Dates & Donston

[Howard Brown]

Some of the millions of people who hang on my every word may remember that on at least a handful of occasions I have stated that in regard to the date switching made by Mr.Harris and his protege ( undoubtedly emanating from the statement made by W.T.Stead where he says Donston was a lad of 18 when he met Lytton....and in contrast to what Donston wrote in Borderland) that Donston only provides ONE date in all his writing.

Today I realized that that statement is false...but not intentionally. It was made solely regarding the 1863-1860 switcheroo that was done and obviously doesn't include the 1867 date that Donston provides for the Ada Louise story or the July 1868 shooting in Flamborough. My mistake.

In perusing the Ada Louise story in True Face...we see the mention of this August 1867 date and the subsequent story which was found in Stead's 1892 Review of Reviews entitled "Dead or Alive".

In this story...Stephenson writes that the story occurred in Hull.

In the version Vittoria Cremers relays to Bernard O'Donnell in the O.D.....apparently,RDS told Cremers that this story occurred in London with two references to landmarks in the Big Smoke...Big Ben and Westminster Bridge.

Mr.Harris states that the story is drastically altered...on page 64. He also states that the story is true in substance....

What part of the story is true in substance is my question.....

[Mike Covell]

The plot thickens Howard.
Great Hull Stories features the story, relating that it occured in Hull, however in this version of events we are told "That RDS is about to become a prominent politician.

I tried contacting the author via his publisher/agent and was told "He had disappeared to Brighton"

In terms of factual writing within the piece, I can definatley say that there were drains in Hull.

There were bridges over these drains, and they are in walking distance of Willow's house were RDs was at the time.

My niggle with this story is that if RDS needed his faithful retainer "Old Bob" to push him around, why would he visit London?

I have some bits and pieces on this i will email you Howard later on today. (Just got home from a very active all night investigation)

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

If you can,let me...and/or everyone else....know how they knew he was off to Brighton....and where that information came from.

Thanks buddy.

[Mike Covell]

We have our wires crossed Howard, I meant the author of Great Hull Stories had gone to Brighton. He had published in his book an ccount of the Dead or Alive story but it differed slightly.

[Howard Brown]

No problem,Mike.

This "Dead or Alive" story appeared thrice in print....the third,and allow me to point out once more...a religious "link" here...was found in the 1931 edition of Man's Survival After Death,by Reverend Charles Tweedale.

Maybe Tweedale is worth looking into for some link to RDS.

I'll get Nina workin' on this today.

[Magpie]

Hi How.

Here's a photo of the Rev. and Mrs Tweedale (with the spirit of the Rev's later father in law mugging for the camera)

[Magpie]

No problem,Mike.

This "Dead or Alive" story appeared thrice in print....the third,and allow me to point out once more...a religious "link" here...was found in the 1931 edition of Man's Survival After Death,by Reverend Charles Tweedale.

Maybe Tweedale is worth looking into for some link to RDS.

I'll get Nina workin' on this today.

Hi How.

Chuck may have been a Rev. but he was also active in the Spiritualist movement, and I found a reference to him being "controversial" (for reasons unspecified).

Oh, and apparently he made violins:

http://www.westcountryviolins.com/archive/violin-archive-8.htm
http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=6764
http://www.philipbrown-violins.co.uk/violin5Tweedale.htm

[Magpie]

Here's an extract from an article titled "What is Theosophy":


The Rev. Charles Tweedale, vicar of Weston, Yorkshire, a man who has laboured bravely in this cause, refers to the consideration of Spiritualism by the Bishops' Conference held at Lambeth Palace from July 5 to August 7, 1920, and, speaking of modern psychical research, says:*

* LIGHT, October 30, 1920.
While the world at large has been filled with an eager awakening interest, the Church, which claims to be the custodian of religious and spiritual truth, has, strange to say, until quite recently, turned a deaf ear to all modern evidences bearing upon the reality of that spiritual world to which it is the main object of her existence to testify, and even now is only just showing faint signs that she realizes how important this matter is becoming for her. A recent sign of the times was the discussion of psychic phenomena at the Lambeth Conference, and the placing by the secretary of my brochure "Present Day Spirit Phenomena and the Churches" in the hands of all the Bishops present, with the Archbishops' consent. Another significant sign of the times is the choice of Sir William Barrett to address the Church Congress on psychical subjects.

[Chris G.]

Hi How.

Here's a photo of the Rev. and Mrs Tweedale (with the spirit of the Rev's later father in law mugging for the camera)

No! No! That's either Edgar Allan Poe or Rasputin in the background! :banghead:

[Howard Brown]

Thanks a million for the photo,Mag...

This is the first time I have seen a photo of the man...and Rasputin together.

[Magpie]

No! No! That's either Edgar Allan Poe or Rasputin in the background! :banghead:

I thought it was Robbie Coltrane as Hagrid, myself...:yo:

[Magpie]

Maybe Tweedale is worth looking into for some link to RDS.

.

Is he related to Violet Tweedale, How?

[Howard Brown]

Mag:

I don't know, my man...

He would have been in his thirties in 1888....maybe RDS knew him,I don't know.

[Nina Brown]

Magpie,

I don't see any relation between Violet Tweedale & Rev. Tweedale.

Violet Chambers Tweedale 1862-1936 (grandaughter of author Robert Chambers 1802-1871)
Violet Chambers & Clarens Tweedale
married: Kensington 1891 - Volume 1A / Page238
1901 census: Bournemouth
Clarens Tweedale-40-b.Florence Italy British Subject-living on own means
Violet Tweedale-37-b.Scotland

Charles L. Tweedale
born: Halifax 1866 - Volume 9A / Page 439
Charles Lakeman Tweedale & Margaret Eleanor Clarke
married: Royston 1899 - Volume 3A / Page 958
1901 census: Harrogate / Yorkshire
Charles L. Tweedale-35-b.Yorks Hainlay Halifax-Clergyman Church of England
Margaret El.-25-b.Borham Sunderland
Herschel B.-0-b.Yorks Harrogate

Nina :)

[Mike Covell]

I read that Howard mentioned that the Dead or Alive story had been published by Tweedale, do you have a copy of this text or does anybody on the boards?
I would love to read it.

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

No sir,I don't have a copy and only know about it from the reference in the True Face.

[Magpie]

Thanks Nina!

That was getting frustrating when I was searching the net because both Charles and Violet's names would come up, and they have an overlap of acquaintances, but not a single source would name the spouse of either one.

Okay, so that's that answered:)

[John Savage]

Hi Howard,

Regarding the Ada Louisae story, I recall that back in November 2004 Tom Wescott wrote an article in Ripperologist, were as I recall, he suggested that the bare bones of the story are earlier than Donton's version. In Tom's article he mentioned that the original story placed a similar event in Cornwall.

This is all from memory, so if Tom should happen by this thread, perhaps he could refresh me on the details?

Rgds
John

[Howard Brown]

Dear Prof. Savage:

Tommy's article in Issue 56 of The Rip ( and its a very good one may I add...) mentions the Lovers of Porthangwartha which is basically the same as the Ada Louise story.

In the Porthangwartha story ( the word meaning,"lovers cove" ) instead of "Old Bob" standing witness,we have an "old hag"...and most of the structure of the stories are identical.

Its funny how data and information can disappear from our memory cells...I knew this 3 years ago and forgot about it until you just mentioned it. Thanks John.

[Dan Norder]

That bit of folklore is probably as old as humanity itself. There are certainly lots of different versions of it floating around.

[John Savage]

Hi Howard and Dan,

The point I was trying to make is that Donston's Ada Louise story is probably no more than a re telling of an older story, and happened not in Hull or London, but in the mind of old sudden death.

Rgds
John

[Howard Brown]

As a person who is well versed in the field of folklore and mythology,it helps that you mentioned this,Dan. Thanks.

Now imagine if you were in the "field" of demolishing myths and exposing hoaxes....and had not heard of the Lovers of Porthangwartha legend. This would be similar to being an astronaut and not knowing there were 9 planets.

John....the one other point within the Ada Louise story that doesn't make sense...at least to me....is that if Stephenson loved this imaginary Ada Louise, then why does he infer that she was a prostitute or a woman from the "wrong side of the tracks" ?

If the story is a retelling of an older story...which of course it is...and he is lying in the first place,then why did he add that "label" to Ada ?

[Mike Covell]

I heard a version that mentioned that RDS was to marry a rather rich north country heiress, after parting with his "prostitute lover" but this never happened.
Instead he goes and marries his older brothers serving girl!!!!!
It amazes me that his father was there at the wedding to her as surely this would have been frowned upon, maybe thats why they got married in Islington.

[Chris G.]

Dear Prof. Savage:

Tommy's article in Issue 56 of The Rip ( and its a very good one may I add...) mentions the Lovers of Porthangwartha which is basically the same as the Ada Louise story.

In the Porthangwartha story ( the word meaning,"lovers cove" ) instead of "Old Bob" standing witness,we have an "old hag"...and most of the structure of the stories are identical.

Its funny how data and information can disappear from our memory cells...I knew this 3 years ago and forgot about it until you just mentioned it. Thanks John.


Hi Howie

See "The Lovers of Porthangwartha" (http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0365.html#porthangwartha), one of a number of traditional Specter Bridegroom stories collected by D. L. Ashliman.

Chris

[Mike Covell]

Wow thanks for that Chris, i love a good ghost story, but this is like owning sky, the same thing constantly repeating!!

Good work!!