The Great American Doctor, Tumlity

[A.P. Wolf]

Got some rock and roll to dance with Tumblety tonight.
This is rare old stuff.
First report: Liverpool Mercury January 11th 1875
Second report: LM, Jan 19th 1875.
Third report: LM, Jan 28th 1875.
Fourth report: Birmingham Daily Post, August 13th 1875.
Ladies and gentleman I give you the Great American Doctor, Tumlity.

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/the20great1.jpg

[A.P. Wolf]

And the very next thrilling installment:
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/tumlity2.jpg

[A.P. Wolf]

And the next thrilling episode:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/tumilty3.jpg

[A.P. Wolf]

And then of course the Great American Doctor had to leave town and sell his dubious wares elsewhere:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/birmingham1.jpg

[How Brown]

These are great finds, A.P. !!

Hey...maybe he really did kill someone after all,huh?

How about that Hanratty case ?!?!

This guy Tumbelty was like horseshit wasn't he? All over the place. He's got a place in Birmingham in the last excerpt.

Do you think its actually an office or maybe a mail drop ?

[Joe Chetcuti]

One by one, all of Palmer's hidden material gets exposed. This is like Chinese water torture for the poor guy! :mad:

This Liverpool account was such a sad story. It had a lot of similarity to the manner in which Tumblety did away with James Portmore in Canada. In both instances, Tumblety showed terrible disrespect to the widows of his victims. With Ann Hanratty, the doctor voluntarily handed her back 30 shillings. I noticed that right away.

Not that anyone cares about how my mind works, but I'll tell you the first thing I surmised when I read this story. Tumblety and Edward & Ann Hanratty eventually agreed to a price of 40 shillings for the quack's treatment. (2 English pounds.) On Monday, Tumblety told them to return on Wednesday to get their medicines. So the quack had two nights to prepare his special mixture.

On Wednesday, Tumblety handed Ann all of the medicine, and then he mysteriously gave her back 10 shillings. Meaning that he had taken from her a total of 30 shillings.

Edward swallowed Tumblety's mixture at 5pm, and after two fainting spells, he was dead within 4 hours.

On Thursday, Tumblety voluntarily returned "30" shillings to Ann for the death that was caused. Now Tumblety was in accord with the 30 pieces that Judas voluntarily returned for the death he caused by his betrayal. Satanists know their numbers.

As for the usage of the name Tumilty, that wasn't uncommon for the quack. The 1851-52 Rochester City Directory has Francis and his brother & mother listed under that name:

Lawrence Tumilty (Fireman)
Franklin Tumilty (Peddler)
Margaret Tumilty (Widow)

They were all listed as living in a house on Sophia Street.

[How Brown]

Joltin'

I certainly care how your mind works,old man.

Do you think that the guy Hanratty's death was sort of accelerated by Dr. T ?

[Joe Chetcuti]

Yes I do, Howard. We're talking about a quack here who had a history of working with savin oil. Portmore's death and Hanratty's death are so strangely similar.

Thanks for caring about how my mind works, Howard. Now if you care about Palmer, you'd talk him out of jumping off the roof.

[How Brown]

Joltin'

Rajah's on the roof? Oh brother.

We have to get him back here a.s.a.p. capece?

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks How and Smoking Joe
ah bless, have I yet again caught dear old RJP on the hop?
Actually chaps I found a lot more reports than just this, but my computer chose that moment to take itself off into cyber space, and I only just convinced it to come back, so there is a chance RJP can display some of his material today before I recommence the search tonight... after that, good night to any world firsts.
I must say this hidden English material does give one pause for thought; but the most important detail is that Tumblety got away with it yet again, with just a gentle ticking off in court.
The bloke had balls I'll give 'im that.

[Chris G.]

Hi AP

Excellent finds here, AP. Glad to see you are barking up a real tree for a change.

Chris

[Joe Chetcuti]

James Portmore died after taking Tumblety's bottle of liquid medicine. On the day he died, the quack swiped the incriminating bottle from Portmore's death bed and walked out the door with it. When Edward Hanratty died shortly after ingesting some of Tumblety's liquid medicine, Ann Hanratty made it even easier for the doctor this time around. She personally returned all the medicine to Tumblety the very next day on Thurs Jan 14, 1875. She should have gone straight to the police with that unmarked bottle, but instead she returned the medication to the doctor at his Duke Street office in Liverpool. Without that piece of evidence in the hands of the police, the chances of Tumblety getting away with Hanratty's death dramatically increased.

Compare the Post-Mortem exams of Hanratty and Portmore:


With Hanratty we hear...

Dr. Campbell Brown made an analysis of Hanratty's stomach and concluded that "the indication pointed to an opiate (having been digested) but he did not conclusively establish (the opiate's) presence."

(Dr. Bligh) could not trace distinctly that the condition of the brain suggested to his mind that anything in the nature of opium had been taken, but the condition was such as would be produced by an opiate.


It seemed like the two physicians were aware that Hanratty's body showed the effects of a drug inducement, but no trace of the drug itself could be discovered.

As for James Portmore's Post-Mortem exam, Dr. Humphrey and Dr. Botsford studied Portmore's stomach and stated:

"... in this instance the inflammation (of Portmore's stomach) was caused by some acid or other irritant introduced into the stomach, although they would not swear that it could not possibly be otherwise, and they could find no substance in the stomach when they made the examination."

Again we see the effects of an irritant that had been introduced into the victim's body, yet no trace of the irritant itself could be found.

If Tumblety was put on trial for Hanratty's death, you could bet the quack's defensive statement would be the same remark he gave in response to the manslaughter charges he faced for Portmore's death:

"A Post-Mortem examination was had, no traces of poison in the stomach, not the slightest indication of any deleterious drug."

[A.P. Wolf]

As you already know, Chris, I bark only at a full moon.
It does appear that Tumblety arrived in Liverpool a little before September 1874, as he announces his arrival in grand style in the local press on the 2nd September 1874, and from there on in he has a punishing schedule of advertisements running on almost a daily basis in the Liverpool Mercury and elsewhere.
Contrary wise most of these ads do appear at the end of coroner's reports on sudden and unexplained deaths, with Tumblety claiming that he can actually prevent such sudden and tragic losses.
My comment: !

As well as barking at full moons I often enjoy firing rubber bands at the sun. So 'ere is one of 'em.
Way back in the late 1850's - when I think Joe will agree me, that we are not completely aware of Tumblety's whereabouts - we come upon the remarkable American Botanic Doctor called Dr Airey, who found himself in a great deal of trouble for killing off his patients in Hull in exactly the same manner as we see Tumblety doing later in the 1870's; and also being done for exhibiting 'indecent prints' in his medical practise and lecture hall.
Finding himself in ever increasing hot water, the good Dr Airey fled to Bristol where he rapidly found himself up before the local magistrates for killing people there with his herbals... but damn he always got away with it.
Is this Airey Fairy none other than the gay tumult we seek?
I would say so.

Then another rubber band at the sun.
In July of 1888 the 'Roomkeeper's Society' of Dublin felt obliged to take an ad in the classifieds of 'Freeman's Journal' to announce that they had been duped by a bogus 'American Doctor' resident in England into announcing that said American Doctor had donated £1,500 for the poor of Dublin.
Sounds like Tumblety with his bags of flour to me.

[SirRobertAnderson]

These are great finds, A.P. !!

Hey...maybe he really did kill someone after all,huh?

How about that Hanratty case ?!?!

This guy Tumbelty was like horseshit wasn't he? All over the place. He's got a place in Birmingham in the last excerpt.

Do you think its actually an office or maybe a mail drop ?

This is fantastic material, A.P.

And How - I just don't see a slimebag like this running around slicing up whores. IF he was responsible for several deaths, the M.O. is so far away from that of the Ripper as to be laughable.

I envision him as a unholy blend of Dr. Cream and Truman Capote.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thank you, Sir Robert, and I am in complete agreement with you, Tumblety was far too busy killing off folks like us with herbals to have taken to the knife.

[Chris G.]

This is fantastic material, A.P.

And How - I just don't see a slimebag like this running around slicing up whores. IF he was responsible for several deaths, the M.O. is so far away from that of the Ripper as to be laughable.

I envision him as a unholy blend of Dr. Cream and Truman Capote.


Yes but Dr. Cream was no powder puff when it came to murdering prostitutes. :rolleyes:

[A.P. Wolf]

To answer your question, How, they were definite addresses, as Tumblety invited all and sundry around to both Union Passage in Birmingham, and to the Liverpool address as well, for a free fysical.
I have the advertisements on file.
I have also found a reference that indicates Tumblety could have been in Liverpool as early as 1863, but I need to firm that up.

[Dan Norder]

Satanists know their numbers.

Crackpots know their nonsense.

[A.P. Wolf]

Dan, I think we all need to get used to the new world we live in, where you peculiar guys have lost your hold on the peculiar vacuum that you peculiar guys lived in, where you held sway because of the information you possessed. And made profit out of it.
By a few swerves and dodges I have radically advanced the Tumblety case without the need to have world firsts in rags or anything like that.
It is now an information highway, stand in its way and you'll get run down.
In your case I'd probably reverse.

[Joe Chetcuti]

If I was a crackpot, I'd be writing out a check and mailing it to Knoxville, Tennessee.

One of the silver linings to the Casebook Message Boards crash is that dozens of Norder's worthless posts were disintegrated from public viewing in a split second. My dog's tail hasn't stopped wagging ever since.

Back to the matter at hand. The Post-Mortem revealed that Hanratty's body showed signs that it had been effected by an opiate. An opiate is a preparation of opium. And opium is made from the juice of the opium poppy. The oily seeds of the opium poppy are edible.

It scary to think what a man like Tumblety could have added to this oily opiate to cause such a terrible reaction. Again we're talking about a former Canadian abortionist who was accused of working with savin oil. (Tumblety's usage of savin oil was brought up in the 1857 Dumas case.) Savin oil has been banned for over 100 years because it is a deadly poison that kills very quickly.

Here is something to think about: An opiate induces sleep. Why would Tumblety give Hanratty an opiate? You don't give an opiate to a man with heart disease. My Dad had heart disease for many years before passing away. He took tons of medication. There was never one opiate amongst the meds. You put a few drops of savin oil in an oily opiate, and you'll put your patient to sleep for a heck of long time.

[A.P. Wolf]

Right, onwards and upwards with a little more on the 'Great American Doctor', Tumilty. The following two reports are from the 'Liverpool Mercury' November 26th 1874 and February 24th 1875.
What amazes me is his bare arsed cheek, for a few days after his appearance in court he is running a series of ads in the same newspaper that featured his court appearances urging folks to buy his 'Passages in the Life of the Great American Doctor' for 3 pence.
What a guy!
At his height in 1874 he was running up to four advertisements a day in the same rag, so he must have been doing well.

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[Joe Chetcuti]

Desperately sick people would respond to Tumblety's phony ads. The quack exploited their vulnerability and he often fleeced them.

In the case of his asthmatic patient, Fenton Scully, Tumblety kicked the sick man down a stairwell. Portmore and Hanratty weren't so lucky. Neither one of them would survive their encounter with Tumblety.

The doctor also drew youthful people to himself who were in difficult situations or who could easily be duped. Young Union Army soldiers longing to return home during the Civil War would hand money to Tumblety in exchange for a phony military discharge paper. The gullible teenage boys who were lured into the doctor's dark world would find themselves sexually assaulted. (Carr & Lyons each met this fate.) Young worried women would pay a high price to the quack in an attempt to receive an illegal and unsafe abortion.

The desperately sick, the young & gullible, the scared, the vulnerable... Tumblety preyed on these types of people all of his life and he usually victimized them after he won their trust. Were the drunken desperate Whitechapel prostitutes really that much different than the types of people who Tumblety had a history of victimizing?

We have read on this thread how the "M.O." was so much different when one looks at how Tumblety did away with Portmore & Hanratty in comparison to how the Whitechapel women were killed. But when you look at the circumstances that these people were in, and you realize what helpless targets they really were, you'll end up seeing a lot more similarities than differences.

[A.P. Wolf]

I don't know whether I agree with your last sentiment, or not, Smoking Joe, but I do like the ad that Tumblety ran in the Liverpool Mercury on the 24th September 1874:

'ANOTHER RAISED FROM THE GRAVE - I frankly express the hope that diseased humanity in every part of our land may avail themselves of the Great American Doctor's remarkable skill, and thus share the noble blessing so kindly and freely bestowed upon all. I was troubled with liver complaint, indigestion, disease of the bowels, general prostration, etc. The doctors said that no power on earth could save me from the grave. The Great American Doctor's Medicine has saved me - A, Green, No. 3, Slaney Street, off Dove street.'

Only Dan could have a bigger ego.

[Joe Chetcuti]

The mockery and callousness this Ripper suspect had for death really stands out. To purposely advertise his phony medical ability right underneath the coroner's report in the Liverpool Mercury was so befitting of him.

"Another Raised From The Grave"

The cold-hearted encounters Tumblety had with the two widows, Mrs. Portmore and Mrs. Hanratty, were awful to read about. The disrespect for all of the death he left behind was such a prevalent feature of this scoundrel.

[A.P. Wolf]

Now, if he had killed those two widows, then I could get along with you a bit better in this regard, Joe, but ol' Tumilty he liked those boys eh?

[R.J.Palmer]

ol' Tumilty he liked those boys eh?

Indeed he did. But this begs the question.

It sounds, AP, like you accept the conventional wisdom that the Ripper murders were motivated by sexual desire. The old Austrian notion that a knife represents the penis, and that in stabbing a woman the murderer was expressing sexual desire? Do I have that right?

You see, I have always held to the rather eccentric notion that stabbing someone was an act of dislike and disapproval. Particularly when there's no evidence of 'sexual connection' at the crime scene, and even in the vast majority of cases where there is. But then, I'm no John Douglas.

[SirRobertAnderson]

Indeed he did. But this begs the question.

It sounds, AP, like you accept the conventional wisdom that the Ripper murders were motivated by sexual desire.

I think one can easily argue that Kelly, the most attractive of the lot, was rendered sexless by the mutilations. So I'd be willing to agree that desire was not a motivating or triggering factor.

[A.P. Wolf]

The only thing you have right, RJP, is that you are far too late to influence material that you should have released years ago.
If I'm wrong then you are really far too late to do anything much at all.
Just leave the serious business to the drunks from now on.

[R.J.Palmer]

Have at it AP --

There’s some truth to what you say: “Video killed the Radio Star.”

Me? I still listen to Bobby Dylan and crank the slow handle of my microfilm reader. Think ‘Tortoise and Hare.’

But you didn’t answer my question.

Are all your caged zebras heterosexual? If so, you're more Krafft-Ebing than you care to admit.

That's a serious question. On Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, you bash our old Austrian friend with the best of them. But when the going gets tough, you hop in bed with the sexologists. Which is it going to be?

My opinion is that these crime have nothing to do with sex; not directly. So the sexual identity of the unknown criminal is irrelevant, whether it be FT, MJD, or JKS.

[R.J.Palmer]

AP - One more spot of fun for your sparring pleasure; here is as good as anywhere. I thought I'd try your method, so I sucked down a quick glass of whiskey (all I had) to see if I could make some sense. Here goes.

You know, AP, the film Psycho is particularly interesting to me, because it is mainly based on Ed Gein, who was a wizened up old man of vast perversions. But Hitchcock made him into a young, handsome 20-something bloke, a dark, brooding characterization, played by Tony Perkins-- in other words, nothing at all like the real McCoy, but a pretty good rendition of MJ Druitt and Tommy Cutbush. Even Heathcliffe from Wuthering Heights. Or Lord Byron on a bad day. Prince Hamlet done-up by Lawrence Oliver, heavy on the Freud. The dark, romantic, brooding youth who just happens to like to stab you to death while you are taking a shower, because he had issues with mom.

This, I think, symbolizes two of the major difficulties in recognizing Jack the Ripper. Problem 1. The possibility always exists that the popular image bears no relationship to the real deal. And by “popular image” I mean the FBI profile just as much as I mean the Top-Hatted bloke. Indeed, the FBI profile serves the same intellectual purpose that the top-hatted cloaked figure did 30 years ago. It’s a hat rack to hang our anxieties on. Doesn't serve any other purpose. Problem 2. The demographics of murder have changed because the real McCoy is influence by the popular image. In the case of “Psycho” disaffected youths are drawn to the evil image portrayed in films and movies; I'm not saying the film "makes" them, it just modifies their behavior. The Columbine shooters imitate "Matrix"-- just seriously f$&cked-up kids adrift in society who begin to imitate the image of the outlaw, or the dark avenging angel. Thus, someone like Richard Ramirez fancies himself the drugstore variety Satanist, and behaves accordingly, while Dahmer is the spitting image of the brooding Tony Perkins, with a gay twist. Just this morning I was studying the rates of violent crime in the UK and there was a sudden spike right after ‘Pscycho’ came out. Crimes with knives, I mean. Not to say the correlation is exact, or strictly cause-and-effect. It’s more like the old Heisenburg uncertainty principle: you can’t observe something without changing it. Is it a particle or a wave? The media and the portray of “serial murders” in popular culture changes the demographic, because the real motivation of mass and multiple murder has some relationship to a disruption in “social identity.” Jack the Ripper probably read Poe and Penny Dreadfuls. This is one reason why I *sort of* disagree with John Omlor and Alex Chisholm when they talk about "narrative." The underlying assumption is that there are 'real' murderers, and then there is the fictional 'narrative,' done-up by either the Maybrick forger or the popular press. I don't really disagree with what they say, but I worry that their comments suggest a simplistic relationship when a deeply complex one actually exists. The relationship between the Ripper and the media is mutual; he sees himself as a 'narrative,' a morality play, and the press portrays him as one at the same time. Two mirrors staring at each other, until after awhile you don't know which is the reflection of which.

In short, I’m more and more of the opinion that you are looking for a zebra, while I’m hunting a chameleon. I don't think the Ripper is likely to have any similarity whatsoever with the popular or 'scientific' image. Or, more correctly stated, I am not opposed to the idea that the Ripper might be vastly different than what the popular or "scientific" profile states. If Ostrog wasn't in France, I'd be all for giving him a twice over.

[A.P. Wolf]

You should drink whisky more often, RJP, you start to make some sort of weird sense then.
But I was actually referring to the fact that the patients that appear to have fallen foul of Tumblety's potions were of the male variety.
So if we accept your premise - and Joe's - that these deaths were of a malicious nature, and that Tumblety intended to murder these patients in an evil intent... then we are left with a homosexual killer who killed men but cured women.
Personally I have always felt that Tumblety was of a bi-sexual nature.

And just to point out that it was not unusual in the Victorian Period for herbal or botanist doctors to cure their patients by apparently killing them with their potions and lotions, but the cases I have studied have rarely resulted in a conviction for anything, as it was not provable that the lotions and potions had actually killed the patient as the majority were also on regular medication supplied by registered doctors, producing a conflict that could not be resolved in that age by prosecution in a court of law.

[Natalie Severn]

I hope its ok to come in here folk---been busy lately and this is my first post in several days.
The man convicted yesterday of the Suffolk murders of five young women,Steve Wright, was a cross dresser, bisexual by the sound of it,lived in the midst of the red light district of Ipswich, where his victims earned their "medication" money and was 49 years old.
Although I agree to some extent with those who say you cant simply juxtapose 2007 murders onto 1888 ones without any consideration of changes in socio economic conditions and cultural factors etc ,I think its likely to be of minor significance compared with the bigger factors that appear to affect personality and psychological development in general,such as the family and particularly child/mother relationships.
Steve Wright is recorded in the press as having spent long periods waiting for his beloved mother to return.She had left her husband and children for another man with whom she started a new family and Wright didnt see her again for 28 years.I am not blaming the mother here either for what she did or for Wright"s subsequent serial killing sprees.I have no knowledge of what drove her to leave her family in England but her life appears to have become unmanageable for some reason within "the family"---which it often does and certainly did in Victorian times for many women.
I have read of several such instances where a child develops a murderous hatred for an abandoning mother,most notably in Jean Genet"s biography by Edmund White and in Genet"s own burningly honest and brilliant writings on it ,"Funeral Rights" and "Our Lady of the Flowers" being two examples.The hatred is quite difficult to understand in Genet"s case since his mother was a 17 year old peasant girl with no financial ability to support her child and who nevertheless managed to keep him for seven months before putting him into an orphanage because of her destitution.But although he never knew her,he never looked for her and his hatred for her lasted his lifetime according to his biographer and he spoke of wanting to spit on her grave and much worse in each of the above books.None of this caused Genet to become a murderer, still less a serial killer but it certainly didnt help in his adjustment to the "society" which he also came to detest for having made him in his own eyes an outcast and branded him a "thief". He was sent to an institution,Mettray in France- a kind of Borstal from the age of six, and ever after spent much of his life in jail for serial "theft" and other anti social activity.

So in the case of the Ripper,I cant help suspecting that his big problem may have been his relationship or non relationship with his abandoning mother.
Finally,I dont see any big, fundamental difference between the attitudes towards women and the misogyny and institutional sexism that lay at the heart of Victorian Society and the attitudes to women and the underlying mysogyny that lies at the heart of today"s society,though its now somewhat "disguised" by the current anti sexist legislation.In my opinion,Steve Wright was only taking such attitudes to the farthest end of the spectrum of sexism-possibly brought on initially by the profound disruption to his early maternal nurturing and reinforced by the sexism and misigyny that still underlies much of our culture.As was quite possibly the case with the Ripper.

Natalie

[How Brown]

Dear Nats:

Right off the bat, you have provided us with TWO examples of a "type" of serial killer that some folks deny exist...or at least, consider anomalies.

One, is the age group. Most consider "49" to be too old. Not so.

The other is the denial of a gay-serial killer-of heterosexuals or hetero women. Once more, a bisexual person has homosexual tendencies and "fits" with either gender preference. I believe off the top of my gorgeous head that Richard Speck would fit that bill as well as probably many others,whom at the moment,since I ain't had any coffee yet, I can't remember.

Thanks for the info,Natalie.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks How. Yes, I find that very interesting too.From what I understand there was no evidence of "connection" either and all the women left in positions with more than a hint of the Ripper"s "street theatre"about them-by which I mean he left several of his corpses naked,in staged" poses" ,in the open air.So another killer who presented a series of visual pageants of the corpses of the women he murdered.
Best
Natalie
PS Wright"s wife was on Sky just now saying she "knew nothing"of his criminal behaviour but understood if he told the court that he had sought out prostitutes due to a lack of sexual contact in his marriage:she said their marriage was not sexual but was "otherwise happy" .

[A.P. Wolf]

Joe
Going back to a previous post of yours where you talk of Tumblety kicking Fenton Scully down the stairs, forgive me if I'm wrong but surely this was the subject of a court investigation and Tumblety was absolutely cleared of this charge by the evidence of two witnesses?
I know it is not easy to accept but we really must accept the decision of the courts at the time, which do indicate that Tumblety did not kick anyone down the stairs.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi AP,
Now here there seems to be some selective judgement.I remember you stating that Tumblety had probably managed to jump jail through back handers to the cops-----why not in this case then?
Natalie
been looking for you on casebook AP----you are missed....

[A.P. Wolf]

I ain't been so well just lately, Natalie, so my combatative nature has been in hibernation for a while. Searching through old records seems to sooth that big black hole that wants to eat me up.
Casebook was becoming just one long battle for me.
I agree with you, to a certain extent, that Tumblety was able to skip gaily before the law, and get away with things, but when we come to write the official record we must accept that he was not guilty of these things when he was found so by the courts of the time.
Even when we sort of know he was guilty.
We can't regress history.

[Natalie Severn]

Sorry to hear you havent felt too good lately----join the rest of us! But one thing to remember Spring-not long now...
And quite right about Tumblety-he was found not guilty in this case-as he was in most!
Take Care
Natalie

[Joe Chetcuti]

Officer Riggs of the 41st Precinct was in agreement with Scully's accusation and the officer didn't have any trouble at all obtaining an arrest warrant against Tumblety. Check out the final paragraph of this article:

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/brooklyn_daily_eagle/640506.html

The officers and detectives of Brooklyn's 41st Precinct hated Tumblety. Two of the detectives in that precinct (Frost & Chambers) compiled much evidence against Tumblety over the years. The two detectives presented this evidence to a judge once and it contributed to Tumblety losing his civil lawsuit against a New York broker.

Now back to the Fenton Scully case. Let's see, Tumblety took Fenton by the arm and peacefully led him out the door. Oh yeah sure, that's what really happened.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/brooklyn_daily_eagle/640510.html

Tumblety was usually able to obtain the services of convenient "witnesses" who would come forth before a judge for the sake of casting doubt upon the accusations levied against the quack. Whether the witnesses voluntarily came forth or whether Tumblety greased some palms, can be figured out after you study this man's history.

[Joe Chetcuti]

The 41st Precinct was eventually re-named the First Precinct of Brooklyn. Tumblety's Fulton Street office was inside this precinct.

[A.P. Wolf]

Natalie, off topic I know, but it appears I will not be able to register on Casebook until my Hotmail account gets reactivated from wherever it has disappeared to - given the new regulations there - unless the moderators just allow me to use my old user name and password, but I am not even able to contact them myself, without an e-mail account.
So it looks like I'm beggared all round really.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi AP,
I am sorry to hear of your difficulties regarding the Casebook.It seems strange to not be able to contact anyone despite not having an email currently.I myself had some difficulty re-registering at first which thankfully Ally sorted out within a day or so.Anyway lets hope you get the email thing sorted out asap---what a pest !


Joe,
I finally got my copy of Ripperologist 87 a few days ago and was able finally read your Tumblety article-very interesting too.
The more I hear though about Tumblety lately the more I am inclined to think he was a man who had got on the wrong side of the British authorities....and had been the focus of a sort of "give the dog a bad name" kind of thing. Being an orange man, the Colonel would have no doubt taken a profound dislike to Tumblety with his alleged pro Irish Republican rhetoric.Its hard to know what to think given such slender information.
But chaps such as Robert Anderson and the Colonel were very committed to the Unionist cause and would have viewed anybody expressing such Irish Nationalist sympathies as you quote Tumblety expressing, as nothing short of evil incarnate murderers.So it would have been very easy indeed for Tumblety in 1888 to have been branded as a JtR suspect by some in the AntiFenian/ anti- Irish Nationalist brigade like The Colonel,-even Littlechild could have been prejudiced towards him due to his own Anti Fenian intelligence work.It could have happened in much the same fashion as I believe Anderson selected Kosminski from the working class Jewish Immigrant population,as a "mad Pole-very likely-flavour of the month"-displacing the cleared Leather Apron ,and alibied Ostrog --and if the truth were known Tumblety is probably far more "unlikely" than he is "likely".
But congratulations for a damn good read Joe!
Cheers
Natalie

[R.J.Palmer]

So if we accept your premise - and Joe's - that these deaths were of a malicious nature, and that Tumblety intended to murder these patients in an evil intent... then we are left with a homosexual killer who killed men but cured women.

Uh, AP, my premise? I don't recall saying that. Are you making an assumption?

I recall the words the late David Radka once offered to another poster. 'You're trying to hit a home run everytime you get to the plate.' In short, you're looking for a dripping knife. That's not what I'm looking for.

As for 'curing women,' in his own warped mind, I think that is precisely what Jack set out to do.

Good one. Two marks.

RP

[Joe Chetcuti]

Hello Natalie,

It's good to know that you received the current Rip issue. Now you know what Lawende looked like! I'm glad you read the Knocking on Pall Mall's Door article. When a simple-minded pedestrian like me knocks on a Westminster door, nobody should expect any progress to be made. So it was surprising that I got as far as I did, especially with the military club.

"If the truth were known..."

I liked that introductory comment of yours in your last post, Nats. I'd say that if the truth were known about Tumblety, then the large dossier on this Ripper suspect wouldn't need to be locked up and the 1888 membership records of the United Service Club wouldn't need to be missing.

I really took a liking to your #32 post on this thread. Howard mentioned that your Steve Wright comments countered the screwy notions about how older men are incapable of becoming serial murderers and how homosexual males are incapable of killing women. I agree with Howard. I don't know why these false concepts are taken seriously. The manner in which people attempt to dismiss Tumblety as a Ripper suspect is peculiar. I noticed this peculiarity even back in the 1990's.

"Nobody knows how tall the Ripper was... oh but Tumblety was too tall."

"Nobody knows how old the Ripper was... oh but Tumblety was too old."

Nobody knows the Ripper's sexual preference... oh but Tumblety was too gay."

Littlechild knew how tall and how old the homosexual quack was. Yeah sure, that really prevented the ex-Chief Inspector from labeling this man a likely Ripper suspect.

If I were to take the stance that Tumblety was not the Ripper, I'd probably work along the same type of reasoning that you just hinted at in your last post, Natalie. Littlechild could have been killed when the Fenians blew up his office. Was there a personal vendetta that drove Littlechild to label a zealous Irishman like Tumblety as a suspect?

The same goes for Hughes-Hallett. I've been absolutely convinced for over three years now that Hughes-Hallett was trying to hunt down Tumblety on Aug 8th. Again, was there a personal vendetta that drove Hughes-Hallett to carry a loaded revolver into George Yard? A vendetta that went beyond sound reasoning for suspecting his fellow clubman of murder.

So this is the approach I'd use if I were to question the validity of Tumblety having been the Ripper. I certainly would not use any of the "too tall" "too old" "too gay" idiocy. Nor would I recite the biggest joke of them all:

"Littlechild didn't realize that the man he labeled as a likely Ripper suspect was actually in police custody during the Kelly murder."

Good to hear from you Nats. It looks like your computer has permitted you to get back in the swing of things!

[Joe Chetcuti]

On another thread, A.P. Wolf mentioned a man named Francis Tumilty who appeared in the Liverpool Mercury. Here is the info we've got.

1871 Census - 52 Jordan Street, Liverpool.

Francis Tumilty, Head, Married, Age 29, Dock Labourer, born Ireland
Ann Tumilty, Wife, Married, Age 26, born Liverpool
Patrick Tumilty, Son, age 3, born Liverpool
Mary Tumilty, Daughter, Age 1, born Liverpool


1851 Census - No 2 House, No 13 Court, 52 Blundell Street, Liverpool

William Tumilty, Head, Married, Age 47, Scavenger, born Ireland
Bridget Tumilty, Wife, Married, Age 47, born Ireland
Patrick Tumilty, Son, Age 16, Dock Labourer, born Ireland
John Tumilty, Son, Age 14, Dock Labourer, born Ireland
Mary Tumilty, Daughter, Age 12, Scholar, born Ireland
Francis Tumilty, Son, Age 9, Scholar, born Ireland
James Tumilty, Son, Age 7, Scholar, born Ireland

The Francis Tumilty mentioned twice in the census info isn't the Ripper suspect. As we read above, we can see that this Liverpool Francis Tumilty was born in 1842.

[Chris G.]

These are great finds, A.P. !!

Hey...maybe he really did kill someone after all,huh?





Yes he did. The question is whether he ever killed anyone using a knife.

Chris