The Diary as Literature

[SirRobertAnderson]

I'm thinking we should have a thread just on the literary merit - or lack thereof - of the Diary, as well as the question of whether or not it should matter. I.e. if it was a homespun masterpiece, would we give it more credence ? Should we have expected Maybrick as Jack to have been a better author ?

[How Brown]

Bob:

By all means,set one up...or use this thread for that.

One thing that struck me when I read the Diary is the absence of any vulgarities, save the extreme use of the word "whore" or its derivatives. I counted them once about 3 years or so ago....and there's about 120 instances of that word.

Funny that no other ( and please correct me if I am wrong ) scatological terms appear. "Damn" and derivatives excluded...

[How Brown]

Whoops ! I forgot the word "bitch'.

[Caroline Morris]

I think the almost total absence of apostrophes deserves a mention too. I believe this would be fairly unusual among writers of the late 20th century, but I don't know about the late 19th, or any period in between.

It's not just that the author omits them when they are required (although he does on a number of occasions). It's the fact that little or nothing takes the shortened form we use so much today in informal writing, eg don't, can't, won't, shan't, isn't, wasn't, etc etc. They are conspicuous by their absence.

The only place (as I've said elsewhere) the author really needed one, and needed to know exactly where to put it, because the real James would almost certainly have known, was St. James's [as in the church where James and Florie tied the knot] - and it's rendered correctly.

So many people get this type of word wrong today, right up to university professor level, and would think it perfectly correct to write St. James'.

Now I'm sorry and all that, but to my mind this one instance alone rules out anyone with the IQ of a sandwich. ;)

Love,

Caz
X

[SirRobertAnderson]

I thought this was a great post of yours from the Casebook....really hit the nail on the head. I snipped a bit to avoid reference to a non-member of the Forums.

I remain puzzled by critical references to the writing style of the Diarist. It's widely and repeatedly stated that it obviously a shoddy fake because it's poorly written.

Does this mean if it was a tautly written thriller ala Gresham that it'd be accepted as legitimate ????






And of course, someone wrote the diary, and would have had their own motivation for doing so; their own unique character and state of mind; their own knowledge, understanding and experiences; and their own opinions, beliefs and convictions - none of which can be guessed at from the diary text ....

So if it’s impossible to say the author was, or could have been, serial killer material, writing a truthful or fanciful account of a serial killer’s thoughts and deeds, then it’s equally impossible...to say the author is as sane as the next person, and was only pretending to have the mind of someone who wasn’t, in a serious attempt to pass off the diary as a wholly factual account written by a real killer.

And there we meet the first problem - the assumption that anyone insane enough, or corrupt enough, to commit such murders, and then commit his thoughts about them to paper, would produce an accurate, well written, honest-to-goodness () account of himself, or could do so even if his life depended on it. It’s mad, isn’t it? .....all I am saying is that it’s totally unrealistic and unreasonable to expect such high standards, whoever’s work it was, least of all the work of the devil. The author was obliged to create a lying, fantasising, hopelessly flawed narcissist. We don't know that he/she could not have been somewhere along that road to start with.

[Chris G.]

I thought this was a great post of yours from the Casebook....really hit the nail on the head. I snipped a bit to avoid reference to a non-member of the Forums.

I remain puzzled by critical references to the writing style of the Diarist. It's widely and repeatedly stated that it obviously a shoddy fake because it's poorly written.

Does this mean if it was a tautly written thriller ala Gresham that it'd be accepted as legitimate ????

So if it’s impossible to say the author was, or could have been, serial killer material, writing a truthful or fanciful account of a serial killer’s thoughts and deeds, then it’s equally impossible...to say the author is as sane as the next person, and was only pretending to have the mind of someone who wasn’t, in a serious attempt to pass off the diary as a wholly factual account written by a real killer.

And there we meet the first problem - the assumption that anyone insane enough, or corrupt enough, to commit such murders, and then commit his thoughts about them to paper, would produce an accurate, well written, honest-to-goodness () account of himself, or could do so even if his life depended on it. It’s mad, isn’t it? .....all I am saying is that it’s totally unrealistic and unreasonable to expect such high standards, whoever’s work it was, least of all the work of the devil. The author was obliged to create a lying, fantasising, hopelessly flawed narcissist. We don't know that he/she could not have been somewhere along that road to start with.

I don't think you have to be a serial killer to write as if you are one or to be able to get into the mind of a serial murderer. After all, we're not saying that Edgar Allan Poe or Stephen King were serial killers just because they could simulate the mind, thoughts, and actions of such a murderer. And nor of course just because I am citing the examples of Poe and King am I saying that the Diary is great literature, just that non-serial killers can and do simulate the thought processes of SK's.

Chris

[Caroline Morris]

I don't think you have to be a serial killer to write as if you are one or to be able to get into the mind of a serial murderer. After all, we're not saying that Edgar Allan Poe or Stephen King were serial killers just because they could simulate the mind, thoughts, and actions of such a murderer. And nor of course just because I am citing the examples of Poe and King am I saying that the Diary is great literature, just that non-serial killers can and do simulate the thought processes of SK's.

Chris

Hi Chris,

With respect, I think you may be missing the point Sir Robert and I are trying to make here.

I am not saying that no creative writer could have produced the diary text unless they were some kind of monster.

I am saying the opposite in fact - that it's impossible for anyone else to say that the diary author was not some kind of monster in their own right. Judging by the demons they have let loose by writing it (and allowing Keith Skinner to trace it to the Maybrick house), I wouldn't have the sod down as Mother Teresa - would you? ;)

We don't know that it was ever meant to be literature, never mind great literature, although I'm reluctant to rule out any possibility. I still quite like the idea of a late Victorian sick, satirical and literally 'in-house' joke, by an author (like a few writing for Punch in the late 1880s) who never imagined it would be taken at face value, but wanted to give polite society, with all its po-faced double standards, righteous indignation and hypocrisy, in the wake of the Maybrick Trial, a hefty kick up the backside with a funny little literary hoax.

The text tells us next to nothing about the person writing it, because just as a mild-mannered storyteller can create a monster, a brilliant mind can also create a very flawed one, equipped with a less than perfect memory, bags of wishful thinking, a warped sense of its own achievement and importance, average grammar and spelling and terrible poetry.

One can't have it both ways. If a modern hoaxer was pretending to be someone else: a drug addict, an adulterer and serial killer, all rolled into one, they were pretending to have a whole array of imperfections, none of which need apply to the hoaxer him/herself. If pro-diarists make the mistake of taking what 'Sir Jim' writes literally, then modern hoax theorists make the mistake of assuming the hoaxer is writing to the very best of their own (creative and linguistic) abilities and betraying a whole array of their own weaknesses in the process. It is also assumed that their work falls far short of what the real James, or the real Jack, or a combination of both, would have been capable of producing. That's a hell of a lot of assumption right there.

Who knows what the creative writing of the arsenic-eating Liverpool cotton merchant, leading a secretive double life, may have looked like? Ditto for the ripper, embarking on his dark journey into the history books? That would have been the serious hoaxer's task to combine and reproduce - assuming that's what we have here.

I think it's worth repeating the great line you came out with yourself on another thread:

"It was life copying art copying life again."

For all we know, that could have been what the diary author set out to capture - warts and all.

Have a great weekend all.

Love,

Caz
X

[WRITEFX]

I think it's one of those subjects that will always get opposite reactions.

I once wrote from a killer's point of view and had some very surprising reactions from people that knew me. Some said it was the best thing they read, others said I was deranged :(

Lack of apostrophes. I've come across that in published fictional diaries especially set in older times.

[Caroline Morris]

Hi All,

I think it may be of interest to compare this real killer and some of his published diary extracts with the efforts of our own author regarding 'Sir Jim'.

We have seen no end of unqualified speculation in the past about serial killers not keeping a diary to record thoughts about their exploits; not making predictions; not planning a campaign of action etc etc.

I think there are also a couple of interesting parallels with the real Jack here, concerning location and victim choice.

See what you think:

Budding serial killer gets life

A man hooked on crime novels has been jailed for a minimum of 24 years after he admitted murdering his lover.

****, 50, hit ****, 65, over the head with a claw hammer and slit his throat in Hampstead, north London, in June 2005.

The Old Bailey heard **** was obsessed with the works of Patricia Highsmith and PD James.

He had scoured nearby Hampstead Heath for gay men to kill in his quest to be a serial killer, the court heard.

'Ruthlessly planned'

Retired English teacher **** was murdered at his flat... a month after starting a relationship with ****.

**** had laid the body out in the shape of a cross and fled with ****'s collection of classical CDs.

The court heard **** kept a diary in which he recorded his progress towards becoming a serial killer.

"Always wanted to commit, or as I say, do a murder, ever since last summer, but lost my bottle and it's a bit depressing," read one entry.

Referring to ****, **** wrote: "I lust after his CD collection. I have decided I want to do it, his time is up."

After the murder, he wrote he "had thought of everything" to do with the forensic examination of ****'s flat adding "I am a genius".

Judge **** said the diaries made it clear the murder was "as premeditated as it can get, ruthlessly planned and remorsefully executed".

"I have no doubt, if you had not been apprehended, you would have carried out further murders," he added...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4817544.stm

---------------------------------------------------------

A GAY Irish psychiatric nurse who planned a spree of homosexual murders has been jailed for life.

**** ruthlessly killed his lover for his CD collection - and then coolly wrote about it in his diary...

...**** met **** last year at Hampstead Heath, a gay cruising haunt.

He kept a diary and wrote of his desire to strangle **** and steal his opera CDs.

On May 29, he wrote: "Thought of a plan to do him with a hammer while he is in his chair. I have it down to a fine art."

On June 3, he drank a glass of wine with **** at his flat and struck him with a hammer as planned.

His diary read: "There was a struggle. He had some fight left in him, so I brought him to the ground. He made a noise but I covered his mouth. He tried to beat me, so I cut his throat."...

...After working in America **** went back to Ireland to care for his parents who had both become ill.

**** was later treated for psychiatric illness and attempted suicide.

His diary included plans to murder another homosexual he met and it was clear that he planned a series of murders.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20060326/ai_n16172179

------------------------------------------------------------

**** was obsessed with crime novels, including those by Patricia Highsmith and PD James, and kept a diary detailing his plans to murder **** and other gay men he met on the heath...

...During the search of his room at the **** Hotel in Finchley Road, diaries and notes were found along with the hunting knife which had traces of ****'s blood on it.

One diary entry dated May 3 read: "Called to **** [victims' middle name]. Wanted to strangle him then."

On the 28 May he wrote: "Wanted to do some mischief but the floor were so thin the neighbour would hear. Then I realised If I did him on the heath that would be the end of the heath. I thought of a plan to do him. I will buy a hammer, do him in one blow while he is sitting in his chair. I lust after his CD collection."

And chillingly the entry for June 3 read: " It was a struggle. He had more fight left in him. I brought him to the ground. He started to [scream] but I covered his mouth. He tried to beat me so I cut his throat.

"So the knock to the head is nothing for a quiet death. I needed the knife."

And in his writings he made reference to his favourite crime writers and wrote: "Always wanted to commit, or as I say, do a murder ever since last summer, but lost my bottle and it's a bit depressing.

"I have selected **** as my first candidate and then **** will be next. I will have to do it in the open which will be more of a challenge and I may have to do a run for it. This signals the end of the heath, at least for this season.

"They will never survive the penetrating blow to the brain like the blow I gave to ****. The crucial ten seconds of struggle that can make all the difference."...

http://www.lifestyleextra.com/ShowStory.asp?story=WU2722031O&news_headline=sadistic_gay_killer_faces_life_behin d_bars

[Stephen Leece]

Graham Young kept a diary too (charting his poisonings) but that has never been released into the public domain.

[WRITEFX]

Graham Young kept a diary too (charting his poisonings) but that has never been released into the public domain.

Was that the man that tried it out on his family first when he was a boy?

Thanks Caz for that other information.

[Stephen Leece]

Yes he poisoned his mother (killed her), sister and a school friend. Did I think 10 years in Broadmoor, released, references by the HO got him a job in a photographic factory and he proceeded to poison his work colleagues there using Thallium killing two of them. Had a heart attack in 1990 at Ashworth- rumours are that he may have been killed by other inmates though. Good friends with Ian Brady because they both had a fascination for Nazi iconography.

[WRITEFX]

Thanks, I read a lot about him years ago but couldn't remember if it was the same person or not. I always had a feeling that there was a particular reason for his behaviour as he seemed to fit the profile (or rather criteria) for a condition I have a lot of personal knowledge about.

[Stephen Leece]

You mean he was nuts? I believe the Scientific term is Nuttinus Fruitcakeimus. :happy:

[WRITEFX]

No, I don't think he was nuts as you put it. I probably shouldn't have bought that subject up as I don't plan to elaborate. So I'll shut up about it.

[Stephen Leece]

I could tell the way you phrased it you weren't going to elaborate so I thought it best to crack a Pythonesque joke and move on.

[Caroline Morris]

Graham Young tried to make out that his diary was written as the basis for a novel he was planning to write.

I'd dearly love to know if it looks anything like the basis for a novel. Isn't Anne Graham's story that she gave Mike the Maybrick diary via Tony Devereux, in the hope that hubby would make it 'the basis for a novel' and so keep himself usefully occupied and out of the pub? Not that I believe she was telling the God's honest truth or anything...

It seems like Young, and my gay killer, just wanted to see what it was like to kill, and their victim and location choices reflect suitability and familiarity. The gay psychiatric nurse knew he could find vulnerable men on the heath so that's where he went to seek one out. Simple and effective.

Q: What have all serial killers got in common?

A: They kill. :judge:

Comedian Lee Mack's response, last night on Paul Merton's "Thank God You're Here!", while ad-libbing his socks off in the role of a criminal profiler called in to help with a serial murder inquiry.

As good an answer as any other I've heard lately.

Love,

Caz
X

[Caroline Morris]

Before I forget, look at the age of the gay psychiatric nurse, who embarked on a murderous campaign, targeting a type that was all too familiar to him. He was 50, and the first poor sod to fall prey to his approaches on Hampstead Heath was 65.

And so another enduring myth bites the dust: the 'too old to start' theory.

This case proves it's never too late, while the flesh is still strong enough to do an evil spirit's bidding.

Love,

Caz
X