Mysteries of the Unexplained

[Mike Covell]

Hi Folks,
As you may know I am the team Historian for Yorkshire Paranormal, but since the tender age of 8 I have had a love for all things unexplained, partly what drew me to the Ripper case.

My farther used to buy me all the latest books and magazines on the subject of the unexplained, and one year bought me a 20 video UFO boxset covering all aspects of the massive UFO case.

In the mid 1990's I joined Hull UFO Society but soon lost intrest and decided to go it alone.

Over the years I have had many personal experiences, from sightings of ghosts, to observing strange lights in the skies, from run in's with devil worshippers to being warned away from MOD land back in the early 90's.

So what are your fave mysteries?
Sea Monsters?
Lake Monsters?
Wild Men?
Big Cats?
UFO's?
USO's?
Ancient Astronauts?
Lost Civilisations?
Advanced Ancient Knowledge?
Ghosts?
Poltergeist?
Possessions?
ESP?
Spiritualism?

The list is endless, but anyone who wishes to add something, or discuss a case please do so, I will be adding a case from a different subject weekly for discussion starting tommorrow.

[Vila]

So what are your fave mysteries?
Sea Monsters?
Lake Monsters?
Wild Men?
Big Cats?
UFO's?
USO's?
Ancient Astronauts?
Lost Civilisations?
Advanced Ancient Knowledge?
Ghosts?
Poltergeist?
Possessions?
ESP?
Spiritualism?


I tend to lump the Ancient Astronauts/Advanced Ancient Knowledge/Lost Civilisations catagories into one group I think of as "Archeological Anachronisms". I find that sort of thing to be quite interesting. But I never liked the way some folks tend to think that we humans are too stupid to have built our ancient cities, monuments, and earthworks without some "wise and benevolent aliens" providing the knowledge.

I also enjoy cryptozoology subjects like Bigfoot and Jungle Dinosaurs and the Lake & Sea monsters. I used to really get into UFOs and the whole MIB phenomenon, but always kept my scepticism healthy. I never really got into hauntings and poltergeists, or spiritualism however.

Loads of neat stuff to discuss on your list, Mike. I look forward to it.

Vila

[Mike Covell]

I do enjoy a good Cryptozoological mystery.

Fortean Times has a regular feature by Dr. Karl Shuker who looks at the weird and wonderful species recently found and there are some nice little creatures that have evaded us for years. Alien Zoo is its name and the magazine runs it online occasionaly.

It makes you wonder just what is left to explore, and what awaits us!!

I read an intresting piece on the Mongolian Blood Worm recently, even looking at it can kill, although I tend to believe much of these legends are fabricated around half truths.

The list for the unexplained is endless, and i could natter on all day about any given area, and even the areas I have not put down.

[Stan Reid]

I guess, flying saucers and sea monsters because they're the most fun. (to me anyway):alien:

[Vila]

I wind up visiting the Fortean Times website at least once a month. There's usually a few good articles there to read.

That reminds me, I have old copies of all four of Fort's books that someone had written up as web pages. I really ought to pull those up and re-format the HTML into something more easily readable.

I'm going to open up the chatroom now, in case anyone wants to continue the Fortean discussion in realtime.

Vla

[Stan Reid]

Serial killer profiling probably should be on that list as well although it's much less likely to be real.

[Mike Covell]

I would love to see Forts stuff, I had the opportunity to buy his works on CD rom a couple of years ago but it was sooo expensive and I decided against it. I love Flying Saucers and Sea Monsters, and guess the logical step between the two USO's!!

Unidentified Submersible Objects are really bizarre and usually take the form of spinning wheels!! I hate it when they are refered to as Underwater Submersible Objects, thats like calling a ufo an Unidentified Flying Airborn saucer!!

Anyway I will start posting some case studies for discussion tommorrow, my PC wont let me go into the jtr forums chatroom!!

Take care

[Dougie]

Not quite charles fortes territory ,but a mystery all the same (sort of)...The lost dutchman mine...no ufos or sasquatchs involved im afraid ,and probabley 50% folk lore,but still quite intriguing for those that are familiar with it.The "lost adams" is similar but theres very little evidence for that apart from gossip.

[Sam Flynn]

Sadly, having once enthused over all the above, I cannot hand on heart say that I believe in any of them any longer. When I did, I guess it was in the area of UFOs, The Bermuda Triangle and mediumship. Indeed, I still have a lingering sense of "well... maybe" about Daniel Dunglas Home, who appears to have possessed remarkable gifts, whatever their true nature.

Today, the mysteries that enthrall me are the purely physical ones, like the birth of the universe, the origins of life from inorganic matter, or its presence on other planets - which I find no less mysterious or awe-inspiring than the aforementioned.

[Dan Norder]

Most of the topics listed above aren't mysteries and have been explained. The most interesting part about these topics is exploring how these beliefs are spread and change over time and why people chase after them instead of seeking out more reliable information.

[Dougie]

As thE saying goes "history is changed one word at a time" one could substitute the word "mysteries" for history"(s).I think that phrase could apply to a lot of the so called mysteries everyones familiar with....i.e the story grows with the telling.

[Howard Brown]

Today, the mysteries that enthrall me are the purely physical ones, like the birth of the universe, the origins of life from inorganic matter, or its presence on other planets - which I find no less mysterious or awe-inspiring than the aforementioned.--Samuel Proteus Flynn, Ripperologist,Metaphysician,Nietzsche buff, and Humorist.


Not me Sammy ! The biggest mystery I have on my mind right now is how to get some of that psilocybin outta Ireland that Lars (Mr.P) mentioned.

Thats C12 H17 N2 O4 P...:rolleyes:

[Paul]

I would love to see Forts stuff, I had the opportunity to buy his works on CD rom a couple of years ago but it was sooo expensive and I decided against it. I love Flying Saucers and Sea Monsters, and guess the logical step between the two USO's!!

Unidentified Submersible Objects are really bizarre and usually take the form of spinning wheels!! I hate it when they are refered to as Underwater Submersible Objects, thats like calling a ufo an Unidentified Flying Airborn saucer!!

Anyway I will start posting some case studies for discussion tommorrow, my PC wont let me go into the jtr forums chatroom!!

Take care

Mike,
All Fort's books can be bought via ABE UK (http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=Charles+Fort&sortby=3&sts=t&x=63&y=17) for a few pounds and well worth the investment. Baggins has the Complete Works for £23. There's also a decent biography by science fiction author Damon Knight called Charles Fort: Profit of the Unexplained which costs £30 or more. Damn, I had a copy once, may still have it somwhere...
Cheers
Paul

[admin tim]

This is the copy I have:

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/doverpublications_1993_25704698

And it may be purchased at

http://store.doverpublications.com/0486230945.html

[Stan Reid]

Yes, the origin of the universe is the biggest mystery. I think it must have something to do with time running backwards prior and anti-dimensions where all things are smaller than nothing.:eek:

Stan

[Mr. Poster]

hi ho How

I have to be careful here.....

Lets say you were out in the fields towards the end of the summer and DID NOT want to contemplate the mysteries of the universe. Absolutely DID NOT! And you were picking mushrooms for brekkie.

Then you would NOT want to make a mistake and pick these fellas:

So you are clear as to what NOT to pick, they are called "Psilocybe semilanceata" or the Liberty Cap. Im not sure if thats because they look like a Phrygian hat or they are a cap you wear to obtain liberty.

And should you be shopping for Christmas goodies you would NOT want to drop by some of the online Dutch health food shops for some tasty mushrooms.

Nor would you want to be out in the fields in Oregon in late September.

Be careful folks! Its a minefield out there.

p

[Kim Ross]

Gday. I think eating those would help you understand the mysteries of the universe without any trouble.

Cheers

[Mike Covell]

Thanks for p on the Fort stuff guys, I am trying to find a UK seller as the postage and shipping would be crazy.

The Mystery of the Universe is the ultimate of them all really, with questions posed as how did we get here and why!!

It amazes and humbles me when I look up at the sky at night and know I am looking into something which I will never understand.

I will post a case study shortly before lunch, my "Sky Tv Box" blew up last night, and I have to remove the box and unplug everything!!

:banghead:

[Stan Reid]

Hi Mike,

It sounds like a flying saucer particle beam weapon like the one that shot down the Stardust in 1947.:suspicious:

It's either that or HARP.

Stan

[Mike Covell]

There is something out there trying to get me!!:boxing:

Righto,

I would like to ask everyone's opinions on the Cities of Cydonia, the strange structures discovered on Mars in the region of Cydonia?

The strange structures rose to prominance in the 1990's when Richard Hoagland formed the Enterprise Mission in the hope of finding anomolous structures in the area were satelites had picked up the "Face".
Opinion is divided over the "Face" with recent fly by's showing an eroded mound, in the vast landscape.

Here is Hoaglands site http://www.enterprisemission.com/
It is a rather large site with loads of places to visit.

[Mike Covell]

Just what occured on the December evening in 1980 which frightened several USAF Officers???

Did we actually make contact with a UFO and its Ocupants, or did they see the local Orford Ness Lighthouse?

Here are some Parlimentary Questions asked in the House of Lords by Admiral Lord Hill-Norton. The comments are from the late Georgina Bruni, who wrote the excellent book on the subject, "You Can't Tell The People"

Another excellent book on the subject is "Left at the East Gate" by Larry Warren and Peter Robbins.


23 Jan 2001 : Column WA7
Blundeston Prison and Hollesley Bay YCC (now YOI - Young Offenders Institution):
Possible Evacuation Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether staff at Blundeston Prison or Hollesley Bay Youth Correction Centre received any instructions to prepare for a possible evacuation at some time between 25 and 30 December 1980; and if so, why these instructions were issued.[HL319]
23 Jan 2001 : Column WA8
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Bassam of Brighton): We can find no record of any such instructions.
G.Bruni Comments: Lord Hill -Norton asked a similar Question a few years ago concerning Highpoint prison. The Answer was that the warden's log for that period was no longer available. The reason for these Questions was because a prison officer had claimed that Highpoint had been on alert for evacuation on 27 December 1980. Since then (see my book) I have learnt of two more local prisons that were said to be on alert (as above). I am not satisfied with the Answer and hope that Lord Hill-Norton will ask it again in more detail. We need to know why they can find no records. Have these logs gone missing too and, if so, why?


25 Jan 2001 : Columns WA21/22 Rendlesham Forest Incident
Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are aware of any involvement by Special Branch personnel in the investigation of the 1980 Rendlesham Forest incident.[HL303]
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Special Branch officers may have been aware of the incident but would not have shown an interest unless there was evidence of a potential threat to national security. No such interest appears to have been shown.
G.Bruni Comments: According to the Deputy Base Commander of AFOSI RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge (at time of incident) Special Branch would have been alerted. My argument is that the incident was a threat to national security because these objects were intruding on British territory and could have been anything from Soviet craft to terrorists, therefore SB should have at least checked out the incident before passing it over to another agency. The commander actually offered the names of the SB officers that would have had this information. I did not publish their names for obvious reasons. If no interest was shown then we must question our security agencies.


Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether personnel from Porton Down visited Rendlesham Forest or the area surrounding RAF Walton in December 1980 or January 1981; and whether they are aware of any tests carried out in either of those two areas aimed at assessing any nuclear, biological or chemical hazard.[HL301]
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: The staff at the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency (DERA) Chemical and Biological Defence (CBD) laboratories at Porton Down have made a thorough search of their archives and have found no record of any such visits.
G.Brini Comments: That should have been RAF "Watton" not Walton. According to my witness from RAF Watton, some agency, presumably from Porton Down, did visit Watton and investigate the area on the perimeter of the base. Then the question is, if they were not from Porton Down, which is the place one would expect it to be, where was the unit from? I expect like the first Answer, any reference to this event has been carefully logged elsewhere.


Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are aware of any uncorrelated targets tracked on radar in November or December 1980; and whether they will give details of any such incidents.[HL302]
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Records dating from 1980 no longer exist. Paper records are retained for a period of three years before being destroyed. Recordings of radar data are retained for a period of thirty days prior to re-use of the recording medium.
G.Bruni Comments: It is a fact that radar tracking tapes are re-used but there should be paper records. If this is the case then why was researcher Nick Redfern able to get verbatim data (from the logs) in 1987.


Unidentified Flying Objects
Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
What is the highest classification that has been applied to any Ministry of Defence document concerning Unidentified Flying Objects.[HL304]
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: A limited search through available files has identified a number of documents graded Secret. The overall classification of the documents was not dictated by details of specific sightings of "UFOs".
G.Bruni Comments: I think that is very interesting and if the Rendlesham files are secret as I would expect them to be, we may never see them.


30 Jan 2001 : Column WA49
Rendlesham Forest/RAF Bentwaters Incident
Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will detail the underground facilities at the former RAF Bentwaters installation; and what is the purpose of these facilities.[HL320]
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean):
There are no underground facilities at the former RAF Bentwaters.
G.Bruni Comments: Actually, there are underground facilities at Bentwaters but they are sealed. The security chief at the installation who gave me a guard and permission to investigate the buildings, told me the underground facilities were sealed when the MOD put the base up for sale. He had written several times to the MOD requesting details of these but although they promised to look into the matter, he received nothing. I also discovered a door in the main command post that was clearly an entrance to an underground facility because it could not lead to anywhere above ground. The guard had no keys for this very important door that was covered in warning signs. According to the chief of security there are still several parts of the installation that are sealed. So, the Answer is in essence is crafty because as the facilities are now sealed, one could surmise that there are none.


Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are aware of any involvement in the 1980 Rendlesham Forest incident by either Ministry of Defence Policy or personnel from the Suffolk Constabulary.[HL321)
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean:
The Minister of Defence is not aware of any involvement by the Ministry of Defence Police in the alleged incident. The Ministry of Defence's knowledge of involvement by the Suffolk Police is limited to a letter dated 28 July 1999 from the Suffolk Constabulary to Georgina Bruni that is contained in the recent book.
G.Bruni Comments: According to the Deputy Base Commander of AFOSI RAF Bentwaters/Woodbridge (at time of incident), a member of the ARRS and two other commanders, the MOD police would have been informed immediately. If the MOD have to resort to my book for information then we must question why this is so. Where are these records?


Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they are aware of any investigation of the 1980 Rendlesham Forest incident carried out by the United States Air force, the Air Force Office of Special Investigations or any other United States agency.[HL322]
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean:
The Ministry of Defence's knowledge of an investigation by the US authorities into the alleged incident in Rendlesham Forest in 1980 is limited to the information contained in the memorandum sent by Lt Col Halt USAF, Deputy Base Commander at RAF Woodbridge, to the RAF Liaison Officer at RAF Bentwaters on 13 January 1981.
G.Bruni Comments: Notice there is no mention of the covering note from Squadron Leader Donald Moreland which is titled "Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs)" Also no mention of the telephone calls he made concerning the incident, which really should have been logged considering they were from the British Liaison Officer. What has happened with this case is that the MOD have not left a paper trail.


30 Jan 2001 : Column WA50
Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether, in the light of the new information contained in Georgina Bruni's book You Can't Tell the People, they will now launch an investigation into the Rendlesham Forest incident and the response to this incident by the United States Air Force and the Ministry of Defence.[HL352]#
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean:
No additional information has come to light over the last 20 years to call into question the original judgment by the Ministry of Defence that nothing of defence significance occurred in the location of Rendlesham Forest in 1980. Accordingly there is no reason to hold an investigation now.
G.Bruni Comments: This is the Answer that really annoys me (it's the standard line) because I am aware (from a memo that had my name on it) and has since been stamped "restricted" that certain high officials have read my book. Therefore the MOD must have all the new information. If the officials in office at this time are not aware of anything else due to the cover-up, then the information in my book alone should be enough to open an investigation.


Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they have made any approach to, or received any approach from, any United States government or military agency concerning Georgina Bruni's book You Can't Tell the People; and, if so, whether they will give details of any such approach. [HL353]
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean:
As a matter of courtesy, the Ministry of Defence informed Headquarters 3rd Air Force at RAF Mildenhall about the book. The US authorities have not subsequently approached the Ministry of Defence on the issue.
G.Bruni Comments: If there is no additional information then why would it be necessary to alert RAF Mildenhall about my book. After all, it's just a UFO story and according to the MOD it is of no defence interest....


Lord Hill-Norton asked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they now agree with the analysis of the basic facts of the Rendlesham Forest/RAF Bentwaters incident in the fourth paragraph of Lord Hill-Norton's letter to Lord Gilbert of 22 October 1997, reported on page 429 of Georgina Bruni's book You Can't Tell the People; or, if not, in what respect they disagree. [HL354]
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean:
The Ministry of Defence's position regarding this alleged sighting remains as it did at the time of Lord Gilbert's reply to the noble Lord's letter of 22nd October 1997. From surviving departmental records, we remain satisfied that nothing of defence significance occurred on the nights in question.
G.Bruni Comments: That's a very interesting reply considering Lord Gilbert's reply suggested that they did not routinely contact witnesses who submit reports of UFOs. In this instance the witness was Lt Colonel Charles I Halt, Deputy Base Commander of a NATO installation in Britain that deployed nuclear weapons.
Does this mean that anybody can hover over and land a craft on the perimeter of a British military base and scare the hell out of numerous military personnel and get away with it?
If that is the case then it's amazing that Britain has not been invaded years ago.


Lord Hill-Norton has had a passionate interest in this case for many years and has done a good job in trying to get answers and, I know he is as annoyed as others that the MOD keep avoiding the issues.
I stand by my case; this incident has to be of extreme defence significance. The problem is (and I quote our former Prime Minister who was in office at the time of the incident, Margaret Thatcher) "You can't tell the people".

[Rescue Dog]

:alien::alien::alien::bowdown::alien::alien:

Mike,

I've taken some of the stuff you were on last night and I can categorically cofirnm that it was indeed a UFO!

Brian:faint::alien:

[Mike Covell]

Just high on life Brian!!

:high5:

[Rescue Dog]

Hey, I wish I could get that high. Actually, this story is one that has intrigued me for a long time. Did you see the TV documentary on this subject about a year ago? It was very impressively done, and made no direct conclusions, leaving it to the viewer to draw their own from the evidence and statements presented.

Best regards

Brian:high5:

[Mike Covell]

There have been so many doc's, dissertations and books written on the subject, many claiming to have solved the mystery of the Rendlesham Incident, but only go part way in explaining a small fraction of what was reported.

For eg,

The flashing light was the Orford Ness Lighthouse, which doesn't explain what was actually physically seen by the servicemen in the forest, and later by a group in the field!!

And why the secrecy over a lighthouse!!

[Dougie]

The problem with the rendlesham incident and most others is we read a book with the facts and think " christ this is weird,govt cover up here " or whatever ,based on the info in that book , that we accept as true. mostly we only get half the story from the author,but lots of people think it must be the truth , purely cos its in the book. Usually its selective evidence presented, bare faced lies told and minor details warped sufficiently enough to add weight to the authors version.any govt version or contradictory evidence put forward is viewed as part of the conspiracy to hush the incident up......you can never win.:nono:
regards

[Mike Covell]

So what if there was a genuine witness with checkable credentials who was there on the night?
What if this witness saw something so amazing he put it in a memorandum to the Ministry of defence?

Here is the Halt Memo

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/the-halt-memo-small.gif

[Mike Covell]

Here is a little about the memo and the gent who wrote it,

The memo's background
After the incident, Lt. Colonel Charles Halt spoke to Donald Moreland about the UFO case. Moreland expressed his interest but told Halt that he had to report what he had seen to Britain's Ministry of Defence. After all, the whole event had occurred on British soil.
Therefore, over two weeks after the incident Charles Halt typed a memorandum and sent it to the MoD with a covering letter from British Liaison Officer; Donald Moreland. Halt had condensed a three night long UFO incident into a few short paragraphs, so obviously it lacked real detail - it was just a summary. Halt made no mention of the audio tape, the soil samples, the plaster casts or the photographs which had been taken of the landing site; it was certainly not a definitive report.
On the History Channel's UFO documentary "Britain's Roswell " Halt explained what the memo's actual purpose was, "the memo was not meant for public consumption. It was meant as a tickler, if you will, to the Ministry Of Defence to get them involved to do a proper investigation."
There was also another problem, Halt had written it relying solely on his memory so the dates mentioned are wrong. The first incident actually began on the 25/26 December, not the 26/27 December. Additionally, the second incident began on the 27/28, not the 28/29 as implied by the memorandum.
The error in dates proved to be of importance, the MoD had trouble with their investigations as a result of this, as shown in the MoD's files which were released a few years ago.

Why did Halt rely on his memory, why did he not check the blotter?
In an interview with Salley Rayl, Halt explained why, "I tried to go back and recover the police blotter and the security blotter think I mentioned to you earlier to re- affirm the dates. Keep in mind, I wrote the memo several weeks later. And it was not a really important memo. The date was not critical. The critical portion was, you know, what happened and are you interested? And how about getting involved and let's investigate this. It's possible that I, I put the date down wrong. But I don't believe so. I tried to verify later and the police blotters had been taken from repository, probably by a, how shall I say... curiosity seeker."

How did the 'Halt Memorandum' surface?
Larry Warren contacted CAUS (Citizens Against UFO Secrecy). Although they only had his word and a few rumours originating from England they were interested enough to fully investigate the case. After numerous requests from CAUS and numerous denials from the Ministry Of Defence and the United States Air Force, the document was finally released under the FOIA (Freedom Of Information Act) in June 1983 to CAUS.
Apparently, the first copy was sent to CAUS investigator, Robert Todd. After receiving it, it seems reasonable to assume that Todd made copies and shared them with fellow researchers.

The Ministry of Defence never replied to Halt's memorandum.

[Mike Covell]

Transcription of the Memo,

Reply to
atin. of: CD
Subject: Unexplained Lights (13 Jan 81)
To: RAF/CC
1. Early in the morning of 27 Dec 80 (approximately 0300L) two USAF security police patrolmen saw unusual lights outside the back gate at RAF Woodbridge. Thinking an aircraft might have crashed or been forced down, they called for permission to go outside the gate to investigate.... The individuals reported seeing a strange glowing object in the forest. The object was described as being metallic in appearance and triangular in shape, approximately two to three meters across the base and approximately two meters high. It illuminated the entire forest with a white light. The object itself had a pulsing red light on top and a bank(s) of blue lights underneath. The object was hovering or on legs. As the patrolmen approached the object it maneuvered through the trees and disappeared. At this time the animals on a nearby farm went into a frenzy. The object was briefly sighted approximately an hour later near the back gate.
2. The next day, three depressions 1 1/2" deep and 7" in diameter were found where the object had been sighted on the ground. The following night (29 Dec 80) the area was checked for radiation. Beta/Gamma readings of 0.1 milliroentgens were recorded with peak readings in the three depressions and near the center of the triangle formed by the three depressions. A nearby tree had moderate (0.05 - 0.07) readings on the side of the tree facing towards the three depressions.
3. Later in the night a red sun-like object was seen through the trees. It moved about and pulsed. At one point it appeared to throw off glowing particles and then broke into five separate white objects and disappeared. Immediately thereafter, three star like objects were noticed in the sky, two objects to the north and one to the south, all of which were about 10 degrees off of the horizon. The objects moved rapidly in sharp, angular movements and displayed red, green and blue lights. The objects to the north appeared to be elliptical through 8-10 power lens. They then turned to full circles. The objects in the north remained in the sky for an hour or more. The object to the south was visible for two to three hours and beamed down a stream of light from time to time. Numerous individuals, including the undersigned, witnessed the activities in paragraphs 2 and 3.
Charles Halt (signed)
Charles I. Halt. Lt Col, USAF
Deputy Base Commander

[Dougie]

With respect ,just cos a guys a deputy base commander doesnt mean hes not a nut.not saying he is ,just that he could be,and its foolish or risky to accept everything this guy says as fact when he couldnt even get the dates right.:)
an example of what i mean is ...a dallas policeman had a theory about the kennedy assassination, he believed that 22 shots were fired in dealey plaza....5 people were killed but not jfk....tippit was impersonating jfk in the motorcade and it was he who was killed. kennedy lived on in seclusion for the reason his vote was slumping and he didnt want to lose face by losing the election.:)...apparently he had "evidence " to support that ...and signed testimony too....ok maybe he was right.....who are we to say he wasnt?..but i dont want to go into that.....nooooo.
In short show the evidence ,not what could be hyperbole, not what could be conjecture, not what could be considered as opinion or publicity seeking. show official investigation reports, show the opposite conclusion......otherwise.......................
regards

[Mike Covell]

Whilst I agree with your conclusions I must state that this man was in charge of the Nato's Nuclear Arsenal which was kept in bunkers on the base.

This was, after all the closest Nato base to the USSR, and the first line of defence.

Halt was also just one of many who signed statements, often unaware anyone else had also.

Larry Warren wrote about his sightings in "Left at the East gate" as his group were seperate from Holts,
His Disclosure file is here http://www.topsecrettestimony.com/Witnesses/AllWitnesses/SecurityOfficerLarryWarren/tabid/289/Default.aspx

[Dougie]

It seems that part 1 of the testimony is what the deputy base commander was TOLD by others.the sighting of the glowing spacecraft is 2 security guards testimony only?
part 2 which relates the radiation readings are meaningless unless we know what those radiation levels mean ,and whether those readings( if abnormally high or low) could be caused by other means,natural or otherwise.
part 3 says the objects were in the sky for an hour or more, surely that would give ample time to photograph a vast amount of both still and moving film shots . and not only from base but from miles around surely..how many photographs or movies in existence?he appears to say these objects were looked at through 10 zoom lens? room for distortion? wouldnt the objects in the sky,flashing red lights,metallic hovering vehicles first at the front gate,then at the back gate on a nuclear base require a much bigger and immediate response ,not to mention detailed memos ,inquiries, meetings, conferences,inquiries etc?.....
regards

[Mike Covell]

A full investigation was carried out, a full base response was carried out, and photos and film were taken.

Unfortunalty they were all sent to MOD and USAF who are now claiming that despite the Halt Memo suggesting there was a paper trail there wasn't an investigation.

Unfortunatly leaks have revealed
Photo's
The Halt Memorandum
And photo's of the area immediatly after the event.

[Dougie]

If there was an investigation, and it can be proved that there was,and that the MOD and USAF are lying in claiming there wasnt one, then that is different.can it be shown to be so?one memo does not a paper trail make,or at least not in the sense it is meant........maybe if this memo did reach higher levels at the time,perhaps it was looked at, discussed etc but deemed worthless.....because no reference to it being followed up officially doesnyt necessarilly mean it was a cover -up...it could just as well be that the "officials" didnt think there was anything to follow up on.
I did read a complete rebuttal of this case some time ago somewhere, and it was quite convincing.....the popular story seems to be too full of holes for me.....but hey i wasnt there:),so ive only the so called story to go on,and as it stands i cant buy it.
regards

[Mike Covell]

No problems with me Dougie, I will post another case up tommorrow, any suggestions?
I have thousands of files, just name a topic and I will post it.

[Dougie]

hi mike,
how about spontaneous combustion?Im sure there is probabley a scientific answer....just that as far as im aware ,we dont know it yet.
regards

[Mike Covell]

A good suggestion, I actually had some document facsimilies from a case in Hull in the 1700's!!

There used to be a row of lodging houses and a hospital in the City centre next to the Holy Trinity Church.

One of the ladies who was staying was quite elderly and becuase of this, one of her neighbours checked on her throughout the day.

It appears that between the space of an hour she had erupted in flames, with no source of ignition!!

Other than that there was nothing else to go on.

It is a strange phenomena, and tommorrow I will root out some case studies and maybe a few grusome pics!!

[Kim Ross]

Gday. I'm interested in spontaneous human combustion so I'll look forward to that. But to go back to the UFO thread, there was a National Press Club do in Washington on November 12 last year in which some of the participants (or maybe all) that you mention took part.

Cheers

[Mike Covell]

Hi Kim, I believe that was the Disclosure Project, its basically an attempt to end UFO secrecy.
The organisers have hundreds of eye witness testemonies from Civillian and Military aviation, Army, Airforce and Navy personnel, Police Officers, and even Politicians.

These people being trained in observation.

Sadly no proof is good enough for the most sceptical, I like to keep an open mind.....:tape:

[Dougie]

I think most people at a young age fall into the same trap (i certainly did) regarding mysterious happenings etc.You tend to believe the so called facts basically because you read of them in a book.....and if its in a popular book then it must be true we assume.Its only as you get older and realise most of these facts are really non facts.Remember "chariots of the gods" erich von danikens masterpiece? great stuff, unexplainable,solid facts that proved almost beyond doubt that aliens had visited us aeons ago built miles of tunnels underground,created gigantic perfectly rounded balls of stone,constructed aerodromes in the andes no less,knew the secrets of the universe blah blah blah......millions of copies were sold.....millions of people were hooked....cottage industries sprung up around those findings.........pity there was very little substance or truth in those findings...but it was fun .....mind you the fact that daniken had been known as a con -man and fraud years before should have given everyone a hint:becky:......he should have been a politician AND an author methinks.
regards

[Mike Covell]

Hi Dougie,

I have all of his works, but then I have a lot of books by criminals, The Krays, The Richardsons, Chopper, Ivor Edwards, I find them intresting and fun.

Just this morning I took delivery of "Investigating the Unexplained" by the late Ripper Author and lover of all things RDS, Melvin Harris.

I also have his book on the way entitled "Sorry youv'e been duped" which looks at famous hoaxes, and story which seemed to have evidence but had none at all!!

[Dougie]

Mike,
I think ive got few dog eared copies of his books still somewhere around and i must say i enjoyed them ,and if reading those and other works gives you pleasure(as they did me) then it doesnt really matter whether there is any truth in them.
On a side issue regarding reading material I remember a professor emeritius in french once explaining to me what the definition of a "classic" book was....."a book that everybody wants to say theyve read,but one that nobody actually wants to"(read).whats that got to do with fortean times?...nothing :becky: but i thought id say it anyway.
regards

[Mike Covell]

My library stands at several thousand books, there are photos on the "Fess up time" thread in the members only section!

Most of these are paranormal based, and some are more believable than others were as some are downright silly!

I have large collections by authors such as Jenny Randles and Timothy Good which are well researched and well sourced, then there are the "other" books which can be read during a bathroom break and forget about instantly when all is wiped!!

That quote sounds pretty cool and one I can relate too:becky:

[WRITEFX]

Hi Mike, too much information re the toilet LOL however, earlier this week I caught sight of an unusual headline about Hull in the paper and immediately thought of you, but I didn't read it, then forgot where I saw it (typical).

Something odd happen Mike that we should all know about?

[Mike Covell]

Something odd is always happening in this city!!

Nothing that ever warrants National or International Headlines, sure it wasn't the hull in the USA or the Hull in Canada?

[WRITEFX]

No pretty sure it was in UK.

[Mike Covell]

We have had so much going on from a kid who was arrested for 15 counts of arson, actually setting fire to peoples houses!!

I mentioned this on a Hull Daily Mail website months ago, little took notice!!

We also had one of the councillors announce he was taking home a small fortune every year, all while services are being cut, buildings stand empty and crime is on the increase!

Then a 14 year old boy ended up being killed by a bus.

It might have been the Simon Murden inquest,

This guy has a psychotic episode, possibly due to drugs, drives the wrong way down the main route out of hull, into oncoming traffic, then when the Police try and stop him, he gets out the van armed with loads of swords!!

Non lethal methods were used on him to no avail, so he was shot in the leg with a real gun, he still kept coming!!

Now think about what you would do, i know what I would have done.

The Police shot the guy several times until he was dead, good on em, give them all medals!!

But the family are all blaming the police!!

I hope I see the family, I would run at them with a sword, and see what they do!!

Hubdreds of innocent motorists on a motorway or some lone nut with a stash of swords....no contest really.

[Mike Covell]

Ok here is a list of alleged Lake Monsters,

Loch Ness Monster aka Nessie, the much loved lake monster, tourist attraction and infamous beast.

Morag, Lives in Loch Morar in the North Western Highlands. Alleged to be about 9m long with humps!

Mokele-Mbembe, Seen in several lakes in the region of the Congo, a herbivore, with a 200 year history.

Lake Tele Monster, said to inhabit Lake Tele, in the region near the Congo, a film crew flew over the lake a filmed a strange object moving at speed on the lakes surface.

Champ, Resident of Lake Champlain and part of local tribal legend.

Beast of Bala, Said to inhabit Lake bala in Wales, this creature has been described as a humped crocodile!!

Ogopogo, Lives in Lake Okanagan, British Columbia. First report from 1860 by European settlers, dozens of witnesses saw it in 1926!

Manipogo, Resident of Lake Manitoba, Canada, sightings of the beast date back over a century.

Lake Tianchi Monster, Lives in the lake of the same name on the border of China and North Korea.

Selma, Resident of Lake Seljord in Sweden, several pieces of footage of this alleged monster exist!

Ponic, Lives in Lake Pohenegamook, Canada and has been spotted and filmed on numerous occasions.

Flattie, Lake Flathead, Montana is home to a lake monster with serpent features!

Utopia, Resident of Lake Utopia, Canada, sightings date back to over 100 years.

Cressie, Allegedly looks like a giant eel! Resident of Crescent Lake, Central Newfoundland.


Got any more?

Post them on here, any views welcome!!
I have some more but will post tomorrow!!

[Mike Covell]

Here is a great website, but just watch the footage of Lake Champlain and "Champ"!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/abc-champ/

[Kim Ross]

Gday.

I've been reading your account of the bloke with the sword. Good on the coppers. The surgeon picture of Nessie has proved to be a fake. But Nessie is my favourite girl. i'd love to see her waft past me.

Cheers

[ferret]

Gday.

I've been reading your account of the bloke with the sword. Good on the coppers. The surgeon picture of Nessie has proved to be a fake. But Nessie is my favourite girl. i'd love to see her waft past me.

Cheers

That's an odd line.......... waft?? hMMMMMM MAYBE A DAMNED GREAT SURGE THAT MADE YOU SIT UP AND THINK........!

no offence

Suzi

[Chris Scott]

Hi Mike
There is also Lake Van Monster
Some impressive footage at
http://theshadowlands.net/serpvid.htm

[Sam Flynn]

There is also Lake Van Monster...and there's me thinking that Lake Van Monster was a Dutch rock star.

[Mike Covell]

My mothers mother was on holiday back in 1933, and visiting her relatives with her parents in Scotland. They were driving along the Loch when they saw something on the shore, so stopped the car and got out.

On the far side of the Loch a large living creature sat on the shore, it moved slowley into the water and vanished.

She described it as black and shiny, with fat legs and reminded her of an elephant.

There used to be a circus entertainer that washed his elephants in the loch, but she was adamant she saw Nessie!

It was also during the 1930's that sightings of the beast were becoming more frequent.

[Mike Covell]

On the subject of Lake Monsters, I was in the local ASDA earlier and spotted "Loch Ness Terror" for about £3!!

The reviews on IMDB all say it's a stinker of a film, so I had to buy it!!

The story revolves around a tunnel that links Loch Ness to Lake Eerie!!

It's sounds so bad, it's gotta be good!

[admin tim]

http://www.nbc10.com/slideshows/15663013/detail.html

http://www.nbc10.com/2008/0321/15662691_240X180.jpg

Not a green card between the two of 'em, I'll bet.

[Mike Covell]

Great stuff, my Uncle lives in Calgary, I wonder if they have probed him yet!!

[Ravenstone]

I've met Larry Warren. Nice guy. It's very difficult to sit and chat to him, and listen to what he says, and still believe he didn't see exactly what he says he saw. He can tell you every one of the 'normal' explanations offered, and tell you exactly why that wasn't what he saw. There was certainly a lot more going on than some flashing lights.

I don't know what he saw; but I'm pretty sure it's none of the 'normal' things that have been mooted.

As for favourite lake monsters, I like The Shoni of Marsden Grotto. Okay, not a Lake monster, but still a monster!

When it comes to fortean topics, UFOs are way down on the list. Cryptozoology interests me, but I feel I lack the zoological expertise necessary to discuss the subject properly. The Centre for Fortean Zoology (lovely bunch of people - get to their Weird Weekend if you get the chance) are still out there, off on Indiana Jones style expeditions.

Otherwise, I've got varied tastes, but probably mainly ghost stories, paranormal stuff - poltergeists, SHC, Shroud of Turin, Templar tales, Masonic mysteries, some conspiracies (to a point, just before they get paranoid!), Money Pit. I've been accused of being a 'hard nosed sceptic' and a 'fluffy woo-woo'. Of the two, 'fluffy woo-woo' was the most amusing insult.

[Mike Covell]

On the subject of ghosts, I have a paranormal investigation booked in for this evening! I love all things spooky and have thousands of books on the subject.

[Mike Covell]

I love all things "Paranormal" and actually have an investigation tonight! Taking the wife along, it is only her second investigation, as she spent much of her 1st running, screaming and crying!!

I like cryptozoology and would love to visit Loch Ness, my friend and I planned a visit many years back but it never happened!

Both Larry Warren and Charles Halt seem genuine, likeable guys.

[Ravenstone]

I run a mile at the thought of a ghost hunt LOL! I suppose I'm rather superstitious.

My Other Half did some filming at a haunted house once. Chambercombe Manor. The presenter of the piece burst into spontaneous tears on entering the haunted chamber, and the video battery died after an hour, despite having a usual shelf life of 8-10 hours.

As for me - I stayed at home!

[Mike Covell]

I have been to some plces that just got me down, I have no special gifts, but you just sense all the death and pain there! I 've been close to tears but I try to rationalise it.

I have had a few experiences and have often thought there is nothing that can hurt you, but in November 2007 I was at Hull new theatre and was scratched by something which had entered the royal box whilst I sat in the dark alone.

My neck had a massive red scratch and it really put me out for the evening! After that the group leaders were saying, "Go down there on your own!" and it really put me off.

I have not investigated anywere for 5 months, tonight, I will be unpacking my kit and going on another mission!

[Ravenstone]

Well, good luck. I hope you come out unscathed this time.

I'd be interested in hearing what goes on, or what doesn't, as the case may be.

[Mike Covell]

I will write a report on this site for you to read.
The building is always active, and we never leave without "something":becky:

[Mike Covell]

Well, we were not let down last night!!

We had lights turn on and off on request,
Knocks and taps in response to questions,
Doors opening and closing on other levels of the building,
but I had an amazing experience that I am still trying to get my head around!

We were asking out, and it sounded like a child was crying just beyond the doorway, but upon checking there was no one there.
I suddenylgot really upset, I wanted to cry, I got headache, and as quick as it began, it ended!

We went to visit a little room full of bookcases, and after my experience I decided to sit down and take a break. It was then that I saw him!

Beyond the book cases, through the shelves, I saw a little boy about 7/8, with blonde curly hair, watching me, he seemed to smile and move to the side out of view as if he was playing hide and seek!

I jumped to my feet quickly and in doing so scared my friends!

Other things happened but that for me was amazing!

[Ravenstone]

Wow, that was an eventful night! Are there stories to account for what you experienced? Does anyone know who the child is? What kind of clothes was he wearing?

Sorry - I do tend to ask a million and one questions.

[Mike Covell]

The little boy is supposedly called Karl/Carl. I have gone through the census records etc and can find no trace of him, however the family built the house in 1740 (ish) and there were other buildings on that site from at least the 1600's! So its a tough one!

We have access to all the families genealogical data but when the ladies of the family were having 10 kids per marriage it just grows so big that the family tree's are quite massive!

Other witnesses have seen and heard children in that area, and the room was at one point was, a nursary!

As I only saw his head it was difficult to establish what he was wearing but it was like he was playing hide and seek with us!!

[Ravenstone]

Interesting. Particularly that he's interacting with the living. Has anyone tried taking toys and leaving them around to see if it draws him out? Simple things like tops and balls.

[Mike Covell]

The section where the little boy is, is a working archive/library, so leaving stuff around is difficult for health and safety reasons. I did take a glow in the dark ping pong ball which we through, but it never came back. I then had to go and retrieve it, and all the time I was thinking

"Please don't move now!"

I try to do a little research before I visit so I can take trigger objects which are pertinant to the period. Although a bible, drawn around, on a note pad works just as well!

It's fun but frustrating, especially when you have been sat in an area for 20 minutes then leave, only for something happen there! I cannot explain why it happens, but I believe it has something to do with the energy we have been building up in that area before we move.

Every investigation is like a rollercoaster, you do not know what your going to get, you have highs, lows, you laugh, and can cry, but at the end it's a great feeling when you come out the other side.

[Ravenstone]

It's the whole Trickster thing as well. And a spot of quantum, of course. The act of observing alters the experiment. And when you're not looking, Tricksters like to act.

The grandmother of a colleague of my partner died Sunday. Her mother/daughter was with her when she died. The old lady had suffered a great deal with cancer, having had her legs amputated last year. Her once brown eyes had gone milky. When she died, she opened her eyes, and they were dark brown once more. She took one breath, then went. At which point a brilliant beam of sunshine broke through the clouds and straight through the window. When they went to start sorting through her effects, they found that the only clock in the grandmother's house had stopped at 10.:13 - it could have been stopped for some time, no-one has been in the house for a while. 10:13 was the time death was recorded.

None of that means anything to you or me, but it means something to the grieving family of course. To me, it's a mildly interesting coincidence. To them, it shows predestination, meaning, a higher purpose. And I'm not going to contradict that. There are too many stories of things happening at the point of death. If they give comfort, then it doesn't really matter to me whether they can be scientifically 'proven' or not.

[Mike Covell]

Wow, thats a lovely story, really intresting and your right.

If it makes people happy amd cope with it better, then so be it!

I was diagnosed with a heart condition 2 years ago, I had major heart surgery 1 year ago today, and back at the time I was told it was critical.
I planned my funeral, and wrote my will out, and it made me reassess my life.

My wife and kids, mother and father are all my main priority, I have also chilled out and live life to the fullest.

I still have my heart condition, and paranormal Investigations really chill me out.

[Ravenstone]

It's interesting how many of these kind of stories are about. Everyone seems to know something that happened as someone died. My friend's father sat up and smiled at someone no-one else could see - she likes to think it was her mother who had died a few months previously. She also says that in his last few days, he would talk to her mother as if she were present.

My Nan, a nurse for many years, often dealt with the wife on one ward and the husband on the other ward (back in the days of separate sex wards!). On one occasion, she received the message that the husband had died, and when she went to tell the wife, the wife said she already knew because she's seen a white bird fly through the ward and out the window. The windows happened to be closed at the time. But there were quite a few times when things like this happened.

It was stories like those that first got me interested in the paranormal (or fortean studies, whatever you want to call it, considering how much is covered by such a broad subject). My Grandad was a senior charge nurse in a mental institution, and had a complete set of his own stories as well, which fascinated me. Plus he was a very superstitious chap, which is surprising as he was highly intelligent, and had quite a few folklore stories as well.

[Mike Covell]

I have heard quite a lot like that, one lady I know was holding her hand out, and told the family her husband had come for her!

Another lady was scared of the tall man in black who would stand at the foot of the bed! She told the nurses this for some nights then one morning she told the nurses it was fine, her son had returned and told her they were just doing there job, she died hours later.

I have also collected a couple of stories regarding near death experiences, one from a man who describes being stuck in a steep black tunnel. He became a born again christian after his experience. Not all bad though, my old neighbour was close to death and described hovering over the room, and who was doing what, etc. Afterwards she told the nurses, who were suprised that she had seen it all!

I will leave you with a story from a security gaurd friend of mine.
He was sent to a care home and asked to do rounds every half hour, having no medical skill he didn't check on the patients just the doors and windows.
Late at night the nurse was away from the station and one of the patients alarms was ringing so Andy went running to find the nurse, he realised it could be a life or death matter so gave up his search and ran to the individuals room.
When he got there he saw a little old lady dead behind the door, she had slipped and had a nasty cut on her head which had covered the room in blood. Her body was lifeless behind the door, but Andy pushed it open and then ran for help.

The nurse returned with him and the room was fine, no old dead lady, no blood nothing!

Andy was told she was a patient who was hungry for attention, she would ring her bell until someone went to help, on occasion they ignored her. It was during the final time, when they ignored her, that she had slipped, banged her head and died!

He lasted just one night on the ward!

[Ravenstone]

I like it!

I'm reading Peter Haining's Dictionary of Ghosts at the moment. Something I picked up at the library the other day and thought worth a browse. While I read quite a few of the more indepth studies, I have to admit my favourite kind is the short stories just like the one you relate. No attempt at interpretation or dissection. Just the story itself.

Apparently, there is a book out on the South Shields Poltergeist, by Mike Hallowell and another investigator. I'm off to Amazon to browse for it.

[Mike Covell]

I have quite a few short "true" ghost stories, and read them all the time. What I love is that they are quick and easy to pick up and read, withoug getting too involved. I bought a book by a guy from someplace foregin that has over 1,000 case studies globally! It is really easy to pick up and read, weighs a ton and is really thick!!

I like Peter Haining's Dictionary of Ghosts and bought it for a couple of pounds from a back street in Beverley. It is a great book, I also have some rarities and looked up one this morning which has a price of over £300!! Not bad when I payed £8.00 for it!

I have both volumnes of "Survival after death" by Rev Charles Tweedale. The first volumne contains the Robert D'Onston Stephenson story "Dead or Alive", and is full of victorian tales.

I also like mythology and legends, especially those that involve ghosts, witches, black dogs etc! I have quite a few books on those subjects too!

[Ravenstone]

Sounds like we were separated at birth. :becky:

[Mike Covell]

I just love all things unexplained! When I was a teen I was crazy on UFO's, I would sit and read up on cases, and even joined a ufo group.
My mother hated it all, thinking it was some sort of cult, then in late 1990's she had an experience, and was soon asking me loads of questions!!

My father has always encouraged my intrest and would always get me books and video's on the paranormal, in fact, when they go away they still do!
My mother still gets me UFO related stuff for xmas! This xmas past I got a talking alien alarm clock!

:faint:

[Ravenstone]

I have to admit that UFOs leave me a bit cold. I am interested in the whole alien abduction scenarios, but not from a UFO angle. My interest is in the whole question of memories, hypnotism, and repression, as well as the alleged 'recovery' of memories, and methods of questioning, and how it can affect witness statements. Which takes in everything from alien abduction to Satanic Ritual Abuse.

[Mike Covell]

I have a massive collection of alien abduction material from Strieber, to Hynek and the work of Derrell Sims. Sims would accompany alleged aductee's to hospital, and over the years has amassed a large amount of "alien matter" which has been taken from the aductee's bodies!

I also studies the Linda Corso abduction which involved numerous witnesses and members of a UN team!

[Mike Covell]

This from Sky News today,
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...317520,00.html (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1317520,00.html)

Film Of 'Living Alien' To Be Shown
Updated:16:13, Thursday May 29, 2008


A US campaigner has vowed to release a video which he says proves the existence of aliens.
Jeff Peckman, who claims the film features a living extraterrestrial, will show the footage to the media on Friday.

The 54-year-old is lobbying for a commission to be set up in Denver so the city can prepare for contact with alien life.

Mr Peckman promised to show the film to officials when he appeared before them earlier this month.

He told the Rocky Mountain News: "It shows an extraterrestrial's head popping up outside of a window at night, looking in the window, that's visible through an infrared camera."

Mr Peckman - who said the film convinced him that aliens exist and the city needed to act - said the creature is about 4ft tall and can be seen blinking.

"As impressive as it is, it's still one tiny portion in the context of a vast amount of peripheral evidence," he said.

"It's really the final visual confirmation of what you already know to be true having seen all the other evidence."

Mr Peckham added that other "related credible evidence" proving aliens exist will also be shown at at the news conference.

He said an instructor at the Colorado Film School in Denver has analysed the video "very carefully" and said it was authentic.

The general public will have to wait to see the footage as it is being included in a forthcoming documentary.

[Mike Covell]

No sight of this crazy alien house breaking! Anyone else seen it??:sick: