Harris in Ripper Notes #1 March 2000

[How Brown]

Melvin Harris's March 2000 Interview from Ripper Notes.

The themes within the interview are as follows...

A. D'onston "mentions" his only degree being bestowed upon him in New York....according to Harris.

Fact: D'onston claims he had a degree BEFORE he went off with Garibaldi in 1860 within the O'Donnell...yet Harris infers this imaginary degree came some years later ( 1869 )...and evidently forgets the mention within the O'Donnell.

B. The logo for the Pompadour Cosmetique Co. was selected by D'onston and indicates a "crucified woman cut off at the genitals"...

Fact: No one knows who selected the logo...and it does not give anyone I know this impression of a woman "cut off at the genitals" unless you want it to appear that way.

C. Its mentioned that "the most likely date" for D'onston's adventures in the Old West "gold mining" came during 1869 or shortly afterwards.

Fact: There's no evidence that D'onston ever went to the States. Or India. Or Africa....etc..etc...

D. That the Woodhull sisters were the most notorious "harlots" in America ( Imagine...the top two in the same family !!).

Fact: Victoria Woodhull was a feminist in the 1850's...and ran for President. Had Harris investigated ( He mentions right off the bat in the interview that he was a "professional investigator" ) beyond the negative smear campaign against this uppity woman,he would have found this out.

E. That during the time D'onston liased with Woodhull in 1893,he was suicidal and at his lowest point.

Fact: Harris does not and cannot know this anymore than we can. D'onston may well have been at his "lowest" point in 1889 during his second stay in the London Hospital....there's no way of telling.

F. That Inspector Roots "may have been" the referee when D'onston applied for the Secretaryship of the Police Orphanage in 1886.

Fact: If he had been,he would have mentioned it. He didn't. He also is merely going on what D'onston told him on Dec. 26th,1888....not from actual investigation into this alleged application.

If anyone has seen this issue or would like to pitch in ( either pro or con...) please do so.

Thanks

[Mike Covell]

Whilst I am very happy to finally get my hands on the The True Face, I was shocked at the many inacurate statements within,
There is no evidence other than RDS "Ghost Story" of Thomas Piles ever being a smuggler,

There is no evidence that RDS served in the forces with Garibaldi,
True several places he mentions in his article for Borderlands actually tie in with the campaign, but anyone can read about these exploits in the newspapers,

The Dawber family were slaters and slate merchants not seed crushers, true they formed a partnership with Richard Stephenson but this was not there main occupation,

Theres a statement on P80 from Cremers stating RDS was in the London Hospital for removal of a slug from an altercation with a chinaman, yet we have all seen the records that state differently,

Infact, in researching RDS myself I am iclined to stick a great big "Fiction" sticker on the rear,

As for Black Magic Rituals, it just takes the same stories and regurgitates them as fact,
I propose that all the events that came from RDS writings or from Cremers memoris have the "Allegedly" prefix beofre them.

Finally page 244 from Black Magic Rituals, and the statement that only three people have looked at RDS in depth and untrue statements are being passed around!!! This passage gave me "real fits"

I will send you an updated chronology at some point today Howard, please feel free to comment.

Regards Mike

[Chris G.]

Hi Guys

I don't know if you are aware of this Mabel Collins page:

The Many Lives of Mabel Collins (http://www.kimfarnell.co.uk/mabel1.htm)

Chris

[How Brown]

Mike:

I wasted my time a while back of "challenging" Ivor about the date discrepancy begun by Harris ( Harris claimed Stephenson "changed dates" and that RDS "met" Lytton in 1860,not 1863 as RDS himself claims...also probably a lie and at least,unprovable...) forgetting that virtually everything Ivor "knows" about RDS came from Harris in the first place. In short,the second book about Stephenson is just as un-sourced as the first and if the first had no sources,why should the second...or how could it have sources ?

Another canard is that RDS and his father were somehow at odds...primarily based on the amount left to RDS in his father's will. It cannot have been from personal knowledge on Harris's part and this declaration only serves to make RDS appear like an outcast or in line with how these two authors want people to consider RDS.

Many people leave tons of money to relatives they hate...and likewise,many people leave little to relatives that they think or feel would squander the unearned monies. This latter case,while demonstrating the father probably felt RDS would squander the money ( and it was not that much in retrospect that the father gave anyone in the Will), he likewise gave his other brother just about the same amount...zero. It still doesn't mean he was at odds or disliked his two sons.

One more before I go...

Another canard is that Stephenson married his Mom's servant...and as with the Will scenario,this might have "upset" Papa.

Stephenson married his brother's servant...not his Mom's.

[How Brown]

C.G.

I'm well aware of this page and the author. I reviewed her book, Mystic Vampire,for Ripperologist Magazine after Steve Ryder kindly sent it to me.

Here's more to masticate on....and it involves Cremers.

AFTER the point where Cremers "felt" Stephenson was the Ripper...meaning after she found the box of ties....she likewise doesn't do much of anything about her feelings and in fact,if you remember in the O'Donnell....after the trial in Marylebone over the purloined letters, Donston..now Jack the Ripper in the mind of Vittoria...is allowed to come back to Cremer's place to borrow money since our imaginary serial killer is broke...as usual.

Sounds strange that a person...especially a woman...would allow Jack the Ripper into her home...and one probably with a degree of disdain for Cremers at that.

I don't know,as does anyone else,how serious these two women "felt" RDS was JTR for their different reasons...so I can't offer an explanation other than to judge the actions of the two women AFTER they felt he was the Ripper.

I can only suggest that if Collins felt RDS was JTR,she may have used the opportunity of being in court to expose her feelings right there in the docket...and especially since they were "so profound".

Cremers' act of allowing RDS/JTR back to her house...knowing full well of what JTR did to women...is frankly preposterous. in my view.

[Mike Covell]

I agree, it seems like a crazy idea, perhaps it was a case of falling for the bad boy!!

People could argue that she was doing it to study him, but other than the ODonnell manuscript took it no further.

I for one would have turned him in and sold my story to the press, but again no evidence of her ever doing that either.

It may be that she was afraid of him, if she throws him out, what might he do to her?

Perhaps she felt safe knowing that he only goes after prostitutes.

Another claim that I love is that he never ate, I have a similar condition whenever I go to the mother in laws for sunday lunch!

[Robert Linford]

Your name will go on ze list.

[John Savage]

Hi Howard,

The fact that Donston's father left neither him or his brother anything in his will does not mean that there was a falling out.

Many a Victorian father invested his wealth in the education of his sons, and particularly his eldest son, in order that they would have a trade of profession with which to earn their living. The daughters were only intended to marry, and giving them an inheritence made them a more attractive prospect.

I think something similar happened with Druitt, whose father spent well on his education but left him little in his will?

Rgds
John

[How Brown]

Prof. Savage:

The reason that Harris posited the idea that Donston was on the outs with his dad came primarily from this absence of money in the will as well as the way Donston allegedly responded to Cremers when asked about his father...he says "Curse Him !".

This still doesn't mean his dad disowned or disliked him...only that Donston wasn't too thrilled with him.

Good points by the way in your post.

[Mike Covell]

His Father was present at his wedding which speaks volumnes, I too believe that his Father may have invested in his education but may well have been disappointed if he (allegedly) lost his job at the Customs House.
I think his father probably felt the same after Richard Junior made a mess of his political career, and became involved in the criminal activities he was active in. It's worth noting that after these events Richard Junior leaves Hull.
I am searching desperatly to find the wedding details on Richard Stephenson Junior and Minna L Stephenson to see who was Richard's witness!!

Howard, check your emails, I have sent you a couple of lloyds shipping registry pages, some census info and the death certificate.

Regards Mike
:laser::llama::violin:
sorry had to put him there, it's like a digital re-imagining of Bambi!!

[Mike Covell]

Only just getting started Howard,
I am trying to get these Customs House documents returned to Hull any ideas were to post on the forum to gather support etc.

I have searched Ancestry in vain for the marriage certificate of Richard Junior.
My fear is that they got wed in France, Minna's home country, yet even more puzzling is how they met?

Perhaps when RDS wrote the letter blaming the French, he was having a side swipe at his brother!!

Regards Mike:kev:

[Nina Brown]

Mike,

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
Marriage / Newcastle T. / 1876
Richard Stephenson & Minna Louise Alley
Vol. 106 / Page 102

Nina :)

[John Savage]

Hi Nina,

Interesting that Richard married in Newcastle (upon Tyne I presume), as from the father's will I seem to recall that Richard's sister Elizabeth married a man from the same place? (Rev. Samuel Lord).

Rgds
John

[Mike Covell]

Thanks for posting that, it clears up the mystery of her surname, which I had been struggling with.

Its is, as John mentions interesting as to why they get married up at Newcastle and not somewhere a little closer, especially when the 1871 has him living in Hull (with his servant Anne Deary) and then by 1881 he's down at Islington!

Moving away from the wedding for a second, I found this in the Lloyds shipping registry, 1869/70, it seem's the Dawber family had there own vessel, for I imagine the import of slate.
(Iv included the classification at the top but they appear at the bootom line)

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/lloyds1869.jpg

[John Savage]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the details from Lloyd's Register 1869 and I was interested to see the small vessel owned by the Dawbers. Although I am not certain the information contained in the column "Port of Survey & Destined Voyage" may help. I am guessing that Bng. is short for Bangor, North Wales, and I recall that in one or other of the later Hull trade directories the Dawber slate business had a branch in North Wales. ( I think that is where slate originally came from)

I shall try to get to the library and have a look at the original register to see if I can get anything more about this.

Rgds
John

[Mike Covell]

Yes, that would be right about the slate from Wales, I was fortunate to visit Wales on a field trip looking at Glacial features of Snowdonia. It rained most of the time so we visited several of the slate mines to pass the time. There are many which are open to the public and I was amazed at the heaps of slate.

122 tons is a respectable size for a vessel, but it must have been one hell of a trip, my guess is they travelled South around souther England rather than North were the temperature drops and rough sea may have been something of a deterent.

It makes sense now that they had premises on Old Dock Side and in later years on Trippett. Ease of delivery would have probably been a factor.

[John Savage]

Hi Mike,

They may well have gone south about via the english channel, but it would also have been possible to go north about using the caledonian canal. The vessel was about 80ft. long and would have fitted through there nicely.

South about can also be a little rough, especially rounding Land's End, I once got thrown out of the wheelhouse chair and put my back out there for a couple of months!

Rgds
John

[Nina Brown]

Interesting that Richard married in Newcastle (upon Tyne I presume), as from the father's will I seem to recall that Richard's sister Elizabeth married a man from the same place? (Rev. Samuel Lord).

John,

Samuel Lord & Elizabeth A. Stephenson were married in Hull in 1856
Volume 9d / Page 336

Samuel Lord was from Birmingham. I can't find any reference to Newcastle.

Nina :)

[Mike Covell]

Thanks Nina, I have posted a thread on the Isle of Mann genealogy site in the hope that someone may have some more info on the Lord's. The area that they lived in (Derby Square) is still there so I am hoping someone can get some pics etc.

I did have a reply but it proved fruitless, they were Lord's from Yorkshire who settled on the Isle of Mann but the dates didn't tally.

Next step is a Richardson site, there will be one somewere.

I never thought of the Caledonian, it would definatly be easier!
I never had you down as a sea dog John, I used to be an industrial cleaner, and one of my main roles was marine work, I used to regularly take the odd vessel into the Humber, but usually got sick, dizzy etc. Thankfully I am a land lubber now!!

[Chris G.]

Derby Square where, Mike? Douglas, Isle of Man? If so, check out the following:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/isleofman/content/image_galleries/alastair_dumbell_gallery.shtml?6

[Mike Covell]

Thank You Chris G,
Wow, the place looks quite nice, just the sort of place I would expect to find a Rev, relaxing, drinking tea and maybe indulging in a little croquet!!
I heard a rumour it was under a conservation order or something similar.
Thanks again

[Chris G.]

Thank You Chris G,
Wow, the place looks quite nice, just the sort of place I would expect to find a Rev, relaxing, drinking tea and maybe indulging in a little croquet!!
I heard a rumour it was under a conservation order or something similar.
Thanks again

Hello Mike

Yes it looks as if Derby Square would be considered one of the architectural gems of Douglas and the Isle of Man. I am interested in the question because I have IoM connections. The Lords Derby (family name Stanley) were the Lords of the Isle of Man and I should think they gave their name to the square.

Mike, there's also a Douglas government site that shows photographs of the Lady Mayoress of Douglas planting a tree --the site provides some glimpses of the square. To my mind, it might seem as if the square was totally upper crust and establishment:http://www.douglas.gov.im/Mayoralty.asp?Action=ShowFunction&ID=2669

Chris

[Mike Covell]

Thanks Chris, I didn't think Lord Mayors had to do such back breaking work!!!
The pics are great and certainly give an idea as to what the properties were like.
As I recall there is a site primarily for IOM genealogy, because I am sure I tried there first, but reverted back to ancestry and rootsweb.

[Dan Norder]

Just so that other people seeing this later can track it down easier if they so desire, the March 2000 issue of Ripper Notes is actually #4 and not #1. That's the one that contains the interview with Harris being discussed.

A lot of the arguments Harris made were kind of surprising to me. The one that was most odd to me was the claim that the Ripper crime scenes were in such a strange configuration that it was impossible for them to have happened by mere chance. This was so far removed from the actual statistics involved that it took up a large section of my first full length article in this field. In actual fact, the numbers he cited were exactly the same as any five random locations in a specific sequence, which certainly can't be used to argue that they weren't random.

[How Brown]

Dan:

You're correct about which number issue of Ripper Notes this article appeared in....I put the asterisk and number to indicate that this is just the first article that I intended to put up for discussion.

Whats most surprising to me about the statements Mr.Harris defends or posits....are those he makes without mentioning sources and specifically those claims or "facts" that only came from Stephenson's own words without verification....some of which Mr.Harris could NOT have known about in totality,yet defended mightily....unlike and in complete abandonment of his skeptical technique in his other investigative ventures.

The absence of censuses in his book which would have thrown the claims of RDS into a new light regarding his declaration of having a degree ( page 58 of the True Face....) are alarming.

Stephenson states:

" I had got my M.D., he said,but was not yet in practice when I learned from a friend of the terrible plight the medical services of Garibaldi were in for want of doctors. I at once crossed to Italy and offered my services..."

Within this one abridged paragraph are two real problems for the mainstream argument made by Harris and his protege.

One is the statement that he had had his medical degree BEFORE going to serve with Garibaldi in 1860...and yet Harris claims that Stephenson recieved his degree from a New York university and didn't get one in Paris as Donston evidently told Roots,evidence of this of course, is in the Roots Report.

Not only is there no proof that RDS ever came to America ( which uncannily Harris supported without evidence...) but likewise,there is no evidence other than the census report of 1881 where he claims to be a medical doctor,but not in practice,of him being an m.d.

Going back now to 1860....

If he had had a degree prior to the 1861 census ( where he is not listed as a doctor...) why didn't he use it or refer to it in that year's census? He does the same thing in 1871 census ( which of course Harris and Edwards avoided mentioning ) when he claims to have been a HMS Coast Guard Lieutenant living in the Strand in London.



Stephenson claims to have been an m.d. prior to 1861.
Harris claims that he recieved his degree in America ONLY...after the service to Garibaldi. Stephenson did not mention anything about being an m.d. on a census or in his writings until after 1881,when it is mentioned in an article stating he was an "American doctor..". Harris posited the notion that RDS came to America in 1869....which of course,came on the heels of his dismissal at Customs House and only 2 years before being listed on the 1871 census as a Lieutenant.

Now the silly thing about all this is that not only did Stephenson claim that he was a doctor and never use this continental or British degree ( the one prior to Garibaldi)....but he hops on a boat...travels over the seas...spends up to 6 months or maybe less getting an American degree,like Harris promoted on an unsupported basis....and then DOES NOT PRACTICE medicine in Britain once he gets back home.

In other words,he has spent time,self,and money on obtaining TWO degrees that he never uses ! Even Harris mentions that RDS never practiced in Britain.

Now the second statement in the original paragraph where RDS is discussing his m.d. and Garibaldi is problematic as well.

Here he claims he heard the call of the Garibaldi Red Shirts and then crossed the sea to volunteer to help old Giuseppe out.

Not true. He volunteered in Britain and then was jettisoned out to Sicily....or at least thats what we are told and/or led to believe.

These are but two examples of dozens and dozens of false bits of information that hail from the mainstream Donston camp.

Thanks for the post,Dan

[How Brown]

Just a quick comment here....

One has to remember that the O'Donnell Manuscript is essentially a manuscript/book written by a man who was unbiased....but recieving information from a woman,Vittoria Cremers,who disliked Stephenson...and was probably biased in a large way for the direct destruction of her relationship with Mabel Collins.

Many of the statements made by Cremers are unflattering in regard to Donston....and we should really focus on the census reports and on what Stephenson claims he was on those censuses more so than what he is alleged to have told Cremers or anyone else in his life ( Marsh,Roots,even Rev.MacAuslane...and Cremers and Collins as well...)

[Chris G.]

Just so that other people seeing this later can track it down easier if they so desire, the March 2000 issue of Ripper Notes is actually #4 and not #1. That's the one that contains the interview with Harris being discussed.

To be clear about it, we are talking about Ripper Notes Volume 1, Number 4. "An Interview with Melvin Harris, Ripper Writer, Professional Investigator" appears on pages 3-6. This consists of an interview I conducted with Harris by email and snail mail. "Roslyn D'Onston: And Exclusive Update" by Melvin Harris appears on pages 7-8. The information about D'Onston came as an extra bonus -- I had only expected answers to my interview questions.

A lot of the arguments Harris made were kind of surprising to me. The one that was most odd to me was the claim that the Ripper crime scenes were in such a strange configuration that it was impossible for them to have happened by mere chance. This was so far removed from the actual statistics involved that it took up a large section of my first full length article in this field. In actual fact, the numbers he cited were exactly the same as any five random locations in a specific sequence, which certainly can't be used to argue that they weren't random.

For a man who wrote a book titled Sorry, You've Been Duped (London: Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1986), Melvin Harris's wholesale acceptance of the various myths and whoppers about Roslyn D'Onston seems mind boggling. He seemed blind to the holes in his suspect's candidacy.

In the interview, Harris states, "As early as 13, I became aware of the stanglehold that myths, lies and illusions had over the mind of adults." He characterizes Aleister Crowley of being a "bombastic liar" who "knew nothing or very little." But he never seemed to question whether Stephenson himself also could have been a bombastic liar or a maker of his own myth of being the Ripper.

In regard to the layout of the crimes on a map of the East End, I was personally startled by Harris's claim that "The odds against D'Onston's Ripper Cross scenario being wrong were one in fifteen million, two hundred and forty-nine thousand and twenty-four. Repeat, 15,249,024!" Then his claim (at the end of his "update" on D'Onston) that Canadian lawyers who had looked at this supposed geographic plotting of the murders on a map of the East End had concluded "With odds like that, logic says the distribution was planned."

Chris

[Mike Covell]

Howard hits the nail on the head when it comes to Stephenson.
Whilst compiling a chronolgy for the man and his family, I noticed there were few "Actual" facts to go on regarding the man.
My main sources were from his "stories" and Cremers recollections.
As Howard mentions Cremers may well have spiced it up as a smear campaign against Stephenson.

I have spent months speaking at lenght with people in Italy, France, Germany and the USA and so far have nothing evidentioal regarding any of his supposed trips to these regions.

When looking at the Garibaldian links only circumstantial evidence arose, for example Garibaldi's men were in the area of Italy that Stephenson mentions, however this doesn't prove he was there.
I nor my contact in Italy can find any reference to Stephenson (nor his aliases)
I believe he may well have read these reports in the press, fantasised a little and in later years passed it off as his own little adventure.
How many men have spoke 100% truth, when trying to impress a lady?

Cremers recolections to Stephensons differ on the Dead or Alive story, in the O'Donnell manuscript she mentions that Stephenson had been out of England, yet this in reality fell shortly after the infamous shooting incident at Flamborough.
Perhaps he was doing the "Long Way Round" in his bath chair!!!
Yet Stephenson's recollections make no mention of this trip.
Stephenson mentions the affair took place on a bridge over the "Drain" yet Cremers switches it to London's Westminster bridge.

In another article Stephenson mentions he "Practiced mesmerism on his cousin, who was a year younger, as well as his school friends" yet so far the only evidence we have is that him and his siblings were home schooled.

I also agree with Howard on the point raised about spending time and money on degree's that are not going to be used, it's similar to going to Gissen to study chemistry, to use it only on,
Making concoctions for Pompadour,
Baffling a witch in the Italian hills about his knowledge of the green stuff.
What a waste, no wonder Daddy was allegedly a little miffed!

Whilst I am a believer in some of the idea's presented in Stephenson's writing's, I believe they are fictional accounts used to put across a message.
Several months ago I was dragged into a room where a friend was having a psychic reading done. The names and dates rang true with this chap but the highlight for me was a transfiguration by the medium. The light was fairly bright and I watched in amazement as his face seemed to change into an old ladies.
Afterwards my friend swore down it was his deceased Aunt who had died only days earlier. Perhaps I should write it up for a newspaper using a mysterious pen name!!

[How Brown]

Thanks for these great replies gents...

One other aspect relating to Stephenson is extremely strange when he was at Customs House.

The declaration and with certainty,that Stephenson was released from duties due to his affiliation with a reputed smuggler and more importantly,because he was said to have contracted venereal disease by Mr. Harris.

I am well aware of the comments made in True Face which replicate the official paper that mention that, "there is little or no doubt that the illness which he is now suffering is the result of the discreditable life he leads"....

The problem with this is that there seems to be some uncertainty in the first part of the phrase...."there is little or no doubt.." on the part of the position of Customs House personnel 11 months before he was released and 5 months before he was shot by Piles on the vessel. You see,this report came on February 25th of 1868. RDS was released on December 31st.

No one I ever heard of willingly confesses to their boss or superiors or those who hand out the paychecks on Friday that they have syphilis or venereal disease...a condition which in 1868 was most definitely incurable. So how did they know RDS had a venereal disease at Customs House?

I have heard Andy Aliffe on cassette tape speak of these records and if Andy says it,you can take it to the bank. He was speaking at a Cloak and Dagger meeting back in 2002.

However, at no time does this paper Andy referred to expand upon the exact reason for RDS' release in late 1868.

At present,this issue is sort of in limbo. I cannot get my hands on the Customs House reports yet....and Andy is obviously too busy with his life and work to hunt them down.

Nevertheless, the problem I referred to....and it deals specifically with the lies Stephenson constantly comes up with....relates to the 1871 Census...which again is convienently absent from the books on Stephenson...and for good reason.

In 1871,as I mentioned,RDS listed himself as a Coast Guard Lieutenant. The complete listing of the censuses have been compiled over the years by Nina,Chris Scott,and Peter Birchwood...who,by the way,found the cemetery RDS was buried in and recieved zero credit for.

Anyway...If Stephenson was fired with all the bad trimming from a Government position in 1868...then what the hell is he doing working for the same Government....and at a better payscale and better position...2 years later? Its as if the Coast Guard completely overlooked his most recent disaster at Customs House and accepted a syphlitic with affiliations with alleged criminals and not only that....they made him a Lieutenant. They most certainly would have checked his records out before he was even allowed into the service to Her Majesty. In my opinion,the authors knew this fact and for this very reason,eliminated this scenario by omitting it from their works.

We simply cannot take the omissions of facts and non-facts of RDS' life lightly,for they are all indicative of the pattern Stephenson set during his life of embellishing himself for the persons he was with and the particular time frame he was currently in.

One other feature that is a constant theme in RDS life is how often he is found in the company of people who are affiliated with religious matters. His brother in law Samuel Lord was a Minister..he stayed with Rev.Prest before he allegedly went off with Garibaldi..he hobnobbed with Rev. MacAuslane...he writes a story about the woman Victoria Woodhull, a story with religious elements within it....and spends over a decade on writing the Patristic Gospels,no mean feat by any means.

Yet,the central theme of the mainstream works on Stephenson deal with what he wrote about and as of this date is not known to have practiced...the occult.

[Mike Covell]

Again Howard the points you raise are extremely valid,
The only "Evidence" we have of Stephenson's occult connections are his writing's but let me ask you this,
Is J R Tolkien from Middle Earth?
Is J K Rowling a witch?
Is Stephen King, Clive Barker or William Peter Blatty masters of the dark arts?

NO! They simply have the knowledge to write about there chosen subjects. Ok perhaps I chose some "Fiction" writers to illustrate a point.

Lets look at one of my favourites, Father Lionel Fanthorpe.
A priest who writes about the paranormal.
Would that make him an occultist?

Well no, he has the knowledge to write on these subjects.

RDS grew up in an age when spiritualism was a hot topic, I believe that he may well have read up on it, studied it, and told his friends stories on it, but practice it? I don't think so.

I am still digging for these customs records and it looks like a trip to Liverpool might be the order of the day!!
I think the Census entry was another of one of RDS little games, the only hard evidence I have found so far on RDS and his role suggests he was nothing more than a clerk! (Whites 1867, Stephenson Robert D, Chief Clerk)

[Magpie]

because he was said to have contracted venereal disease by Mr. Harris.


And just what were Stephenson and Mr. Harris up to, pray tell?

:eyebrows:

[Magpie]

RDS grew up in an age when spiritualism was a hot topic, I believe that he may well have read up on it, studied it, and told his friends stories on it, but practice it? I don't think so.



Hi Mike.

How's aware of my theory, but you might not be.

I believe that Stephenson had some form of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I believe that he created for himself a slightly sinister, occultic "image" to explain his behaviour and make his quirky little personal rituals more interesting and/or glamorous than they really were.

Given the zeitgeist (the occult revival, rise of theosophy etc.) and some of his acquaintances, it would both be natural for him to give such a pose an "occult" leaning, and for others to accept his explanations at face value, combining to create a persona that has survived to this day.

[Mike Covell]

That definatley rings true of the RDS we all know.

It's like watching Marlyn Manson, prance about dreesed in black, claiming to worship the devil, when in actual fact he's a church going mummy's boy!!

[How Brown]

Given the zeitgeist (the occult revival, rise of theosophy etc.) and some of his acquaintances, it would both be natural for him to give such a pose an "occult" leaning, and for others to accept his explanations at face value, combining to create a persona that has survived to this day.--Magpie

Dear Mag:

You are correct that the spirit of the age was,among many self taught or school taught intellectuals,getting involved with the issues and themes you mention.

The emboldened section of your sentence could read..."combining to create a persona that has survived to this day with the help of people who should know better..."

That the religious interests of Stephenson go almost untouched by the authors of works on Stephenson and are stated almost in passing tells me that they are or were enablers of this persona....up until we came along:rolleyes:

[Chris G.]

Hi Mike and Howard

Have either of you given any thought to Des McKenna's theory that the religious Roslyn D'Onston and Robert Donston Stephenson were two different individuals and that there might be some confusion of the two?

All the best

Chris

[Magpie]

It's like watching Marlyn Manson, prance about dreesed in black, claiming to worship the devil, when in actual fact he's a church going mummy's boy!!

In Mr. Warner's case, he ended up tapping the incredible Dita Von Teese, so he made out slightly better than Stephenson:D

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/dita1.jpg

[Mike Covell]

While it's an intresting theory that Roslyn and Robert are two different people, the census details and marriage certificate of RDS prove different.

Roslyn married Deary,
Deary was Richard Jnr's maid,
Richard Snr was at the service,

These are the very few pieces of actual documention from the period thats not suger coated.

The census however can be manipulated, as we can see from RDS entries stating,

He was a retired Coastgaurd,

He was an MD,

It is very interesting though, perhaps it was like an alter ego.

A true case of dr Jekyl and mr hyde!

Im Robert D'Onston Stephenson,:fencing:No I am!!

[How Brown]

Dear C.G. and Mike:

I tend to agree with Mike on this...that Donston and Mr.McKenna's proposed second Stephenson are one and the same.

Rather than "converting" from some sort of "occulist" belief or practice...I believe Stephenson simply utilized his accumulated knowledge and study of the various religious texts extant to compile the Patristic Gospels.

There is simply no evidence to suggest that he "left" the Christian faith ( again,he is found several times in the company of reverends and ministers for various reasons ) whatsoever and then because of his meeting with Woodhull, "converted" to Christianity. Who says he ever left?

My view is that he was commissioned to write the work or that he engaged in this endeavor because it was a project he could handle....just like when he engaged in writing about the other themes he wrote about when he did.

He wasn't above plagiarism either,when we recall the piece he lifted from Lyttons' 1836 book about the witch in the cave,either...that naughty boychik !

[Mike Covell]

Excellent points Howard, it just doesn't make sense that he is supposedly some big time magician, occultist and yet he is having afternoon tea and scones with several different clergymen throughout his life.

I think we pretty much disected the whole conversion of faith on the Woodhull thread, Howard.

Shouldn't Woodhull be some sort of national hero in the states for being the first women to have a go at the race for the Whitehouse? And yet no one is jumping to her defense against those who have basically branded her a whore!

And surely if he needed converting these guys would have done it!!

(Anyway must dash, have a paranormal investigation tonight and tommorrow night, and i am still editing the book!!!)

[Chris G.]

Hi Mike and Howard

As for Woodhull's reputation, I think it could have been a response of the male society of the day to label her a prostitute and a radical and so perhaps Harris was just picking up the propaganda that was spread about her rather than he actually had any information that she was a prostitute or a "notorious harlot."

In regard to D'Onston's writing technique, of course he does what a lot of writers have done and continue to do, pretend that what he was writing about actually occurred. Edgar Allan Poe was a master of that sort of writing and it enabled him to conjur up a scary scenario to help increase the chills factor for his reading audience. Closer to D'Onston's day, Henry Rider Haggard did it in King Solomon's Mines, making out that there actually was an adventurer named Alan Quartermain who had an ancient map that showed the way to the legendary mines in Eastern Africa. And in our day, it's the sort of thing that Frederick Forsyth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Forsyth) did in The Day of the Jackal, creating a story that melded fact and fiction, to make the reader believe that there actually was an OAS attempt to bump off De Gaulle and that the killer nicknamed "The Jackal" was real.

Chris