Prostitute

[How Brown]

Over on Casebook,they had a discussion going about whether or not Mrs.Eddowes was or wasn't a pross....

In Mr.Begg's "A-Z" and elsewhere, its been posited that perhaps she wasn't a prostitute and for a few reasons.



What are your views on this?

[Magpie]

I think she, like the others (and almost any woman in the East End at the time and under similar circumstances) probably engaged in casual prostitution, without necessarily thinking of themselves as "professionals".

[How Brown]

Thanks Mag...

What I was sort of puzzled about were comments that Mr.Begg was inferred as being "revisionistic" simply because of the possibility Eddowes wasn't a prostitute. I see no evil in suggesting she wasn't.

Chapman was involved with crocheting to supplement her income and yet is always considered a prostitute,despite Eddowes being involved with hop picking to make ends meet....and is the only victim ever considered as other than a pross,whether full or part time.

To me,its possible that since there are no existing records with her name on it designating being arrested for prostitution,that this might be the rationale behind suggesting she may not have been a pross.

How about you,Magpie?

[Currerbell]

I dont thinks she was...based on the evidence at the inquest, she was never seen with other men, didnt stay out late, she was good a handywork like sewing (or something like that), she went hop picking and tried to earn money that way when she could have stayed in London and earned it as a prostitute....

I need to read more about it to get some better argument going as Im sure none of you will agree with me...but for some reason, I dont think she was...

The night of her murder...she was prob still a bit drunk and so slower walking around, and possibly afraid of the telling off she would get so tried to avoid the 'hiding', maybe the later she got 'home', Kelly would be in bed, so she could sneak in and discuss it in the morning...

[Mags]

I'm sure she did a number of things to earn a penny. On the night of her death she probably needed to earn enough either to afford a doss or to give to Kelly to appease him.

[dougie]

I dont thinks she was...based on the evidence at the inquest, she was never seen with other men, didnt stay out late, she was good a handywork like sewing (or something like that), she went hop picking and tried to earn money that way when she could have stayed in London and earned it as a prostitute....

...
I wouldnt pay too much attention to testimony from friends at the Inquest......shouldnt speak ill of the dead syndrome etc......

[Debra Arif]

she went hop picking and tried to earn money that way when she could have stayed in London and earned it as a prostitute....


I suppose even prostitutes need a 'holiday' once in a while.
Rose Mylett also went hop picking in the summer of '88 and I think most of us here would agree that she in particular was most likely a full time prostitute, complete with pimp and all. She also returned to whitechapel early and skint that year.
I often wonder if maybe there was money to be made from prostitution alongside the hop picking for some of these women?...plenty of alcohol about, sun, and men with money in their pockets...in a good year that is.

[Currerbell]

Thanks everyone for your replies to my message, I had a look through my Sugden Ripper book earlier....there wasnt much mention of her BEING a prostitute but like Dougie said, it was all after she died that people were saying she wasnt one...

I guess we will never know (stating the obvious I know) but I just have a daft hunch about Kate...that she may not have been but then again when you need the money...what else can you do?

[Mags]

Good point, Deb.

A lot of women did a little bit of this and a little bit of that to survive. The occasional prostitution when all else failed was no doubt a rather surer way of getting some money than hoping that someone would buy your matches or whatever.

One of the things that makes me wonder about Stride, for example, was that she seemed to have had a good gig cleaning houses.

Edited by How Brown because Mags can't spell "good'...friggin' New Yorkers !

[Sam Flynn]

I suppose even prostitutes need a 'holiday' once in a while.Indeed, Debs - a chance to put their feet down now and again ;)

[Currerbell]

You are wicked Sam!:becky:

[Paul]

I suppose it all depends on how one defines a prostitute. Is someone who sleeps with a guy because he's paid for her night out a prostitute? Is a prostitute someone whose sole income is derived from sex for cash, or someone whose primary source of income is derived from sex for for cash? Is someone who resorts to prostitution to supplement her income when necessary, no matter how regular that necessity might be, a prostitute? Is someone who sells herself only as a last, desperate resort a prostitute?

A prostitute is someone who has sold herself for sex. Full stop. End of discussion. And that might well be true. Arguing that in exceptional circumstances a woman can resort to selling herself and should not be defined as a prostitute raises all sorts of questions about how one defines 'exceptional' and the argument almost always comes down to whether or not a prostitute cooses to be a prostitute and would remain one even if given the opportunity to give up the trade.

It can simply boil down to how pedantic you are and what your perspective is. Eddowes was a prostitute because she sold herself for money, but a great many women living in extreme poverty did or would have done the same. But is she did not regularly solicit or did not solicit if there was an alternative source of income, or perhaps did not solicit all but simply accepted an offer when one was made, then she may not have considered herself among the women who prostituted themselves nightly.

[Currerbell]

But where is the proof that she WAS a prostitute???

She had that many possessions on her when she died, what if she merely pawned more off earlier that day for drink? If she couldnt find her daughter over in Bermondsey...she came back disappointed and fed up...maybe she had never been that drunk before, and that was why she was afraid of the hiding she would get when she got 'home'...esp as she was meant to be sober usually..

[Paul]

I'll leave it to others to answer that question.

But she went out with no money and a while later was apparently falling-down drunk, which raises the question of where the drink came from, and John Kelly seems to have been a tad unconcerned when he learned she'd been arrested and was a little evasive about what he thought she'd been up to when away all night, perhaps suggesting that he knew she'd been on the game. None of which actually makes her a prostitute.

[Currerbell]

I think she pawned more stuff to get the drink..

[Sam Flynn]

I think she pawned more stuff to get the drink..The problem is that she appears to have had very little of value to pawn.

One thing we overlook, I feel, in the context of the Ripper victims, is the possibility - probability? - that these women weren't averse to begging once in a while. Dare I suggest that the origin of the "fire-engine impersonation" story (whilst spurious in itself) might have had its origins in a pathetic "song-and-dance" routine that Eddowes might have been performing to earn a few coppers?

Anyone who's seen The London That Nobody Knows would have an idea of the truly abysmal "turns" that provided street entertainment in the poorer districts of London - and that was in the 1960s! How much sadder would the beggars and buskers have been in the East End of 1888, I ask myself.

[How Brown]

Sam:

Just as long as your "begging" theory or presentation of the "victim as being in a beggar mode on the night they were killed" is not one and the same,I'd agree that there were times when a Nichols or a Chapman had practiced begging by day.

However, in my view, it makes virtually no sense to consider they were practicing beggary ( is it even a word???) on the nights they were killed. People with too much money or enough money to spare might acquiesce to a beggar...but at the times of day that they were killed would seem to exclude that likelihood. I remember a post Colin Roberts made on this subject and astoundingly,just thought about it this afternoon before I saw your post.

[Nemo]

There is also the possibility she had what we call a "slate" or a "tab" in certain pubs - ie she could have a drink and pay later

It wouldn't take too many bottles of gin to get drunk

Singing for the punters may have earned herself a free drink

She could have stolen a bottle

There are a number of possibilities besides prostituting herself

[Sam Flynn]

However, in my view, it makes virtually no sense to consider they were practicing beggary ( is it even a word???) on the nights they were killed.I can't see why the victims might not have adopted a number of methods to try to "earn" some money - or lodging, or drink - even on the nights they died. It's equally conceivable that Jack might have tried different approaches - especially after the perception that he had a "down on whores" got out.

I'm not saying they did, How - nor even that I believe that it's likely that they did - only that I don't rule out the possibility.

[How Brown]

Understood Sam...understood. I suppose my 'basis' for this lies in the fact that Tabram (assuming here that she was a victim) was killed inside the building and I think you would have to agree she wasn't begging there.

Nichols could have been,I suppose. Chapman ( unless it wasn't her that Mrs. Long saw ) appears to have been down with the down low that night...Kelly was seen with what appears to have been a client...Stride wasn't havin' none o' dat mess it appears,having resisted one suitor...so who does it leave? Eddowes? Eddowes found in a dark corner of the Square begging at that time of night?

But anyway,since we ain't solved this sumbitch yet, anything is possible.

[Currerbell]

Very interesting theories gentlemen, got me thinking....the begging is a good idea...and the idea of an 'act' such as singing or imitating a musical hall person for example...and whos to know they didnt have a few pennies hidden away somewhere...

My idea on the pawning was she got something from someone else like the boots to pawn, she did seem to have a lot on her when she died in possessions....maybe there was something she sold like the tea or sugar they bought earlier...

Nemo, I liked your ideas...

[Sam Flynn]

My idea on the pawning was she got something from someone else like the boots to pawn, she did seem to have a lot on her when she died in possessions....Indeed - the most awful tat imaginable, Sarah :(maybe there was something she sold like the tea or sugar they bought earlier...Not sure there'd have been enough in that to get her rolling drunk. It's possible, of course, that she might have nicked something and pawned that - after all, she had some "form" in that area from her Wolverhampton days, where she'd done a runner after stealing from her employer.

[Currerbell]

possibly...she could have stolen something from somewhere...

People in the East End probably never had a lot worth out anyway...them boots they pawned would hardly have been new...

[Paul]

There's one small but interesting point about Eddowes which is that Kelly said Eddowes went off to see if she could borrow some money from her daughter, but the daughter claimed that she'd moved several times because Eddowes was such a persistant scrounger and that Eddowes didn't know where she lived. Now, if Eddowes was such a persistant scrounger then she must have tried numerous times to trace her daughter and known that a further attempt would have been a waste of time. There is nothing to say that she didn't think that day that a further attempt was worth it, but the evidence would seem to indicate that she didn't go in search of her daughter at all. So, was the story told by Kelly the truth? If it wasn't, what did Eddowes really plan to do that afternoon and why was Kelly coy about it?

[Currerbell]

I going to suggest something that is probably going off the track now...but what if Kates daughter did want to give her money (would you want to see your mum living like Kate did?) and it was the daughters HUSBAND who suggested Kate was a scrounger and told his wife not to give her mum anymore money...

She still could have met her daughter somewhere and been given a few bob...

[Big Jon]

I going to suggest something that is probably going off the track now...but what if Kates daughter did want to give her money (would you want to see your mum living like Kate did?) and it was the daughters HUSBAND who suggested Kate was a scrounger and told his wife not to give her mum anymore money...

She still could have met her daughter somewhere and been given a few bob...

That does sound like a plausible scenario. Blood is thicker than water and all that.

[Currerbell]

Cheers mate!:high5:

[SirRobertAnderson]

So, was the story told by Kelly the truth? If it wasn't, what did Eddowes really plan to do that afternoon and why was Kelly coy about it?

The last words Kelly addressed to her were a caution to "beware of the knife," an allusion to the Whitechapel murderer.

It just struck me that this is an odd thing for Kelly to say unless he knew that Kate intended to prostitute herself.

[Paul]

It just struck me that this is an odd thing for Kelly to say unless he knew that Kate intended to prostitute herself.

Which was kind of my point. John Kelly's behaviour seems odd to me.

[Paul]

I going to suggest something that is probably going off the track now...but what if Kates daughter did want to give her money (would you want to see your mum living like Kate did?) and it was the daughters HUSBAND who suggested Kate was a scrounger and told his wife not to give her mum anymore money...

She still could have met her daughter somewhere and been given a few bob...

Except her daughter said she did not meet her mother, which, of course, she would say if, as you suggest, she had gone against her husband's wishes.

[Robert Linford]

I suppose "went to see my daughter" could have been a private joke Kelly and Kate used if other people were present - with the meaning "earned money from a punter."

Re the street singing : she might have earned money for stopping.:)

[How Brown]

Dear Mr. B;

This is one of those "details" in the Eddowes murder that I never really (unfortunately for me) gave much thought to...that John Kelly may have known Catherine wasn't intending to see her daughter ( for one or more factors) and that he may have been merely "dignifying" her departure from him on that day in the first place. It sat there in front of me for 7 1/2 years:banghead:
**********************************

For later:
I still would like to come to terms with those pawned pair of boots. Is anyone of the opinion that Kelly walked around barefoot and even possibly up to the point of the Inquest? Could he have had another pair of shoes ? Because,if so, why didn't HE pawn the boots? They would have been together on the day she was killed wouldn't one think?

Thanks for bumping the thread up,Sir Bob.

[Paul]

If Kelly knew that Eddowes was postituting herself then it is possible that he could have been prosecuted for living off immoral earnings. Fea of that may have given him an incentive for concocting a story which he could also use to explain his apparent unconcern at Eddowes absence overnight (namely that he thought she'd spent the night at her daughter's).

As for Kelly's boots, I assume he'd worn boots when walking to Maidstone, during his brief stint at hop-picking (if, indeed, he'd picked any hops - the season was very bad that year, most hopfields being wiped out by bad weather and plant disease) -and when starting his homeward trip. I would guess that he kept them and wore then when his new (or more probably second-hand) pair bought in Maidstone were pawned. But I wonder where they got the money to buy a 'new' jacket and boots - they'd just walked to Maidstone from London (some 40+ miles), did little or no hop-picking and so earned no money, yet had sufficient cash to buy a jacket and boots.

[Currerbell]

But was it listed in the newspapers that the women killed before Eddowes were prostitutes?, if all Kelly knew was that some mad man was after women who were walking around alone, late at night then surely he would say something like that to her anyway...

If there was a mad man in Leeds nowadays killing women at night, I wouldnt want any of my female relations/friends going out, and I would warn them too...

[How Brown]

Sar:

The previous victims ( excluding the mention of Stride ) were mentioned in the papers as unfortunates...even over in the USA , and would be a term Kelly would be familiar with. Even if he was illiterate,there's always the 'word on the street" too.

Mr. B:

I like that line of logic in regard to why Kelly may have not come clean with what she was doing from the point of her leaving him until she died. I think its worth considering that he KNEW she was going out to make money by prostitution. It might explain his not mentioning her prior soliticing at one point and then subsequently inferring to it later on...the first response made during the time when he might worry about being considered someone making money off the illicit trade...and the second ,when at ease or absent mindedly.

[dougie]

I suppose "went to see my daughter" could have been a private joke Kelly and Kate used if other people were present - with the meaning "earned money from a punter."

.:)

Thats a good point.....as in "going to see a man about a dog"

[Nemo]

As for Kelly's boots, I assume he'd worn boots when walking to Maidstone, during his brief stint at hop-picking (if, indeed, he'd picked any hops - the season was very bad that year, most hopfields being wiped out by bad weather and plant disease) -and when starting his homeward trip. I would guess that he kept them and wore then when his new (or more probably second-hand) pair bought in Maidstone were pawned. But I wonder where they got the money to buy a 'new' jacket and boots - they'd just walked to Maidstone from London (some 40+ miles), did little or no hop-picking and so earned no money, yet had sufficient cash to buy a jacket and boots.


I will post pictures of the hop picking and quite an extensive article relating to that season's work when I get this Flickr thing sorted

[How Brown]

Thanks in advance of your proposed placement of the material,Nemo.

I was already to make an observation on something that Mr. Begg has brought up long before about the status of Mrs. Eddowes in relation to her being a prostitute...and I'm glad I scrolled down to see he already has commented on that aspect of Mrs. Eddowes' history.

Its good food for thought.

[Nemo]

sorry about the bad quality

I overlapped the text so you get it all

Some interesting info here - the bosses changed the rates of pay and accepted the hops good or bad, charity work was going on for the "unfortunates", living conditions seem about as good as Whitechapel, and we hear of a member of the sometimes "despised" occupation - the stage! - lol

Apparently the workers kept a book of their work and could either "sub" some of the money already earned on 3 days of the week, or they could save it all until they went home

It does seem a bad year but there was money to be made

Hope this link works...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nemo1888/

Maybe one of the people in the pics is Kelly or Eddowes...

[Nemo]

Let me know if you want a better pic posted or PM me and I will send you some high res pix

[Caroline Morris]

Hi All,

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I'm not sure the point is whether or not Eddowes was soliciting that night, or indeed if she had ever done so, but whether her killer had reason to believe she was "up for it".

The very fact that she was found dead in the darkness of Mitre Square would tend to the simple conclusion that, unless he had to hire a fire engine to transport her there against her will, she had been doing a passable impression in his presence of a lady of the night, and not of the fire engine.

It's almost worse to suggest that she was merely begging, and had no intention of 'earning' the few pence she hoped to get from a stranger she had agreed to go off with.

Love,

Caz
X

[ferret]

Hi Caz-

and All (:))

I will never get my head round it that Kate was 'prostituting' herself in any shape or form -she wanted to get back for 'the good hiding' or at least to be back at home (!)

OK the visit to 'daughter' is a tad odd and considering said daughter was a 'movinig target' at this point may be interesting......

...Where did Kate go during that afternoon.....and with whom and why???

I agree here tho - OK.... Kate came round from whatever 'experience' she had had that day-and 'was singing softly to herself'....what we'll never know..(sadly 'eh) ..at 12.15 she asked to be let out.. at 12.30 she was listened to ..at 1.00 George Hutt released her with his 'Too late for you to get any more drink' line- closely followed by

The 'Damned good hiding' ' line ....The 'Serves you right- You have no right to get drunk'.................'And serves's you right!' lines ..........
...........are probably the last thing Kate heard in her head as she toddled out of the Police Station with her wonderful parting line which has 'Gawn down in history'!

Sad isn't it that George Hutt said ''This way missus' and her last recorded words are so wonderful


'Goodnight Old C***' will stay with us all I reckon

[ferret]

Just had a thought....
Maybe she WAS begging for a few coppers to get the boots back- that would have made her look good when she toddled back later that night to John Kelly who may have forgiven her for being 'er out of order

[Nemo]

I'm what would be classed as a "Midlander" and live in Shropshire, close to Wolverhampton

"Cock" and "Cocker" are still used frequently here in greetings etc but I have never associated those words with someone from Wolverhampton way

"Famous" Shropshire greetings include...

"How Bist owd Cocker?"
translating as "How are you" - "How be'est thou old Cocker?" (Shropshire people still refer to others as thee and thou

Don't get the wrong impression you Yanks - we're not Amish or anything like that...

An example of the local grammar, slang and Olde English speech is the following...

"Thee hasna bost the ball hastha?"

translating as "You haven't burst the ball have you"

Though "bost" more often than not translates as "broken" as when you have broken say, a mirror, someone might remark "You've bost it"

..and for unknown reasons Shropshire folk always refer to a bank (as in a hill as a "bonk" - A "man" is a "mon" etc

Wolverhampton people do not speak like that

[Currerbell]

Im from Wolvo, and no they dont speak like that!

Wonder if Kate thought it was 'bostin' when she got a bed for the night...

[Nemo]

lol- That is correct grammar also Currebell

"bostin" is used to imply that something is very good...

I can understand some of the problems people have learning English as a second language what with all the slang / colloquialisms / multiple meanings

[Currerbell]

I wonder if Kate spoke with a Midlands accent however slight...