Asleep when JTR came in?

[Melissa McMahan]

You know I have to say I have an idea about the whole Mary Kelly slaying. Since this one witness who saw Mary with a man who put his head down as they walked by him. Most men would have likely done the same thing who was with a known hooker. Whoever this guy was he may not have been Jack the Ripper but Mary's last John. The killer may have watched Mary's room as the witness says he did. With the thick fog in London this would not be a hard task nor one that would be noticed. The killer may have waited for the witness to give up and may have also waited for the John to leave before he went inside to kill Mary. No body else has thought of this that I've ever read anyway. Why? It makes since to me that the killer would be this careful. Since her window was broken all he had to do was stick his arm through and open the door. Doing this and walking inside would only take a few moments. Mary was most likely sleeping when the Jack the Ripper came in but I believe she woke up due to the cuts on her arm we see in the photo and the PM report that states her arm was slightly abducted from the body. This is not a clear view of her other arm. Was it hanging on by a piece of flesh or bone? What does "slightly abducted from the body" mean? It's a very unclear statement in my book. In any case I think she woke up and cried out the "Oh murder" some people heard. If you were asleep and a killer with a knife came in your room. What would you say as you woke up to that stranger with a knife? Likely something simple like "Oh murder" or something like it.

[Melissa McMahan]

Well like I said it was just an idea I had and if Cornwell can write a book... Hey let me take a stab at my own ideas. Sorry about the pun. LOL! Don't get me wrong, it's just an idea after all. I'm not writing a book nor do I plan to do so. I'm still trying to chose a suspect from the many that have JTR characteristics.

Yet I wonder if the man this winess saw with Mary could have been just some John or indeed JTR. Most people think he was JTR but it's not writen in stone that this man was indeed JTR.

I mean the guy she was with could have been Jack the Ripper but then again JTR could have been watching close by. Either one could be ture. The trouble with the witness statement is that these women had all sorts of men with them. Due to the fact that they were hookers so this man who was with Mary could have been just some guy or the killer.

The killer was likely stalking his victims for days maybe even weeks before he killed them. He would have known about the window being broken and no telling what else.

If JTR was watching Mary's room for awhile, he would know more than just going to her room with her acting as just another John. He would know if what she did daily and likely know when she fell asleep. Like I said I just was thinking about it and wanted to share my idea but nobody knows. At least I didn't write a book about this idea and call it "case closed."

As far as the fog goes, it does get foggy in England but not always that's ture. Like it gets cold in Houston but it's hot most of the year. In any case I'm sure JTR had many places for his to hide out and watch his victims before he killed them. Most killers do have their killing areas pretty well memorized so they can flee as fast as they can afterwards. The only killer who didn't really was the Zodiac killer but he still wasn't ever found himself.

[How Brown]

". Most killers do have their killing areas pretty well memorized so they can flee as fast as they can afterwards. The only killer who didn't really was the Zodiac killer but he still wasn't ever found himself."---Melissa

Good points. I am of the opinion that JTR was definitely an organized killer. Knowing the turf would be of paramount importance. The Zodiac probably came within inches of being nabbed after the murder of the cab driver. He also was working from within a far larger parameter than the Ripper. But you're correct in linking both of these killers, from where I sit. Both had similarities in numerous ways.

This alleged cry of " Oh murder !" still doesn't set well with me. I can't see it. I may be wrong.

Melissa has also touched upon what should be an obvious observation to the action by the patron Hutchinson said he saw. Someone so decked out in what Hutchinson said he saw, would probably not be a local....or someone who became alarmed at seeing Hutchinson,when he did not expect to see anyone. Good thinking,Melissa.....

Not to split hairs, but if I was being attacked, I would yell, " Arggggggggggh ! " or "Aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !".
"Oh ,murder", always seemed too dramatic.

[How Brown]

One reason I have been puzzled ( and believe me, I understand your perception of WHY that phrase may have been used with considerations of the world in 1888 ), about that statement is that I don't believe ANY scream was heard.

My suspect would have had relations with Kelly,as a celebration of the 5th kill ( which of course, was what lay ahead for poor Mary ). My suspect would have not allowed Kelly to utter a sound. Dahmer,Nielsen,Gacy, and others killed almost in utter silence in the confines of a home. My suspect knew of the acoustics, the surroundings, the proverbial lay of the land. Why ? Because he was one evil ( read: smart) cookie. He was not on "home turf",but was where he needed to be to 'fulfill" his planned,organized( up to this point),and calculated murders. Why allow anything to ruin his "winning streak" ? Why allow the possibility of someone he considered deathworthy of interfering with his intent? Why allow himself to be cornered ? Hutchinson only saw a "John" going into Miller's Court( in his ,Hutchinson's mind,that is),not "Jack The Ripper". Clients were the standard operating procedure at Kelly's. What was the danger the Ripper had,after all of this has been said ? Only one.....That of a scream from a woman whom he intended to eviscerate. This is why I remain a "hold-out" to the mention of "Oh Murder"........or any other attempt by that poor woman on that night of evil, to get help.

[D1g1TaL Gh0sT]

As far as Zodiac is concerned, if anything, he seemed to have his areas scoped out ahead of time even BETTER, than your " average, run of the mill" killer might have. To the point, where he even plotted them on a map, so the subsequent murder sites formed specific, geometrical angles "i.e. radians". It would make no sense for him whatsoever, to plot his kills in spefic places where their there would be a great probability of him being caught. That would be counter-productive. Especially when you take into consideration, that he easily could have plotted those same kills in remote locations, or desolate parts of town, to form those very same radians elsewhere.

[George]

People don't pay attention to such cries for help. It's human nature and selfishness. People don't want to get involved.

The only cry people pay attention to is "Fire" as this threatens their lives as well.

This is recommended by police.

In Mary Kelly's situation, it would not have made a difference since she was killed immediately.

If she had shouted, "fire" instead of "murder", it wouldn't have saved her life but maybe someone exiting the building may have seen the Ripper or maybe he would have been caught in the act.

George

[How Brown]

George: Good points....solid points.
I admit I was unaware of TWO people hearing the cry of "Oh,murder !". That definitely changes my previous opinion. I had mentioned this before,over at another site, and got only minimal response. You and George and have set me straight. I appreciate it. :D

That brings up the matter of why the Ripper allowed his victim to utter a sound...Hmm...

[Melissa McMahan]

You know my biggest problem with what any witness saw if two points really.

* First that hookers seen with men is too common because it's part of the trade. Ahem!

* Next whoever the killer or Jack the Ripper was, this man was not stupid. If he had been the man the witness saw with Mary Kelly. I believe he would not have killed her that night. After all there is this witness who saw him. It just does not add up to me. That's why I think this man with Mary was just a John and not Jack the Ripper. There are many signs pointing to the Ripper stalking these women. It would give him time to study their habits. Do you know what I mean? I really believe it would also explain the changing height as so on of the men seen with all the victims. You have to reason that being a hooker is a rough trade and men come and go with these women. To pin down one man would be indeed very hard, plus factor in the killer was too smart to ever be caught. I believe the only tiem the killer was seen was the double event. He didn't get to finish his work on the first victim that night. (Stride) When he was interupted and had to flee. So he went out and found another one to work on.

[Melissa McMahan]

Jack the Ripper whoever he was, this man was not a fool. He would not have taken the risk of other people seeing him with the victims just before killing them. Thus the "witnesses" who saw men with the victims, they saw the last John's. Does it not make more since that JTR was watching the last act of these women's trade close by? All he would have to do is wait for the John to leave and have at the hooker with his knife afterwards. There is yet another reason for me to believe he stalked them first and that would be the police would be looking for the John's last seen with these hookers. That's why the witnesses all saw all these descriptions and not just one. They saw a bunch of men who paid for these hookers. What George Hutchinson said he saw was a man who hid his face... So what? The man was likely married and didn't want to be seen with a known hooker. Watch "COPS" sometimes and you'll notice the same behavior from any John. I still believe the only person whoever REALLY saw the REAL killer was the man who rode upon Elizabeth Stride getting her throat cut by JTR. Louis Diemschutz himself stated that he believed the Ripper was still in the yard when he had entered, due to the warm temperature of the body and the continuingly odd behavior of his pony. I also believe that JTR didn't quite do everthing he wanted to do to Mary Kelly but he had to leave before the morning workers started about their day.

[How Brown]

Melissa...I like the common sense approach you used here. A lot of times,people tend to "overthink" things,because they want to be super-objective. I know if I was "stepping out" on a spouse,the last thing I would want is to be recognized. That could open up a lot of bad scenarios........

[Melissa McMahan]

Thank you. I was wanting someone to think about this as I have. I cannot tell you the arguements I get from saying this.

So many people have writen a lot of things about JTR as we all know. Some of it good but most of it bad. Like Cornwell's POV... Ahem! Beating a dead horse until it's nothing but mush. UGH! I like to think for myself on any subject and comeup with ideas nobody seems to have thought of before. Where as most people read JTR books or see a JTR movie and take it as writen in stone. I would like to point out the movie JFK which is NOT a true story about JFK's assassination. I don't care who you think killed JFK, this movie has as much fiction in it as Xena Warrior Princess does to real Greek myths. Or "FROM HELL" which might as well be from Mars. LOL!

[Cleopatra]

Here's my two cents, since Mary Kelly's room was so tiny (Twelve or fifteen feet) and there was a table beside the bed that when the door opened it hit that table. Wouldn't that wake her up?

[Melissa McMahan]

That is a good point but if JTR knew that he could have opened the door slowly avoiding the sound all together. It could have been the case but of course it's just an idea. Nobody knows for sure how JTR got into Mary's room.

However I keep a plastic bag between my bedroom door and my bed, if someone steps on it I would hear it. However if their foot missed it I would not wake up. Low-Tec alarm system I know but a plastic bag is loud when someone walks on it. It's sort of the saem thing, maybe Mary used the door hitting the table the same way. (???) Could be... In any case I like to play with the ideas and see what makes since and what doesn't. JTR could have also just crawled inside the broken window and closed it back after making Mary helpless.

[sorcia_us]

Yay! I am back!!!
And here is my 2 pence...

First, I would like to say that the cry of "oh Murder" that night was never definitely established as having come from Kelly's room.
As the witness, Mrs. Prater, stated, such cries were common in the area. So common that she went back to sleep!
Also,the rooms were just slapped together here, and Mrs. Prater also testified that she could easily hear what went on in Kelly's room, even her moving around. So it is difficult to believe that she heard anything like a woman fighting for her life and forgot about that but remembered to mention the "Oh Murder" (which she may have been mistaken about - she was half asleep)
I agree with you Howard - from what I have read, the most common thing for victims of violence to scream when attacked is, "NO!!" (a la Annie Chapman!)

[How Brown]

Sorcia........I'll give George the benefit of the doubt that he may be right. Who knows? But to our Philly mindset,yelling "Oh Murder" seems a little farfetched.

[sorcia_us]

As to the crying out, as I said - it was just my interpretation or opinion of the events.
Although in Philly, if I heard someone yelling, "OH, Murder" I would probably investigate out of sheer curiousity - and thinking it was s ome kind of new game.

[How Brown]

Sorcia.......Hearing "Oh Murder ! " in Philly, more likely than not, means you overheard someone reacting to a bad referee's decision in a Flyers game. :D

[sorcia_us]

I wish I could say my reactions to bad ref calls during Flyers games were as PG-rated as, "Oh, Murder!".

[Melissa McMahan]

I have three cats. I have to have them to kill the mice that come in the yard. I've found so many mouse bodies looking like Jack the Ripper victims I lost count. If I could find a dog that could get along with my cats that would work but I have to have the cats. I hate mice! The guy next door has two big dogs in his back yard who bark if even a racoon comes in my back yard but I usually sleep through their barking unless it just goes on and on. However trust me if anyone ever comes in my house I have some nice little traps for them. :D Plus I've been known to kick and punch people who touch me while I am asleep. I once kicked my sister so bad in the gut while asleep, my mom spanked me for it. :eek: However as an adult not much has changed other than I'm a lot stronger now. In any event if someone comes in my house, they may not come out in one piece.

If Mary Kelly had been skilled in protecting herself then JTR would have been caught right then. Alas in the 1800's women were rather weak and unable to do much when a man hurt them. Those stupid long dresses didn't help either, I'm glad I didn't live back then. I live in Houston and I cannot even stand anything more than shorts in the summer time. There is an old Texas saying, "Texans don't go to hell because it's too cold there." :cool:

[Melissa McMahan]

Nope, I sure didn't. Live down by 1960 beween Westfield, Humble and Bush HIA Airport.

[Melissa McMahan]

I'm so sorry I have a lot on my mind right now. If it makes you feel better I lost my keys today and have no clue where they are. My creative said of my brain is working overtime and the other side is forgetting small stuff like this. :eek:

Hey as long as I don't go outside without my shirt on I should be okay... I hope so anyway. I need to stop thinking so much on my writing. (SIGHS)

[How Brown]

"Hey as long as I don't go outside without my shirt on I should be okay...Melissa.

You sure will okay in my book,should you walk thataway down my street !

Thanks for the visual,Melissa ;)