Accidental Collisions of Reality

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho

How Brown asked for an elaboration of a point so here it is.

Jack T. Ripper did not seek out his victims. He was not seeking to kill whores. He was not preying on Whitechapel. He had no motive. He had no partiular plan.

The deaths of the C5 resulted in an unlucky intrusion by them into his particular reality at random times.

Jack is walking along minding his business, occupying himself with whatever craziness is going on in his head. It may not even be violent. Just obsessive madness for whatever reason.

Each whore, moving in their own cirlce, intrude on his. Nichols and Chapman looking for cash as they stated. Kelly interacting with him in the same manner as GH. Eddowes careening semi-drunkly into him in Mitre Square. Perhaps Stride just bumped into him or was touting for trade.

Each one led him to a spot they chose and the intrusion of them into a state of mind that may not have been homicidal produced some set of circumstances that made him kill them.

In the same way any of us can be in a bar thinking about asking the boss for a raise, not on the pull, and some women touches your elbow and it just progresses from there with no concious decision ever made that you are going home with this woman. YOu didnt mean to pull her, you werent looking for company and if the two of you hadnt collided by chance ....nothing would have happened.

And I am certain that if Jack T was to record in his head what happened, killing those women probablu occupies less of his attention than the dog turd he stepped in on his way home.

AP's Brownian motion concept is not far removed from this I would imagin.

The entire notion (and the insane gymnastics and contorted logic) that he was a "serial killer" and must, somehow (if we only work hard enough) "fit" in with what we "Know" serial killers is all TV crap from people who are easily impressed by such stuff. But my opinions on that are well known.

JtR was a lethal atom, bouncing throughj space until he collided with a ceratin type of other atom, producing a reaction that resulted in one being altered completely and the other continuiing on its way.

That aol the other atoms were down beat whores.....its only because they were the type of people most likely to intrude into his space. Other people didnt. BUt if they had.....they might have gottten the same. And we wouldnt be calling them ripper victims I suppose.

p

[How Brown]

Lars:

Indeed, this idea or conceptualization of the Ripper being a "pinball" of sorts has been touched upon by The Wolf.

Thanks for elaborating your view on the possible absence of motive or reason.

[Robert Linford]

Yes, it's AP's pinball theory, Lars.

I don't have any major problems with it. The only thing is, we can't have Jack as totally out of his tree - for instance, he accompanied Chapman through the passage and waited till he got to the yard to kill her. And he seems to have taken steps to get away safely after each murder, rather than hang around, knife in hand, as if there were nothing wrong. But I think I prefer this "sudden trigger" idea to a calculating psychopath.

Robert

[Gumshoe]

Very interesting commentary by Mr. Poster.

But, if this is so, then wouldn't 17. Imp of the Perverse in this same forum better describe the situation? I would agree that there may never have been a discernable motive, but really, there had to have been at least a reason of some kind for Jack to do what he did. And instinctively reacting to intrusion into one's space would seem to be a reason to me.

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho How

It has been brought up by AP before indeed and I agree with him to a large extent.

What always intersts me about many accounts of how people felt when they had killed someone is that they felt nothing or had no strong emotions at all. It was just something that happened, a sequence of circumstances that resulted in the death of one. And the other didnt think much about it at all.

As opposed to the touted, mythologised, commercialised nonsense we are expected to beleive is actually true...with complex, highly intelligent people who can only be teased out in their crimes by semi-mystical experts.

The truth isnt very marketable.

"Got up, had cornflakes, killed the electricity meter reader. The milk was warm. I have to fix the fridge. What do you think of my harir cut?"

Of course one cannot say it in public that one doesnt beleive in that serial killing/profiling/MO/signature nonsense.

p

[A.P. Wolf]

Yes, Mr P
there was that young killer a few years before 1888 who killed and mutilated a young girl.
His diary entry for the day read:
'Killed a girl today. It was hot and warm.'
He was referring to the weather.

[A.P. Wolf]

As you know Robert, I don't believe Chapman's killer went with her through the passage of the house, but rather he hopped over the fence afterwards and came face to face with her tidying herself up.
The passage through the house would have been one of his many rat runs enabling him to move from one major street system to another in seconds.
Remember what Thomas did when under pressure after his escape?
In through the back door and out through the front door, and nobody the wiser.
That front door would have meant everything to him, and if it meant knocking down four men guarding that door to his exit, he would have done it, regardless of dint and effort.
To 'lay a woman down' on his way would have been quite normal... if she had been in his way.
Just putting them to bed.

[Robert Linford]

AP, yes, I remember your saying that. It would also remove the objection that Mrs Long's man doesn't sound much like Thomas.

Robert

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Robert, and I agree with you, that we do not look at a killer who was totally out of his 'tree'... at all times.
I think of Richard Chase here, when he had just murdered a woman and her young child, and was actually carrying some of the body parts in a bag into his apartment, and then a young woman who knew him from school stopped him to ask him how he was.
'Give me a cigarette,' he replied.
She did, and they had a lengthy conversation about their school days and how Richard was getting on.
'See you later,' said Richard and went into his apartment to liquidise the body parts.

[Dougie]

Puts me in mind of what smith said when asked what he thought of mr clutter (in cold blood)...something after the fashion of "I thought he was a very nice gentleman,right up to the moment i cut his throat".........pent up rage within the soul, just needing someone to turn the switch. gary gilmore had the same mentality..the difference is they didnt seem to be concerned whether they were caught or not....in my opinion the ripper did care,i dont believe he was impulsive,on the contrary he/she to me would seem to be cold,cool and calculating. just my opinion.
regards

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho Gumshoe

there had to have been at least a reason of some kind for Jack to do what he did. And instinctively reacting to intrusion into one's space would seem to be a reason to me.



Thats easily demonstrated to be not the cae. Every day, everyone, does things with no reason that arise solely because of unconsidered, unregistered responses to series of circumstances. YOu dont notice them because you are thinking of something else maybe, but they happen. A car approaches you, you are on the phone, you avoid the car, you dont think about it. Or you walk along in a bad mood and a woman bumps into you and you say "Hey watch where yer going fatso".

You didn't decide you would say that but you did. She and you happenstanced to interact and through no conscious decision the circumstance brought about an action from you.

There was no motive and no reason to your response. That jacks was more extreme is neither here nor there. She mightn't even have annoyed him. he may not even have registered having done her in.

Hi ho RobertL

Hes not out of his tree. No more so than you when you do something in response to something without knowing fully why you did it. That his response dial is mis-calibrated is not indicative of his being out of his tree. It just means that he's a bit skewed.

AS to tolerating walking up the alley with Chapman for example. Perhaps I tolerate someone standing 1 metre from me on the bus. Perhaps 50 cm. But if they bump up against me perhaps I say or do something that took no conscious thought and is not a reflex but is just something that arises. Maybe Jack was doing OK and Chapman wasn't triggering any alarm buttons until she stuck her hand down his pants.

As to hanging round or trying to get away. I do not think he was necessarily trying to get away....he was trying to get back to the trajectory he had before she bumped into him. He might only remember her in relation to the fact that she interrupted his path as opposed to his having killed her.

That he killed the way he did is no biggie either. When you walk into a door or a car splashes you, your response may be, without you even thinking about, a string of random curses made up of all or a few of the curses you know. Or a string of facial twitches, bodily motions and various actions which correspond to the set, or a subset, of the responses you tend to make. And so with our man. For some reason his response circuit is made of a number of actions from which he unconsciously draws upon. ranging from a cut throat to a full scale dissection.

In light of all this, I feel women like Tabram weren't victims unless the top of that stairs was where she brought tricks. I just do not see how her course intersected with his and ended up there. Unless she bumped into him on the stairs. But then he must have lived there or something. And I doubt he did.

But Frances Coles could be his. Or any one outside of the east end. As I don't think he was necessarily local either. Just a chap who happened to be in Whitechapel now and again around the end of 1888. Working there maybe, commuting in and out, possibly just traversing occasionally.

As to the concept of "Pinball". Whilst I do not consider AP's notion to be so crazy...I don't like the word Pinball as it implies his course proceeded resolutely on that produced by the interaction. That it was altered and continued on its new direction.

I think a lot of JtRs actions were brought about by him trying to regain whatever equilibrium he had before he was accosted. I doubt he was satisfied at all with his new direction once the whores came along. And Im not speaking of vectors.

p

[Robert Linford]

Hi Lars

Do you accept Stride as a victim? AP doesn't, but I'm 60-40 in favour of Stride - which gives me a problem.

The problem is that if I go with the happenstance theory - which, as I say, I like - then I have to believe that the chances are roughly 60-40 that Jack was "impinged upon" by women twice in the space of an hour - and impinged upon so badly that he killed them. That seems rather odd.

If I jettisoned Stride, the problem would disappear, but I do think she is more likely to have been a victim than not.

Robert

[Sam Flynn]

If he were "impinged upon" at all, then I feel it's unlikely that the "impinging" happened where the bodies were found.

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho Robert

As to Stride: Possibly Stride impinged upon him and she got the results of it.

What happened later may have been influenced by his having pinged into Stride.

Perhaps if he hadn't met Stride, and he hadn't been interacted with, he would never have killed Eddowes.

Possibly Eddowes came a cropper because he was already perturbed after Stride and whatever the trigger was the caused him to go off had already been half cocked by the time he met Eddowes.

I could well imagine that our man Jack was careening wildly after Stride and I imagine his whole night took a serious turn for the worse after Eddowes. If he hadnt have met Stride previously, maybe Eddowes might never have ended up dead.

Saying that..........maybe someone else killed Stride and Eddowes just made the mistake of deciding Jack was a possible customer.

The chance of being accosted by two prostitutes in the back streets of London on one night would probably be reasonably realistic.

The chance of two whores independantly triggering what ever it was that set our man off is probably small.

The chance of a second one triggering Jack after him having already been set off once is probably greater. Given that the requirements of setting off an already primed Jack may be less than setting off a regular Jack.

Take an example.

You walk down the street and bump into someone. For no reason at all, you go "Watch it you silly pr!ck!".

Then, that having happened, you bump into someone else in a manner which was less than the first in intensity, and because you are already riled by the first, your reaction to the second, again with no reason, is a little bit quicker to come and possibly more intense.

The chances of an intense reaction are greater for the second person due to you having been primed by the first. Had you not reacted to the first, the second person might just have got the type of answer the first person did.

If you see where Im going with this.

Eddowes got done because Jack's fuse was laready lit.

Meeting two whores in one night is not improbable. The probability of the second one getting killed has been increased by the interaction with the first.
Not lessened. They are not independent events.

the likelihood of the second getting killed is increased by his being pissed off by the first. Poor jacks night was getting more problematic by the hour. I bet if a third whore had crossed his path she would have ended up dead as well, and a fourth.

Or he didnt kill Stride.

p

[Mr. Poster]

hi ho SamF

Its not the impinging that most likely triggered the motiveless killing.

I imagine he could have walked to Romford with a prostitute and so long as he didnt get the smell, or the look, or imagined she said something, or the arch of her neck or whatever little thing it was that set him off.....she would probably be fine.

So I agree. Whatever set him off most likely may have taken a few minutes possibly or whatever. Or perhaps didnt. Maybe it did with Chapman. Maybe it didnt with Stride.

Maybe it was the word "cock" that was enough. Perhaps Stride said "'Ello old cock!" and he exploded. maybe Chapman didnt use the word until she said "Alright, lets be having yer cock" in the yard and then got what was coming.

p

[Robert Linford]

Hi Lars

Yes, I see what you mean. The thing is, assuming that Jack killed Stride, was the cut throat enough for him, or was he prevented from making the mutilations by Diemschutz? If the latter, then it's more as if jack went off looking for someone to impinge upon him - or, in your example, the first man you bump into runs off before you can punch him, so you walk off hoping that someone else will bump into you.

Robert

[How Brown]

Lars:

I think what Tim Mosley meant when he said " there had to be a reason" for the Ripper's behavior...he didn't necessarily mean that "the reason" or basis for the Ripper's murderous impulses necessarily had to be felt just prior to the actual murder of the women specifically...but that it may have been present without him being aware of it, much in the way you percieve the Ripper's "reasons" to be, generally....
------------------------------

Of course one cannot say it in public that one doesnt beleive in that serial killing/profiling/MO/signature nonsense.--Lars

Yes,they can,Lars.:sad:...
------------------------

One issue that I'd like to bring up so that we could discuss it here.... is if as "our" Jack as he is being portrayed here by Lars,and his psychosis, were in full flight in the latter part of 1888, why do you think he went to the "ends of the East End", not necessarily looking for a victim or someone to act out on...but by virtue of the distances apart from each other,they are in a way, the "ends' of the East End ?

Do you feel this is in line with what The Wolf mentioned about "not being out of his tree all the time" ?....and that he may have been marginally conscious of where he had been and killed previously?

This is a great thread,Lars. No kidding. Thanks again for creating it.

[Mr. Poster]

hi ho RobertL

I dont know. Perhaps the extent of mutilation was related to the physical environment.

Not because of how much time he had or privacy but some other causal effect in his head.

Therefore, a small room, a back yard, an enclosed square perhaps amplified his response in some way.

In the same way that if someone bumps into you on a wide street they might elicit a different, but equally unconscious response, from you than the same bump would elicit in a very narrow corridor.

Stride was virtually on an open street, much more exposed than the others. Perhaps in such circumstances the combination of processes in Jacks head only resulted in a cut throat. In the dark room of Kellys, perhaps the same trigger being fired got a completely different response.

Coles was also on an open street and warranted much less than perhaps Eddowes.

Perhaps surroundings exacerbated Jacks unconcious response.

It still is motiveless.

Interestingly enough, if we take a lunatic like Kosminski. He is exactly the sort of chap I could see committing unmotivated (in serial killing terms) murders.

Just something setting him off.

But for some reason (TV actually) people feel that there must have been a motive, some driving force, some hunting of victims, some deliberacy.

Most likely there wasnt and it was just dumb luck that some people who interacted with our man ended up dead in the street.

And I'll go so far as to hypothesise that if someone had stumbled upon our man up to his elbows in Eddowes....they would have gotten one of two reactions:

1. A Jack who says something completely odd. He stands up from the corpse and says something like "Fine weather we're having".

2. He jumps on the intruder and guts them as well.

p


p

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho How

One issue that I'd like to bring up so that we could discuss it here.... is if as "our" Jack as he is being portrayed here by Lars,and his psychosis, were in full flight in the latter part of 1888, why do you think he went to the "ends of the East End", not necessarily looking for a victim or someone to act out on...but by virtue of the distances apart from each other,they are in a way, the "ends' of the East End ?

Perhaps he was out stomping trying to get rid of the flock of bats that periodically lived in his left ear?

Or some other crazy manifestation in his head occassionally drove him into the streets?

Maybe he lived in Mayfair and was driven to the darker side of town because thats where the imps told him they had left his liver?

Or he couldn't stand the light or something.

Im not being flippant...........there are a million madnesses that could force him into the East End or perhaps he was there very infrequently and it just happened that on the five times he was there he happened to be accosted and set off.

p

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho

And I'll add this.

If one eats the majic mushrooms typically found in western europe. Not the spotty ones...the liberty cap psycilocybin ones. The effect these things have on seratonin / dopamine is supposed to simulate quite well what schizophrenics feel.

Take a few and head out on the town. And then its quite easy to imagine how our man could have walking the streets and suddenly and for no apparent reason...misinterpreted normal interactions with, for example, whores and ended up going full blown batshit on them. And 30 seconds later couldnt remember it as his addled attention span became fixated on something else completely different.

p

[How Brown]

Lars:

I know the comments weren't flippant...they might be understatements !

Personally...unless you are putting a book together and don't want to reveal too much here...do you think he was an East Ender or someone from the fringes or further away from the East End?

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho How

I have no book.

That lunatics are not higher up the list as suspects is only because they are less "interesting" to discuss and its harder for authors to sell books.

Why have a standard issue madman when one can have some psychosexual-TV-inspired-serial-killer replete with MO's and signatures and profiling?

Thats why AP's trawling of the press and dredging up assorted madmen is much more likely to find, but probably not prove, our killer.

And I think Chapman was mad enough to get up to such things....by the way.

p

[How Brown]

If one eats the majic mushrooms typically found in western europe. Not the spotty ones...the liberty cap psycilocybin ones. The effect these things have on seratonin / dopamine is supposed to simulate quite well what schizophrenics feel.

Lars...buddy.....my main man....umm...are there any of these babies around your neck of the woods ? Lemme know. I think it ought to be mandatory for everyone to trip on psycilocybin or mescaline once. All I "saw" on those wonders of nature were really nice visions. When I become Governor of Pennsylvania, it will be.:sad:

Take a few and head out on the town. And then its quite easy to imagine how our man could have walking the streets and suddenly and for no apparent reason...misinterpreted normal interactions with, for example, whores and ended up going full blown batshit on them. And 30 seconds later couldnt remember it as his addled attention span became fixated on something else completely different.

Its funny how psychedelics affect different people,isn't it?

[How Brown]

Thats why AP's trawling of the press and dredging up assorted madmen is much more likely to find, but probably not prove, our killer.

A.P.'s trawls are gems and are something I always look forward to.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Howard,

I don't believe Jack actually did cover the ends of the East End, at least not in terms of the actual "ripping" murders. Whilst he had no room to manoeuvre on the West side (he went as further West as the East End allows), the East End extended much further along almost any other point of the compass I can think of.

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho How

Im a bit far north at the minute. They are very common in the west of Ireland which is where I came across them. Im sure they grow in the states too but maybe in the damper parts.

They grow from late August to early October on pasture. The reason Ireland has loads is that they have more sheep farming. Sheep cut grass with their teeth thereby leaving the subsurface mycelial mat intact from season to season ensuring continuance of the crop.

Cattle pull up grass disturbing the mat and not letting the colony establish.

They look like womens breasts, are maybe three inches long when full grown with a thin stalk and unexposed gills. They have a well defined nipple and are creamy white. They do not turn to sludge when rained upon.

Im not a great fan of pyschedelic anythings but I think these mushrooms, in moderation are quite OK and a nice way to appreciate nature whilst removing the jaded filters. But as with beer and anything else, I imagine one would want to be of even temperament and sound mind.

I doubt they cause problems when taken in moderation but as with anything,,,they may bring latent problems to the fore in some people. So enjoy responsibly folks!

p

[How Brown]

Im not a great fan of pyschedelic anythings but I think these mushrooms, in moderation are quite OK and a nice way to appreciate nature whilst removing the jaded filters. But as with beer and anything else, I imagine one would want to be of even temperament and sound mind.

Oh..okay,lets forget it then. The last line knocks me out of the ballpark...:rolleyes:...or I can eat more veal from Ireland.
____________________________

Lars...what do you think he did with the organs he removed?

Why do you think he took them ?

Do you feel he was oblivious to the risks being taken?

Do you agree with The Wolf about the Chapman scenario ( Fencehopping)?

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho How

I reckon he got the stomach open and the glistening, steaming mass held some kind of short term transitory tactile/visual/olfactory fascination for him....soft and warm and the mucus and blood drenched surfaces of different shapes and hues and textures all reflecting the little scintallee of light and then he pushed his hands into it and got lost in the magic of his moment and perhaps dragged out a kidney and watched as it poured light into his soul and in 15 seconds he transcended to wherever the the kidney brought him to and then 20 seconds later he was away from the body and looked in his hand and went "what the feck is that? Eeeewwwww........!" and just chucked it away and went back to thinking about something else as he stormed along on his trip through the East End before he careened into something else that occupied his well-off-kilter attention.

Thats what happened I reckon.

Cannot say I have heard about AP's Chapman fence hopping thingy...

p

[How Brown]

Lars:

Sorry for not being more specific.

I meant the Hanbury Street Chapman and A.P.'s theory of his Ripper possibly jumping or scaling the fence to arrive at where Annie was and not that she was lead or directed into the backyard.

Sammy:

What I meant was that the locations are somewhat spaced apart and not centralized.

[Sam Flynn]

Cannot say I have heard about AP's Chapman fence hopping thingy...
You'll find it referenced in "101 Ways to Fracture Your Spine", by Rickety Paling. A&E Press, 2003 (plaster jacket).

[Sam Flynn]

What I meant was that the locations are somewhat spaced apart and not centralized.Hi How,

Well, I guess they are spaced apart, if one takes a Spitalfields-centric view. In the context of the East End as a whole, the "Ripping Fields" occupy a comparatively small area.

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho How/SamF

1. why would she be in the yard on her own? If she was looking for shelter was there not a shed/loo in the yard?

2. Why hop the fence? Why not just go round the gate?

3. I agree with SamF. That fence was hardly fence hopping material.

4. How did he know whe was in the yard? If he knew she was there, why not just go in by the gate?

I reckon if he hopped the fence...something would have been ripped and it wouldnt have been Chapman.

I just do not understand why he would hop the fence as opposed to the simpler (and cutting off her escape route) and much less risky...going through the gate method.

Maybe I have missed something.

p

[Dougie]

If jacks murderous rages were set off by a certain look ,movement or chance remark, would nt we expect the east end to have been littered with bodies? like the shop assistant for instance who fullfilled the necessary requirements to set him off,or the postman,or the milkmaid and probabley each and every female of the lower classes every time he ventured outside? or did jack only come out on weekends every month or whatever?perhaps the rest of the time he stayed indoors reading his by now,well thumbed copy of"how to become a vivisectionist in 10 easy lessons)?

[How Brown]

Understood, Sam. I think you know how I meant what I intended to say...about there being a gap between the first 4 MacNaghten Five victims. I just didn't say it.:rolleyes:

Lars...

Maybe The Wolf will come by and elaborate on this theme of the fence...he's a better spokesman for that theory.

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho Dougie....

Why would you expect the place to be littered in bodies?

Perhaps he was a complete loner who didnt interact with many people. Perhaps his only interaction was when prostitutes accosted him (seeing as only prostitutes were likely to approach people they didnt know out of the blue).

Perhaps only a subset of those prostitutes who interacted with him said/did/smelt whatever it was that set him off. Perhaps what was required to set him off was related to skanky prostitutes and not milk maids. But that doesn not mean he had a motive or an underlying cause. Maybe it was the sight of skin that short circuited some part of his head. And when he saw two round buttocks of creamy white skin it blew the fuse. Unless every female in the east end went round flashing their arses......

Madmen do not think like the rest of us.

Maybe he wasnt crazy all the time and had episodic bouts of complete raving looniness.

I dont see the need for a torrent of bodies at all.

p

[Dougie]

mr poster,
Well im only assuming that the "set of circumstances" would be "everyday" things ....a curl of the lip,acertain phrase ,or whatever,and if as i think is being suggested here that once those series of "actions" had been set in motion, there was no stopping him.If so one might imagine that the ripper might have been faced with that trigger at any time ,in any situation surely? and not only in the early morning hours in relatively deserted areas .Now of course if the trigger was a "creamy white bare round arse" then yes that might pose a problem..... then heaven help the drunken tart in a pub at closing time who decides to "moon " the customers....but i take your point,its just that I think ,although no doubrt Jack was "driven",I feel he was in control of his urges as opposed to being out of control when those urges struck.He was going to fulfill whatever urges he had,but he was also going to use discretion in such a way to maximise his chance of escape .
I think the choice is between an out of control,way out whacko,devil may care nutcase as opposed to a cool ,calculating nutcase.....now to me the fact that he got away with it for so long might suggest the latter was the case....of course maybe the truth is that he was just lucky....either might be true.
regards

[Sam Flynn]

seeing as only prostitutes were likely to approach people they didnt know out of the blue...beggars, too, don't forget. The initial contact need not have involved sexual overtures, and it's not inconceivable that the killer couldn't have conned some of his victims with a promise of shelter, food, drink and/or money. "You will be alright, for what I have told you..." springs to mind ;)

[A.P. Wolf]

What has always struck me is the fact that Thomas Cutbush indulged his habit of 'rambling' the streets late at night every night; and I still believe his type of insanity is exactly what we seek as a template for the Whitechapel Murderer.
Now if the killer is out every night, prowling the streets, it seems obvious to me that his intention is not to attack and murder women, but he is instead engaged in some other activity which remains unknown to us; and that during the course of that activity he very occasionally and accidently comes into close and personal contact with a woman, the result of which is her murder.
As I've said many a time, I have always seen something deconstructive about the crimes, rather than 'destructive' I mean of course, as if the actual murder and then subsequent mutilations are disconnected events, and not necessarily influenced by each other.
The killing the result of an invasion of personal territory, the mutilations the tinkerings of a young and demented man with an obsession for illustrated medical textbooks.
'So that's what it looks like! Well, I'm damned. I must take this home and compare it to the illustration in Blacks.'

As regards the fence hopping etc, it should be pointed out that Thomas would not use a gate or a door if he could help it, and he even entered and left his own home by windows and scaling walls. It seems from the available evidence that Thomas would only use a door in an extreme emergency, as in when he escaped from the infirmary and used the back and front door of the same house to make good his escape.

I like the term 'pinball' as it implies pure happenstance as the course of the ball can never be predicted, measured or forspoken.

[Dougie]

...beggars, too, don't forget. The initial contact need not have involved sexual overtures, and it's not inconceivable that the killer couldn't have conned some of his victims with a promise of shelter, food, drink and/or money. "You will be alright, for what I have told you..." springs to mind ;)
Sam,
I thought you were one of the card-carrying,confirmed,fully paid up members of the "george hutchinson was a bulls h i tt e r" brigade?:israel:;) ..maybe i was wrong?
regards

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I thought you were one of the card-carrying,confirmed,fully paid up members of the "george hutchinson was a bulls h i tt e r" brigade?Well, let's just say that I used to be a card-carrying member of a certain political party, too, but not anymore ;) That's not to say I don't believe there weren't at least some elements of bovine excrement in Hutchinson's statement, but I don't see the need to dismiss the whole thing.

[A.P. Wolf]

In 1888 Chief Inspector Swanson - after receiving a tip-off from a police informer - conducted a series of experiments to see if it was possible to move over large areas of Whitechapel at night without using the main streets, as the old lag claimed.
I quote:
'In one test made the police traversed a burrow of dirt and squalor a distance of over a mile in this way. Starting from Aldgate at the back of some slum buildings that led into another block of slumland tenements and hovels, two officers came far out in Stepney by such routes, two more into Whitechapel, and the other couple into Spitalfields. All this was done by passing from one building to another, over broken brick walls, fences, as well as through doorless buildings, alleys, passages and courtyards - and all possible without touching one minor or major street of the entire locality.'

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho Dougie

now to me the fact that he got away with it for so long might suggest the latter was the case

Dont forget.....the hardest crime to solve is the one where you open the front door and some totally random stranger buries a hammer in your head. Lack of motive, commections, reasons......all complicate the catching.

Of course the fact that the police seemed to spend an inordinate maount of time trwaling asylums and the like and not looking for cryptic clues and coded references to the novels of Dickens suggest to me they were fully aware that the man they were looking for was going to be a nutter......

That seems to slip by most of the Hannibal Lecter brigade...(not including yourself in that bunch)..who somehow infer that because they werent looking for skin wearing super criminals is because they were somehow ignorant of their existence.

Hi ho AP

Your wall scaling Cutsbush is interesting.....but seeing as he didnt like doors and would rather use a fence scaling than a gate...one wonders how he managed with Kelly. It must have been a tight fit through the broken window.


p

[Sam Flynn]

...one wonders how he managed with Kelly. It must have been a tight fit through the broken window.
...not for someone with a history of putty crimes.

[A.P. Wolf]

Nice one, Sam, gave me a good laugh that did.
Makes your moniker as a 'Welsh Humorist' a little more plausible.

[A.P. Wolf]

I thought this 'accidental collision of reality' from 1882 to perfectly sum up the happenstance of this whole business.
A young and respectable lady, Elizabeth Mitchell, having seen a friend off on the local train, misses her omnibus connection, and asks a loafer, Thomas Hooker, outside the local pub the time of the next bus. Getting only a grunt in reply, she wanders back to the omnibus stop, he follows her and stabs her four times in the back, only stopping when a passing Cabman scares the living daylights out of him by saying 'If you want to pick on someone, pick on me'.
Hooker runs away.
Six months.
Should have got life.