Martha Tabram Week

[How Brown]

Beginning today and all the way to the 10th of August....I thought it might be worthwhile to mention the woman omitted from the Canonical Five and yet quite possibly the first in the skein of murders by the Ripper...Mrs.Martha Tabram.

Here's a link to what had been discussed on the site previously...in case you wanted to know.

Thank You.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=1318

Please feel free to discuss it here or over there.:)

[WRITEFX]

There was a post on that thread about the people in the building would have been alerted by the noise made during the killing but-from what I've read about that period and those houses, it was usual to hear screams, fighting, husbands hitting wives and children etc no-one would have thought anything of it.

[admin tim]

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=4013


Surprised me too.

[Joe Chetcuti]

It's 3:30am in London right now on Aug 7th. 121 years ago at this exact time, Alfred Crow noticed a body on the floor at Martha's murder site. Although there are some who will always disagree, I think this is when it all began. I'd say Martha was the Ripper's first Whitechapel victim.

It would be interesting to hear from people who initially did not regard Tabram's death as a Ripper murder, but have reconsidered and now look upon it as such.

What caused your perspective on this murder to change?

[Colin Roberts]

Perhaps one of the most unsung discoveries in the field of 'Ripperology' …

John Bennett's 'stumble' upon a photograph of what was, in all likelihood, the site of the murder of Martha Tabram: First-Floor Landing*, George Yard Buildings, George Yard, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel.

* 'Second Floor' in North America

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/GYB.jpg
- Click the image to view discussion of its discovery, in March 2008 (Casebook.org) –

While we cannot be certain that the above image depicts the very landing, on which Tabram perished; we must acknowledge the fact that the depth of this edifice was a mere 24-26 yards; and thus realize that the existence of an additional stairway, along with corresponding interior passageways on each of the four floors, was an extremely remote possibility.

Of particular note: If the floor-plan of the adjoining St. George's House (off right edge of image), which incidentally was also discovered by John Bennett, is anything by which to make an assessment; then each of the twelve doors (two being partially obscured, and two being completely obscured by the post-1888 ground-floor addition) seen in the above image, leads to a suite of three-to-four separate apartments. Surely then, there was no need, and for that matter, no room for any additional stairways, within the structure.

[How Brown]

Unsung is not the word for it over here,Colin. How about "Never saw before" !!:banghead::banghead:

Typical work by John Bennett and thanks very much to you Colin for sharing this work with me/us.

[Caroline Morris]

It's 3:30am in London right now on Aug 7th. 121 years ago at this exact time, Alfred Crow noticed a body on the floor at Martha's murder site. Although there are some who will always disagree, I think this is when it all began. I'd say Martha was the Ripper's first Whitechapel victim.

It would be interesting to hear from people who initially did not regard Tabram's death as a Ripper murder, but have reconsidered and now look upon it as such.

What caused your perspective on this murder to change?

Morning Joe,

I see two quite plausible scenarios:

a) Jack heard/read about Martha's murder and how rare and sensational it was considered to be, even for grotty Whitechapel, and saw it as his permission to get stuck in and act out his own darkest fantasies.

b) Something Martha said or did sent an unstable Jack over the edge and before he knew it he'd stabbed her several times and just kept stabbing. Getting away with it, and becoming an overnight sensation in the process, he felt justified in turning his murderous thoughts into action, only next time it happened the impulse would not take him by surprise and he'd have thought through the possibilities and practicalities and come prepared.

One reason I am leaning towards b) these days is Robert Napper.

Love,

Caz
X

[Joe Chetcuti]

Colin, that was nice of you & John to share that George Yard Building photo. I wonder what year it was taken?

I can't help but notice the 5 exterior "poles" or "pillars" that rise to the roof of the building. I wonder if those poles were gutters? Or did they have something to do with holding up the building? The photo below of Tabram's murder site shows a pillar that appeared to have been some kind of a structural support for the stairwell.

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?album=7&pos=7

The military investigator who came to the George Yard Building on the night after the murder made no secret about how he suspected Tabram's killer to have been a satanist. With 39 stab wounds near a pillar, I could see where that investigator was coming from with his thoughts. I just wonder if those 5 exterior poles in the photo were there in Aug 1888, or were they installed at a later date?

[Archaic]

Hi, everybody.

John and Colin, thanks for bringing that photo over here; it really is an eye-opener!

Joe & How, I agree with you that it's important to stop & remember the victims, so thanks for the reminder.

I do think Tabram was a Ripper murder, by the way.

Best regards, Archaic

[Joe Chetcuti]

Yes Archaic, commemorating the victims is the first thing we should think about when these anniversary dates come along.

Although I'm not really big on "Ripper" polls, it's hard not to notice that whenever a vote is taken each Aug 7th, more and more folks look upon this George Yard crime as a Ripper murder.

[How Brown]

Joe:

Thats true,isn't it? Yet... I think some of the long time Ripperologists don't pitch in and vote on the issue and I am pretty sure that more of those individuals are against the idea.

In any event, I think,as I think you do, that Tabram is worthy of considering her inclusion and certainly worth researching further. Hell, we don't even know where she's buried.:banghead:

[Joe Chetcuti]

Well Howard,

For some people, the longer they study these mysteries the longer their thoughts set in cement. I imagine it would be tough for some old-timers to change their views on the Tabram murder.

As for myself, I couldn't reach a definite opinion about this George Yard crime for years. It wasn't until I studied into the knighted Parliament member who conducted the Whitechapel investigation that I categorized this crime as a Ripper murder. That military investigator completely expected that more crimes of this nature would be committed by this fiend. And he had that figured out by Aug 8th.

[How Brown]

Joe:

I had a long post that I deleted ( relaxed brain at work double time this evening...:banghead:) in regard to the Tabram murder. Oh well.

Anyway,Joltin'....I think that some people accept the story Pearly Poll laid down at the time. I think its a lotta noise to be honest since Reid couldn't locate anyone who saw the two ladies together that evening.

In addition, if it was a one-off....and not by the hands of Mr. Shant Be Buckled Yet...its possible that the Ripper emulated him considering the remarkable overkill present in that murder.

Hard to imagine someone getting stiffed on a quick kneetrembler and taking out whatever frustration or anger on Martha to that extreme....but oh well my Maltesian friend....thats what makes the world go 'round.:kiss:

[Jon Simons]

Whoever killed Martha left a Ripper crime scene; Location, victim, time of death, body flat on back with skirt raised to abdomen, no noise and no clues.

If, like many are inclined to believe, Martha was killed by a pissed off, pissed up soldier, then I have no problem with that soldier becoming the Ripper three weeks later.

[Currerbell]

Is she not also regarded as a probable victim for those who believe George Hutchinson was the Ripper? Because George Yard etc was very close to the White Hart pub and therefore George's workplace?

[Rob Clack]

Hi Sarah,

I think you mean George Chapman and not George Hutchinson.

Rob

[Currerbell]

Yeah thats it! Durr....:banghead:

[Nemo]

Hi all

If we discount Tabram as a Ripper crime, I think (especially within the C5) we have a consistent "character" of killer

Sumply put, he cut the throat, disembowelled and extracted organs taking body parts away

There is little doubt about the general consistency of his attacks

If we include Tabram, then a lot changes about the suppositions that can be made of the Ripper

He attacks in different ways, stabbing + slashing /ripping etc

He seems to attack Tabram in a "frenzy" wheras the C5 seem quite clinical and calculating

A progression of violence can be posited from Tabram to Kelly

He possibly carries at least 2 knives

etc etc


Like the difference between Chapman's poisoning and the Ripper's use of the knife, Tabram's mode of death IMO seems too different to the later crimes to be connected

The Ripper could well have been a man who was spurred on to do his thing by the rumour, terror and widespread publicity surrounding the Leather apron inquiry

He could well have completely understood what made good headlines and what would stir up the terror of the populace - the idea of a monster in their midst - and simply chose to be that monster

I recall there was talk of killing/ripping women "in the Whitechapel manner" and similar phrases at the time and a local rough may have taken a certain pride in the fact that he lived within an area everybody considered Hell and they would never venture there etc

Someone chose to greatly strengthen that type of image of the East End

Such a thinking and reading person could well have been spurred on by the Tabram case as here was a quick, silent, ferocious murder causing great consternation and there was little or no evidence toward the identity of the killer

One interesting aspect is that anyone reading about Tabram's murder would realise the significance of the identification of the knife as being probably the only major clue - ie the knife possibly being a bayonet may point toward a soldier being the culprit

If the reader was then looking around for a knife to use to cut throats and such, he may well have chosen a medical knife, maybe consciously to throw suspicion that way, being nothing to do with the medical profession himself

In choosing a medical (possibly post-mortem) knife, it may then have implanted the idea beforehand of committing a clinical medical/post mortem type killing on the street to produce maximum horror - probably a mad doctor type of character would have been forefront in the killer's mind

Dr Jekyll & Mr Hyde therefore, possibly along with the earlier Frankenstein stories, among others, may well be significant in the Rippers psyche

No need for sexual explanations or trophy killer or cannibal and the like

I think it's worth considering how trivial the reasons for the Ripper killings may have been, as well as all the convoluted theories that abound

(Apologies for the long post - )

[How Brown]

Thanks for the elaboration,Nemo.

Just as an aside here, how likely is it to you from your study of the Tabram Saga that a soldier committed this murder and if so, do you feel that someone who could commit such a heinous murder would be able to integrate himself back in with the cadre ( Guardsmen or other military outfit ) without ever committing a crime of that nature again ?

I've always wished that we had the names of those Guardsmen that appeared in the identity parades just so we could find out if anything of a remotely similar nature occurred in any of their lives.

[Nemo]

Hi Howard

I think it more than a possibility that a soldier client killed Tabram

Such a murderer I think would possibly be supported by friends even - he would almost cetainly be covered in blood spatters from the killing and need to get cleaned up to return to barracks

I see no problem with his committing such a crime and going on with his normal daily life afterward - and there is nothing to say that he did not commit other crimes at a later date, possibly spurred on in turn by the Ripper, or more likely in a drunken rage

A lot relies on that ID of the weapon as a bayonet

If it was indeed a bayonet that caused the injury then the talk of soldiers within the vicinity by multiple witnesses I think would have been the best clue to steer the direction of inquiry

Don't forget though, that illustrations of the time often depict soldiers and other uniformed men as desirable sexual partners especially for the lower class women

I don't think it would have been unusual for an ordinary man to don a uniform, impersonating a military man, to go on the town at night seeking female company. This may have extended to the carrying of a bayonet

[How Brown]

Thanks again,old man, for expressing your views.

One thing that comes to mind in regard to her death is whether Dr. Killeen ( the name of the high school I went to in Texas) was aware of any talk circulating about "soldiers" and Tabram....or other prosses before he conducted his post mortem work on her. In other words, could he have been influenced to the point where a bayonet became a possible instrument in her death ?

[Jon Simons]

Hi How

Insp Reid and PC Barrett went to the Tower to see if Barrett could identify the soldier he saw sometime on the day of the murder, that same afternoon Killeen performed the postmortem. Can`t help thinking that Killeen was aware of what the Police were doing, especially as there would have been police at the mortuary.

[How Brown]

Jon:

Thats exactly my thought as well...that some sort of information regarding the identity parade preceded Killeen's post mortem....and it wouldn't necessarily have to be a case of Killeen just running with the ball as we say over here....but taking the fact that Reid did go with Barrett to the barracks into account and as a result took that possibility into consideration. Bayonet-produced murders were pretty rare and we don't have to look that up in some factotem...

In addition, its not impossible that Reid or another official of his stature in the police department could have asked Killeen whether a bayonet was used prior to any work done on the corpse....

Good thinkin',buddy,

[Joe Chetcuti]

Nemo, you made a fine point with your last two sentences. Any Ripper suspect who had a history of falsely representing himself as having been connected with the military certainly does warrant a long look.

You said "He seems to attack Tabram in a 'frenzy' where as the others are quite clinical and calculating."

To me, that is a point of contention. A few years ago this matter was well discussed on these boards. Check out Posts 18 & 24 on the web link below, and you might change your view on it.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=1318&page=2

It is notable that the military investigator of the George Yard murder implied that the assault on Tabram's corpse was performed by some sort of a precisionist. This would not be the work of a pissed up soldier. I think the reason why this killer was looked upon as a precisionist by the investigator was because 38 stabs had deliberately missed the heart, while the other stab was directly thrusted into the heart with a heavier blade.

I crossed the street to the (policeman), and after a great deal of persuasion, he described (Tabram's appearance), where she was found a few hours before, bleeding like an abattoir, and sliced to suit the murderer's purpose with anatomical accuracy.

[Nemo]

Thanks for that Joe - point taken

It certainly isn't a definite fact that the killing was doene in a frenzy

I'm not sure about it being a Ripper crime though...

[Archaic]

Does anyone know if an off-duty soldier would have been permitted to walk around with his bayonet?

If it was a soldier with a bayonet that attacked Martha, wouldn't he have had to make an effort to conceal it from view all night rather than just wearing it in the usual way?

Thanks.

[How Brown]

Very good question,Archaic....and one that most of us in the 21st Century could only guess at. Good thinkin'.:high5:

[Stephen Thomas]

Does anyone know if an off-duty soldier would have been permitted to walk around with his bayonet?


Hi Archaic

From Autumn of Terror by Tom Cullen (1965)

An unexpected result of the Tabram inquest was that soldiers stationed in the Tower of London were forbidden to carry bayonets or any sidearms while on leave. This information was given to me by James W Bousfield whose mother ran a boarding house at No. 4 Star Court where Martha Tabram lodged. Bousfield, then aged 83, showed me one of the key chains which Tabram had hawked for a living and which he had retained as a souvenir after the murder.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Does anyone know if an off-duty soldier would have been permitted to walk around with his bayonet?

.

I believe they were. Of course, this was probably forbidden after sh!t got real.

[Archaic]

Hi, Stephen; thank you for that quote.

So apparently off-duty soldiers were permitted to carry bayonets and side-arms BEFORE the Tabram murder, but this was changed as a result of the Inquest into her murder?

- Is that how you understand this passage too?
Did this change only apply to soldiers stationed at the Tower of London, as mentioned in the quote?

I have trouble picturing an off-duty soldier really wearing his bayonet when out for a night on the town. I would expect them to strip off extraneous gear if only to be more comfortable and to feel a bit freer.

Prior to the Ripper Murders, I wonder how often off-duty soldiers got drunk & availed themselves of their weapons to settle arguments and altercations.. and I wonder if there were murders committed by off-duty soldiers who were thus armed?

[Ultra Violet]

Whoever killed Martha left a Ripper crime scene; Location, victim, time of death, body flat on back with skirt raised to abdomen, no noise and no clues

That's a nice wrap up of what I think. I might add another similarity to the Ripper crimes, the murder occurred on a Bank Holiday.

Concerning the change of m.o. - I'm only in the beginning of a research on serial killers and started with killers who eviscerated (for obvious reasons). These are not a lot of figures, I have so far - but of 14 killers who left bodies with mutilations similar to the Ripper victims, 9 changed or switched their method of killing and some only after one or more murders began to eviscerate their victims (I added that point later and have no figures, yet).

Concerning the method of killing, I found combinations like bludgeoning/strangling, bludgeoning/shooting, stabbing/strangling, cutting throat/bludgeoning, to name just a few.



One question, that came up when reading that thread:

Celesta: when you say there might be link to Emma Smith and Margret Hames does that mean, you think that a gang might have committed the Martha Tabram murder, or single one member of that gang, who may or may not have been Jack the Ripper?

[Sam Flynn]

Concerning the change of m.o. - I'm only in the beginning of a research on serial killers and started with killers who eviscerated (for obvious reasons). These are not a lot of figures...
I suspect that, if you looked for non-serial killers who indulged in a stabbing frenzy, they'd be rather more numerous than serial killers who changed their method from frenzied stabbing to evisceration. It strikes me as somewhat dangerous logic to start from the premise that Tabram was killed by a (yet-to-be) serial killer when, taking her murder at face value, it is entirely consistent with the idea of someone with anger-management problems completely losing control. There are rather more of those sorts of people around than the more specialised kind of deviant who controlledly ensnares a victim, then cuts open the body in order to excise its organs.

[How Brown]

It strikes me as somewhat dangerous logic to start from the premise that Tabram was killed by a (yet-to-be) serial killer when, taking her murder at face value, it is entirely consistent with the idea of someone with anger-management problems completely losing control. -Sam Flynn

Sammy...thats one hell of a loss of control and mismanaged anger, isn't it ...if its a one off ?

One of the underrated aspects within the Martha Tabram murder...to me and I might be under or overestimating the situation....is the amount of time the killer...whether by a one-off killer or our Mr. I Shant Be Buckled....took at the scene of the crime. With all due respect, look at a clock or watch and count off 30-35 seconds....thats the minimum amount of time it took to inflict at least 39 stab wounds.



The point is understood that non serial killers do and have indulged in one off stabbing frenzies , but non serial killers are far and fewer between in the first place and without them developing into serial killers, we wouldn't know if they would eventually change or alter their methods . I think thats an issue or point that Ms. Loewe is driving at, if I may be so bold.

[Jon Simons]

There are rather more of those sorts of people around than the more specialised kind of deviant who controlledly ensnares a victim, then cuts open the body in order to excise its organs.

Hello Sam

Martha seems to have been as ensnared as well as any of the other victims.

We don`t know that Nichols was opened up to excise organs. Can`t see any any reason why he didn`t, in that case, as she was already going cold when Cross and Paul touched her, so interuption seems unlikely.

[Sam Flynn]

Martha seems to have been as ensnared as well as any of the other victims.
My point was about "being ensnared... with the intent of cutting open the body to remove its organs", Jon. I see no reason to believe that, when Tabram was picked up, her customer did so intending to inflict multiple stab-wounds upon her. As I said, the manner of death is entirely consistent with someone completely losing control - that is, a triggered, rather than a pre-meditated, killing.We don`t know that Nichols was opened up to excise organs.Her abdomen was opened up, though, and she wasn't stabbed.Can`t see any any reason why he didn`tPerhaps he chickened out, or got too - ahem! - "excited" at the brink of realising his fantasy? If so, the putative "frustrated horn" he may have experienced might explain why he took so many risks on the next time of asking, at daybreak in Hanbury Street.

[How Brown]

Jon:

Allow me just to add this, not to dismiss what you pointed out at all...

Robert Paul said that he had touched her hands and face at her Inquest and that they were cold. No argument there,sor....

However, if her hands and face had been cold at the time she was killed, and according to Coroner Baxter, the morning had been a chilly one, then how significant in terms of timing is the observation made by Paul that her hands and face were cold as applicable to the length of time that she had already been dead?

In short, if Nichols' hands were cold when she was killed, they would be cold in any event and this might give us the impression that she had been killed sooner than what we might seem to ascertain.

Back to you.:high5:

[Sam Flynn]

Sammy...thats one hell of a loss of control and mismanaged anger, isn't it ...if its a one off ?Were there any other multiple stabbings that Autumn, though, How? Apparently not... so this could well have been a "one-off". As far as a "loss of control" is concerned, I see nothing in Tabram's murder that doesn't support such a conclusion, and plenty that does.

[Jon Simons]

Good points, How.

P.C. Neil noticed the blood still oozing from her throat?
What time did Llewelyn arrive?
Her killer didn`t seem to be targeting the uterus

The subject of Polly`s T.O.D. is interesting, and little discussed. I don`t think the killer was disturbed, crouching by the stable gates in Bucks Row would have been a good vantage point. I was planning to start a thread to discuss this issue. I was thinking perhaps nearer the 31st.

[Jon Simons]

My point was about "being ensnared... with the intent of cutting open the body to remove its organs",

True, Sam. But there is always the Robert Napper card to play regarding a planned, frenzied knife attack.


Perhaps he chickened out, or got too - ahem! - "excited" at the brink of realising his fantasy? If so, the putative "frustrated horn" he may have experienced might explain why he took so many risks on the next time of asking, at daybreak in Hanbury Street.

Possibly, but we did see in later cases to what extremes the swine could go to, and from his P.O.V. he`d done all the hard work with Polly.

[Sam Flynn]

True, Sam. But there is always the Robert Napper card to play regarding a planned, frenzied knife attack.

Was that planned stabbing, Jon, or was a planned rape that got "out of control"?

[How Brown]

Sam:

One thing to contemplate is whether ( and of course,as with so much in the Case its speculative ) the killer on August 7th intended to mutilate Tabram but instead and in a fairly similar( sharp object as opposed to throttling or bludgeoning), equally as risky, and just as vicious manner "changed" his style of attack in an accomodation of sorts due to factors we don't know about.

I know you're down on Tabram as not being a Ripper victim if you were to hazard a guess....but there are similarities which cannot be overlooked...which I am not suggesting you DO overlook, but nonetheless, often are by many of us when we talk Tabram as Ripper victim.

True, its not a street murder, but its a murder that is as equally vicious, equally risky and just as much a case of overkill as the next murder which was three weeks and three days away.... and which doesn't get scrutinized. The most significant similarity in the Nichols murder when compared to sister murders such as Chapman's and Eddowes', is, obviously, the evisceration and abdominal wounds. Yet the risk factor and the overkill might be worth reevaluating....and the possibility of an unknown factor in the Tabram murder which prevented her body from being eviscerated.

For me,Sam, its hard to come to terms with someone else schlepping around Spitalfields with issues so severe that he would spend all that time (Try that watch-the-clock-experiment...) conducting an annihilation over a botched liason....for indeed her murder is nothing less than an annihilation with sufficient attention focused on her genital area, an attention that is also present ( in a somewhat different way and to a somewhat different degree,for sure ) than the other eviscerated street victims.

What reason could Tabram have presented to another murderer, if not the Ripper, for him to annihilate her and that would mirror the accepted Ripper crimes ( N/C/E / & K) to such an extent? Risk..knife....location...time...viciousness.

I'm of two minds here too in a way, Sam...because the issue of a copycat always looms, so don't think I'm oblivious to that possibility,old bean.

[Archaic]

Hi, everybody; interesting discussion. Here's my 2 cents:

I think Tabram's murderer stabbed her in a frenzy which was for him a sexual frenzy because it involved the particular activities he found sexually exciting: using a knife on a woman, blood, etc.

I think perhaps he didn't yet know what type of murder and mutilation would gratify him the most, but quickly realized it was more along the lines of
throat-cutting/evisceration/ organ removal. He clearly found cutting even more enjoyable than stabbing.

The fact that he had TIME to stab Martha 39 times right outside the doors of the building's occupants must have made him realize not only that he could murder in the street and get away with it, but that if he spent his precious minutes
doing only those things that he most wanted to do, he could accomplish them.

Unfortunately, he was right.

[Sam Flynn]

The fact that he had TIME to stab Martha 39 times right outside the doors of the building's occupants must have made him realize not only that he could murder in the street and get away with it, but that if he spent his precious minutes doing only those things that he most wanted to do, he could accomplish them.Problem is, he didn't even start to do them, Arch. He didn't so much as cut her throat or slash her abdomen - indeed, he barely touched the latter. As the following illustration hopefully shows, Tabram's death was practically the antithesis of subsequent Ripper murders:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/tabram.jpg

...Tabram's killer "got to the point" more than somewhat, but if he was indeed Jack, he was "skating around the issue" big-style :)

[Nemo]

I sometimes associate the high number of stabs with killers who have a real hatred or anger against their victims

Anger and hatred may produce the overkill, stabbing multiple places on the body in a very calculating manner, without a necessity for an uncontrolled "frenzy"

I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone stabbing all over a victim's abdomen with the goal of piercing all the organs in turn

The Yorkshire Ripper stabbed once with a long sharpened screwdriver and then nearly pulled it all the way out before pushing it in again at a different angle

That's the closest comparison that I know...

Except....for someone militarily trained or at least a martial art expert

When soldiers are instructed how to attack in hand to hand combat, they are often informed of the positions of the liver, kidneys, solar plexus, heart etc in order to deal an incapacitating or lethal blow

[Ultra Violet]

Just to clarify why I referred to data on other serial killers:

I see some similarities to the Ripper murders, which have been mentioned in this thread already.
My point is, that a different m.o. is not the ultimate argument to exclude Jack the Ripper as potential murderer of Martha Tabram.
Nothing more.

I can see a variety of scenarios of what went on there - the information that can be found on the Martha Tabram murder is too vague for me to reach a definite conclusion.

[Archaic]

Hi Helga, Sam & Paul.
I agree that the high number of wounds is indicative of a frenzied rage; in this case I believe it is a frenzied sexual rage.

I can visualize an inexperienced Ripper getting so carried away with his stabbing frenzy that he never gets to the reproductive organs & has to leave the body... maybe he heard some one? Maybe his own loss of control scared him?

But I think the result would be that his thrill, satisfaction, whatever you want to call it, would quickly wear off & he would want to do it again, but that next time he would make sure to target those areas most important to him right from the beginning.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Detective Inspector Harry Cox when talking about the George Yard murder said there were no "marks of struggles or of blows given in anger."

And from Chicago police reporter James Maitland who was in London during the time of the Whitechapel killings: When (the Tabram murder occurred) I had a talk with the chief of the secret service of London police. He said to me what I knew before. "This man" said he "is a fellow, probably a foreigner, who has got in trouble better imagined than described, and a desire to get even has over-mastered him and the taste of blood has made him mad."

Those quotes expressed the belief that even in early Aug 1888, the Tabram murder wasn't looked upon as a frenzied isolated incident that was spontaneously perpetrated by a drunk. It was looked upon as a controlled and premeditated murder.

[Sam Flynn]

Those quotes expressed the belief that even in early Aug 1888, the Tabram murder wasn't looked upon as a frenzied isolated incident that was spontaneously perpetrated by a drunk. It was looked upon as a controlled and premeditated murder.I'm at a loss to see how 39 stabs could be seen as "controlled", Joe. I mean, it's completely over the top, surely?
Detective Inspector Harry Cox when talking about the George Yard murder said there were no "marks of struggles or of blows given in anger."
Tabram's autopsy revealed an effusion of blood between the scalp and the skull and, if memory serves me right, Tabram was given to fits. The fact that there were no signs of struggle might be explained by Tabram going into one such fit and banging her head.

As to angry blows, one presumes Cox meant "punches", because the fusillade of stabs that rained on her body could hardly have been considered peaceful.

[Archaic]

Hi, Joe. I think those c.1888 quotes betray some of the very attitudes that made it so hard for LVP law enforcement to catch the Ripper, including the prejudiced notion that he was almost certainly "a foreigner".

39 individual stab wounds do not sound like a "controlled" murder to me, but perhaps they lacked an understanding of the concept of 'Overkill' back then.

The statement that "no blows were given in anger" highlights the fact that they didn't understand what they were dealing with. The killer had already fused his anger, his rage, his deviant sexuality, and his urge to commit violence upon a woman and turned them into murderous action in the form of 39 stab wounds, but the authorities seemed to expect the victim to have a black eye as well before they thought they detected signs of anger.

[Joe Chetcuti]

I provided a web link on Post 24 that explored into the question of whether or not Tabram was killed in a frenzied manner. My reasons why I concluded that she was not killed in a frenzied manner was given then, therefore I do not need to repeat them here.

The 39 stab wounds should not be viewed as an overkill if the viewpoint of the military investigator of the George Yard murder is to be listened to. The investigator declared that Tabram's killer deliberately attacked his victim with anatomical accuracy that suited his purpose. The investigator also revealed that the suspect he was hunting for was a satanist. A man who may "dance around a sacrifice." If the investigator was accurate, and I believe he was, then the exact count of 39 stab wounds that were applied to the corpse near the stairwell pillar, is very much in accord with how a satanist who would mock the Scourging at the Pillar. The deliberate application of 39 wounds, not one more - not one less, fits perfectly into the ideology of the investigator who viewed his suspect as a satanic precisionist. The investigator did not view Tabram's assailant as a frenzied man who was in an overkill mode. He viewed him as a man with intellectual qualities and finesse. I agree with that assessment, and I feel that the investigator should be paid attention to.

[Archaic]

Hi, Joe.
Do you have a link or anything explaining a bit more about this "Scourging Of the Pillar"?

I really don't know much about it, so I'd appreciate a bit more info if you have anything.

>> So do you think the 39 stab wounds inflicted on Martha Tabram intentionally paralleled and mocked the 39 Lashes that Pontius Pilate gave Christ?

Thanks, Archaic

[Joe Chetcuti]

Hi Archaic,

I'll provide you what you've asked for. I'll send it to Howard, and he in turn can e-mail it to you privately. You'll receive it later this week.

It's notable that when the investigator talked with the policeman near the murder site on the night after the killing, the investigator expressed his concern about the exact appearance of Tabram's corpse. He did not seem to be concerned with the military man whom PC Barrett talked with at 2am, nor did he ask if there were any neighbors who heard something. The exact appearance of how the killer left the corpse was what was on the investigator's mind.

I should mention that the exact count of 39 wounds inflicted at the Scourging at the Pillar is a long time Christian oral tradition. You will not find that number in any bibilical account. The Romans weren't all that particular about how many lashes they gave out. But Jewish temple guards would inflict exactly 39 wounds when they scourged. (St. Paul wrote in the New Testament that he received the punishment of 39 lashes on two occasions from the Jews.) And so a Christian oral tradition was passed down that the Scourging at the Pillar consisted of 39 wounds to Christ.

[Archaic]

Thanks, Joe; I appreciate it.

By the way, is the 'Investigator' that you refer to as being very interested in the appearance of the body Inspector Cox or someone else?

Archaic

[Sam Flynn]

Joe,

It seems highly unlikely to me that those 39 stabs were inflicted in a careful manner (like Gregory Peck planned to do to Damien in The Omen). Of course, if your take on the Tabram murder finds the opposite to be true, you're welcome to your opinion.

[Joe Chetcuti]

Archaic,

The military investigator was Colonel Francis Charles Hughes-Hallett. He was also a knighted Parliament member at the time of the Aug 8th investigation.

[Archaic]

Hi Joe. Do you happen to know how Colonel Hughes-Hallett came by his knowledge of occult practices?

Thanks

[Ultra Violet]

On my way back home from work, I read an article in Ripperologist No 94 (August 2008), by Don Souden "Martha Tabram: Does She Or Doesn't She" - with another possible and plausible scenario, not involving JtR.


And I did come up with a question that maybe someone has an answer to:

What could Killeen possibly have meant with "pen knife"?
In the article is the photograph of what I would refer to as a small pocket knife, although I know it is called pen knife, too.
However, was that term used for pocket knifes back in LVP already?
Since I draw occasionally, I think of a pen knife as a knife which would be used to sharpen writing utensils, the blades of these even shorter than of a pocket knife.

As Don Souden says in that article, it's quite difficult to imagine how someone would have managed to stab internal organs of a woman as chubby as Martha Tabram, going through layers of clothes, possibly a corset (as mentioned in Illustrated Police News) and quite an amount of fat tissue with a blade that short.

Here some photographs:

old pen knife
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4853/federmesser.jpg

modern pen knife
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5020/federmesserneu.jpg

pocket knife
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9863/penknife.jpg
(http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9863/penknife.jpg)

[Jon Simons]

it's quite difficult to imagine how someone would have managed to stab internal organs of a woman as chubby as Martha Tabram, going through layers of clothes, possibly a corset (as mentioned in Illustrated Police News) and quite an amount of fat tissue with a blade that short.


Hi U.V.

I don`t think her clothes would have been too much of an obstacle. According to Insp Ellisdon`s report, Tabram was wearing a green skirt, brown petticoat, long black jacket, brown stockings, side-spring boots, black bonnet-all old.

I`m pretty sure an old penknife was like a clasp knife that could fold it`s blade away.

[Archaic]

This might help a bit- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_knife

(there's a neat photo of an ancient Roman pocket-knife, by the way)

[Joe Chetcuti]

Archaic,

As for your question of where Hughes-Hallett got his knowledge of occult practices, I could only guess.

He had a connection with a parish called St. Mary's on Vicarage Road, Strood. He also was the commander of a Royal Artillery Division in Ireland, and so I assume he must have dealt closely with the Irish church leaders while he was there.

[Archaic]

Thanks, Joe.

Helga and I are reading Don's article "Martha Tabram: Does She Or Doesn't She" in Ripperologist #94, August 2008, so if any of the rest of you would like to read it, we can all have a lovely argument...

:)

PS: I just realized I will hit post #666 soon, a number of great Occult significance... I think i might celebrate it by taking over the world;
I'll let you know.

[How Brown]

Good choice for a discussion by the two of you ladies.

[Donald Souden]

If I might be allowed a moment of immodesty, I would suggest that "Suede and the Ripper," also by me, in Ripperologist 104 (July 2009) might also be read in conjunction with the article Archaic cited. It develops more fully one of the reasons I believe Tabram was not a Ripper victim.

Don.

[Archaic]

Good choice, Don; I just read that one.

[How Brown]

May I also humbly add that a good antidote to the "Exclusionist" camp...those harridans and hornswoopers who would keep Martha from being a veritable Bond Girl....is the January 2006 article in Ripper Notes by Wolf Vanderlinden, entitled...."No Ordinary East End Crime".

I'll bring up some points from Wolf's article...maybe he would care to appear here too, since he wrote the article...and maybe others would like to pitch in.

[How Brown]

Allow me to begin the pro argument...using some of the arguments that Wolf Vanderlinden proposed and one or two of mine which others may have already considered without being credited.
************************************

1. Tabram was not seen in the act of prostituting herself on the night of question with the exception of Mary Ann Connally, a.k.a. Pearly Poll.

Connally's "help" in pointing out the client/ Guardsman failed and Inspector Reid says as much in his September report to Supt. J. West.....42 days and not one person came forward to say they saw the four revelers on the night in question.

My conclusion: Pearly Poll, for whatever reason one may speculate, was not a credible witness. That Tabram was with her is what I would dispute and that she was engaged at the time she was said to be engaged with a client is untrue or at least, questionable to the point of setting Poll's claims to the side.

2. The location of Tabram's body.

Why, I say to myself, on earth would a prostitute and a client go up to a second floor in an inhabited building and get down and dirty when there were other less risky and more secluded areas to conduct that sort of business?

My conclusion: Tabram was either drunk and tired or simply tired and tried to sleep off a drunk since the police were known to sweep the streets of homeless men and women in need of sleep.

I suggest that her killer, for one reason or the other, entered the building and killed her without provocation. The excesses of the murder are too akin in their ferocity to discount a similarity to the next murder 24 days later.

Anyone? Lets get it on.....:high5:

[Sam Flynn]

"Excesses... ferocity", How?

True, on the first count - albeit excess of a different kind - but surely not on the second.

Tabram's demise was "punchy"; Polly's was "slicey".

[How Brown]

Sam:

It may be a matter of how we as individuals percieve someone being stabbed nearly 40 times within a span of time approximating 30 seconds or more. I don't know about you,buddy, but it would fall under my definition of ferocious.

With all due respect and out of curiosity, is that actually how you would describe an attack on a human being...as being a "punchy" attack?

Wolf Vanderlinden touched on a few other excellent points in that article from 2006, which I was hoping he would come by and posit. If he doesn't , I'll just repeat what he said in its context later on.

Let me ask you point blank,Sam..since you're a straightforward person....what do you make of the Pearly Poll story as it applies to Poll and Martha being together on the night prior to her demise?

[Sam Flynn]

With all due respect and out of curiosity, is that actually how you would describe an attack on a human being...as being a "punchy" attack?
To clarify, How, if you forgive the onomatopoeia:

One punches a knife into the body ("WHUMP... WHUMP...") in the case of a multiple stabbing, as with Tabram. This contrasts starkly with the "slicey" manner in which the Ripper first cut Polly's throat, then her abdomen ("shhhhhhhht.... shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht"). These means of dispatch are as fundamentally different in technique as they are in the physical feedback that the killer would experience when inflicting the wounds.

[How Brown]

Sammy:

The onanism is forgiven,buddy.:kiss:

Now...do you think that the Tabram killing would fall under the classification of a ferocious attack or a smooth,coordinated attack on a supine victim....or in another set of terms ?

[Sam Flynn]

Sammy:

The onanism is forgiven,buddy.Does that mean I can take the boxing-gloves off tonight? Good-oh :)do you think that the Tabram killing would fall under the classification of a ferocious attack......precisely that, How. Neither smooth nor coordinated, but probably supine.

[How Brown]

And to the question of whether or not you buy the Poll story?

[Sam Flynn]

And to the question of whether or not you buy the Poll story?Which one, How? The cavorting with soldiers bit?

[How Brown]

Let me put it this way Sammy...

If there is anything that you DO feel may be truthful in regard to anything she claimed about the night in question.lets hear it.

If there is anything that you DO NOT feel is truthful, please elaborate.

Thanks buddy.

[SirRobertAnderson]

To clarify, How, if you forgive the onomatopoeia:

One punches a knife into the body ("WHUMP... WHUMP...") in the case of a multiple stabbing, as with Tabram. This contrasts starkly with the "slicey" manner in which the Ripper first cut Polly's throat, then her abdomen ("shhhhhhhht.... shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht"). These means of dispatch are as fundamentally different in technique as they are in the physical feedback that the killer would experience when inflicting the wounds.

OK, now we are getting somewhere.

What if MT fainted, on her own, whereas the others were taking down by a choke hold ? Might Jack have acted differently towards the two ?

[Chris G.]

Hello all

You know I have gone back and forth on whether Martha Tabram could have been a victim. But after reading the recent contribution of Don Souden in Ripperologist in which Don argued that in most of the canonical murders (or as Don would insist, the "canonic murders"), the deep throat cut was distinctive and unique, I would tend to discount Tabram as a victim of Jack the Ripper.

Tabram remains an alleged victim only because of the closeness of the crime to the death of Mary Ann ("Polly") Nichols at the end of August three weeks later. But it would seem to me highly unlikely that the killer could have developed his clean and deadly throat-cutting technique in just three weeks and would not have used it on Tabram as well.

Folks, this one is a "ringer." Sorry!

All the best

Chris

[How Brown]

Dear C.G.

I'm more inclined to include her despite the throat wound disparity....and more so due to the risk factor ( location, for one example ).

The difference in the throat wound, con mucho respeto, to me is similar to the difference between the numbers 2,000,000 and 2,200,000. Different,for sure, but how different really?

Thanks for pitching in...and I agree, for what its worth, Don makes a good counter argument.

[Sam Flynn]

The difference in the throat wound, con mucho respeto, to me is similar to the difference between the numbers 2,000,000 and 2,200,000. Different,for sure, but how different really?
It's not just the wound for me, How - it's the difference between how the wound was inflicted, and the sensation experienced by the killer as he did it.

The difference between this:

"WHUMP! WHUMP! WHUMP!" (x13, already)

and this:

"ssssshhht, ssssssshhhhhht, ssssshhhht, ssssshhht, sssshhhhht"


...there's quite a gulf between those two actions.

[Sam Flynn]

What if MT fainted, on her own, whereas the others were taking down by a choke hold ? Might Jack have acted differently towards the two ?I don't think so, Bob. It seems that Jack's "thang" was to incapacitate his victims as quickly as possible (multiple stabs hardly being conducive to same) in order that he could proceed to slit their bellies open. His throat-cutting appears to have been a means to an end - that end being the evisceration. If the victim died by some other means, then I can't quite see him foregoing his peculiar pleasure.

[Sam Flynn]

Let me put it this way Sammy...

If there is anything that you DO feel may be truthful in regard to anything she claimed about the night in question.
I'm prepared to accept that there's a kernel of truth in about everything she said, How, with the caveat that she was a raddled old (well, middle-aged) soak. We see later on in the WM series that even indirectly-involved witnesses were hardly reliable - in varying degrees given to lapses of memory, exaggeration, invention, self-preservation or purloining elements of other people's stories. Given the oppressed and degraded lifestyles of the Victorian slum-dwellers, they might be forgiven for making the most of what would almost certainly have been their only chance at "fifteen minutes of fame".

[SirRobertAnderson]

, the deep throat cut was distinctive and unique, I would tend to discount Tabram as a victim of Jack the Ripper.



That carries little weight with me, Chris.

What if MT fainted/had a seizure and Jack did what he did on an impromptu basis ? He liked the results but realized improvements could be made. For one thing, the next one would be likely to resist, hence the "Anderson Carotid Artery Choke Hold", which I introduced on another thread awhile back. Hence the deeply cut throat, etc etc.

Suppose it is not any more complicated than he didn't have the "right" knife with him that night?

I really think it borders on the cretinous for anyone to argue that a serial killer always does the same old same old.

[Sam Flynn]

I really think it borders on the cretinous for anyone to argue that a serial killer always does the same old same old.
Would it be borderline cretinous to suggest that obsessive/compulsives tend to crave the same old, same old stimulus?

[Sam Flynn]

Suppose it is not any more complicated than he didn't have the "right" knife with him that night?
That being the case, Bob, I find it hard to fathom why he chose to inflict 39 stabs - count 'em! - to the neck, chest and (NB) UPPER abdomen, without essaying one single cut from breastbone to pubes, type of knife notwithstanding. If Martha's killer showed any interest in any part of the body at all, it certainly wasn't the lower abdomen... in complete contrast to the man who did for Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly - none of whom, it bears repeating, sustained any significant stab-wounds.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Would it be borderline cretinous to suggest that obsessive/compulsives tend to crave the same old, same old stimulus?

You mean like posting thousands of times about Hutch as Ripper ? :typing:

We don't know if JtR had OCD.

Actually, it's profiling that gets my dander up.

Jack didn't cut MT's throat, and did go nuclear on Kelly when he could have just done the same old same old. Neither murder fits nicely into his M.O.

And for that matter, walking away from Whitechapel after Kelly also broke his pattern.

All I know is that a murdered whore in Whitechapel during the Terror should not be discarded as a potential victim unless there is overwhelming reason for doubt in the particular case.

[Archaic]

Sam, I believe that amongst the 6 wounds to Martha's abdomen there was one knife wound closer to Tabram's lower abdomen/genital area.

Just off the top of my head, I believe the doctor remarked that the knife seemed to have been wielded in a longer swipe and appeared to have "glanced off the pubic bone."

But this is just from memory; I'll check my notes.

[Sam Flynn]

We don't know if JtR had OCD.Of course we don't - and my intention is not to diagnose at a distance. That said, Jack seems to have exhibited a passion for "something", and - let's include Tabram and Stride for laughs - on fully five out of six occasions, stabbing did not once feature in whatever-it-was he was getting off on. In contrast, Tabram's killer was stabbed thirty-nine times. Now, if that doesn't indicate some sort of compulsive behaviour, then I don't know what does.

Actually, it's profiling that gets my dander up.I'm no fan of profiling either - and that's not what I'm doing here. I'm only looking at five (or six) murders, only one of which features stabbing - and not "just" stabbing, but stabbing to the point of overkill. Furthermore, stabbing that signally avoided the lower abdomen, whereas in four out of the five others, the lower abdomen was a primary target for the knife.
All I know is that a murdered whore in Whitechapel during the Terror should not be discarded as a potential victim unless there is overwhelming reason for doubt in the particular case.Like the "multiple stabs versus absolutely no stabs at all" or "deep throat cuts versus no cut throat at all" dimensions aren't sufficient reason, Bob? What if a "Whitechapel whore" had been found shot? Pushed under a train? Glassed with a broken bottle? Thrown over a bridge with a rope around her neck? Had her head stoved in with a house-brick?

Tabram was killed in a fundamentally different manner to every other victim of the Whitechapel Murder series. There is no more reason to suppose that she was killed by the same person as Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes than there is to suppose that she was killed by any one of the killers of the non-C5. If anything, the gratuitous puncture-wounds she suffered have more resonance with the murder of Emma Smith than the others, and I'm not for one moment suggesting that we should link even those two.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I believe that amongst the 6 wounds to Martha's abdomen there was one knife wound closer to Tabram's lower abdomen/genital area.
There was indeed one - ONE - wound closer to Tabram's genital area, Arch, but it cannot be construed by any stretch of the invagination [sic] to have been a "Ripperesque" wound.

It's worth noting that the other abdominal wounds punctured the spleen, stomach and liver, and hence were concentrated in her upper abdomen. In actual fact, those organs are located just below the ribcage. This is congruent with the killer's having aimed the majority of his "WHUMPs" at the neck and chest regions. He seems to have had little interest in the lower abdomen at all.

[SirRobertAnderson]

.Like the "multiple stabs versus absolutely no stabs at all" or "deep throat cuts versus no cut throat at all" dimensions aren't sufficient reason, Bob? What if a "Whitechapel whore" had been found shot? Pushed under a train? Glassed with a broken bottle? Thrown over a bridge with a rope around her neck? Had her head stoved in with a house-brick?



Let's approach this from another angle.

Do you believe that Martha or Polly was the first offense towards a woman that Jack ever committed?

[Jon Simons]

Hi Sam

The following is from P.Sutcliffe`s police statement. It relates to one of his first murders and could quite easily be Tabram`s killer.

I half expected her to get up and realised I would be in serious trouble. I felt the best way to get out of the mess was to make sure she couldn't tell anyone. I thought to make sure she was dead I would stab her in places like her lungs and throat. I was in a blind panic when I was stabbing her, just to make sure she would not tell anybody. I was very frightened and I can't remember getting back. I thought I was bound to get caught.

[Sam Flynn]

Let's approach this from another angle.

Do you believe that Martha or Polly was the first offense towards a woman that Jack ever committed?I don't. All I'm saying is that the attack on Martha was fundamentally different type of extreme behaviour than that exhibited in the case of Nichols, Chapman etc. This behaviour differs fundamentally not only in terms of its outward manifestation (viz., the kind of wounds inflicted), but also in the physical actions of the killer in producing those wounds, and in the physical sensations that the killer himself would have felt in inflicting them.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam

The following is from P.Sutcliffe`s police statement. It relates to one of his first murders and could quite easily be Tabram`s killer.
Indeed, Jon - and a point well made. However, we tread a thin line here when, on the one hand, "profiling" is (rightly) disparaged, but on the other examples of other serial killers' behaviours are used to suggest that Jack could have behaved in a like manner. I'm not denying that he could have, but frankly I would never use "could have" as justification for implicating him in Tabram's murder, when it shared such little commonality with the eviscerating murders that followed so soon thereafter.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Like the "multiple stabs versus absolutely no stabs at all" or "deep throat cuts versus no cut throat at all" dimensions aren't sufficient reason, Bob? What if a "Whitechapel whore" had been found shot? Pushed under a train? Glassed with a broken bottle? Thrown over a bridge with a rope around her neck? Had her head stoved in with a house-brick?

Hey, I would even be loathe to definitively say JtR wasn't responsible for the Torso murders.

More importantly, people adapt. You do something you've never done before, you like it, and you think after a week or two it'd be even nicer to do it again and further flesh out your fantasies. You act out again and see what stimulates and what repulses. Rinse and repeat until buckled or burnt out.

What is particularly "attractive" about MT is that she fits nicely with the idea that the killings escalated and became more extreme as time went on. There's an upward slope once you connect the dots between Tabrum and Kelly that seems intuitively to make sense here in our little corner of Hell.

[Archaic]

The following is from P.Sutcliffe`s police statement. It relates to one of his first murders and could quite easily be Tabram`s killer.

I half expected her to get up and realised I would be in serious trouble. I felt the best way to get out of the mess was to make sure she couldn't tell anyone. I thought to make sure she was dead I would stab her in places like her lungs and throat. I was in a blind panic when I was stabbing her, just to make sure she would not tell anybody. I was very frightened and I can't remember getting back. I thought I was bound to get caught.

I think this quote of Jon's is a very useful reminder that even expert murderers like serial killers don't start out as expert murderers- in fact, they quite frequently botch their first attempts, often due to their own panicky reactions.
(If you read/watch prison interviews with serial killers they often admit this.)

But after having 'successfully' killed, and gotten whatever sick ego-boost that brings, they become increasingly confident that they "know what to do" and can do it.

As they continue to seek out victims, their desires and fantasies develop futher, giving them a much clearer idea of which particular acts will gratify them the most, and these are the acts they naturally begin to focus upon.

[SirRobertAnderson]

As they continue to seek out victims, their desires and fantasies develop futher, giving them a much clearer idea of which particular acts will gratify them the most, and these are the acts they naturally begin to focus upon.

Thank you for saying far more eloquently what I was groping towards expressing.

Man, as they say, is a learning animal.

[Sam Flynn]

More importantly, people adapt.I don't see this as "adaptation", Bob. It's more of a sea-change.You do something you've never done before, you like it.
You stab someone once, you like it... so you carry on stabbing 38 more times. Next time of asking... no stabs at all?

Scarcely believe!

[Sam Flynn]

expert murderers like serial killers don't start out as expert murderers- in fact, they quite frequently botch their first attempts
...to the tune of 38 stabs more than necessary? I just can't escape the feeling that Tabram's assailant enjoyed the sensation and that, if he were a "serial killer", he'd have indulged himself in like manner previously and/or subsequently to the George Yard murder. The fact that we know of no other multiple stabbings of "whores" in Whitechapel (not even four or five stabs, let alone thirty-plus) from this time speaks volumes.

[How Brown]

Sam:

Sorry for the slow reply and thanks for expressing your take on the Poll statement and subsequent search for this imaginary or real Guardsman conducted by Reid for 42 days to an absolute dead end...even among the same sort of citizens who might have wanted their 15 minutes of fame by simply saying " Yes, I saw the two hooers and the two guardsmen"...but no one did.:nono:

One reason why I have what seems as an over zealous interest in her being a Ripper victim...is not because I have some essay or book planned in which I include her as a Ripper victim and certainly not because I want her to be a Ripper victim....but because I think that the Case is often viewed as beginning ( Not that you do, even if you discount Tabram...) with the Nichols murder and it might be advantageous to "begin" studying the Case in the vicinity of the George Yard area. The 24 day gap between the Tabram and Nichols murder is just two weeks shy of the 40 day gap of the one between Kate and MJK. I see some sort of possible reason for that...which, of course, my dumb ass can't put together yet.:banghead:

One other, seldom ,if ever,mentioned reason is that outside of PC Barrett claiming he saw that guardsman on the night in question...and there was no doubt to me ,nor had there ever been, that Barrett was telling the truth...but there is now...should we simply accept that he DID see someone waiting outside the building?

Barrett's Guardsman never materialized, did he? :playball:

Sammy... combine the fact that two people...one a police officer who is ostensibly doing his duty....and a pross who spent over 1 1/2 hours face to face with a guy...in a bar...over drinks...not with her hiney up in the air just yet... ...and they both can't produce a face ?

Something ain't right,Sam. I think back to Harvey and the possibility which HAS been accepted by some in the field as an example of a cop cooping on the job...or being slightly derelict of duty.



Of course,this doesn't mean that the man who killed Nichols killed Tabram.

Yet, it would demonstrate that within three weeks, for one reason or the other, two maniacs were loosed on the streets of the area when such an event had no precedent.

Back to you,bubs.:kiss:

[Archaic]

Thanks, Sir Robert.

Hi, Sam. I still hold that even a serial killer does not start out as a serial killer. He starts out as a deviant who wants to live out his fantasies and gratify himself. His fantasies are evolving and so are the actions he takes to fulfill them. To put it in very basic terms, his goal is to fulfill his fantasies and urges in a way that maximizes his personal pleasure.

Once he find the 'formula' that works for him, he focuses upon it. But addiction is always subject to the psychological law of 'diminishing returns', which is why 'escalation' becomes a factor.

If the Ripper killed Tabram, he would certainly have learned that in the time it took to stab her 39 times he could have been cutting her instead, and if cutting and removing organs is his deepest fantasy, that's what he would go on to try... perhaps with Polly Nichols... but he didn't quite accomplish the organ removal, perhaps he was interrupted by Cross, so he did it to the next victim, Chapman.

Of course you don't have to agree that the Ripper killed Tabram, no one does, but I think via TV & Movies we have some idea that SK's are so evil and diabolical that they always appear 'fully formed' and I simply don't believe that's true.

In fact, I feel that's giving them a 'stature' they don't deserve.

[SirRobertAnderson]

i The fact that we know of no other multiple stabbings of "whores" in Whitechapel (not even four or five stabs, let alone thirty-plus) from this time speaks volumes.

Of course - the next time he brought the proper tools for the job.

I don't believe for one minute that Jack was born fully formed the night of the Nichols murder.

I for one would argue that all violent murders of prostitutes by strangers need to be regarded as possible Ripper acts and carefully vetted. Some, like Emma Smith, I think we can discard. But definitively toss away Tabrum ?

No way, Jose.

[Sam Flynn]

If the Ripper killed Tabram, he would certainly have learned that in the time it took to stab her 39 times he could have been cutting her instead.
When did he realise that, Arch? After the sixth stab, the nineteenth, the twenty-fifth, the thirty-fourth...?

It sure looks to me that whoever killed Tabram really got into stabbing her. I see no justification - outside a "fiat lux" argument - that he morphed into the slicer who did for Polly Nichols and the rest.

[How Brown]

We know of no other murders of prosses without the use of a knife either in 1888. To me, its always been this argument of how he uses the knife that has divided opinion on the matter...and Archy, many people DO think she was a Ripper victim, then and now.

I agree with Bob and Archy that the killer of Nichols more likely than not had been violent with a woman prior to that night in late August...and may have sprung on some women with no success as with later kills.

What other murder or even assault in the East End could the Tabram murder compare to? If one includes the Smith murder, I wouldn't have problems with that either simply for the savagery of the act. A complete overattemptedkill on the spot sort of assault..

But this is Martha's thread and I shant deviate.

[How Brown]

Sammy:

I get the definite sense from afar of frustration on the Tabram killer's part simply because of the inordinate amount of time spent at the scene committing the stabs...I firmly believe that the killer spent close to 1 and 1/2 minutes there on the landing, prior,during,and after that crime...I could reenact that crime at some point to test it with Nina, but you guys seem to like her.

Seriously...think of the time spent there on the landing. He's probably taken some time to revel in what he's done among other things...and if my hunches are correct, something prevented or discouraged her killer from disemboweling her on the spot. However, I know I cannot prove anything with hunches.

What about the Barrett post Sam ? Whats your take on that idea?

[Sam Flynn]

Of course - the next time he brought the proper tools for the job.
The "cutting knife" as opposed to the "stabbing knife", presumably :) The knife had, after all, been long enough to puncture internal abdominal organs, and sharp enough to pierce the sternum and heart. Surely that would have given him enough encouragement to at least try to get at her innards - if, that is, he was particularly interested in evisceration to begin with, as opposed to punching a vast number of holes into his victim's neck and chest.

[Archaic]

When did he realise that, Arch? After the sixth stab, the nineteenth, the twenty-fifth, the thirty-fourth...?
It sure looks to me that whoever killed Tabram really got into stabbing her. I see no justification - outside a "fiat lux" argument - that he morphed into the slicer who did for Polly Nichols and the rest.

Sam, we have no way of ever knowing when the killer might have realized that... maybe it was days later, who knows?

The point is that he didn't "morph", he clarified his own desires and fantasies and then he sought to fulfill them... that's different.

[Sam Flynn]

We know of no other murders of prosses without the use of a knife either in 1888.I'm not sure whether that's relevant, How, but that aside... we do know that, of those in the WM series that were killed by a knife (1888 included), only three had their guts pulled out, and another (Nichols) who almost got that way. We know of others who had their throats cut, but not all their deaths are unanimously attributed to the Ripper. Against all that, we know of only one multiple stabbing - and, boy oh boy, was that ever "multiple".

[How Brown]

Archy:

I think you might mean "he may not have " morphed...since we both assume without facts that she was a Ripper victim. At this point in time, I would have to concur with SPE and those who usually stand tall in the saddle with N/C/ & E as definite Ripper victims.

In saying that, its our obligation to put forward as many opposing viewpoints in order that Martha gets the nod as a bona fide down the road...

We'll do it too:high5:

Or beat Sammy up.:kiss:

[How Brown]

Lots of ways to skin a cat & prostitute,Sam.....like by gun,fists, broken bottle, another sharp instrument, you name it...

[Archaic]

Hi, How.

Everything I'm expressing about Tabram being a potential Ripper victim is of course my own opinion; I've stated that a number of times. But I don't think I agree with you that "we are assuming (Tabram as a Ripper victim) without the facts". That's something I strive to avoid. I've never "assumed" she was a Ripper victim; it's my reasoned opinion. I may change that opinion some day, but this is how I see things at the moment.

I still believe that the killer did not "morph" (as Sam put it), nor did he appear fully formed like some evil cartoon character. He evolved... "devolved" is perhaps more appropriate.

[Mrs.Fiddymont]

I'm thinking more and more that Tabram might have been an "early" Ripper victim.

I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to her at first because most people seemed to discount her as a victim, but now I am seriously beginning to wonder.

Definitely going to do a lot of reading up on Martha Tabram!

[How Brown]

Dear Archaic:

My error. I do think she was a victim, by the way, with or without this murder presenting all the hallmarks that the subsequent murders contained. When we chat it up at times, not just the two of us either, we obviously can't go back and immediately restate our intended remarks or points without waiting for the other person to respond. I know you have a reasonable approach to Tabram. I know you do not fly by the ass of your pants and I know you are a very good judge of serial killer behavior as well as many other positive things.

What I orignally meant to say was incorrectly phrased and my previous post should be disregarded specifically because we are on the same page.

When you say he "didn't morph", I immediately wanted to stress that there's no way of ascertaining what he did either way. I fully understand that you are very objective, but in fairness, you seem to be inferring that we do or you definitely know, without the facts, whether he did or didn't. This is what I meant when I stated..."I think you might mean "he may not have " morphed...since we both assume without facts that she was a Ripper victim .......I hope this is understood.:kiss:

When I responded that the only clear cut committed-by-the-same-killer murders in my view and in the view of some others, not just SPE, were N/C &E....it was specifically because the same modus operandi is present or as close as it can come to a case of one murder being identifiable with any of the other two within the set of three.

How