I Just Noticed Something....

[Instructor 173]

Over the years I've been waiting and watching to see if one particular theory about JtR would EVER surface. I'm tired of waiting for it to come up so here goes.

Let's have a discussion about the possibility of JtR being a pair of twins. You're reading it here first! Howard, copyright this idea as soon as you can...

Here's the basic idea behind my :loco: insane idea:

We know that there were a series of murders of women back in the fall of 1888. We know that the murders were very close in appearance BUT there was some differences in them too. We know that the police were never able to identify the killer for one reason or another. One of the main problems with identifying :tsk: a killer back then is that everybody that the police questioned "seemed" to have an alibi or cover story of some sort. But one of the things that would have eliminated the police headaches is that nobody would have thought that a pair of twins could be Jack the Ripper. If I remember right, it was the French police who first identified a pair of twin brothers as being involved in some crimes and that was long after the murders in 1888. Now suppose that a London officer had put together the idea that JtR was actually a pair of homicidal twin brothers. I wonder if that would have solved the case? One brother would kill a woman and the other would make himself known by drawing attention to :puke: himself at a party, a local tavern or something. Brother Number One kills while Brother Number Two sets up an alibi. Then the next time the brothers switch roles with Number One setting up an alibi. Think about this idea.... It would almost be the "perfect murder" scenario for 1888 London. With the technology of 1888, there would be no way to prove what was happening. The confusion caused by this pair of killers would be :noidea: extreme to the maximum, like what happened. The case would go unsolved like it did. Okay, now that Howard, you and I have solved the case involving Jack the Ripper we can shut down this site, right? :jaw:

[Mike Covell]

Hi Instructor173,

Ever seen the movie "The Prestige" starring Christian Bale, Michael Caine, and Hugh Jackman?

I won't spoil it for you but I suggest if you haven't seen it to watch it, it's highly recommended and pertinant to your theory.

If i say too much it gives the game away.

Anyway, I think it's a cracking theory, just have to find a set of twins in 1888 Whitechapel area.

All the best

Mike

[Howard Brown]

The case would go unsolved like it did. Okay, now that Howard, you and I have solved the case involving Jack the Ripper we can shut down this site, right? --Instructor 173
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If we really wanted to shut down the Forums, we could do that by offering audio tapes of Debbie Dobbins and Robert Linford singing duets. That would wake up the dead all the way back to 1888...and probably include the Ripper.

He would definitely go after Debbie and try to put an end to her caterwauling and a couple of us could be there...standin' near by....and capture him. End of site and end of story.

I never thought about a pair of brothers,Mr. D....its food for thought.

[Instructor 173]

No, Mike, I have not seen the movie "The Prestige." I'm just here to play, have some fun and present ideas that might get people to thinking. I do a fair amount of kidding but I have written a couple of small articles in the past about JtR. What I like most about sites like this one is that there are so many sharp minds out here willing to exchange information, jokes and ideas. It's not like going a site where somebody whines about his or her boyfriend/girlfriend/significant other has left them for a doctor named Crippen or something. I've sat back and thought about this and thought about this and I now think that a pair of homicidal twin brothers could have pulled off these murders and gotten away with it. Heck, for all intents and purposes JtR was the world's first serial killer who could have also been the first set of homicidal twins. My estimation of solving this case has dropped down to a chance estimate of about 50-50 now. It could go either way and as times passes, our odds of solving these murders slowly drops lower and lower. Right now, unless somebody finds some really good evidence linking a suspect or two to the killings in an attic of a house owned by the same family for over 130 years then we're probably not going to know for sure and I do NOT talk about a diary alone. Any way, go ahead and tell us about the movie fill in the void now that you've made us curious.

Howard, I would never of thought of you as a music critic. I take it that Debbie Dobbins will NOT be sending you any Christmas cards this year, right? If Debbie reads this, maybe she will give us enlightenment about women who suddenly snap and attack "music critics?" By comparing Howard's demise with those of the dead women from 1888 maybe we can finally rule out or confirm all those theories about Jill the Ripper, eh? Man! Howard's a great... er... was a great guy for his personal sacrifice that he made to further our studies on Jack... er... Jill the Ripper.

[Adam Went]

G'day all,

Instructor:

Interesting theory! It's a little bit like the one that's come up from time to time in the past, that JTR had an accomplice of some sort....whether he was to keep guard, drive the coach, or whatever.

Twins would be a very interesting solution to the case, but personally I believe that he acted alone....what if, at some point during the WM, the two of them had a fight about something and one decided to dob the other into the cops? Similar things have happened before. If they were homicidal twins, why did they stop the killings? Even if, as some believe, JTR was incarcerated, died, left the country, etc, shortly after the murder of MJK, the other twin would still have been around to carry on the killings, right?

As far as the other creating the alibi....JTR didn't get caught or arrested at any point that we know of - therefore, he didn't ever need an alibi. ;)
Still, it's an interesting idea....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Instructor 173]

Adam, it's an idea with which to play. There are those who speculate that JtR was a team who killed. But what I propose does not validate their team idea. It still allows one guy to kill, alone, while the other sets up an alibi. So, if you think that JtR acted alone, then this idea of mine fits into that line of thinking. I'm not saying that the twins were both present when all of the actual killings were done. What I'm suggesting is that there could have been a pair of twin brothers doing the killings. Maybe they only did the killings for a short time as a challenge sport of some kind just to see if they could get away with it. We don't know why they would have killed because they were never detected/arrested BUT imagine yourself as an 1888 detective trying to figure out the JtR killings. You would have run the whole gauntlet of theories and probably still have NOT come up with the idea of twins because its not something you would have normally expected or encountered in your entire career. If you drop this idea of mine right into 1888 London, it fits in so well that it's scarey. Think about it. This idea could explain why the police might have been led to think that JtR was one guy killing alone AND, at the same time, why some of them might have been right at times about there being TWO men doing the killings. Stranger things have happened in reality and involving murders but keep in mind that MY goal is to have fun, enjoy the discussions and make you think. If nothing else, this idea sure beats ANYTHING that Pat Cornwell can come up with!!!

[Robert Linford]

Hi Instructor

Although I don't go along with the twins idea, it does bring out something about the security aspects of Jack, i.e. I think that those favouring a gang theory are on shaky ground. A man would have to be a fool to be a member of a Ripping gang. Too many tongues to be loosened by drink, too many clues to be left by too many people, too much risk of betrayal etc. A two man team would be better, but it would have to be a very close partnership, maybe homosexual, for both of them to feel safe. But brothers, that's different. I believe I'm right in saying that the villains of the east end have historically been made up of a high percentage of families, especially brothers.

Robert

[Howard Brown]

I would lean towards what Robert mentioned about possibly two men with either an affinity towards each other or possibly two seriously screwed up characters who just happened to make the most of their mutual madness.

One problem....not that it did occur...would be if they had a falling out which troubled one of the partners to such a degree that should said partner get arrested, he might wish to take his former associate "down with him". This is nothing new.

It happened in the case of the Hillside Stranglers, where the perpetrators were not brothers, but cousins....and with Italians, which the Stranglers were, cousins are like twin,identical brothers compared to other ethnic groups, like say the Hungarians. No offense meant to any of you guineas.

I think its an idea worth pursuing, Instructor. Your years in law enforcement are far more fact-filled than some armchair detective's like my observations are.

[Mags]

That's OK,Howie, we guineas don't get mad, we get even. My cousin knows where you live.:rolleyes:

Anyway, the twins ting might be interesting to alibi a suspect but unless someone was charged or seriously suspected by the police and needed an alibi I don't see where it gets us anywhere.

[Howard Brown]

I knew that would get you riled up !!! I saw you on the site, Mags ! Just don't send Stan around...he's a pretty big boy and Italian.:rolleyes:

I suppose that to expand the possibilities of what type of individuals may have been behind the murders, including a set of twins or brothers, where one provides an alibi for the other, this isn't such a bad idea.

I know that two Ripperologists, Stan Reid and Rob Hills, over on Casebook....have two brothers ( The Hardiman's ) tagged as the Ripper...but each has a different brother in mind....unless of course they have changed their minds lately.

[Instructor 173]

Think like a :rant: CRIMINAL, guys!!! You're thinking normal. Here's the key to the alibi idea. Let's say Howard and I decide to go ripping. BEFORE we begin ripping, we lay out our general plans for that night. The alibi is JUST IN CASE the one doing the ripping needs one. So, the police go after Howard because he was seen talking to one of the women. He tells them that they must be mistaken because he was at the Ten Bells Pub. He can say that he even had a run-in :boink: with a local guy and got loud or pushed him. Actually, I was at the Ten Bells Pub pushing a guy and getting loud. Since no harm was done, I just left the area and went home. The cops who think that they have JtR aka Howard take him around the the Ten Bells and everybody says, "He was here last night being mean." So the cops let Howard go and see if they can find somebody else who was in the area that could have been JtR that WILL confess to the crime. Maybe next time I do the ripping and Howard sets up the alibi. The third time both Howard and I rip which could explain why some crimes seem to have been done by two people. After all, Howard and I already have alibis for the first two killings so there is no way either of us can be linked to them so we're probably NOT linked to the third one either. See how easy this would be for a pair of homicidal twin brothers to be JtR and get away with it? When you think like a normal person, you're actually thinking like a cop in 1888 London and you're discounting the twins idea because that's EXACTLY what they would have done too! Think devious. Quit reading that Patricia :puke: Cornwell crap. Think like Sherlock Holmes or Agatha Christie. It takes a guy with a devious mind :loco: to catch another guy with a :loco: devious mind. Less than 1% of the cops I know would have a mind that lets them think like a hardcorp criminal. You guys have hashed and re-hashed ideas about JtR to the point that just about every other idea has been used up, found to be invalid and then tossed aside. Hash this idea out very carefully.

Howard, I'm telling you... You better copyright this idea and run with it, buddy. Just send me my 50% while I sit at home and sip my tea from my easy chair.

[Mike Covell]

The concept of the Prestige was "The magic of having a twin" although it's no revealed until the final moment.

For years they kept hiding in each others shadow with only one seen at any one time, and the other always in disguise.

An excellent film and well recommended.

It's set in London shortly after the ripper murders.

Mike

[Instructor 173]

There you go. That movie just re-inforces the saying that, "What is old is new again." Sort of like the Gatling gun. The original Gatling guns were hand cranked. Modern day Gatlings are electrically operated and chain-driven for a faster rate of fire. Its kind of interesting to see this come up now.

[Mags]

OK, I can think like a criminal--no big stretch for me:

I NEED ( for whatever reason) to slit throats, open abdomens and mutilate. I must do it when the need comes. I am fast, silent and strong.

Now I ( Maria) just can't conceive more than one person being responsible for these particular murders. Sure, there have been cases like Hillside or Ng and Long ( Long?is that right) where two people have committed these horrid crmes but they usuallly involve some kind of kidnap, not blitz on the street. All the planning involved with the twins ( let's do it tonight, you go to the Ten Bells and I'll troll along Flower and Dean street) just doesn't seem right.

There are few things that I absolutely rule out in this case, but more than a solitary killer is one. Only because it just doesn't sit well. Just a hunch. I may have been wrong before some time in my life so.....

[Instructor 173]

Look, the idea of a pair of twin brothers being killers is something that, even today, most cops would not comprehend. It would blow right past them like it would have done in 1888. Some of the murders in 1888 look like they were done by one man and some look like the work of two people. The Double Event is a pretty good description where two people were probably involved. If you allow that there were two people involved on the night of the Double Event, then things are not as rushed. More deliberation is allowed. Could one person have pulled off the Double Event? Yes, but they would have been seriously rushed to do what was done to both women. Why not make the better assumption or use the better theory that there were TWO people? When you use two people in the Double Event it smooths things out as far as the attacks and the mutilations. This is exactly why the police in 1888, at least some of them, thought that there may have been two people involved on that night but they stopped short of where they should have gone: to the twins idea.

[WRITEFX]

Instructor, If I think Whitechapel and twins I'm reminded of the Kray twins.

But about JTR, there's also a film called 'Jack's Back' about twins.

[Howard Brown]

Nice point, WFX.

I also think of the two Henderson brothers, who although not serial killers, bludgeoned Ramon Navarro, the silent film actor, to death in 1968....ramming a lead dildo down his throat in the coup de grace. All for a wad of cash they thought Navarro had stashed somewhere in his L.A. home.

[Mike Covell]

Nice point, WFX.

I also think of the two Henderson brothers, who although not serial killers, bludgeoned Ramon Navarro, the silent film actor, to death in 1968....ramming a lead dildo down his throat in the coup de grace. All for a wad of cash they thought Navarro had stashed somewhere in his L.A. home.

A Lead Dildo?????

Surely those would be dangerous??:nono:

[Mags]

Inspector, I don't understand what you mean abouut the Double Event. Do you mean that if there were two people one could have killed Stride and one Eddowes? Or do you mean that they both attacked Eddowes and that's how so much damage was done in such a short time?

[Instructor 173]

Mags, on Sept. 30, 1888, two women were killed in one night. Both murders, Eddowes' and Stride's, were attributed to having been done by JtR. The distance between the two murders almost makes it impossible to believe that only one killer was involved. Could both murders have been done by one person? Maybe BUT it seems almost unlikely because such a double act by one person would have been very, very hurried. This is why some officers of the period thought that there were two people involved in the killings. Others thought that JtR used some sort of carriage to carry out his killings. If two people were involved, why not twin brothers? The idea of a pair of twins being involved fits in pretty nice when you consider everything. Look at a map of the sites where the murders occurred and you'll see what I mean.

[Mags]

Here's a truncated timeline of that night:

12:40 am Stride is in a tussle with a man outside Dutfield's Yard

1:00 Diemshutz finds Stride's body


1:00 Eddowes is released from Bishopsgate Police Station

1:35 Eddowes and a man are observed on Duke St at Church St Passage entrance

1:45 PC watkins discovers Eddowes body in Mitre Sq.


Lets assume that the WM did kill Stide. Let's assume that he did it just one minute before Deimshutz found her. Even then, the killer has about a half hour to run into Kate, take her into the Square and kill her. Plenty of time to get between the two murder scenes.

The big question with Eddowes is was it really possible to inflict that much damage in about 10 minutes? The coroner thought it was.

So I still don't see why there had to be two people involved.

[Instructor 173]

Back in 1888, police officers had different ideas about JtR. On the night of the Double Event, some officers thought that TWO killers had to have been involved. One struck at one location and a second one struck at the other location. Another theory that went around about JtR was that he used a horse or carriage on the night of Double Event to get from one place to another to do the two killings. Some officers saw indications in one or both of the murders that happened prior to the night of Double Event that there may have been two people involved in the killings. So, different officers had different ideas about how many people were involved in killing the women back in 1888. That still happens to this day when a dead body or murder victim turns up. If we try to say that only one person was involved in the killings, sometimes it just does NOT quite fit. By the same token, there are times when the idea of two men being JtR does NOT quite fit the crime scene either. So, if we look at some scenes as having been done by two men and some done by one man, we might have better luck fitting all the crime scenes together. For example, trying to fit two men into the crime scene where Mary Kelly was killed does NOT seem to work. However, if we allow for two killers doing two killings in London on the same night, then that could easily explain the Double Event and NOT put either one of the killers in a rush mode. So, Murders # 1 and # 2 were done by lone killers. Murders # 3 and # 4 were done by a pair of men in two separate locations. Murder # 5, MJK, was done by a lone killer. Question is: Right after the murder of Mary Jane Kelly, was there a major wreck or accident in late 1888 or early 1889 which two brothers, possibly twins, died? For example, was there a steam ship that blew up somewhere on the coast of England or on a river where twin brothers died that were from London. How about a train wreck where a pair of twin brothers died? Carriage wreck? If we could confirm such an event as happening in late December of 1888 or in January or early February of 1889, then we MIGHT be able to see how those dead brothers might fit into our JtR crime scenes.

[Big Jon]

Bump up

Because - I've got a Sherlock Holmes film on dvd, made by the BBC a few Christmas ago. It's a story written especially for the tv, not a Conan Doyle adaption. In it Holmes investigates a series of West End murders of young girls from titled families in 1903 (I think that's the year anyway).

It's called the Case of the Silk Stocking, and starred Rupert Everett as Holmes.

I'm now gonna spoil the end, so look away if you don't wanna know.
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No longer looking? Good.
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This guy was positively ID'd by a girl who got away, but he had an alibi and the fingerprints didn't match. Holmes deduced (as by now you all have) the murderer were a pair of twin brothers, providing each other with an alibi and a set of fingerprints when the police came a calling.

[Currerbell]

You think the Ripper had a twin??!!

[Nemo]

Hmmm - I'm not struck on this idea inspector

I think there are some indications in the case that possibly two people were involved

I suppose it is possible the two were identical twins and that one created an alibi for the other - but unlikely I think

Liz Stride could also be a "diversion" for the later killing - but that would be highly speculative and I think the Ripper(s) would not have been able to guarantee anything occurring as per their plan after the first killing.

If they were meant to be two seperate killings, then neither would have an alibi would they?

Yes - this may have been a special night where they both decided to kill - but killing at or very near the same time would have indicated to the police that there were two killers and so render their ruse redundant.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Hmmm - I'm not struck on this idea inspector

I think there are some indications in the case that possibly two people were involved



The notion of lookout/killer has always intrigued me.

[String]

Veering off slightly.
What about instead of 2 killers 1 killer and a look-out man?
I always thought of this as a possibility given the frequency of the police beats, vigilantes touring round and the general risk of being caught.
I do know it's highly unlikely.

[Howard Brown]

There are a few cases of serial killer brothers since 1888...and that there were two men seen in prximity of each other by Schwartz on Berner Street( probably not together, but possibly nontheless)...a man looking for another individual after the Mitre Square murder ( James Blekingskop's story ) and on the outside and waaaay out in left field in terms of it being a Ripper murder, that one Guardsman was approached by PC Barrett and told he was waiting for his mate in the vicinity of Tabram's murder.

There may be one more that I am overlooking here. If you can remember it,please mark it down.

[dougie]

Would the Two killers Have to be Twins? Why not just two individuals?

[Nemo]

Another obvious occasion is that Hutchinson could have been an accomplice (lookout) to Blotchy (killer)

[dougie]

What would the lookouts motive be? purely to act as a lookout? or maybe to chop n change (excuse the pun) i,e you do the killing tonight ,while I keep watch...next time its my turn?

[Currerbell]

Do we think 2 people could have killed Mary Kelly?

....I sometimes wonder if more than one person could have done all those mutilations alone...

[Nemo]

I'm not sure about 2 killers - though it would tie in with (2 weapons) Martha Tabram and possibly (gang attack) Emma Smith, (BS & pipe-man) Liz Stride, the double event, Hutchinson & Blotchy/Astrakhan...

Come to think of it - I COULD go for 2 killers - it could also explain some of the different wounds of the C5
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I could definitely be persuaded that there was a lookout / accomplice though

Pipeman / Hutchinson as a paid/loyal bodyguard/guide for BS / Blotchy?

(An East end Guide to true depravity? He would truly have earned the title "Tour guide from Hell... a la Tim Roth's "Hostel"?)

[Howard Brown]

It might be worth repeating here that on November 23rd, the offer of a pardon for anyone who may have been in any way involved with Kelly's murder was offered...and Matthews mentions that circumstances ( I am not giving the exact verbatim phrase here,only going on memory) at the scene gave pause for thought that perhaps someone may have assisted in the Millers Court Massacre.

[Currerbell]

The more I think about it and read the posts here...maybe 2 were involved at the Kelly murder....it would have been quicker to mutilate her...and she may have been 'happy' with the thought of 2 payments for her 'duty' that night to help pay the rent that she owed....

[SirRobertAnderson]

It might be worth repeating here that on November 23rd, the offer of a pardon for anyone who may have been in any way involved with Kelly's murder was offered...

Are you sure that was the date the pardon was offered ? I ask because I remember an old thread on the Casebook where a number of people were discussing how curious it was GH came around to the police the day AFTER he would have learned of a pardon for an accomplice. If memory serves there was some controversy about when GH could have learned about a pardon, because he obviously came forward on the 12th, after the inquest.

Is this a found memory ? The discussion would have taken place around 2006 when I started a thread called "The Lying Lies of George Hutchinson, the Liar".

[SirRobertAnderson]

Is this a found memory ? The discussion would have taken place around 2006 when I started a thread called "The Lying Lies of George Hutchinson, the Liar".

From the Ultimate Source Book :

MEPO 3/3153 ff.-5-8 is a letter to Sir Charles Warren from the Home Office, November 10 that says: '...the Sec. of State will advise the grant of a Her Majesty's gracious pardon to any accomplice, not being the person who contrived or actually committed the murder, who shall give such information and evidence as shall lead to the discovery and conviction of the murderer or murderers.'

[Nemo]

Wasn't there also a £100 reward poster in the vicinity of Millers Court that Hutchinson would have been aware of?

It may indicate that he was not motivated by monetary reward if he did not come forward for days to collect it. There might have been a trigger for him to step up - either the inquest testimony or the pardon are good examples of such a trigger/motive for his actions.

[Howard Brown]

Bobby & Nemo:

I see that on November 10th, Henry Matthews communicated with Geoffrey Lushington and stated "no reward to be offered" Again,thats the 10th,the day after Kelly's murder.

There was a question raised in the House of Commons regarding the pardon on November 23rd by Mr. Hunter ( Aberdeen) to Matthews (Birmingham E)...This is what I meant before. Thats on page 387 of The Ultimate.

[Howard Brown]

Damn it ! I can't remember the date the reward was last suggested and then refused. I believe that no Government reward was ever offered, but the pardon was...( I should know this like the back of my hand....:banghead:)

[Currerbell]

I was thinking last night about the idea of there being 2 Rippers who worked together...

1)Tabram had 2 different weapon marks on her body...2 people?

2) The Stride murder, wasnt there a witness saying there was a person looking out who shouted Lipski at him? Could he have gone and warned the other one attacking Stride that the carter was approaching the yard and to escape? Before he did any more damage to her body...

3) Could one person have written the Goulston St Graffiti or put the apron there whilst the other cleaned themselves up after attacking Eddowes?

4) I honestly now think that it must have taken 2 people to attack and mutilate Mary Kelly...

What do others think?

[Nemo]

There is quite a story told supposedly from Rasputin's papers that suggests a group of/double murderers

The one interesting aspect about this story is that one was named "Livitsky" which I thought could have been an alternative to the shout of "Lipski"

Not that I put any faith in this story but...

[Howard Brown]

Currerbell...allow me to introduce you to Stan Russo.

Stan is one of the foremost advocates of the "Double Killer" concept.

Run your ideas by him....and I think that its possible that someone aided and/or abetted the Kelly killer in some way, if I read the November 23rd comments issued in the House of Commons by Henry Matthews correctly.

[Currerbell]

Ahh right..so Im not alone then!

Well if he reads this thread...Id be interested to hear more about his ideas on it...

[admin tim]

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=50

[Currerbell]

thanks for the link admin...

[ferret]

I'm sure Currerbell that there weren't two people-

Tantalising as that may seem.

My theory- that I'll never be swayed from- is that the killer was a local who was known and trusted by the residents (permanent or otherwise) of Dorset St and it's environs-Someone who could blend into the background of the day to day 'traffic' - someone who practically became invisible through their familiarity

- Now who he or she was is something I'd be happy to discuss into the early hours..:faint:..but to what effect I don't know.

[Currerbell]

ooooohhh, so you think it may have been a woman??!!

[Archaic]

Hi, 173. The Ripper Twins, eh? Hmmm.......I have vague memories of an old Star Trek episode something like this... or was that Kirk & the Evil Anti-Kirk? Having given your imaginative solution due consideration, I think it`s sheer genius. Just make the Ripper Twins young, blonde, and female, and you`ve got a Screenplay!

[Howard Brown]

Archaic:

Me n 'Robert Linford are twins..few know this. Until now.

I have all the looks and brains...and he had this capacity to have successfully bribed every caption judge we ever had on this site...until you of course.

[Currerbell]

when it comes to the Ripper, anything goes...

[String]

Archaic:

Me n 'Robert Linford are twins..few know this. Until now.

I have all the looks and brains...and he had this capacity to have successfully bribed every caption judge we ever had on this site...until you of course.

Which one is the evil twin?