the suspect that Anderson has tried to suppress. Certain Ripperologist are dead set on suppressing him, too; including a few brandy drinkers. Just wait and see.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi AP,
Thanks for your reply here.Yes,Ash made the same point but really no one quite knows whether or not he was in New York on November 9th.It took 5 days only to get to New York by steamer and he could have been in England during the Special Commission at which it was hoped he would give evidence on behalf of The Times newspaper.He could have been lying low in England pondering whether or not to do it,or he could have been lying low in New York or he could have been on the move.

He appears to have worked quite a bit with Jenkinson.But Jenkinson appears eventually to have been won over to the Parnell/Home Rule cause.Its just possible that Millen too was persuaded of its worthiness-hence his prevarication in testifying[lying] for £10,000 for The Times,against Parnell---

Really AP I make no claims.Its intriguing and it may eventually be possible to reveal a pro or anti Fenian link with the girl from Limerick.I dont know yet!
Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

No worries Nats, as I said I think you are doing wonderful work with regard to the Fenians, who I freely admit confuse the hell out of me; and yes, the dating could I suppose just allow FM to have been in London on the night of Mary Kelly's murder.
Just.
Tumblety was wiser than most and he knew that by taking the steamer from Le Havre he could actually shave two days off the normal transatlantic crossing time of 10 days. The French were faster in 1888, it must have been the absinthe.
If you like I can post the telgraphic messages from 1888.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks again AP yes it would be helpful to have the messages. Millen is somewhat difficult to read at times.You are not quite sure whether or when he was working for the British Govt or for the Fenians side ---He was given a patriots funeral
but his coffin was disinterred in Woodlawn cemetary and reinterred with masonic ritual in a better plot!
He seems to have had his cap set at Limerick at one time. In 1878 he had planned to cross the Atlantic and sail up the Shannon and seize the city of Limerick with a fleet of piratical American ships.
Anyway a very weird bloke whose left hand probably had no idea what the right was doing---Ah! he may have been ambidextrous!
Natalie
ps you have become very competent at posting all these things-I remember when you sent them through Robert!

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Natalie
it was the new laptop the Duke bunged my way that did the trick for posting images.
The report is from 'The Daily Inter Ocean', March 18th 1890; it might fail to load as it is a large and hefty image, but if so, perhaps Robert might attach it, as he is much better at tickling these naughty images that won't do as they are told!

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/fm1.jpg

[Natalie Severn]

Can"t access them AP but thanks and will await Robert!
Natalie

HAVE JUST READ THEM-BRILLIANT FIND AP!!!!Patrick Sheridan was suspected of being one of the directors of the Phoenix Park Assassinations.

[Natalie Severn]

So this gentleman,of the astrakhan collar and cuffs aka Gen Millen was from 1866 an informer to the British Consul in New York and a member of the Fenian Brotherhood.

Now for a brief foray into the chronology of some of the major events connected to the Irish question [all the chronology itself presented here being a precis of that found in Fenian Fire by Christy Campbell]:

Other well known "informers" working for the British were Thomas Billis Beach recruited in 1866, Beach posed as a Sullivan ultra-loyalist but was controlled by Robert Anderson throughout
and General Charles Carroll- Tevis who was recruited to the Foreign Office senate wing in 1867.

In 1867 Clan-na-Gael was founded in New York.

1875 Charles Stewart Parnell elected to Westminster as "Home Rule" member for Meath.

During this time a man named O"Donovan ROSSA-a Cork born journalist revolutionary and militant of militants was the leading light in the clan.Rossa was given a hero"s funeral in Dublin in 1915.

In 1876 Clan-na-Gael made a formal alliance with the IRB or Irish Republican Brotherhood

1877 CID[Criminal Investigation Dept] founded in Metropolitan Police.

1879 Michael Davitt, the inspirer of the Land League and Nationalist leader
toured US with Clan sponsorship.His proposal was for an agrarian struggle within Ireland itself.Clan makes "new departure" and offers cooperation to Parnell.

1880 Parnell makes triumphant US tour with Clan backing.Irish National Land League of America founded.

WE Gladstone forma liberal govt as he was confronted by incipient "land War in Ireland.

ROSSA defects from Clan to form hard line United Irishmen.


It is at this point that tactics intensify

In 1881:

Rossa"s missioners attack Salford barracks.A Fenian Office is set up in Scotland Yard and the Land War intensifies in Ireland.
The Clan secretly decides to launch dynamite attacks.
ALEXANDER SULLIVAN , a Chicago lawyer ,is elected president of the Clan.
In 1881 also, Parnell is arrested for "incitement";Land League declared illegal.Agrarian conflict in Ireland reaches near revolutionary scale.


1882:
-Alexander Sullivan gets control of Land League"s funds.

-Parnell is released from jail after Kilmainham Treaty agreement with Gladstone"s government to rein in Land War.


-PHOENIX PARK MURDERS:The new chief secretary for Ireland Lord Frederick Cavendish and his permanent undersecretary Thomas Henry Burke
were walking in Pheonix Park when a black cab pullled up and four men with surgical knives jumped out ,attacked the two men,pierced Cavendish"s throat and then hacked and stabbed him several times in the heart.Burke tried to defend himself but his hands were hacked at and his throat pierced.The two men died.
The attackers left Black bordered "calling cards" at Dublin Newspaper offices announcing the debut of their previously unheard of organisation, "The Invincibles".

Patrick Sheridan ,John Walsh and Thomas Brennan [-see AP"s records above] disappeared, were thought to have fled to Paris or New York.Eventually a man named James Carey broke under questioning.His evidence sent 5 men[not the above named] to the gallows and eight more to serve long jail sentences.They were from a break away group calling themselves "The Invincibles".Many of the knives used were found.All came from a set of 12 surgical knives that had been bought by a certain Doctor from a shop specialising in medical instruments Weiss"s near Oxford Street.
We will in due course return to these knives and to the provenance of another surgical knife, also a Weiss knife, one of two surgical knives of exactly the same kind as those used in the Phoenix Park murders and reported by an ex Scotland Yard amunitions worker to have belonged to Jack the Ripper.
to be continued
Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

Thrilling stuff, Natalie, and I'm glad my little contribution was of some help. Thank you also for the timeline, as I said I get terribly confused by the Fenians so that was very helpful.
Anything else, just ask.

[Natalie Severn]

I very much appreciate your response AP as well as your contribution.I know others such as Andy Spalleck have written that they would like to know more about this vexed question of the Fenians so I decided to post this here so that people could take their time looking at it.
I am so glad you find the timeline helpful-and with your records above it brings the whole thing to life somehow!Do please post anything you find on these matters.

to continue with the timeline:

In 1882:
Edward Jenkinson was appointed assistant under secretary for police and crime at Dublin Castle [he will be important to us later when we return to the provenance of the knife alleged to have belonged to Jack the Ripper -also for other reasons].


1883:

-[some]"Invincibles"arrested in Dublin for Phoenix Park murders

-Rossa"s missioners attack Glasgow,Whitehall and Times newspaper offices.

-Edward Jenkinson[dubbed the Spy master general] is "borrowed" from Ireland to work from Whitehall against terror -bombers.

-Special [Irish] Branch formed withinCID.
-Bombers apparently backed by Rossa arrested in Liverpoool and Cork.
-Dr Gallagher bomb team arrests in Birminham and London.Sent by Sullivan-but with Rossa"s complicity.

- Explosives Act passed making ita criminal offence to possess same without a licence.

-Thomas Beach[Henri Le Caron] signs a $1,200 contract with Robert Anderson
to spy on Chicago Clan.

-William Mackey LOMASNEY sent by clan to make attacks on London underground.Many injuries.

1884:
Jenkinson to operate from London with extraordinary powers[has his own appointed spies]-Robert Anderson is sacked.

John Daly is arrested in Birkenhead with Clan supplied grenades-apparently for an attack on parliament.


Lomasney and [Clan] bombers
-demolishes detectives office at Scotland Yard explosion
-leave bombs at four railway stations.One explodes.
Lomasney makes an attack on London Bridge with his brother and a man named John FLEMING.They are all atomised in the "explosion" .

FLEMING.....this man who was blown up in the explosion----anyone any idea where he came from?Any relation to Mary Kelly"s Fleming?

James Monro appointed Assistant Commissioner CID.

Sullivan dissolves Clan link to Irish Republican Brotherhood because of the IRB"sopposition to terror.
Forma triangle leadership with him at the head.

to be continued
Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

So things were hotting up.In 1885 two men were arrested in the Tower of London by Abberline on Monro"s instructions and it was discovered that one of the men, Cunningham, had stored a chest full of explosive materials in his lodgings in MITRE SQUARE -raided by the police.He and his pal were sentenced to lengthy jail terms.
Meanwhile

1885:
So..."The Clan "were behind these attacks on the Tower of London and House of commons.It was called "Dynamite Saturday" by the press.

Gladstone lost his parliamentary majority.Scenting that the way forward might be to cosy up a bit to the Irish party, Lord Salisbury won their support and got himself elected Prime Minister for a 6 month "caretaker" government.At this point Parnell urges Irish voters in Britain to vote Tory and sure enough ,in November the Elections return Salisbury with a tiny majority very dependent on Irish support in the Commons.

Meanwhile Anderson"s enemy/rival ,Edward Jenkinson, briefs Salisbury on the dangers of not backing HOME RULE.

-Dissident clan members led by Patrick Cronin of Chicago bring charges of Fraud against Alexander Sullivan.

1886:
Gladstone signals conversion to Home Rule.
-January:Salisbury government falls when Irish switch sides in Commons.
Gladstone formsadministration with Irish support.

-Lord Randolph Churchill declares ULSTER WILL FIGHT____AND ULSTER WILL BE RIGHT!

-Gladstone"s Home Rule Bill defeated when Liberals split.Lord Salisbury takes
power with increased majority.

-Sir Charles Warren appointed Commissioner of Metropolitan Police.

-Jenkinson"s "private agents"[spies] arrested in London by Monro.
Edward Jenkinson sacked.

-Sullivan secretly prepares to go back to war.

-Splits occur within Clan,Rossa ousted.
-American National League stays loyal to Parnell and Gladstone.


1887:
-James Monro takes over "secret department".Robert Anderson recalled.
-"Special Section" or "Special Branch" is formed in metropolitan police.

-Arthur BALFOUR appointed Chief Secretary for Ireland.

-first of the "Parnellism and Crime" articles run in Times[later proven to be forgeries ]

--incriminating letters [later proven fakes] run by Times newspaper,linking Parnell to the Phoenix Park murders.

May 1887
--Anderson"s "Behind the Scenes In America" exposes run in The Times.These had been anonymously provided by Robert Anderson.The last of these predicts an attack on Queen Victoria"s Golden Jubilee Celebrations.

June1887
Queen"s Jubillee celebrations pass off peacefully after menacing warnings in press.

In October Robert Anderson "arranged" to expose the existence of a dynamite plot and Thomas Callan and Michael Harkins are arrested.General Millen is named as head of their conspiracy.Both these men are small fry Sullivanites- the main mover slipping off back to America -he was one of Sullivan"s main henchmen a man named Moroney alias Melville.Frank Millen meanwhile-as had been prior agreed-was somewhere quite safe from any arrest warrant!
to be continued
Natalie



---

[Natalie Severn]

We come to 1888.
This was a tumultuous year for the police- and for Robert Anderson in particular.

-In April The House of Commons select committee took evidence on the "admission of dynamiters".
Monro named Millen as Head of the Conspiracy.

-In June Clan-na Gael in New York appointed a "trial committee" to investigate charges of fraud against Alexander Sullivan.
-Frank Hugh O'Donnell,an Irish ex MP , loses his court case against The Times for libel over "Behind the Scenes In America" articles.

-July: A "Bill" is passed to establish a Special Commission to rake over the Times allegations against Parnell

-August: James Monro resigns;continues as Head of Secret Dept.

- In New York ,Clan" trial" begins of Sullivan for corruption.

-Robert Anderson is appointed assistant commissioner and head of CID.

On the very day he took up his new post as CID chief ,Polly Nicholls was found murdered in a back street of Whitechapel. Eight days later Annie Chapman was found murdered in Hanbury Street and he felt the need to get right away from it all.He went to the Swiss Alps,saying he was exhausted from overwork.However on Sunday 30th September he was recalled urgently.Two more women had been found murdered in Whitechapel.But it appears despite an assertion by Anderson to the contrary that he was otherwise engaged.
Robert Anderson wrote in his memoirs: Letters from Whitehall decided me to spend the last week of my holiday in Paris that I might be in touch with my office.I received an urgent letter appeal from Mr Matthews to return-which I did -however a letter from Matthews to Warren in the Home Office "Ripper Files" dated 5th October contains an added "ps"----"I shall be very glad to hear whether Mr Anderson"s health has prevented him from returning to his duties......"In Fenian Fire, Cristie Campbell adds Why Robert anderson should spend the first week of October in the French capital he chose not to elaborate further.
On 4th October 1888 Pigott had departed Paris for Dublin.Robert Anderson also left Paris that day.
Piggott was the Dublin journalist who had , and it would appear with Robert Anderson"s "full knowledge", got the Times to buy his forged "Parnell" letters.
The Special Commission into those and other assertions about Parnell was
about to begin.
to be continued

Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

For the Special Commission Parnell had some very committed comrades . Michael Davitt, a fervent Irish Nationalist,later to become an MP,had been working very hard for him behind the scenes.He had met Anderson"s old adversary,Edward Jenkinson in Paris on the eve of the Special Commission and Jenkinson,already had had some long discussions.Davitt knew Jenkinson and his patron Earl Spencer were being blackmailed.Matthew O"Brien claimed to have two letters that would destroy the ex Spy master General[Jenkinson] and the Earl with him.Davitt made a deal.In the coming Special Commission he would not expose some of the wilder antics of Dublin Castle and Room 56 [Jenkinson"s and the Earl"s old head quarters].In return the newly knighted Sir Edward Jenkinson gave Davitt the lowdown on the extraordinary goings on in Her Majesty"s Government and the real role of General Millen.

Davitt learnt that Tevis, the deadly dynamiter,Patrick Casey too- were in British pay.
He had learnt enough about Richard Pigott to be able,if he so wished ,to stop the "Special Commission" before it began.
But it didnt quite go to plan.
Thomas Beach offered to testify for the Special Commission for £10,000.

In February 1889 Beach [Le Caron] testified and in doind so outed himself as a British Agent.Embarrassing as this was for Anderson, his evidence was devastatingly damaging to Parnell.He also revealed accidently that there were yet more British spies in the Clan,
Richard Pigott broke in the witness box and The Times letters were exposed as forgeries..He fled to Spain and committed suicide.
Meanwhile the Sullivan trial cleared the clan leader of fraud.

Gen Francis Millen died in April 1889 in New York.

In May Dr Patrick Cronin disappears- who accused Sullivan of fraud.
His body was found floating feet first in a storm drain.

In October the Cronin murder trial exposed the Sullivan clan as a "mercenary junta".

The Special Commission was only the tip of the iceberg in some respects. It revealed the lengths Lord Salisbury and his ministers and Whitehall would go to prevent Home Rule Liberalism.The secret apparatus of the state was used to this effect.

Finally, I am increasingly interested in Sir Edward Jenkinson ,the demoted Spy master General ,with his maverick Dublin Castle reputation, his injured pride,his later, apparent sympathy, for Parnell and Home Rule,his illegal extra spy network,his vulnerability to blackmailers, his curious relations with one of the reputed "directors"of the "Invincibles", [the Phoenix Park Assassins],a certain Patrick Sheridan ,I wonder if Jenkinson may still be someone whose secret files,if ever brought to light,might be able to throw some light on Jack.

Natalie

[Debra Arif]

Hi Natalie
Thanks for posting this timeline. I am also one of the people who finds the whole Fenian thing very confusing and really appreciate your efforts, great to have it all here to read through at our leisure.
Just a quickie from me;


FLEMING.....this man who was blown up in the explosion----anyone any idea where he came from?Any relation to Mary Kelly"s Fleming?


Interesting thought Nats. In his memoirs 'At Scotland Yard', John Sweeney, a detective sent out 1887/88 ish (3 or 4 years after 84 he says) to investigate intelligence received at Scotland Yard that Lomasney and Fleming were still alive, tracked down a sister of Flemming living in Southwark. Unfortunately he doesn't give her name or state where exactly she was living, although he did visit her there and retrieve a trunk and coat left by Fleming in 84, the contents of which proved his involvement in the london Bridge bombing. Sweeney was rewarded for finally proving that Lomasney and Fleming actually died in the explosion as assumed and were not once again at large 'lying snuggly hid in Whitechapel or the Bowery, plotting and contriving mischief and outrage such as we could only guess at' he wrote.
Pity he didn't give more info on Fleming's sister, it might have helped answer your question.

Anyway, thanks again, got some reading to do now! :popcorn:

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Debs...hope it will be of some use.Thanks very much for the info on Fleming.This stuff makes me curious about Mary Kelly.She used to go to the Elephant and Castle to see people.I believe its in Southwark!Also there was her trip to Paris/ the husband who was "blown up" etc !
Best
Nats

[A.P. Wolf]

I gotta say, Natalie, that I admire you for getting into this minefield. What a mess, with no end in sight.
I just dug out a few snippets for you, in the hope that they firm up the information you already have in regard to Moroney.
Some time ago on Casebook I do remember posting a report from the Cronin murder where I was absolutely struck by many factors that tied in with certain aspects of the Whitechapel Murders; and I do think that area to be well worth exploring.
Your 'Invicibles' also had something to say about their treatment in British prisons and I can post that as well if you like.
Hope it helps.
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/arrest1.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/moron1.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/moron3.jpg

[A.P. Wolf]

Dates, always forget the dates!
1st report. Daily Evening Bulletin. June 11th 1889.
2nd report. The Daily Inter Ocean. June 12th 1889.
3rd report. Ditto. June 14th 1889.
And then the 4th report is the loud detonation of a Tranter service pistol.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Posted from the Casebook at Nat's request:



Sir Edward Jenkinson's extra-legal activities


Before plunging into some ridiculous concoction about this man who,in his time appears to have "played many parts" a little about his background as cited in Christy Campbell"s excellent read, "Fenian Fire"
quote:
Jenkinson,Edward George[1835-1919;KCB 1888]

Harrow educated civil servant.Private secretary to Earl Spencer;appointed assistant under secretary for police and crime at Dublin Castle after Phoenix Park murders-unofficially dubbed "spy-master general".Acted secretly in same capacity in Home Office in London.Built network of agents answerable to him personally,causing huge rows with Metropolitan Police.Monro accused him [rightly] of extra-legal activities.Ran Millen file in Winter 1885-6.Became Parnell partisan who tried to swing Lord Salisbury to Home Rule.Sacked in DEcember 1886.Secretly fed Michael Davitt information at opening of Special Commision.Used alias George Jones.

for further information on The Fenian"s,also mostly obtained from Christy Cambell"s above named book see link to JTR Forums .com---Suspects and Theories.


Regarding these "extra legal activities" Jenkinson was involved in.He appears to have been something of a maverick.

On page 193 of Fenian Fire there is a passage informing the reader that Jenkinson ,in the Summer of 1886 had received a letter,presumable from the Prince of Wales.The Prince had allegedly and had become alarmed at the threatening content of the letter.He had assumed Jenkinson was the head of the secret police.
So Jenkinson sent one of his agents, a Mrs Worth to trap the writer of the letter-apparently a man calling himself "Magee".Jenkinson had a bag of farthings painted gold to look like sovereigns to give him.However the plan didnt work.
It so happened that James Monro wasalso beginning to be interested in this "Mrs Worth".Her B&B at 16 Glasshouse Street wasadvertised in newspapers as somewhere"messengers" might get a job----"Irishmen preferred".A man named Connolly had answered the ad .He had then[presumably] gone from the address to Scotland Yard wanting a Bus Conductors License.However Scotland Yard was very suspicious and "interrogated " him thoroughly instead!
It turned out that his employer was a man going by the name of "Dawson".
The police asked him what "Dawson" employed him for.He answered he was paid to "watch out for Fenians in public houses".After further question he told the police that "he andplenty more like him were paid twenty five shillings a week.The B&B in Soho was the central office for the operation.
So a police officer named Pope was sent toapply for B&B.Coincidentally Mrs Worth offered the old gent the room of the recently departed "Mr Dawson".
In a trunk left behind by this "Mr Dawson" Pope found a long list of names and addresses---the "muster roll of Jenkinson"s unofficial army of informers and pavement artists"*-page 194 Fenian Fire.
On the 22 May 1886 James Monro got his men to arrest this unofficial band of informers.Monro told Hugh Childers they were a "school of private detectives working as rivals and enemies of Scotland Yard."Jenkinson was reprimanded.
But Monro pressed on.Who was this Mr Dawson?Inspector Littlechild discovered him to be a bigamist living in Norland Square Kensington whose real name was Mr Winters!
So an arrest warrant was issued---only to discover that Mr Winter had flown-to Paris!Jenkinson had tipped him off.
An inspector was sent across the Channel " armed with an extradition order"-the charge "falsely swearing to divorce".
But if Monro had "lifted Jenkinson"s circus of barmaids and bigamists from the streets of London, Jenkinson still ,actually, held very powerful European -and governmental weight.He sent a message to Earl Spencer.Henry Matthews agreed with his request. Mr Winter stayed in Paris without having "his collar felt"by Scotland Yard.
Jenkinson then compiled a top secret report.He sent it not to Henry Matthews but to Earl Spencer.It concerned the Clan"s next steps in their Dynamite war!
The work of Jenkinson might deserve closer scrutiny.From his "wilder days"in Dublin Castle when he had a "little game going on in America "with a reputedly very wild man, , PJ Sheridan [one of the alleged Phoenix Park conspirators]to the time in October 1888 when he and Earl Spencer were being blackmailed.On the other hand he could simply have been a man who was good at his job if a tad eccentric!


Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks so much for posting these news reports AP and Sir Robert for putting the Jenkinson stuff up.
Yes AP-and Moroney being a citizen of Southwark is interesting.Wish we knew who it was Mary was in the habit of visiting in Southwark!
The Cronin murder was a horrible affair and Sullivan and Moroney were behind it.
These were the hard men of Clan-na- Gael.And there were the others who had escaped after the Phoenix Park murder-what did they get up to one wonders.
But I am interested in Jenkinson"s informers-men and women who frequented pubs and were prepared to watch Fenians.Made up of what some called his "pavement artists and barmaids".
According to Paul Begg, Jenkinson was a liberal leaning gent ,thorough and exacting in his work and deplored the loose living and brothel frequenting of some of the Police in London at that time.He refers to Bernard Porters book The Origins of The Vigilant state where he records that a Supt John Shore ,one of the most senior policeman at Scotland Yard was a notorious womaniser and brothel frequenter.He particularly loved a brothel in Fleet Street over the Rising Sun pub run by a Nellie Coffey who was also a police informer.Jenkinson said they were all corrupt and that there wasnt a single one of them who wouldnt have accepted money [ for various cover ups?]----this was said to his colleagues and Earl Spencer.Jenkinson was particularly scornful of Anderson who he considered a complete twit , he also made an enemy of Monro,who he saw as a good man, but rather dull and unimaginative but he was scathing about their failure to catch the Ripper.
Jenkinson was being blackmailed and one wonders what for and by whom.He became friendly with Michael Davitt who appears to have been on familiar terms with some of the Berner Street boys...and girls.Davitt was a man of total commitment.Very different from the Sullivans and Moroney Clan na Gael leaders.

Its very very messy--too true.But hey that doesnt mean we should ignore it.
Thanks for your help AP
Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

AP,Would you be kind enough to post the information you have on the Invincibles? Thanks Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Natalie.
I'm afraid the report is one of those difficult ones, so perhaps Robert can get it for you?
'Invincibles in Prison', St Louis Democrat, May 1st 1887.
It shows how the British government were able to turn the 'Invincibles' into the 'Invisibles'.
Moroney doesn't sound Irish at all in these reports, does he? What with his strong British accent and all.
And the bit where Moroney jumps ship in New York, seconds before departure, leaving his fellow conspirator on board to face the music, makes one wonder just what the devil was going on.
I'm going to look at the Cronin murder again to see what rang my bells last time.
Good luck with the Fenian fire!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi AP,
Thanks for your reply.I am on the move back to London again tomorrow.Going to see King Lear at Stratford on the way!Anyway most interested if Robert could access that on Moroney.Curious character to have been one of the Clan Triangle!
Will continue searching Wednesday night.
Best
Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

Ah, King Lear, now who does that remind me of?

[Debra Arif]

Moroney doesn't sound Irish at all in these reports, does he? What with his strong British accent and all.



You are right AP, I don't think he was, from the little bit of poking I have done, seems he was born in England (Horselydown) and brought up in Southwark, both the UK and US Philadelphia census entries seem to confirm this.
This is also for Natalie, (Re the Southwark connections, nothing earth shattering as yet Nats...but..) there is an extension of the last report AP posted which says that Moroney's father was still living in London in 1889 , and both his parents were natives of Limerick according to the census, if I have the right man, which I think I have...but I never take things like that for granted!
Anyways, I'll keep on poking.

[Natalie Severn]

Ah, King Lear, now who does that remind me of?

Well I didnt like to say---but he had three daughters didnt he!It was marvellous
AP.

[Natalie Severn]

Debs,
Thanks for posting that.However,it states in Fenian Fire that he was from Philadelphia.Might you be able to double check it Debs?I will search through my books too to see if there is any reference to his "birth place".Numbers of them went to live in America from here and from Ireland-especially after Phoenix Park.
I will also check the Limerick references I have because again there are a number of references to Limerick in the above named book but I cant remember who they concerned.It seems to have been pretty important in "the struggles".
Best
Natalie

[Debra Arif]

Nats, do you mean it states that Moroney's father was from Philadelphia or Moroney himself?

[Natalie Severn]

Nats, do you mean it states that Moroney's father was from Philadelphia or Moroney himself?

Hi Debs-under biography ie a snapshot biography-it states it is the Joseph we are talking of-not his father thus: Joseph Moroney,Sullivanite Clan member from Philadelphia.Arrived in Liverpool on Jubilee Day 1887 -turned up at the House of Commons six weeks later as "Joseph Melville".Despatcher od Dynamiters. Accused of complicity in the Cronin murder.Shadowed by Police around London and Paris.

Having looked at the birth places in Fenian Fire of numbers of Fenians they appear mostly from Cork or Limerick counties.Have not long been back in London but as soon as I can I will press on with this.Again many thanks for all your help and interest-
Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

Nats, Debs, if I remember correctly it is stated in the report I posted that Moroney was born in County Cork and then went to Southwark, London, at a very early age... much later in his life he went out to Philly.
Given the way he abandoned ship in New York, leaving his 'comrade' up to his knees in the muck, and then his shady involvement with the Cronin murder, he has got to be a double agent, hasn't he?

[Debra Arif]

Hi Nats and thanks
From the US press reports I have looked at John Joseph Moroney apparently went to Philadelphia from London in 1872 , most state he was born in England,a native of Southwark.
There is a John Moroney in Philadelphia in 1880 b England of Irish parentage who's details fit exactly with a John Moroney living with his Irish mother in John St Southwark in 1871. According to the 1871 census he was born in Horsleydown. In 1861 I think I have found him listed as Mahoney, apart from the name variation his details tally exactly, as do those of his mother, his father Dennis is also living with them at this time, both Dennis and Julia are stated as born in Limerick and the whole family are living in Southwark. In one press report it says that John's father was still a resident of london, this was dated 1889.

Does it give the name of his father in the book at all?

[Howard Brown]

Excuse me Debs...

There's a neighborhood in Philadelphia named Southwark as well.

If there's an address for this Moroney gentleman,let me know. I need an excuse to use this digital camera...and I live in Philly.

[Debra Arif]

Thanks for that How, you had me wondering for a minute then!

I rechecked the report and it says Southwark Borough of London. The guy on the US and UK census seems to fit all of the details that appeared in the papers, I've posted one of them below from The Daily Inter Ocean (Chicago, IL) Friday, June 14, 1889

2406
2407

[Natalie Severn]

Great work Debs! Quite right---you have the man himself.
The family lived in Southwark,London and his parents were born in Limerick.
Fenian Fire has him down as a known associate of Alexander Sullivan.Sullivan was the Chicago lawyer and politician whose parents were born in Cork-next county to Limerick.
Both Sullivan and Moroney were indicted by a Chicago coroner"s jury ofcomplicity in the murder of Patrick Cronin-a doctor,also a Clan na Gael member, who had accused them of fraud .It looks as though they believed he was doing some kind of "business" with the British...but there is nothing that has so far turned up other than they decided to "remove" him because he,Dr Cronin,also Cork born, was aligned with a John Devoy-a different kettle of fish altogether.John Devoy became Sullivan"s most bitter enemy eventually so I reckon he must have been reasonably decent!!! But big splits were developing within the Clan.Interestingly, it is with the John Devoy,Dr Cronin faction ,that the British govt were able to get on with a little-but only a little.John Devoy worked quite closely later with Michael Davitt called a "Nationalist visionary" by Cristy Campbell in Fenian Fire.Maybe were a bit easier to deal with than the hard men,Moroney and Sullivan.
However Robert Anderson had two invaluable "spies"[apart from quite a few others and thats not including Anderson"s enemy/rival, Sir Edward Jenkinsons " with his extra-legal spy ring- also providing info on this and that informing the Home Secretary etc.]
LeCaron[Thomas Beach] , and Gen.Francis Millen- both posing as Sullivanites and therefore they had all sorts of access to the inner mechanics of the Clan-na-Gael movement.

But returning to JJ MORONEY of Southwark and Limerick parentage.He really appears to me to have been little more than a mercenary-a "fixer" who didnt get his own hands too bloodied but non-the-less was complicit in dynamite plots,murders, money arrangement.But he let others take the flack while he flitted here and there.
Nice Guy:yuck:
Natalie

[Debra Arif]

Thanks for all that Natalie

But returning to JJ MORONEY of Southwark and Limerick parentage.He really appears to me to have been little more than a mercenary-a "fixer" who didnt get his own hands too bloodied but non-the-less was complicit in dynamite plots,murders, money arrangement.But he let others take the flack while he flitted here and there.
Nice Guy:yuck:

Yes I agree Nats, my main interest in looking at Moroney was the Southwark connections we talked about before concerning MJK and the man named Fleming, blown up in the London Bridge explosion, and his sister.

I'm in the middle of Le Caron's book now, it's quite an enjoyable read. I found a few other interesting ex detective memoirs that touch on the Cronin murder and other Fenian doings. The Masonic like initiation ceremonies into the Fenian brotherhood are something I didn't know about before.
I need to do plenty more reading before I am up to basic knowledge with this complicated but interesting organisation, thanks for prompting me to read more about them with this thread Natalie.

[Howard Brown]

Debs,Nats...

I have been on Kensington Ave and Cumberland Street several times...they are in the "eastern" section of the city ( There is no East Philadelphia.... only Kensington,Frankford,Richmond,Fishtown( named by Charles Dickens) and several other neighborhoods comprise this once burgeoning mill area of the city,since it is in close proximity to the Delaware River....the major Port of Philadelphia ).

Many Irish immigrants ( The Italians went to South Philly) would have settled in this specific area in the LVP and before... since it was,as mentioned an industrial sector of Philadelphia. Refineries,factories,mills,warehousing,the fish trade,all were within walking distance to Kensington Avenue,still a major inner city arterial route.

[Natalie Severn]

Debs,Nats...

I have been on Kensington Ave and Cumberland Street several times...they are in the "eastern" section of the city ( There is no East Philadelphia.... only Kensington,Frankford,Richmond,Fishtown( named by Charles Dickens) and several other neighborhoods comprise this once burgeoning mill area of the city,since it is in close proximity to the Delaware River....the major Port of Philadelphia ).

Many Irish immigrants ( The Italians went to South Philly) would have settled in this specific area in the LVP and before... since it was,as mentioned an industrial sector of Philadelphia. Refineries,factories,mills,warehousing,the fish trade,all were within walking distance to Kensington Avenue,still a major inner city arterial route.

Thanks How.P{hiladelphia certainly seemed to be important one way or another to the Fenians!
Natalie

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Debs,
It is ofcourse with that in mind that I am interested.I mean are we certain that Mary"s Flemming was the plasterer from Mile End who changed his named and finally entered one of the lunatic asylums- or may he have been related to the Fleming or Flemming who blew himself in the London Bridge 1884 ? He may have been related to the dynamiter anyway if they were all born in England these Flemings.
That book by Le Caron sounds good.Must get it from the Library.
Best
Natalie

[SirRobertAnderson]

I'm in the middle of Le Caron's book now, it's quite an enjoyable read. I found a few other interesting ex detective memoirs that touch on the Cronin murder and other Fenian doings.

I'm sure I'm gonna feel like an idiot, because you undoubtedly mentioned the name of the book, but I can't seem to find it ......What's it called ?

[A.P. Wolf]

Nats & Debs
if it helps, Moroney was staying at 7, Gladstone Street, Southwark in 1887.
One can't but help feel that there is a bit of irony there somewhere.

[Debra Arif]

AP, Nats
Thanks for that address AP, managed to find some more Times reports through it. I wonder if we can find anymore on a mentioned 'Miss Kennedy' the lady who stayed with Melville (Moroney) at the Metropole Hotel while he was over in 1887 and who accompanied him to new York and then Paris to meet Millen....him a married man too!


Sir Robert, you're not an idiot I didn't put the title of the book, sorry. It's;
Twenty-five years in the secret service : the recollections of a spy. 1892 by Henri Le Caron.

[Natalie Severn]

So Moroney was living at "The Elephant and Castle" in Southwark the previous year.Thanks AP---that is interesting.
So , pulling some strands of thought together here,The Times records Joseph Barnett as telling their reporter on November 9th -the day of her murder,that he had seen Mary earlier the night before when he was unable to give her any money ,he is then reported to have said "she sometimes visited a friend-in the same position as herself, at The Elephant and Castle".
Was he implying she could have gone there after he left her?
Mary would have covered herself I am sure-I mean , to Joe Barnett she wasnt off to see some feller...but more likely to see a fellow "unfortunate".
The reason I am particularly interested in following this "possible" lead- is the strangely inappropriate presence of George Hutchinson ,watching outside her room in the early hoursof the 9th November.It looks to me like Hutchinson could have been one of any number of Whitechapel"s "police informers". He went to Abberline after the murder of Mary to tell him of his sighting.Abberline followed it through but when it didnt seem to lead anywhere he eventually dropped" Mr Astrakhan".

After all, despite Mary saying she was brought up in Wales , she seems from several accounts, to have often been heard singing "Irish songs" and McCarthy is definitely on record as saying he had seen letters from her mother -that her mother lived in Ireland etc.
So there could be a link of some kind with the Fenians.
Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

No worries Debs
have you or Nats looked at the activities of the 'Southwark Irish Literary Club'?
There seems a hell of a lot of threads that run through that organisation in 1887 & 1888.
WBY was lecturing there in March of 1888.

Just for a jolly, and wouldn't you, I was just perusing incidents involving Fenians in London, and their propensity to use blades in assaults against women. Not much there really.
But there is an interesting case from September of 1866, and although the murderous assault is carried out on a man, there are certain aspects to the case that gives one pause for thought.
And then there is, of course, that famous one from March 1883 where Lady Florence Dixie is stabbed by Fenians, disguised as women, if you please.
No wonder uncle Charles shot them on sight.

[Debra Arif]

have you or Nats looked at the activities of the 'Southwark Irish Literary Club'?



Can't say I have AP, do you have anything you could post?

[Natalie Severn]

I have just looked into it a little on the web AP and Debs.
Some surprising links.Apparently after attending the Berner Street Working Men"s Club on Saturdays[not every Saturday but quite a few!] William Morris held Sunday evening "get togethers" at his place in Hammersmith ,where he invited WB Yeats.Yeats ,who it is hinted may have taken a Fenian Oath at this point,also attended the Southwark Irish Literary Society,set up to preserve Irish Culture---and like the Berner Street Club,there seems to have been a lot of singing and dancing there-this time Irish not Russian!
It is possible that Mary Kelly on some of her visits to the Elephant and Castle ,may have gone to the club occasionally---may even have solicited outside it like Elizabeth Stride in Berner Street.
I have come to a dead end with regards to background information on
Moroney,Peter Sheridan etc.
Its annoying but I will ask at the Library if they have anything on any of these characters.
Thanks for your interest AP-it all helps.
Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

Yes there are some interesting connections, and how!
This is a short extract from 'Four Years' by WBY:

'It was the death of Parnell that convinced me that the moment had
come for work in Ireland, for I knew that for a time the
imagination of young men would turn from politics. There was a
little Irish patriotic society of young people, clerks, shop-boys,
shop-girls, and the like, called the Southwark Irish Literary
Society. It had ceased to meet because each member of the
committee had lectured so many times that the girls got the
giggles whenever he stood up. I invited the committee to my
father's house at Bedford Park and there proposed a new
organisation. After a few months spent in founding, with the help
of T. W. Rolleston, who came to that first meeting and had a
knowledge of committee work I lacked, the Irish Literary Society,
which soon included every London Irish author and journalist, I
went to Dublin and founded there a similar society.
W. B. Yeats.'

It seems to me that WBY and the Southwark Irish Literary Society sort of represented a cross-over point between the ardent socialists and the radical Fenians; and given WBY's comments I wouldn't be at all surprised to find some Whitechapel girls in the audience having a giggle.
But what is a real giggle is the fact that WBY and all his associates - including Oscar - were using a house in Charlotte Street, Fitzroy Square as a regular meeting place at exactly the same time that Le Grand was bunkered down in the same quarter.

[Natalie Severn]

AP,Fitzroy Square appears to have been important in terms of illicit Victorian sex !An ideal place for gathering information by private investigators so I am not surprised about Le Grand being out and about there.
Some of the links are surprising though. I knew William Morris had an "open house" in Hammersmith where Bernard Shaw went from time to time and I knew WB Yeats lived in Hammersmith or more accurately Chiswick.
Yeats was recruited to the Irish Republican Brotherhood in 1886.He assisted in the setting up of several Irish Literary Societies including,I believe this Southwark Irish Literary Society-though he was against writing in Gaelic which some there encouraged.I believe you may be right in suggesting that the Southwark branch appears to have represented a crossover point between the revolutionary Irish and the Radical Socialists like William Morris.
Yeats, though ,apppears not to have been picked up Sir Edward Jenkinson"s Dublin Castle intelligence network-if he had have been he would apparently have not been able to pick up later a British pension,which he did.Still,it would be surprising if he didnt know some of these individuals rather well---people such as Michael Davitt who we know William Morris worked with on occasion.
As for Mary Kelly.Well if she was in the habit of singing Irish songs,as several of her neighbours said in the press ,then she seems to have felt an affinity with her birth place. If as Joe Barnett said she was in the habit of going to the Elephant and Castle,then it is in the realms of possibility she also knew of the Irish Club there,where such songs were celebrated.But the Elephant and So why would she go all the way there? But then why for that matter did Elizabeth Stride go all the way down Berner Street to the back entrance of the IWEA or why or where did the stone broke Catherine Eddowes disappear to that afternoon, only to resurface falling down drunk? It seems as though nobody bothered to inquire........but some of these visits could be significant
Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

Debs
going back to your young lady 'Kennedy' being with Melville in London, Paris and New York in 1887.
This has got to be her as she is the only 'Kennedy' arrival in New York for 1887. Although described as a 'wife', she is travelling without hubbie.
'Catherine Kennedy - wife - 24 - arrival NY: 23rd November 1887 - origin: Ireland - ship: 'Italy'.'

Nats
my understanding is that when WBY joined the 'Irish Republican Brotherhood' in 1886 he was required to take the Fenian oath.
Therefore as a Fenian sympathiser he would have been the ideal go-between for the arty and highbrow socialist reformers like Morris and Wilde - who were after all only the respectable front for the anarchists and agitators of the streets and workingmen's clubs - and the dynamiters and revolutionaries of the Fenian persuasion and conviction.
One wonders if Morris was often at the Southwark Irish Literary Club then perhaps WBY might have strayed down to the Berner Street Club?
One also wonders whether some of the extended M'Carthy family - given their pretensions to the stage and theatre - might not have also enjoyed membership of the Southwark Irish club?

[Natalie Severn]

Hi AP,
Yes I know---my imagination goes a bit wild when I read up on some of the connections.Well Yeats was a gonna for Maud---if you"ll excuse the pun.Maud Gonne ,his muse definitely had political dreams about Parnell and nearly suffered a nervous breakdown when he died.
I hesitate to see Yeats as a front for the Fenians.Its possible.But he doesnt seem to have been committed to anything much for very long other than his poetry.
William Morris was a kind of "armchair revolutionary" when the going got hot and his anarchist friends did start to talk about bombings and such he seems to have taken rather swiftly to his bed with some kind of nervous debility.When he returned to "action" he had virtually severed his links with them.
Michael Davitt,who comes up again and again and was later to become an Irish MP,was a committed Irish Nationalist and socialist and won a great deal of respect all round.But I very much doubt he had much to do with the type of psychopaths Moroney and Sullivan appear to have been.
Jenkinson appears to have been won over to Home Rule by the likes of Devoy and Davitt.
But they do all appear to have been moving around the same clubs,arousing plenty of police interest etc.
I am seriously wondering about Mary Kelly,Elizabeth Stride and even Catherine Eddowes having been police agents.In Fenian Fire it states that Monro was appalled by the aristocratic Spy Master General"s [Jenkinson"s] "unofficial army of barmaids,bigamists and pavement artists."
On the other hand ,when one of the alleged Phoenix Park assassins/conspirators, Peter Sheridan, who had fled Ireland just after the assassinations in Phoenix Park of Cavendish and Burke,now living as a sheep farmer in America-approached the Washington British legation offering to turn "informer"they messaged the British government with "I think that even now Government might be glad to get him overas he could give valuable information.He has no doubt still a good knowledge of whats going on" -see page 190 Fenian Fire for more information.
So you see with murderous characters such as Sheridan offering their services
to this and that,is it any wonder Macnaghten is said to have identified the "Ripper "with the leader of a plot to assassinate Balfour!
Natalie

[A.P. Wolf]

Blimey Natalie, those waters are muddy!
I don't envy you the task you have set yourself here.
I also do not see WBY as a dynamiter or anything like that, but I think he may have acted as a safe conduit between the armchair (and bed ridden!) radicals and the real boys.

Debs, hold fire on my last post, as I now note that Melville and his 'Miss Kennedy' sailed from Le Havre on the 17th September 1887 for New York.
But meanwhile I think I've solved the mystery of Miss Kennedy.
According to this report from the 'Daily Inter Ocean' of June 14th 1889, Miss Kennedy was none other than Mrs. Moroney.
On arrival in New York, Miss Kennedy was arrested for smuggling.
I wonder what she had in her Samsonite?
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/kennedy1.jpg

[Natalie Severn]

Debs and AP,
You might enjoy this story of Mrs Moroney and her lace filled bustle.
Monro,apparently still unaware of who Moroney and Mrs Moroney actually were,had had them followed which included to Le Havre and Paris.On their way back to the States he determined to have the contents of her bustle investigated ,having noted that she spent a lot of time "shopping".Instead of a big stack of dynamite being discovered the customs found instead a stash of lacy underwear fell out and poor Miss Kennedy was arrested for smuggling- it led them directly to their Tenth Avenue home in New York!Good job Thomas wasnt around-if he had taken a pot shot with his dagger he might have been festooned with lacey underwear like a Charlie Chaplin farce!
Natalie
Thought I would add that you are quite right AP.It is muddy and actually I havent really set myself that task----I am just seeing if there might be any connection with the movements of any of the victims with the comment attributed to Macnaghten .
Its a long shot---and unlikely .But what the hell!
N

[Debra Arif]

Thanks AP and Nats for sorting out the Kennedy thing, nice story!

Thought I would add that you are quite right AP.It is muddy and actually I havent really set myself that task----I am just seeing if there might be any connection with the movements of any of the victims with the comment attributed to Macnaghten .
Its a long shot---and unlikely .But what the hell!
N

Well worth a closer look Nats I have to agree. I'm still trying to get to grips with key names and players in all this, there is soooo much written about this organisation and so little time to read it in!:wacko:
I'll keep an eye out for anything you might be interested in as I come across it though.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Debs, I ,for one really appreciate it. It is a bit daunting but its quite interesting and so many mad buggers about you cant help wondering if Jack might have been "helping out" with any of the acts of violence ........
Nats

[ferret]

Brilliant work Nats-
Like AP I find the Fenians difficult to get my head around -mind you I have that problem with a lot of things!

Interesting that 'chummy' was known as 'F.M.' though............

I LOVE the Mrs Moroney story-what an image!!

Suz x

[Natalie Severn]

Ta Suz,
Its an interesting side view -I doubt it will lead far but it may be worth a go!
May see you Sat-am not sure yet if I can go
Nats
xx

[ferret]

Well it's a great piece of work anyway Nats!!!! Be great to see you on Sat if you can make it...Dids is looking forward to seeing you too!!!!

Love Suz:loco: x

[Debra Arif]

That book by Le Caron sounds good.Must get it from the Library.
Best
Natalie

Natalie, just found a very nice website on Le Caron.You can download a full version of Le caron's book from it in the documents section.
Looks like the people involved in the site are planning a film about his life too.

http://www.henrilecaron.com/Welcome.html

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Debs....shall look this up properly tomorrow!Good to see you posting!
Cheers
Nats
xx