A.P. Wolf & The Old Bailey Thread

[How Brown]

This thread will serve as the repository for what A.P.Wolf finds within the pages of Old Bailey transcripts.

Should A.P. begin to place names, references, and subject matter that you as a reader would like to discuss, let Howard Brown or Tim Mosley know and either one of us will immediately establish a thread parallel and relative to this one for member repartee and discussion....but not on this particular thread.

Thank you.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks How.
I still await the spring birth of this new baby at the Old Bailey, but hopefully we can all celebrate very soon.
It should be pointed out that the Old Bailey trials are easily accessible to all, but it takes a while to get used to the search engines, and how to tickle them so they respond with the information you want rather than tons of information which one would never get through in a century.
If anyone ever needs some advice, I'm always here.
Just like How, I believe the release of the new trials from the Old Bailey will totally radicalise the previous attitudes that many have held in regard to the Whitechapel Murders; and names that have either never been seen before, or have received scant attention, will have far more impact on our understanding than many of the individuals which many still today view as valid suspects.
The files will be priceless just alone for the forensic detail they contain concerning cases of violent crime against women.
We will have exact details and figures for such violent crime from the years prior to 1888, and afterwards; and we are going to meet a hell of a lot of people we never even heard of.
The times they are a'changing.

[How Brown]

JMenges and I were chatting this morning and the issue of suspects came up.

It seems at times...that unless material is found or rehashed ( positively or negatively ) on individuals from within the cadre of suspects that we already have at our disposal, anything new on anyone "new" often goes down the proverbial memory hole within a short period of time.

It's sort of a goal or wish of mine that none of the existing suspects are worth discussing in the future, unless its in a biographical sense, and unless their candidacy is still potentially "alive".

If that could be attained, then what about Ripperologists 20 to 50 years down the line ?

Thats where the Old Bailey comes in.

There may be 50 or so men...maybe more....who could concievably fill in the space of the "Unknown,East End man" that many hold as the best bet for the billing as the Ripper. Remember, we ought to be keeping future Ripperologists, even those not born yet, in mind in our efforts,studies,and research. I see few better ways of ensuring a sound future than I do in the opening of the Old Bailey transcripts in the area of new suspects.

[A.P. Wolf]

I'm pleased to announce that the new Old Bailey has just come on line.
Let's get with it.
Don't expect to hear from me for about a year.

[How Brown]

A.P.

If possible, could you provide the URL for that on this thread?

Thanks and happy hunting ! Nina wants in on this in a big way too.

How

[A.P. Wolf]

I would love to, How, but urls die as soon as I touch 'em.
It's there, and available, that's all I can say.
This is the actual trial of a Timothy Donovan for murder in 1903, note his previous.

TIMOTHY DONOVAN, Killing > murder, 30th March 1903.

Reference Number: t19030330-334
Offence: Killing (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Crimes.jsp#killing) > murder (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Crimes.jsp#murder)
Verdict: Guilty (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Verdicts.jsp#guilty) > manslaughter (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Verdicts.jsp#partialmanslaughter)
Punishment: Imprisonment (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#imprisonment) > penal servitude (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#penalservitude)


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334. TIMOTHY DONOVAN (40) , For the wilful murder of Mary Donovan; he was also charged on the Coroner's Inquisition with the like offence.
MR. MUIR, MR. BIRON, MR. LEYCESTER and MR. STEPHENSON Prosecuted; and DR. COUNSEL Defended.
HARRY WOODLEY (343 H). Produced and proved a plan of the first floor of 27, Lucas Street, Commercial Road.
MARY ANN HOGMAN . I am the wife of Andrew Hogman, of 97, Sutton Street. E.—the deceased was my aunt, and had been married to the prisoner nine years, but they had been living together as man and wife for six years previous to that—they had been living at 27, Lucas Street during the last two years—my aunt was employed by a firm of seed sorters in Houndsditch—the prisoner is a coal porter—the deceased was 37 when she died.
Cross-examined. I have seen the prisoner often during the past two years—he occasionally took drink, but was very quiet when sober—my aunt did not indulge in drinking, she used to be at work till 8 p.m.—the prisoner was very kind and affectionate to her when sober, it was only in drink when rows occurred.
KATHARINE McGEORGE (Not examined in chief.)
Cross-examined. I live at 22, Albert Street, Caver Street, Shadwell—I knew Mary Donovan, I worked with her at the time of her death—Saturday, March 7th, we came home from work together at about I o'clock—we called at two public-houses and (had two glasses of ale ach—I left her between 5 and 5.30.
HANNAH WALLIS . (Not examined in chief.)
Cross-examined. I live at 29, Dean Street—I knew the deceased—was with her on March 7th from 5.30 to 6—I had a glass of ale with her in the Spencer Arms—I did not go with her to the Crooked Billet.
MARGARET GRAHAM . (Not examined in chief.)
Cross-examined. I live at 30, Hugget Street, Commercial Road—knew the deceased—I saw her on March 7th about 6.30—we went into the Crooked Billet and had a quartern of gin between three of us.
EMMA ELLEN NASH . (Not examined in chief.)
Cross-examined. I live at 9, Juniper Street, Shadwell—I was with the deceased on March 7th from about 6.30 to 7.30—we went into the Crooked Billet and had a quartern of gin—she did not" have anything to eat while with me.
ELLEN WHITE . I am the wife of George White, of 27, Lucas Street, commercial Road—we occupy the first floor back room—the prisoner his wife lived in the first floor front room—they had been there years—they had a jangle now and then, but not very often—I saw deceased once last summer after they had had a quarrel—her head's bleeding, and I took her to the hospital—on March 7th, between and 9 p.m., the deceased came into the house—she fell on the landing


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outside my door—I helped her into her own room and sat her in a chair by the head of the bed, so that her arm rested on the pillow—she was drunk, she could not walk without help, and her speech was rather thick—I lit the lamp in the room and put it on the table by the wall, and then went into my room—I stayed there about three minutes, and then went to Watney Street Market at 9.10 to purchase some things—the prisoner had not come in then—there were other people lodging in the house, but they had gone out.
Cross-examined. The prisoner and his wife were on very good terms when sober—they only quarrelled when they had been drinking—I have seen the deceased the worse for drink—on Friday, March 6th, I believe she went to a mission at the Catholic Chapel in the Commercial Road—I do not know where she was on Thursday, March 5th.
Re-examined. In the ordinary way she was a sober woman.
JULIA LEE . I am the tenant of 27, Lucas Street—two years ago last February I let the front first floor room to the prisoner and his wife—on March 7th, about 9.15, I was in my kitchen at the basement of the house—the prisoner came down to me and said, "I have done something, I believe I have done it"—I said, "What have you done"—he said, "Go upstairs and see"—I went upstairs and he followed me—I went into the room' and saw Mrs. Donovan lying on the floor with her head by the side of the bed and her feet towards the window—I saw a quantity of blood on the floor and told the prisoner to go quickly for a doctor—he did not return, and I went for Dr. Spurr and returned with him—the room was in the same condition as when I left it—it was not in confusion—when the prisoner spoke to me he seemed very excited.
Cross-examined. On March 7th I first saw him, about 4 p.m.—he appeared as if he had been drinking—he and his wife were very quiet and comfortable, when sober.
JOHN WILLIAM LYNCH . I am a registered medical practitioner of "372, Commercial Road—on March 7th, about 9.15 p.m., the prisoner came to my surgery and said, "I want you to come round with me to Lucas Street, as I have assaulted my wife; she' is losing a great deal of blood. "I said, "I cannot come with you, as I have three other cases that I am going to now, if it is anything urgent you had better go for someone else."—he said, "You mean you won't come"—I said, "It is not a matter of won't come, it is a matter of can't come. It is impossible for me to come with you"—he then went away.
Cross-examined. I considered him to be sober—I did not notice that his breath smelt of drink—he pressed me very hard to go and see his wife—I had never attended her.
FREDERICK SPURR . I am a registered medical practitioner of 427, Commercial Road—on March 7th, at 9.20 p.m., I was called to 27, Lucas Street—I went into the first floor front room, and saw the body of a woman lying on the floor dead—there was a quantity of blood on the floor—I examined her at the time, and found she had a punctured wound in the left side of her neck, behind the jaw and under the ear—I noticed the condition of the room at the time, and the position of the furniture


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agrees with the position shown on the plan—the room did not present the appearance of having been disturbed by a struggle—the body was lying with the head by the bed, and the feet extending towards the window—there was crockery upon a table in the middle of the room, also two table knives—I examined them—there was no sign of blood upon either—neither of them were rigid enough to inflict the wound—I sent for the police, and Inspector Holland and Dr. Grant, the Divisional surgeon, came—on March 9th, in the presence of Dr. Grant, I made a post-mortem examination of the body—I then found another wound on the right side of the head—its upper extremity was on a level with the top of the ear—the wound in the neck penetrated to the pharynx, and in its passage wounded the carotid artery—it was three inches deep, and was the cause of death—a considerable amount of force would be necessary to inflict the injuries—I saw no signs of a struggle on the body—I examined the stomach and liver, and found nothing abnormal; the organs were all perfectly healthy—there were no signs of chronic alcoholism.
Cross-examined. The stomach was almost empty—the condition in which I found the body at the post mortem was quite consistent with her having been intoxicated on the night of the 7th—hemorrhage was the primary cause of death—the wounds might have been caused by a worn table-knife used for cutting wood—the wound on the right side of the head at the back was more than a scratch, but it was not dangerous—the wound on the left of the neck could not have been caused by her falling against the knife if it was held in a person's hand behind her back, because its direction was from above downwards.
By the COURT. Neither wound could have been self-inflicted.
CHARLES GRAHAM GRANT . I am divisional surgeon to the H. Division of police—on March 7th I was called to 27, Lucas Street, about 10 p.m, where I saw the body of the deceased—I have heard the evidence of Dr. Spurr, and agree in a great measure with his evidence—about 11 p.m. the same night I saw the prisoner at the police station, he was intoxicated, but his answers were coherent, he understood what I said to him and replied in a defensive manner—his hands showed signs of having been recently washed—on March 8th his clothes were brought to me—I found three small red stains on the right shirt sleeve—I tested them, and believe them to be blood.
THOMAS WHITE (201 E.) Soon after 10 p.m. on March 7th, I was on duty in High Street, Shadwell—I received a description of a man who was wanted for stabbing his wife at 27, Lucas Street—about 10.30 I saw the prisoner in High Street—I arrested him, and told him he was wanted for a case of murder—I knew him by sight before—I did not tell him anything about the murder—I did not know who he had killed—he said, "Is that so?"—I took him to the station and searched him—no knife was found on him.
Cross—examined. He had been drinking heavily—he was not so very drunk, but he was drunk.
FREDERICK WHENSLEY (Detective Sergeant H.) I took charge of the prisoner when he was at Shadwell police station—I took a note in his


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presence of what he said to me—he volunteered all the statement—he said, "I know what I am here for, I am done; I shall be topped, I know that the job was a good one; she is gone, let her go easy. I know I have got to go through it; I shall not be a coward when it comes. They are looking for the knife; they will never find it. I threw it in the ditch, you know where I mean, the Thames."—I was present when he was charged next morning—he made no reply to the charge.
Cross-examined. He was not charged at all on the Saturday night—he was under the influence of drink, but he was not what I should term very much under the influence of drink.
JOHN HANDS (43 H.R.) On Sunday, March 8th, at 12 p.m., I was in charge of the prisoner in the cells—he said, "When did she die?"—I replied, "Last night"—he said, "I took up the knife, and I done it in the heat of passion"—I made my note at the time—at 7.40 p.m. the same day, he made a voluntary statement to me in the cell, he said, "This will be the death' of my poor old mother. That is what booze does for you. I went home boozed. She flew at me, I picked up the knife off' the table quick, and it was done in a minute. I did not mean to do what I have done. I threw the knife away afterwards."
Cross-examined. I did not see the prisoner when he was brought to the station.
GUILTY of manslaughter . Twenty-one previous convictions, several for assaults, were proved against him. Twelve years' penal servitude.

[Sam Flynn]

Should A.P. begin to place names, references, and subject matter that you as a reader would like to discuss, let Howard Brown or Tim Mosley know and either one of us will immediately establish a thread parallel and relative to this one
Just PM'ed you about one Timothy Donovan, Howard. Set up dat thread :)

[A.P. Wolf]

There is just so much in here, that even I might fail. On a quick search I have basically everything.
They have created a new search engine though, and I'm a virgin like everyone else, for about a day.

[Stan Reid]

Hi all,

When we talk about possible new suspects, are we just talking about individuals tried after the Whitechapel murders or who were put on trial before and acquitted? If we are also talking about those who were found guilty before JtR then is there any way to find out if they were released from prison before the murders started? I think one group could provide as good a suspect as the other.

Stan

[Debra Arif]

Cheers for this link AP!
Le Grand gossip galore on there, I've posted it to the Le Grand thread.

[Ali]

There is a great article from the BBC about the Old Bailey site
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7361701.stm
Love
Ali
xxx