It was his hobby....

[Instructor 173]

Look, some guys collect butterflies. Others collect coins or stamps. Still others collect antique cars, antique firearms and so on. Jack collected body parts, bits of bloody cloth and even some coins from the women that he killed. What's so hard to understand??? Doesn't just about EVERY serial killer collect SOMETHING from their victims??? On a foggy night in old London, Jack could snuggle up in front of a warm fire, peruse his books, old photographs and memorabilia from his murder scenes. Jack's way of thinking would be, "Hey. It's not like I killed anybody important..." Then he'd probably try to justify his actions with, "At least I had some fun..."

So, to better understand killers you have got to learn to think like them, understand where they're coming from and understand where they're going. The best way to the enlightenment above is actually talk to them. Pick their brains. But you also need to understand that you are dealing with a bomb in human form walking around on two legs. If he gets the chance and gets you alone, he'll kill you too. How many of us, besides me, can actually say that they've talked to more than one killer? Raise your hands...

Let me give you a clue... Killers think and react to what's in front of them. When you do get the chance to talk to them, most of them never blame themselves for anything wrong. Most of them will blame the victims that they've killed. Killers plan, scheme and connive. They will lie in a heartbeat. They will play mindgames. Sorting the truth from the killers' fantasties is a very challenging task. Go talk to a homicide detective from a bigger city or police department. He can tell you things that you would never believe in a million years about killers.:thumb:

[WRITEFX]

I've spoken to some killers too, grew up with them.

[How Brown]

Dear Instructor:

Whenever possible...and since you have had the experience of being in actual physical contact with killers,unlike most of us whose only contact is through reading about them or seeing them on documentaries...if you have the time to expand on these people and some of the common traits or in fact, the idiosyncrasies they have...please do so at your leisure. I for one woule find it very enlightening...as one or even a combination of more than one killer you have met could possibly be a mirror image of Jack The Ripper.

Thanks for this thread starter...

[Instructor 173]

WriteFX, How did you end up talking to some killers? I had to do it because it was part of my old job. I wasn't comfortable talking to many of these people when I first started. Gradually, I began, over the years, to try to communicate a little more with them. Some of them ended up being killers because of tough curcumstances.

One guy I talked to when I first got to work in our old jail had grown up on the proverbial "wrong side of town." He had been raised in an area of run down houses where prostitutes plied their trade from houses with red lights in the windows. The guy had basically been forced to fight to survive so he had no chances at a "normal life." One day he was in a bar while he was packing a .380 semi-automatic pistol. He routinely carried his gun for self defense. Another guy who was packing a .25 semi-automatic pistol challenged the first guy. The two men actually walked into a tiny bathroom, drew their guns and exchanged fire inside the confines of that small bathroom. The guy with the .380 was hit five times out of 7 by fire from the .25 caliber pistol. The guy with the .380 lived to go to the hospital and survived to go to prison. The guy who had the .25 caliber pistol got hit 4 times and was dead at the scene. That guy died lying on the floor of a dirty bathroom in a dingy bar. The guy who had used the .380 was the one that I got to talk to while he was in our jail waiting to go to prison. The guy was charged with 1st degree murder but it got reduced down to manslaughter or a lesser murder offense in the trial/conviction. In a nutshell, the guy told me about being raised in the bad neighborhood. How his mother was a prostitute. How he never knew anything at all about his father. He even told me that he actually sort of "looked forward" to going to prison because there he might be able to finish his high school education and would have a more structured life. As I remember him, he never really regretted killing the other guy. He just sort of accepted what happened as a natural part of things. Sort of like, "Well, today I HAD to kill another person. Maybe tomorrow I won't have to kill anybody..."

Another one that I got to talk to I knew before he was a killer. The guy had been in our jail previously for a burglary. He had been given probation and so many months in our jail. He did his months and got out to start his probation time. The guy was out on probation when he moved in with a girl. One day he and the girl had an argument. The girl made the guy real mad so he took a hammer to her head. The guy whacked the girl in the head about 6 times and killed her out of anger. After that he sort of walked around for awhile and then eventually called the police to tell them what he had done. The guy ended up sentenced to a double digit term in prison for manslaughter or something. What I remember most about the guy was that on the morning that he was being transported to prison, he asked if I could stop by to see him off. The guy had no family and not many friends. What he asked wasn't too much so I stopped by at the jail just before they took him away. I heard later that he got out of prison and had changed. He had moved out of state and got a job in manufacturing double paned windows or something. I never heard any more out of him after that.

There were a number of others that I got to talk to for one reason or another.

I had one guy, a previously convicted murderer that had done his time and gotten out on parole. He had been out on parole for about 6 years when he decided to pull a home invasion while armed with a sawed off shotgun. The guy picked the WRONG HOUSE to try his home invasion. The suspect goes up to the door of the house, wearing a stocking over his face and knocks on the door. He's carrying the shotgun in his hands. He pushes his way into the house when a woman opens the door. He forces the woman to the floor of the house as she's screaming. The woman's husband, a WW2 marine out of the Pacific fighting, charges into the room, takes the gun away from the suspect and hits the suspect in the head with the gun. The marine hit the suspect so hard with the gun that the gun breaks into two pieces. My partner and I get there and take over the evidence, statments and arrest of the suspect. After we read the suspect his Miranda Warning he agrees to talk to us without an attorney present. The guy tells us about being out of prison for the murder charge and then he tells us that his wife is very, very sick. The guy tells us that in orde for his wife to live she needs a very expensive operation. He supposedly tried everything that he could but there is no way that he can afford for her to get the operation. He knows from past experience that if he goes back to prison that his wife will be able to sign up for public assistance and that she will then be able to get public assistance to pay for her operation. My partner looked at the suspect and directly asked him, "Did you pull this home invasion deliberately so that you could go to prison so your wife can sign up for public aid to get an operation?" The suspect says, "Yep. That's exactly why I did the home invasion." That had to be the screwiest reason that I have ever heard for committing a crime. I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. :offinhead:

There are all sorts of other guys that I talked to about why they did what they did. More later on.

[SirRobertAnderson]

How many of us, besides me, can actually say that they've talked to more than one killer? Raise your hands...



I've always wondered if we haven't talked to a few online on places like the Forums and the Casebook.

[WRITEFX]

Hi Instructor, it was interesting reading your latest post.

I knew the people because I was friends with them since I was small.

A group of girls (aged 15 at the time of their 'reign of terror') ended up at correctional facilities then prison.

At the same time a group of boys (age 15 too) told me they were going to attack and gang rape a girl I also knew. They threatened me to keep quiet. I still feel guilty about it.

Both the girls and the boys all lived in a nice area and most were were from very respectable middle class families with nice homes. One lived very near me. However, there was something 'unclean' about them to put a finer point on it, and I used to shiver being around them.

One boy I reckon fits the psychopath profile (torturing and killing animals) when he was young. He went onto the human variety when older and had got into big trouble.

I was friends with some of the girls after they came out from prison - there was a big change about them and that 'evil' type of aura that surrounded them had gone.

Why were they like it? One i knew had a big grudge against society and parents (I don't want to go into details here) the others had strange sexual activities and were 'odd' in my eyes I don't know if others saw them the same as me. But then I was someone who always 'knew' things about people because of my own experiences.

Then I had a b/f who had been in prison before I knew him and was also on the run at the time I was going out with him so before mobile phones you can imagine how hard it was for us to meet! One night he rang me to say that he and his friends had discovered something terrible about another friend and they were on the way to kill him. I was hoping that it was a joke but it wasn't - in the papers too. Later that b/f asked me to marry him and was stunned that I refused LOL

That's just a few of the rather dodgy friends that I used to have, some were even worse than the above! Perhaps I ought to write a book :lol:

All a long time ago thank goodness!

[Chris G.]

Look, some guys collect butterflies. Others collect coins or stamps. Still others collect antique cars, antique firearms and so on. Jack collected body parts, bits of bloody cloth and even some coins from the women that he killed. . . .

Hi Instructor

Actually we don't know for sure that Jack took coins from the women. I assume that he did, that he robbed them as well as killed them, but there is no proof of it. A supposition based on the fact that the women didn't have any money on them when they were discovered, except maybe for Chapman and the farthings. So it seems reasonable to suppose he took whatever money they had, including taking his own money back that he presumably paid them before going to the spot to commit the solicited act.

As I say, there is the question of the farthings at the Chapman murder scene, if that story is true... and it might be a myth, a confusion with another murder case.

We certainly don't know that the killer took "bits of bloody cloth" -- we know he took the corner of Eddowes' apron, that's all that we know the killer took from any of the women, apart from body parts.

Chris

[Instructor 173]

Chris,

The idea of what I was trying to get across was that JtR and other serial killers generally took souvenirs from the victims. I agree that JtR may not have actually taken bits of cloth, coins or such BUT it does get people to thinking about what JtR MIGHT have ACTUALLY taken away with him from the murder scenes. It drew a response from you to rightly correct what most people think is the normal items that JtR may or may not have taken away with him. However, I tend to think that there may be room for more thought as to what he DID take away with him. In addition, I'm hoping that this thread will draw out more people to talk about their experiences with people who did become killers in some fashion. I think that there is more to becoming a killer/serial killer that we can uncover by discussions on boards like this one. I'd almost bet that if all the people who come to this board think back long and hard that they will remember "that one person" many years ago that they knew who killed somebody else. What I'm hoping to do is spark memories and extract ideas about what other people know, suspect or think about killers, serial killers and JtR. Overall, I have two things that I wish to accomplish: 1. To contribute where I can in my own small way and 2. To learn from others who contribute here. I have always thought that JtR was an interesting part of history that we need to analyze in greater depth. Now that I have that out of the way...

Chris, I know that you're a writer and an in-depth thinker. Maybe you can help explain something to me?

Every time that there is a mass murder or spree killing, like what happened at Virginia Tech, Columbine and so on, why is it that so many "great minds" miss the obvious? Instead of focusing on the violence perpetrated by PEOPLE why is it that they blame THINGS or CONDITIONS for the mass murders? I just don't understand that reaction. If an elderly man uses a car to kill 6 people by running them down, the "great minds" of the area will blame:

1. car manufacturers
2. the man's age factor (After all he is 87 years old, etc.)
3. they will blame the accident on the fact that the car did or did not have tinted windows
4. they blame everything ELSE like grey aliens, Elvis Presley look-alikes or sasquatch for what happened instead of blaming the man who did the killing. Why is that?

With Columbine and Virginia Tech they blame guns, Cho's mental health problems or the killers' anti-social mental health issues at Columbine or they blame violence on a lack of anti-gun laws. Why can't they learn that we NEED to control, help treat or imprison bad people or people who need mental health treatment? Why can't the people who perform the violence or possible potential violence be held ACCOUNTABLE for their conduct?

Oh, and what do you think that JtR DID take away from the murder scenes with him?

[Chris G.]

Hi again Instructor 173

Yes of course Jack might routinely taken various things from the women but as I cautioned we can't be sure that he did. You have probably seen the very long list of possessions that Kate Eddowes had on her person. Old Jacky possibly could have pinched a few things and made off with them and she would still have been left with a long inventory of bits and pieces on her person. However, countering whether he did take anything from Kate besides the kidney and uterus is the time element.

Don Rumbelow, himself a former City of London beat police officer, made the point at the Maybrick Trial in Liverpool in May that one of the things that makes him doubt the authenticity of the Diary has to do with timing. For him it was not only the official sounding listish wording in the Diary "tin matchbox empty" but that Jack would not have had time in between the police beats in and out of Mitre Square to go through her pockets in addition to everything he had to do in killing and mutilating Eddowes.

Nonetheless, as I have stated, I think it a fair bet that he did grab things as keepsakes from the women when he had the time to do so. As you say, that is a characteristic of serial killers, to take jewelry and other souvenirs from their victims to remind them of the thrill of the kill. I have also long believed that Jacky boy was most probably a giftgiver, vide the "jolly new bonnet" that Polly Nichols received on the night of her murder and the bandanas or scarfs that might have been given to several of the victims.

Chris

[Caroline Morris]

Hi All,

I wonder too if there may have been an element of 'exchange' going on? He leaves something of his with a victim, to stamp his identity on the body, albeit anonymously, then takes something of theirs in exchange, to have for a keepsake?

Call it a double thrill, just for jolly. :eek:

Love,

Caz
X

[Chris G.]

Hi All,

I wonder too if there may have been an element of 'exchange' going on? He leaves something of his with a victim, to stamp his identity on the body, albeit anonymously, then takes something of theirs in exchange, to have for a keepsake?

Call it a double thrill, just for jolly. :eek:

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz

A double thrill or just a bit of give and take? :)

Chris

[Instructor 173]

Another thing that I've noticed about people who kill other people is that SOME killers are actually bothered by what they did. The murder actually haunts them. What this means is that if the right person comes along and plants a seed of an idea, the killer will eventually confess because the killing he did bothers him. So, Caroline, yes, some killings do allow for an exchange of sorts. A mental exchange in which a killer's conscious can bother him later on. What was funny was that the guy who planted the seed in the killer's mind that I remember did so quite by accident and it STILL paid off later. Right out of the blue came the killer's confession which ended up with his arrest and the arrest of two other men.

I guess that the one thing that I would probably say is that all murders and murderers are different from what we perceive them to be. Our perceptions of murders and murderers is not always right because of past influences like television and Hollywood movies. This means that we need to keep an open mind when we do our investigations. For example, one thing I would bet on is that Jack the Ripper probably carried a gun with him when he was killing prostitutes. Here's the way I see it: The Ripper was out to kill prostitutes. He did his killing with a sharp knife BUT, JUST IN CASE, he probably carried a gun with him. Back in 1888 the British people were legally allowed to carry and own guns. I tend to think that the Ripper also owned or carried a gun on him just in case he needed to shoot his way out of being arrested. Why not? He was blatantly violating the law against murder so violating more laws, such as shooting an officer trying to arrest him, wouldn't be anything that he would hesitate to do. The Ripper if he were caught was probably bound to hang for murdering women, why not also swing for killing a cop who was trying to arrest him? As such, this idea of mine will probably disturb the perceptions of many as the Ripper being a killer who ONLY used a knife for his dirty work.

[Chris G.]

. . . one thing I would bet on is that Jack the Ripper probably carried a gun with him when he was killing prostitutes. Here's the way I see it: The Ripper was out to kill prostitutes. He did his killing with a sharp knife BUT, JUST IN CASE, he probably carried a gun with him.

Well, maybe. I would not bet on that though.

Chris

[A.P. Wolf]

Caz, my dear girl, that is exactly my thought too, that the man introduced items into the exchange rather than took them away.
We gotta think 'helter skelter' here.
The little broken bits of mirror, and bars of soap... oh, but I wash you clean, and your image is perfect in every way, when I look at shattered glass; all becomes clear.
Like I cut myself shaving.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Hi All,

I wonder too if there may have been an element of 'exchange' going on? He leaves something of his with a victim, to stamp his identity on the body, albeit anonymously,

Love,

Caz
X

Like an empty tinbox ? :jaw:

[Caroline Morris]

Not necessarily, Sir Robert. But our intrepid diarist may have had such a thing in mind. :juggle:

Love,

Caz
X

[Instructor 173]

Want to win a bar bet? Here's the question to ask, "What do Charles Manson and Richard Speck, other than being murderers, have in common?"


Answer: Both Speck AND Manson were booked into and housed at the Peoria County Jail in Peoria, Ill.

When Manson was headed west through the midwest he passed through Peoria, Il., and tried to steal something. Manson was booked into the jail for theft. After Speck killed the nurses, his trial was moved from Chicago to Peoria. While he was in Peoria he was booked into and housed at the Peoria County Jail too. So both killers have jail files at the Peoria County Jail.

One of the interesting aspects of Richard Speck is that he was an accomplished artist. While he was held at the Peoria County Jail, Speck did a number of paintings. When he was through with the paintings, he'd give them away. Right now, in Peoria, there are at least 6 Richard Speck paintings somewhere in the town. Recently in the local paper, the Peoria Journal Star, an article was run in which a former sergeant at the jail, a man named Harry Miller, showed one of his Speck paintings. Speck was known by the jail staff for his caricature paintings of him, the judge and so on. He is known to have done one painting which showed the judge at his trial sitting on a bench holding a rope which dropped down in a noose around the neck of a duck. The duck's face was painted to be Speck's own face. It was Speck's way of saying that he felt like "a dead duck."
Speck was not allowed to mix with other inmates. He was kept all alone in a tier by himself. There was a 20 cell row (tier) in which he was only person there. Because of his status and a previous, he was kept under a jail watch 24/7. A jail officer sat in a chair outside of the tier for his entire 8 hours and did nothing but watch over Speck.

I never did get to meet, help secure or escort either Speck or Manson when they were at the Peoria County Jail. I did, however, get to talk to quite a number of the officers who DID escort Speck and Manson to and from court. Most of the officers from that time period were from "the old school." They were good men who were tough as nails and brave as could be. Most of them, not all though, had sort of previously checkered pasts. One guy who was a deputy sheriff from that era once told me that he had years before actually been "a bag man" for a previous sheriff. In other words, he collected bribes for the sheriff that were put into a black bag. Another man had once been arrested for "suspicion of murder" but that charge had been dropped. At the range guys would kid about him not being able to qualify because he didn't have a silencer on the end of his gun and it was lack of weight from the missing silencer that was throwing off his shooting. They were all interesting characters who meant well. Most of them had very keen senses of humor and did things...well...in their own way. I once heard about one of the oldtimers who caught a couple of trespassers on some stripmine land. He confronted the men. They admitted the errors of their way and were cooperative. Just because the two trespassers were so cooperative and nice, the oldtime deputy "held court right there in the field." As a result, the oldtimer found the two men guilty of trespass and fined each of them $25.00 apiece. The men paid the fine and left the area. About three months later the lightbulb goes on in the head of one of the trespassers. I get this call where the guy asks, "Can a deputy sheriff fine people guilty of trespass and give them a fine in the field?" After the former trespasser explained what had happened, I got to laughing so hard because I knew that he had been hoodwinked. The former trespasser could only stutter when I asked him, "What would you have done IF the oldtimer had sentenced you to prison?" I got this mental image of the trespasser walking up to the doors of a prison and saying, "Hi. I'm here to do my time in your prison for trespassing..." :whistle:

[A.P. Wolf]

Why is it always a black bag?
In my days we used to do this stuff with brown paper envelopes... 'ere you go, son, 'ere's your whack.'
'Thank's very much governer.'

As a cleansed and upright member of the business community who does a lot of money dealings I can tell you that these so called 'black bags' are actually blue bags.

[Raven]

How many of us, besides me, can actually say that they've talked to more than one killer? Raise your hands...

Let me give you a clue... Killers think and react to what's in front of them. When you do get the chance to talk to them, most of them never blame themselves for anything wrong. Most of them will blame the victims that they've killed. Killers plan, scheme and connive. They will lie in a heartbeat. They will play mindgames. Sorting the truth from the killers' fantasties is a very challenging task. Go talk to a homicide detective from a bigger city or police department. He can tell you things that you would never believe in a million years about killers.:thumb:

Hi Instructor, I worked with murderers on a daily basis for 6 years, I agree, there is a mindset - I found certain individuals were playing to the gallery and telling you what they thought you wanted to hear about their crimes - only one person in 6 years was honest enough to admit he had absolutely no remorse about what he had done - that was bloody scary!

[ferret]

Hi chaps!
The trophy thing is rather disturbing.....Re Fred West etc Hmmmm OK the odd bones are disturbing enough but the 'insides' are something different!

[Lyn Resthal]

Killers think and react to what's in front of them. When you do get the chance to talk to them, most of them never blame themselves for anything wrong. Most of them will blame the victims that they've killed. Killers plan, scheme and connive. They will lie in a heartbeat. They will play mindgames. Sorting the truth from the killers' fantasties is a very challenging task. Go talk to a homicide detective from a bigger city or police department. He can tell you things that you would never believe in a million years about killers.:thumb:

I've known two people charged with (both of them later making plea bargains of guilty to) murder; both of them on a personal level, and before their respective arrests. One, a neighbour, I knew for more than two years before hearing radio news headlines one morning that he had been arrested, had been a fugitive for at least seven years, was wanted for murdering his wife a number of years before, and that the investigation was being handled by the State's Violent Fugitive Task Force and FBI. (It was quite a shock.) I don't know that I'd ever have guessed that he wasn't the person I knew him to be. I received a letter from him shortly after he was incarcerated, which began with, as best I can recall after so many years now, an apology for the shock that learning the truth about him must have been, and for lying to me. He professed considerable remorse for his crime, and said he'd come to terms with the fact that he needed to serve his sentence. We exchanged a few letters, but at the time I didn't really know what to say to him. I wasn't yet as interested in criminology.. so I never did learn any details other than those few mentioned on the news. Our letters were just the average "how we were doing". We eventually lost touch, but I learned a year or so ago that he had been released from jail and was living once again in the same community.

The other guy equally shocked me, if not even more so. I've beaten myself up many times since learning of his murderous rampage, wondering why I didn't see any tell-tale signs, but I've reached the conclusion (from a letter he wrote to me from jail) that he was one of those "time bombs" and any intervention might well have resulted in murder one way or another anyway, and perhaps with more victims. Before the event, certainly in my presence, he was, I suppose, one hell of a con-artist. The letter I received from him, and those that he's written to others, seem to indicate that. His letters consist of blame towards everyone but himself; from the victim, to his ex-girlfriend, to society, to the cat.. resulting in rather a long list. His reasons for committing murder, also quite lengthy, again blame all of the above. He shows no remorse whatsoever in anything he writes. His only regret, he has said, is that he's now stuck in jail. I personally have no desire to hear from him again. Not even to better understand criminology.

Apologies, that last paragraph wasn't the most eloquent. It's still very difficult for me to get my head around.