Dismissal "reasons" List

[Nina Brown]

Has anyone ever considered that Druitt was released from Mr.Valentine's School for something other than the usual suggestions such as pedophilia, financial malfeasance, or "moonlighting" ?

How about the possibility that he struck a student who had affluent and influential parents ?

Nina :)

[aspallek]

Yes, that has been considered, striking or even saying something inappropriate to the son of someone influential. Also considered was the less nefarious interference of his legal career with his teaching duties and, finally, being discovered away from the school at night without permission. These are all conjecture, of course.

[Stephen Leece]

I wish I'd spotted this at the time- speaking from personal experiences, when working in a school of Mr. Valentine's nature, if a child is struck or inappropriate comments are made in front of children (with influential parents), the teacher is suspended for a couple of days- (to allow for what's known as 'a period of calm'). Upon reinstatement the pupil(s) have to apologise for driving said teacher towards their actions, and the teacher then makes a 'statement of regret.' This is not to be confused with an apology. So the teacher says something along the lines of, 'I regret my quick temper, and assure you that there will be no repeat performance.' What he really wants to say is though, 'I regret that I am saying this because this boy is such a useless waste of space and has no value except as a repository for crisps and mars bars.' These statements of regret are all about saving face.
Don't assume current teaching of Druitt's era is the same as the current teaching practice- it has changed dramatically over the past 20- 25 years at least. I was the last generation of UK kids that could be legally struck in the class- I think the total ban came in around 1987. Having worked all over the world, I can safely say that much of the rest of the world is still catching up with current UK teaching methods. Whatever Druitt was fired for, I am 99% certain it will not have been for hitting or saying inappropriate things. I think it's most likely for some kind of sexual misconduct or financial irregularities. Having said that though the contents of his pockets indicate he was paid in full upto the day of dismissal which perhaps rules out financial irregularities. On the one occasion where I have come across financial 'irregularities' the staff member had the value embezzled deducted from their final pay off. Whether that would have been standard proceedure in Druitt's day though, I cannot say.

[Robert Linford]

He may have got a servant girl into trouble. He may have passed info about the school to the school nearby - I think there was another school in the same road - and perhaps have been seen as a fifth columnist. He may have had a drug or drink habit......

[Chris G.]

Hi Stephen, Robert, Nina, and Andy

Stephen, I very much appreciate your nuanced discussion of teaching practices in 1888 versus today in regard to punishment and student/teacher behaviour. Very informative.

Of course we all tend to think that Druitt's dismissal had to do with some sexual indiscretion. But what if it had to do with the stated reason for his suicide, i.e., mental unbalance... going the same way as his mother, as he is supposed to have expressed it in his suicide note. Thus perhaps there was some manifestation of his mental aberration while at the school which could have involved, for example, mishandling money, as Stephen states might have been a reason for dismissal, or else simply speaking inappropriately while in class in some shape or form or becoming too disorganized to teach. What do you all think?

Certainly, I should think, diminished mental capacity/ability to teach could have been a reason for dismissal. Or do you think that if his dismissal was along those lines, there would have been some evidence that was the case, the school referring him to a mental institution say... or possibly that evidence, if it existed, has been lost. Your thoughts are invited.

All the best

Chris

[Robert Linford]

Hi Chris

the thing about the mental problem, is that he was doing fine in his court appearances right up to the end. However, I suppose there is a difference between working on a case at home, and then appearing in court for an hour or two, and teaching on a daily basis. With the court appearances, it might be possible to conceal any mental instability - whereas, as Stephen will probably confirm, there's nothing more calculated to wear a man down than daily attendance on a class of schoolboys.

I remember finding in the 1881 census that some of the pupils - either at Monty's school or at one very close by - had actually had themselves listed as "The Horrible" or "The Terrible" after their surnames. This is in the actual
census returns!

Robert

[Stan Russo]

Chris,

Mental problems are a far stretch since Adrian Morris, I believe, has found a case that Druitt worked on in court on November 22nd where he won a successful verdict. of course, lawyers can be nuts but I believe when we think of mental instability, especially with the circumstances surrounding Druitt's dismissal, there would have been signs that had been recorded and noted.

Nina,

I think the major stumbling block with anything other than sexual indiscretion is the fact that there is such silence on the matter. I have heard of a researcher who specializes in the history of where Mr. Valentine's School was, but the name escapes me at the moment (Roy Hidson perhaps?), who claims that there is still silence today on what took place to warrant the dismissal., Such silence generally means one of two things, sexual indiscretion or financial fraud/embezzelment. Since two checks were found on Druitt's body from Mr. Valentine, as owed pay, one must exclude financial issues from the discussion, due to the fact that an employer does not generally give an employee their paychecks and an additional sum after catching them stealing funds.

[Stephen Leece]

It was Neil Rhind that was the Blackheath/ Valentine's Historian. Does anybody know the depth of Rhind's research though or attended a private lecture of his?

[aspallek]

I have met Mr. Rhind. He is a wonderfully friendly and helpful individual who knows Blackheath history like the back of his hand. He and I sat and drank at the Hare & Billet, within sight of the site of Valentine's school, and yards from J H Lonsdale's haunt as well. We chatted about the possible reasons for Druitt's dismissal but as I recall, Neil really didn't have a theory. I believe I am correct in saying that he thought the most likely cause was inappropriate words or physical actions (not sexual) toward one of the pupils, though don't quite me on that.

I'm afraid I just really at a loss to know what the reasons for Druitt's dismissal was. For every argument there is seemingly a good counter argument.

[Dougie]

or consorting with prostitutes,which if discovered would have brought the name of the school into disrepute?

[Mr. Poster]

hi ho

Just out of interest.......were there dates on the cheques as t when they were issued?

Not being a fan of Druitt as suspect nor knowing the above answer one could posit that perhaps the two cheques were his pay for example and the second cheque was in leau of a notice period or whatever?

Which would make it sound like they were in a big hurry to be rid of him.

Surely that implies something sexual? If it was fraud they would just call the cops. Only a sex thing would get huim fired quickly without th eploice being involved (to save the name of the school)

p

[How Brown]

If anyone has not listened to JMenges' program, on www.rippernet.com (http://www.rippernet.com)

which features Rev. Spallek, you're in for a treat when you do.

Lets put the possible reasons ( some were mentioned and should be credited to Andy on the program ) here.

Starting with our aviator friend, Dougie's idea.

1. Possibly cavorting with prostitutes.
2. Possibly moonlighting and inattentiveness to school job & duties.
3. Possibly striking a child whose parent(s) had influence enough to press for Druitt's release.
4. Possibly rumor of inappropriate conduct with a student ( male).
5. Possibly rumor of inappropriate conduct with a staff worker ( female).
6. Possibly caught in the act with a male student ( homosexual acts)
7. Possibly caught in the act with a staff worker ( like a cook or maid).
8. Possibly erratic behavior over a period of time which forced school to dismiss him.
9. Possibly for being too harsh on a student ( gradewise) whose parent had sufficient vested interest in the school to force Valentine's hand.
10. Possibly caught returning to school grounds from "somewhere" while still "on the clock".
11. Possibly had an altercation with a superior at the school and it involved physical or verbal abuse.
12. Possibly verbally abusing a student or students.
13. Possibly associating with individuals who were frowned upon by the school once or perhaps more than once after a 'warning".

I am one of those who doubt that Druitt did anything "wrong" in the area of money. I don't think he stole from them,in other words. It would be very strange if he had,since he was found with a paycheck from the school upon his person when he was taken from the River Thames.

Anyone else with anymore possibles?

[admin tim]

14. Considering all what goes on at the workplace today, I'd say it was more than likely that old Monty was caught with some prime Victorian pornography in his possession while at the school. Maybe even some of the Cleveland Street variety. Such an act would certainly be grounds for a sudden and rapid dismissal.

[aspallek]

^ Not really sure how much disrepute would have been attached to consorting with female prostitutes. The more I think about it the more I think it could have had something to do with a homosexual liaison. The distinction we must make, I think, is that there was a difference in the Victorian Era between being a true homosexual and being a heterosexual who engaged in occasional homosexual liaisons. It may be possible that Druitt occasionally engaged in these liaisons even if he was not truly a homosexual. If discovered, these liaisons would have been scandalous.

[Sam Flynn]

I'm surprised that "rubbing linseed oil into the school cormorant" has not been advanced as a reason yet. It has a precedent - see The Meaning of Life, by M. Python (1983).