Contemporary Myths--Post 1959

[How Brown]

I selected 1959 as a starting point/year...as this was the year Dan Farson came across the MacNaghten Memoranda...and from whence three godawful suspects were foisted upon the body of Ripperology in the forms of Ostrog,Kosminski,and Druitt.

The MM isn't a contemporary "myth" ,of course...but it too contains inaccuracies as to the three suspects mentioned within it and that some of the post-1959 Ripperologists who are still active in the field spent ample time assessing,removing and subsequently correcting the gaffes in the 1894 document.



Would anyone care to begin with one or more myths...suspect,aspect, or evidentiary....and lets see where we wind up.

Thank you.

[Robert Linford]

How, I suppose that one myth which by now has been thoroughly debunked, is that there is somewhere in the Scotland Yard files a higely damning and embarrassing document which the authorities would rather were never seen. This appears not to be the case.

Robert

[How Brown]

Robert:

You're referring to Tom Cullen's views on the "stashed" documents,are you not,sor?

Here's one that may or may not be a post-1959 myth....that of a prospective client being able to entice a prostitute with a day old piece of bread.

How in the world would a prostitute barter stale bread for a night in the doss house and much more importantly...for a glass of gin or pint of beer?

[Robert Linford]

Yes, if I was a woman a piece of bread wouldn't sway me - particularly if Kosminski had just been handling it.

Then again, all the victims wre supposed to have spoken with Cockney accents. But would Stride have done? Or Kelly? Or Eddowes?

[Sam Flynn]

Here's one that may or may not be a post-1959 myth....that of a prospective client being able to entice a prostitute with a day old piece of bread.
Didn't that one first appear in People of the Abyss?

Chapter 6: "Those women there", said our guide, "will sell themselves for thruppence, or tuppence, or a loaf of stale bread."
How in the world would a prostitute barter stale bread for a night in the doss house
If she were sufficiently small, How, and the loaf sufficiently large, she could carve herself a bivouac and sleep the night in yeasty comfort. The attached photo of Annie Chapman's honeymoon suite at Windsor confirms that this practice was quite common:

http://www.btinternet.com/~gareth.h.williams/images/windsor.jpg

...obviously, a fish-eye lens was used for this, which distorts the picture somewhat. Annie Chapman was, as we know, less than 14" high. (My thanks to Neal Shelden for the pic, by the way.)

[How Brown]

Sammy...


Thanks a million old man.

I suppose that Jack London is to be credited with the fable/fact of stale bread. Good find.

[Sam Flynn]

No problemo, Howard.

Of course, the "stale bread" canard casts a certain amount of doubt over the "tuppence/thruppence" bit as well - about which Colin Roberts rightly took me to task over on Casebook recently.

[Jimmy]

Funny you should bring this up, How

I met Phil Hutchinson today in Whitechapel and we had a quick chat (and I mean quick - he was tour guiding) about McCormick myths - his book was also published in 1959 was it not?

Farson's book didn't appear until 1972, but didn't his TV show, broadcast in 1959, hint at what was in the MM?

Anyway, I'd like to know where the myth that Mary Kelly's entrails were hung on picture hooks came from. I've no idea myself.

:loco:JB

PS
Sam Flynn,
Your image has a Python-era Terry Gilliam quality to it.
Genius.

JB

[Robert Linford]

Jimmy, it was at least as early as 1889.


http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/pall_mall_gazette/18891104.html (http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/pall_mall_gazette/18891104.html)

[How Brown]

Jimmy:

Yes sir,McCormick's book came out in 1959.

One other possible myth ( maybe it doesn't belong here...) is in regard to the murderer of Stride being disturbed by Diemshutz's cart n' horse. Maybe something else disturbed the Ripper a little earlier than we assume. Its not important,of course....but it seems to be an across the board "belief" that this is why Stride's killer stopped before he possibly intended to mutilate her.

[Robert Linford]

Another myth : fog.

[Jimmy]

Oooh, another one...

The film 'Jack the Ripper' came out in 1959 too, with your typical iconic Ripper and busty young victims.

JB

[How Brown]

Folks...

I might be out of my tits on this one,but I think that the unproven article(s) of faith that J.K. Stephen,Montague Druitt and Prince Albert Victor were homosexuals is fairly modern,ain't it?

[Robert Linford]

Poor Druitt would settle for homosexual given some of the things he's been called.

[Chris G.]

Folks...

I might be out of my tits on this one,but I think that the unproven article(s) of faith that J.K. Stephen,Montague Druitt and Prince Albert Victor were homosexuals is fairly modern,ain't it?

Hi all

This might have come about as much because of the rather fey looking photographs of the gents. But photographs might be misleading and it could be that neither was a homosexual, despite contemporary rumors of PAV's involvement in Cleveland Street, seemingly supported by coded references to him in official documents at the Public Record Office in 1975 -- see Wikipedia entry on the prince (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Albert_Victor,_Duke_of_Clarence). Now does Wiki mean the coded references refer to the Prince's involvement in the scandal or just to references about the swirling rumors? ("Rumours swept upper class London of the Prince's involvement, and official papers on the case released by the Public Record Office in 1975 make coded reference to this." ??? )

This is the same prince of the realm who is said to have fathered illegitimate children... so how gay was he???

And the rumors equally about Monty -- which as you say may have been generated in modern times not back then. I wonder if Monty's reputed gayness might be as much because he was not married and seemingly had no female love interest, played cricket with other men (is that all he played? :rolleyes:) and that he taught at an all-male school. Well that might have just meant he was a loner and liked male company... which doesn't automatically make him gay.

It might be also mentioned that homosexuality was both a hush hush and a hot topic in Britain in the 1950's and early 1960's as the British government wrestled with the prickly cactus of legalizing sexual relations between consenting males.

Chris

[John Savage]

Hi Chris,

I believe that reference is made to "PAV" in the case papers of the Cleveland Street Scandal. It seems that the accusation came from either Lord Alfred Somerset or his solicitor; considering the somewhat unorthodox methods of Newton I think I would put my money on him.

The accustation of PAV's involvement may have been true, or simply a tactic by Somerset and/or Newton to muddy the waters and keep Lord Alfred out of the case. Either way the rumours about Eddie's sexuality can certainly be traced back to the 1880's.

Rgds
John

[Caroline Morris]

...as the British government wrestled with the prickly cactus of legalizing sexual relations between consenting males.

Chris

Now there's an image I would sooner not conjure with, Chris... :eek:

Love,

Caz
X

[Chris G.]

Hi Chris,

I believe that reference is made to "PAV" in the case papers of the Cleveland Street Scandal. It seems that the accusation came from either Lord Alfred Somerset or his solicitor; considering the somewhat unorthodox methods of Newton I think I would put my money on him.

The accustation of PAV's involvement may have been true, or simply a tactic by Somerset and/or Newton to muddy the waters and keep Lord Alfred out of the case. Either way the rumours about Eddie's sexuality can certainly be traced back to the 1880's.

Rgds
John

Thanks for that information, John.

Chris

[Mike Raney]

Prince Albert Victor was believed to be homosexual by Queen Victoria herself. After her death, Baby Bea, her youngest daughter and acting secretary changed (actually rewrote) some of her Majesty's diaries, removing or correcting any entry that might be construed as immoral about the family. Homosexuality amongst Queen Victorias kith and kin was very widespread. The Russian nobles seemed to accept it as a part of life. The German's were more discrete than the Russians and the English were the most discrete of all. It was defintiely discussed by the contemporary nobles.

Mikey

[How Brown]

It needs to be mentioned that within the first post of the thread that regardless of what the dope who started this thread feels, Ostrog,Kosminski,and Druitt are not contemporary "myths" but just suspects mentioned by Macnaghten...nothing more or nothing less.

What should have been stressed in regard to these 3 individuals are the inaccuracies endemic to the MM about them.

Back to the thread.

[WRITEFX]

Robert:

You're referring to Tom Cullen's views on the "stashed" documents,are you not,sor?

Here's one that may or may not be a post-1959 myth....that of a prospective client being able to entice a prostitute with a day old piece of bread.

How in the world would a prostitute barter stale bread for a night in the doss house and much more importantly...for a glass of gin or pint of beer?




Strangely enough I think they would accept bread as I was looking up the price of a loaf those days and a large one was equivalent to a manual worker's daily wage in some places.

Another interpretation of this could be working for 'daily bread' as in the Lord's prayer.

[Sam Flynn]

Here's one that may or may not be a post-1959 myth....that of a prospective client being able to entice a prostitute with a day old piece of bread.

Strangely enough I think they would accept bread as I was looking up the price of a loaf those days and a large one was equivalent to a manual worker's daily wage in some places.

Another interpretation of this could be working for 'daily bread' as in the Lord's prayer.
This famous sentence pre-dates 1959 by some 55 years, and comes directly from Jack London: "Those women there," said our guide, "will sell themselves for thru'pence, or tu'pence, or a loaf of stale bread." (People of the Abyss, Chapter 6).

The guide in question was taking Jack London through "Itchy Park" at the time, and "those women" were specifically the unemployed homeless, of all ages, who were sleeping on the benches in the park.

In its original context, therefore, it's noteworthy that the phrase does not refer specifically to prostitutes. That being the case, WRITEFX's suggestion that they might be prepared to sell their labour - as opposed to their bodies - for a bit of bread might not be too wide of the mark.

[Caroline Morris]

But would the unemployed homeless of all ages in Itchy Park have been specifically women, Sam?

The observation that those women would sell themselves for next to nothing tends to imply their bodies rather than their labour, if the park dwellers also included men and boys.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

Indeed, Caz - although I don't think the phrase was ever meant to be taken literally anyway. To extrapolate what was almost certainly a turn of phrase on the part of London's guide into a belief that some prostitutes "charged" a loaf of stale bread for their services is stretching a point too far, I feel.

It was never realistically going to work, when you think about it:

Prostitute: Ello, dearie!
Customer: Gawd's troof! You're mingin'
Prostitute: You ain't no hoil-paintin' yersewf!
Customer: Fair do's. Ar much then?
Prostitute: You got thru'pence?
Customer: Naaah.
Prostitute: You got twopence?
Customer: Gawd bless ya', I ain't got no money.
Prostitute: Nuffink at all?
Customer: Naaah, not really. Ere! Wait a minute!
Prostitute: Wot?
Customer: I got 'alf a round of 'Ovis in me pocket. It's rock 'ard, but will that do?
Prostitute: Got any butter to go wiv it?
Customer: Naaah, but I fink I got some cheese in 'ere somewheres...
Prostitute: Skip the cheese, and I'll unbutton yer flies if yer don't mind...

[Robert Linford]

Here's the Dad's Army version :

PROS : 'Ow much you willing to pay, me old china?

GODFREY : I have no money. But I have some of my sister Dolly's cucumber sandwiches.

PROS : Done, if yer don't mind getting the clap.

GODFREY : Oh dear! Well, I have some ointment for wasp stings.....

[Caroline Morris]

Well I wasn't really thinking of it in terms of a 'going rate' as such. I thought it was a way of observing that some of these women were so desperate that they had but one decision left to make in life: to sell their bodily assets for the price of their next meal or to go without and face the real risk of starvation.

But I do appreciate the humour - even if they would not have. :eek:

This woman's off for cocktails... :bolt:

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert Linford]

Let's not forget Jane Coram's bread pudding. You can make a lot from a stale loaf.

[R.J.Palmer]

I'm just now seeing this for the first time:

How, I suppose that one myth which by now has been thoroughly debunked, is that there is somewhere in the Scotland Yard files a highly damning and embarrassing document which the authorities would rather were never seen. This appears not to be the case.

Robert

For the sake of argument, how can we be certain that this has been debunked?

It's not uncommon for bureaucrats to purge any files that cast them in a bad light. I have a friend who worked for a government agency, and he confirmed that it 'went on.' There's currently a flap in the U.S. about the C.I.A. destroying unflattering documents.

How can we be certain that some of the 'missing documents' weren't deliberately destroyed by senior officials at the Met? Call me paranoid, but at times I think I can smell roses in the MEPO files, which might mean I'm being led down the garden path.

[Robert Linford]

Hi RJ

But that's just it : if they've been purged then they're no longer in the files.
I'm not denying that the files might have been doctored, and it's also possible that some important document has been misfiled and will yet turn up to throw a new light on the case. But as for the files that SPE and Keith Skinner went through, well, the old belief that the name of the killer would be found therein, with a royal or upper-class connection thrown in, has been debunked.

Robert

[R.J.Palmer]

Ah, I see what you're saying, Robert. Circa, 1972 the belief was that Eddy might have 'dunnit' 'and that this would be 'revealed' by the opening of the files.

And now that they've been opened, we know that Warren was much too clever to leave those documents behind when he cleaned-out his desk.

:-)

[Caroline Morris]

Hi RJ,

Not trying to pick and choose our cover-up theories, are we? ;)

If it's a road to nowhere to suggest that papers we don't know ever existed, which pointed to Jack's identity, may have been destroyed, there's no fork in that road with a signpost to Lesser Nowhere.

Love,

Caz
X

[Big Jon]

Bump up!

[How Brown]

Scratch the stupid comment made in the original post....two of the men mentioned aren't "godawful" suspects in reality...you'll have to forgive the guy who blurted that out.:tape:

[Big Jon]

Which two would that be How?