John Pizer

[Chris Phillips]

I'm not sure whether the following is entirely new, but I haven't been able to find it on the boards or in the books I have. It supplements the census data for Pizer's father, stepmother and siblings posted previously by Chris Scott on forum.casebook.org:
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=43815&postcount=5

Here is the entry showing John Pizer and his parents in the 1851 census of St James Dukes Place:

24 [Mitre St]
Israel Piza / Head / / 38 / General Dealer / Poland
Abigail Do / Wife / / 40 / / Surrey St Saviours
John Do / Son / / 7m / / St J D P
Elizabeth Moss / [?]W / 63 / Mother in Law / Seamstress / Do Do
Ann Salter / Servt / / 59 / Genl Servt / not Known
[HO 107/1532, f. 403b]

The only possible birth registration indicated by the FreeBMD index is that of Jacob Pizer in the 4th quarter of 1850 (London, reference 2, 189).

FreeBMD gives the marriage of Israel Pizer and Abigail Moss in the third quarter of 1842 (London, reference 2, 164) - and later the death, in the first quarter of 1853, of Abigail Pizer (London City, reference 1c, 95). This is followed by the remarriage of John's father, Israel Pizer, in the second quarter of 1854 (St Luke's, reference 1b, 795). I think the bride must be the person indexed by FreeBMD as Costa Chlebonski, though it's obvious her name is written in the index as Gosta.

At any rate, the timing is in good agreement with the statement quoted by Chris Scott, that John Pizer "since he was three years old has been brought up by Mrs. Piser".

Then FreeBMD provides the births of two of the children who show up in the later census entries:
Janet Pizer, 3rd quarter 1857, Stepney, 1c 449
Samuel Gabriel Pizer, 4th quarter 1860, Whitechapel, 1c 402

John Pizer himself was an inmate of the German Jews' Hospital at the time of the 1861 census:
John Piser / Inmate / / 10 / Scholar / Middx Aldgate
[RG 9/294, f. 62b, p. 28]

Perhaps this reflects the ill health reported on other occasions.

The details of the death of John's father were posted by Chris previously:
Fourth quarter, 1872
Israel Peiser, 57, Whitechapel, 1c 235

Beyond this, I've been unable to locate John Pizer in the records. It's been suggested in the past that he was the John Pizer whose death was registered at Whitechapel in the 3rd quarter of 1897, aged 47 (reference 1c, 205). Christopher Morley, referring to this death, says "He died in July 1897 of gastro enteritis in the London hospital, after a lifetime of poor health." The age is correct, but to confuse matters there was another John Pizar, a boot maker, living in Bedford Street, aged 39 and born in Birmingham, in the 1891 census. (He may be the same Jacob Peiser whose birth was registered in the 4th quarter of 1850 at Birmingham - reference 16, 432).

So John Pizer's whereabouts in the 1871-1891 censuses, and perhaps beyond, remain a mystery, as does the possible link with the Julius Lipman, said to have been "Leather Apron", whose death was reported in the press in 1900.

Chris Phillips

[Debra Arif]

Thanks for posting this Chris.
I recently came across a report in the US press about Piser taking legal action against certain UK and US newspapers. In this report it gives his name as Isaac Piser.
It's probably just another reporter's mistake and not to muddy the waters, but I did find an Isaac Piser living in Whitechapel in 1861 aged 5,couldn't find him beyond that though or any other members of his family.

[Stan Russo]

Not to be the killjoy here, but John Pizer, whether he was Julius Lipman or not, was unequivocally cleared of the murders of Nichols and Chapman and therefore could not have been JTR.

Stan

[Chris Phillips]

Not to be the killjoy here, but John Pizer, whether he was Julius Lipman or not, was unequivocally cleared of the murders of Nichols and Chapman and therefore could not have been JTR.

Yes, of course. That's taken as read.

But he's a significant figure in the case - probably the most significant contemporary suspect, at least in terms of public perception. So it would be interesting to know more about him.

For example, I thought it was interesting that, though John Pizer is sometimes described as a "Polish Jew", in fact he was a native of London. His father was Polish, but had been in London at least since the early 1840s. His mother and his maternal grandmother were English by birth.

Chris Phillips

[Stan Russo]

Chris,

By calling him a Polish Jew I believe he is being classified as the ethnic origin of his Jewnessosity ( not a word but still pretty funny).

I am not sure how you can call him a contemporary suspect, as he was cleared, and therefore, not a suspect.

Stan

[Chris Phillips]

I am not sure how you can call him a contemporary suspect, as he was cleared, and therefore, not a suspect.

I know some Ripperologists use the word "suspect" in a complicated technical sense of their own invention. Plain English is good enough for me - he was a suspect because he was suspected.

Chris Phillips

[Stan Russo]

So, a suspect is a suspect is he is suspected, even though that suspect is no longer suspected because they have been cleared of suspicion?

Like how I technically invented that to show how your view makes no sense?

Stan

[Chris Phillips]

Stan

Do you actually have anything of substance to say about Pizer? If so, I'll be happy to discuss him.

But I'm afraid I really don't have time to waste arguing about what the word "suspect" means.

Chris Phillips

[Stan Russo]

Chris,

Yes I do.

John Pizer is not a suspect in the JTR murder investigation. Once a suspect is cleared of suspicion, they cease to remain as a suspect. That is one of the cardinal rules of a murder investigation. It allows the investigators the chance to narrow down the field of potential suspects, or those who actually may have committed the murders.

I hope that helps, but I'm pretty sure it won't.

Stan

[How Brown]

Dear Chris:

Thanks for the information you've put up regarding Pizer. I think he,like Stephenson,would be an excellent area/individual to discuss. I'm surprised that we didn't have anything prior to your initial post.

I don't know about anyone else, but Pizer's "story" ( following the initial arrest by Sgt. Thick on Sept. 10th...) would be interesting to discuss.

For example....what happened to him following the year 1888 and into 1889? Better yet,what happened after his deposition at the Chapman Inquest....maybe that could be a starting point for us here,if someone would care to initiate a discussion...

[Glenn L Andersson]

Didn't I read some rumours about Pizer disappearing abroad in later years, to South America or something like that? Ah well, my memory fails me.

Of course, it is quite likely that John Pizer was Leather Apron, simply because he - in contrast to his relatives, who ensured he wasn't - himself admitted at the inquest that he went under that nickname. And as we know, this was corroborated by PC 'Johhny Upright'.

That's one thing.
But without doubt Pizer can't be a suspect for the Ripper murders. He was initially a suspect, but he proved to have a clear cut alibi for the Nichols murder, as Stan correctly points out, verified by a policeman, and therefore (unless the Nichols murder was unrelated, which is a difficult thought to ponder) he must be exonerated.

But it is quite probable that he was the Leather Apron character referred to by some sources.

[Chris Phillips]

For example....what happened to him following the year 1888 and into 1889? Better yet,what happened after his deposition at the Chapman Inquest....maybe that could be a starting point for us here,if someone would care to initiate a discussion...

I can't help thinking that as Pizer hasn't been found in any of the censuses after 1861, there may be some kind of common factor accounting for his absence. Perhaps an idiosyncratic spelling of his name that no one has thought of, or something.

Glenn has mentioned the possibility that he left the country after 1888, which would be worth looking into.

Otherwise the only tangible clue to his later history seems to be the death registration in 1897, though it's not absolutely clear that's the right man. Apparently Christopher Morley had seen that death certificate, so I've emailed him in the hope he may be able to provide some further details.

Chris Phillips

[A.P. Wolf]

I'm not very up on Pizer as a suspect, or not, but I was surprised to find a report in the 'Irish Times' of 11th September 1888 which states that shortly before his arrest he had been in a 'convalescent home'.
Is that where all this stuff about a convalescent home started, I wonder to me good self?