Death by Beer?

[A.P. Wolf]

I found this report from the 'Manchester Times' of November 30th 1900 to be of abiding interest, for it indicates that Maybrick may well have died from some kind of epidemic associated with the brewing of beer.
Lucky I drink brandy.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/beer1.jpg

[How Brown]

Dear A.P.

As soon as I extricate my broadsword from Robert The Saxon's backside...I will knight thee !

This is an excellent find. I wonder if anyone has ever seen this report before.

[Mike Covell]

Would a drunk be able to write a diary????

Great find, i love old newspapers.:humble:

[A.P. Wolf]

Quite right, How, I don't believe this has ever surfaced before, and it makes good common sense doesn't it... and just sort of blows away all the conceptions and preconceptions we have of the Maybrick saga.
Love it.

[ferret]

Hi AP -

Apart from the wonderful prospect that beer is bad for us (I've always suspected that so stick to the Vodski!) ....There are some wonderful pieces in this clipping.... (apart from the fact that I feel peripheral neutritus coming on as I type!)

I'm tantalised by who the 'eminent London public analyst' could have been -and as an afterthought -the Cadburys Cocoa...'A valuable nutritive food'-'The Lancet'.......good to know it's endorsed by the medical boys 'eh hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:llama::smoker:!!!

Suzi x

[ferret]

Would a drunk be able to write a diary????

Great find, I love old newspapers too.:humble:

Ooooooooooh yes Mike!!!.......One did!!!....and yes the 'odd 'book (!) referring to some Freemasonic link etc etc (without predjucice!):puke:
Old newspapers are the BEST mind you when you finally find the remains of todays Telegraph about Thursday that's quite entertaining too![gives you a hint as to what happened on Sunday!] -:emptybath: calls!!!!maybe!!!

Suz x

[ferret]

Quite right, How, I don't believe this has ever surfaced before, and it makes good common sense doesn't it... and just sort of blows away all the conceptions and preconceptions we have of the Maybrick saga.
Love it. Me too AP and it sort of makes Florrie and the Flypapers (sounds disturbingly and oddly amusingly like a band!) not the seriously nice woman we always suspected!!!

ROBERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That wouldn't be typed in an Irish accent would it??? (she says editing like mad! LOL)....That's why Mr Q is appearing UNDERNEATH me!!!CRIKEY!!!!!!!

Suzi x

[Robert Linford]

When I first saw the thread title I imagined it was something to do with Richard III.

[ferret]

He he a Mr Q sandwich!!! (Mercifully not an Edward II sandwich!!!eeeeeeeeeek!)

Seriously AP a great find!!!:peace:
Suzi x

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Folks
What is of interest here is that this outbreak of arsenic poisoning appears to have been centred around the sugar refiners of Liverpool... and it appears to be the case that prior to 1900 the brewing industry was totally unaware of the risk of accidental arsenic poisoning; and that many cases where a malicious intent to murder had been suspected - and proved - were in fact the results of this 'plague'.
One should note that even very moderate drinkers could be poisoned.
From 'The Times', 28th November 1900:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/arsenic1.jpg

[Chris G.]

Hello AP

While the idea that James Maybrick OD'd on beer is certainly interesting, there appears to be no evidence that he did. Rather it would seem that other substances nearer and dearer to his heart, or else, the absence thereof, finished him off.

Chris

[A.P. Wolf]

Ah but, Chris, where he did get that thing that killed him?
The 'Hampshire Telegraph' of December 1st 1894 has an useful insight.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/mrs20maybrick1.jpg

[Paul Butler]

I'd never put James Maybrick down as a beer drinker, more a whisky and soda man, but who knows? A very interesting find.

As to whether a drunk could have written the diary? Well there have been plenty prepared to believe that a late 20th century drunk did just that!

Regards.

Paul

[A.P. Wolf]

Yes, Paul, it's an interesting old business isn't it just?
That poor old Maybrick might have been murdered by a pint of beer.
I would imagine that when he was feeling unwell he probably drank quite a bit of beer, as it was considered to be safer than the water.
Does the writer/milker of the Liverpool Dairy make any mention of alcohol?
Whenever I read it, I get tangled up in fly paper.

[Paul Butler]

Hi AP.

Other than taking "refreshment at the Poste House", I can't think of any other mentions of Sir Jim's liking for alcohol. That is assuming of course that he is referring to something other than a nice cup of tea, when he talks about refreshment. We are only assuming it's supposed to mean a pub!

"Tonight I will celebrate by wining and dining George" was the only other mention I could find in the whole diary.

I'm not sure that Liverpool's water was considered unsafe as late as the 1880s and beyond. I just don't see Sir Jim as the beer swilling sort, but I could of course be very wrong there.

regards.

Paul

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Paul
I must say I'm quite getting into this old Dairy business.
Michael Maybrick removed a bottle of brandy from James' bedroom (see the Liverpool Mercury); and the Dairy also refers to an after dinner port.
As someone more informed than me, any ideas when James Maybrick sat for his portrait by JT Steadman, as the PMG reported on the 22nd May 1889 that Maybrick had told friends at the time that his 'life might not be a long one and he wanted a record of his bodily presence'.
This would be a marvelous indicator of his state of mind at the time the portrait was painted by Steadman.

I'm sure it has been covered before, probably in immense detail, so forgive my naive enquiry... and yet another.
When Mrs Maybrick said to Mrs Samuelson at the Grand National:
'I will give it to him hot and heavy!'
Was she the germ of the Dairy?

[Paul Butler]

Hi AP.

"Getting into this old diary business" can be quite addictive if you let it! Every time I read it I see something new or something that should maybe be interpreted in a different way. It's so important to try and read it without undue influence from others who have given their own interpretation of some parts of the text, which may or may not be the correct ones.

Caz and I were discussing the part of the diary immediately following Miller's Court the other day, and the traditional view that the diary claims seven attacks seems to be wrong. It looks much more like he is claiming two after Kelly and not one as many others have said, and just possibly our diarist could have been referring to Rose Mylett when he describes his final failed attack back in Whitechapel, London.

It's all so bloody intriguing and frustrating at the same time.

I think Brandy was part of James' arsenal of medicines during his final illness, although I'm sure it was also something he drank regularly anyhow.

I'm not sure he ever did sit for that portrait by Steadman. Has anyone ever seen it? Did it ever exist?

"Hot and heavy", isn't an expression I had heard of before, and I took it to be an Americanism meaning that Florrie was intending to lay into him with a vengeance.

Regards.

Paul

[Chris G.]

Thanks Paul
I must say I'm quite getting into this old Dairy business.
Michael Maybrick removed a bottle of brandy from James' bedroom (see the Liverpool Mercury); and the Dairy also refers to an after dinner port.
As someone more informed than me, any ideas when James Maybrick sat for his portrait by JT Steadman, as the PMG reported on the 22nd May 1889 that Maybrick had told friends at the time that his 'life might not be a long one and he wanted a record of his bodily presence'.
This would be a marvelous indicator of his state of mind at the time the portrait was painted by Steadman.

I'm sure it has been covered before, probably in immense detail, so forgive my naive enquiry... and yet another.
When Mrs Maybrick said to Mrs Samuelson at the Grand National:
'I will give it to him hot and heavy!'
Was she the germ of the Dairy?

Mmmmmm. Did we know that J. T. Steadman (? - 1891) did a painting called "The Fisherman's Wife." I wonder. . . :rolleyes:

http://www.artnet.com/Artists/LotDetailPage.aspx?lot_id=024614633A3D827D

[Caroline Morris]

Hi All,

According to Maybrick author Bernard Ryan, the real Jim complained to his doctor in November 1888 of numbness in the left leg and hand after smoking heavily or taking 'too much wine'.

I also understand that 'taking refreshment' was a common Victorian euphemism for drinking alcohol (of any sort) and that the expression in the diary is therefore spot on, whether Sir Jim is meant to have been having a 'liquid lunch' in one of the old London Post Houses, or perhaps a 'quick one' down the local Post Office Tavern - Post House for short - while waiting for his evening train back to Aigburth.

It makes little sense to me that a pub-going heavy drinker in the late 1980s is supposed to have picked a post-1960s pub name for Sir Jim to use, while managing to find the appropriate expression for supping in any watering hole during the LVP.

Love,

Caz
X

[A.P. Wolf]

I did wonder whether the following tragic event so close to home exerted any influence on the minds of the Maybricks?
From 'The Times', November 12th 1888.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/Photo%20Thanksgiving/suicide1.jpg