David Cohen:The Polish Jewish Suspect ?

[How Brown]

Hopefully, Dr. Fido will elaborate at some point on his position regarding Cohen as the Polish Jewish suspect as opposed to Aaron Kosminski.

For those who missed Dr.Fido on the Sunday ( April 27th,2008) Rippercast program, be sure to do your best and listen to that episode.

www.rippernet.com (http://www.rippernet.com)

[A.P. Wolf]

I don't really keep up to date with suspects and theories, and all that, but I'd be interested to know whether David Cohen's father was in the tailoring or clothing trade?

[Martin Fido]

We know amazingly little about this man, and have no idea how the authorities were able to give name, age, address and occupation for a raving maniac with no known friends or relations who allegedly spoke German (Yiddish?)
We do know that a House of Lords committee on immigration in 1888 established that the Jewish community employed completely unskilled immigrant workers in tailoring and bootmaking sweatshops, rather than have them become a pauper expense to the parish. So there is always the possibility that if he did have nominal employment as a tailor, Cohen was really just an unskilled worker. (Equally Nathan Kaminsky may not have been a real bootmaker). I pointed out many years ago that IF Leather Apron (not being John Pizer) wished to get out of a leather apronned trade in a hurry because the heat was on for Jewish leather apronned workers, he would, assuming the H of Lords cttee was right, have been able to find immediate apron-free employment in a tailoring sweat shop. But obviously this is building speculation on speculation and isn't proof of anything: just a way of showing one possible interpretation of incomplete data that harmonizes with a theory arrived at on other grounds and would allow Nathan Kaminsky to be David Cohen.
All the best,
Martin F

[How Brown]

Dr. Fido:

What tips would you offer someone who would be interested in locating relatives of Cohen ? Yes, I am aware that that may not be his surname.

Do you remember...and I hope its not pressing your memory too much here...how many other men were in the institution at the time Cohen was in there?

You are still the only individual who has scoured the files to date, is that correct?

Thank you.

[Martin Fido]

I'll return to Cohen later (I'm marking final essays this weekend). But in the meantime, I don't know how or whether I can open a new thread: but this non-Cohenesque point might interest people, and I'm sure How will give it a proper home if he deems it worth it.

A student's essay I have just marked quotes from Newbell Puckett's Folk Beliefs of the Southern Negro (Montclair NJ: Patterson Smith. 1968) the following verse:

Did you ever see de devil wid his iron handled shovel,
A-scrapin up de san' in his ole tin pan?
He cuts up mighty funny, he steals all yo' money
He blinds you wid his san'. He's tryin' to git you, man.

The metrical and syntactical similarity of the first two lines to the verse ending the Openshaw Letter is striking, not to mention the identical first eight words. It might be just an extraordinary coincidence, but the possibiity that one of the hoax letter writers had heard this American folk rhyme seems to me more probable than that the Openshaw verses travelled to the cotton fields of Mississippi or Louisiana.
Another possibiity is that there was a range of popular doggerel rhymes starting "Did you ever see the devil, with his..." and going on to describing him as "A-doing" something" with something. I'd be interested to know if anyone has heard of any other
Martin Fido

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Martin, for I was just wondering whether this just might be him, and the fact that his father was sentenced to eight years for a few bits of old cloth might have been the start of a downward spiral in his life. Harsh times.
The whole saga seems to be based around the Minories.

'
THOMAS ENNESS, SAMUEL COHEN, CORNELIUS CAREY, Theft > stealing from master, 21st October 1878.

Reference Number: t18781021-862
Offence: Theft (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Crimes.jsp#theft) > stealing from master (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Crimes.jsp#stealingfrommaster)
Verdict: Guilty (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Verdicts.jsp#guilty) > pleaded guilty (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Verdicts.jsp#pleadedguilty); Guilty (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Verdicts.jsp#guilty) > other (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Verdicts.jsp#other)
Punishment: Imprisonment (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#imprisonment) > penal servitude (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#penalservitude); Imprisonment (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#imprisonment) > penal servitude (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#penalservitude); Imprisonment (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#imprisonment) > other (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Punishment.jsp#other)


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862. THOMAS ENNESS (25), SAMUEL COHEN (50), and CORNELIUS CAREY (37) , Stealing 5 yards of cloth of Edward Pritchard, the master of Enness, to which ENNESS PLEADED GUILTY .
MR. PURCELL conducted the Prosecution; and MR. MONTAGU WILLIAMS
defended Cohen.
ROBERT OUTRAM (City Detective Sergeant). In consequence of information I took Enness, and on Thursday, 19th September, I went to Carey's house in a court in the Minories—I told him I was a detective, and that he was charged with receiving two pieces of cloth on Saturday last, and I should take him in custody, and whatever he said would be given in evidence against him—he said "Me receiving cloth; I have not received cloth"—I took him to Cohen's cloth and trimming shop, and said to Cohen "I am a detective sergeant, and have come to see you respecting some cloth; do you know this man, Carey?"—he said "No;" he afterwards said "I think I have seen him about the neighbourhood"—Mr. Pritchard, who was with me, took two pieces of cloth from a heap, and said "These are the two pieces taken on Saturday last"—Carey said "I will tell the truth, I did have the two pieces of cloth, and sold them to him, and he gave me 12s. for them"—I said "You hear what this man says"—Cohen said "12s.; I gave you more than that"—Mr. Pritchard said "I can swear to this, and this," as he took different pieces down—Cohen said "I will not doubt your word; if you say they are the goods, take them, it is no use kicking up a fuss"—Carey said "I will tell you the truth, I have had about eight pieces of cloth, and sold them to you"—I asked Cohen if he had any invoice or books to show from whom he purchased them—he said "No; being no scholar I don't trouble about invoices or books"—on another occasion I searched and found about 30 bundles, 104 pieces in all, in Cohen's shop.
Cross-examined. It is what they call a piece shop—the prosecutor was doubtful about some short pieces.
EDWARD PRITCHARD . I am a tailor of Fenchurch Street—Carey has been in my employment 14 years as a workman—it was not bis duty to take any lengths of cloth from my shop, only cloth cut up for garments—I have been


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missing cloth some time, and I found that my stock had been disturbed and gave information—I afterwards went to Cohen's shop in Whitechapel, and saw two rolls of cloth, and recognised one roll which I had missed on Saturday—I also found a quantity of other property which I identified—some of it bears numbers wove in, which I swear to, as my invoices from the manufacturer bear the same numbers—the value of what I found in Cohen's shop is 50l. or 60l., but my loss has been about 800l.
Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. The value of the numbered pieces is close upon 2l.—I identify the others by the patterns—I do not say that those patterns are not made for other people—I could not have sworn to them if I had found them at Nicolls's or Moses's the tailors, but I missed lengths, quality, and patterns similar to what I found—brokers deal in remnants—a proper piece-broker would not buy at cloth sales—I have no doubt that all these goods are mine—I never expressed any doubt othe officer.
Re-examined. They are not remnants, the smallest length found on the premises is two yards.
WILLIAM SIMMONDS . I am housekeeper at the house where Mr. Pritchaid's shop is—I have seen Carey and Enness going to and fro for four years, and generally before 9 o'clock, when nobody but Enness would be here.
Cross-examined by Carey. I have sometimes seen you there three or four times a week of a morning.
THOMAS ENNESS . (The Prisoner). I have been 11 years porter and collector to Mr. Pritchard—1. have pleaded guilty to stealing 2 bundles of cloth on Saturday, the 14th—I gave them to Carey, who was also in the employ—I did not tell him what to do with it, but he would dispose of it—I do not know Cohen, I have never spoken to him—I have given trousers lengths of cloth to Carey many times, and he disposed of them, and generally gave me. 3s. for six yards—(Seven large bundles of cloth were handed to the witness, from which he selected 102pieces)—I identify these as what I gave to Carey or his little boy—I usually gave them to Carey on a Saturday, about 9 a.m.—he sometimes had business to come as early as that when a job was wanted particularly—I was alone on the premises at that time.
Cross-examined by MR. WILLIAMS. I identify the whole of this property As my master's—it was taken away in a wrapper, and about 100 times—this represents as near as possible the whole of the property I stole from my master—I have not stolen 900l. worth.
Cross-examined by Carey. I gave you or William all those parcels,' not every Saturday morning, there might be a fortnight or three weeks intervened—I have seen you there in the morning when you have been at work-all night, but your son has come in and I have given him a parcel—he knew what to do with it—I have not told him to bring the parcel to a certain place and bring me the money—you have not told me you would tell Mr. Pritchard, nor have I promised not to do such a thing again.
Re-examined. Carey has given me money on a great many occasions.
Witnesses for Cohen.
LIPMAN LAVINE . I am traveller to D. Hyam, a wholesale clothier, and was very nearly seven years a piece-broker—piece-brokers buy remnants from eight to fifteen yards long—there is no way of identifying cloth except by the marks, unless it is a particular mark—travelers in the woollen trade call upon nearly every tailor, and supply them with goods of this description—remnants are purchased at greatly reduced prices.


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Cross-examined. I was not called at the police-court—I call these pieces remnants—piece-brokers buy what the hollowings of trousers are cut from;they are long enough to make waistcoats.
HYAM BARNETT . I have dealt in clothes thirty years, and buy of everybody—I have sold goods to Cohen from time to time for fifteen or twenty years: remnants sometimes of two yards, and sometimes ten—five or ten yards are only remnants, but I have bought rolls of master tailors at the close of the season—I have known Cohen twenty years; he is a very respectable man,
Cross-examined. Twenty yards is a remnant; we consider everything a remnant except a whole piece.
SYMONS. I live at 51, Hampstead Road, and am in the habit of buying travellers' job lots of cloth and remnants, sometimes under half the original price—I have known Cohen all my life; he is an honest, respectable man.
Cross-examined. Five or ten yards is a remnant; Icannot say whether twenty yards would be.
DAVID COHEN . I am the prisoner's son—I recollect Carey bringing him two pieces of cloth—my father gave me 22s. to pay him—that was on the Saturday before he was apprehended.
HENRY HYAMS . I am a clothier and job woollen buyer, of Bow Road—I bay cloth at auctions, and sell remnants to piece-brokers—I have sold remnants to Cohen at times—I call ten yards a remnant; under that would be more unsaleable—remnants are purchased at very much less than the price per piece.
GEORGE BRADMAN . I am a tailor, of Chapel Place, Belgrave Square—I purchase remnants from piece-brokers, sufficiently long to make a pair of trousers or a coat, to the length of two yards.
Cross-examined. I should not call ten yards a remnant.
Cohen received a good character.
Carey's Defence. What Mr. Cohen's son has stated is false. He says he gave me the money on that Saturday, but he never went there at all My little boy, not 9 years old, went into the shop with a ticket of a waistcoat to Enness, who gave him a parcel, and the boy took him back the money.
GUILTY .—COHEN —Eight Years' Penal Servitude . CAREY— Five Years' Penal Servitude . ENNESS— Two Year's Imprisonment .'

[Robert Linford]

That's a striking similarity, Martin.

This is from http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/U.htm :

Did you ever see the devil with his wooden spade or shovel,
Did you ever see the devil with his tail cocked out?
The potatoes were so big that the devil couldn’t dig,
So he ran through the fields with his tail cocked out!


Robert

[Sam Flynn]

I'll return to Cohen later (I'm marking final essays this weekend). But in the meantime, I don't know how or whether I can open a new thread: but this non-Cohenesque point might interest peopleHello Martin,

I've posted some bumf over on Casebook that you (and others) may find interesting - including the possible "tune" of the Openshaw Letter. All together now: "Ooooooooh, have you seen...."

[How Brown]

Thanks for sharing these finds, Dr. Fido and Robert !!

[Caroline Morris]

It might be just an extraordinary coincidence, but the possibiity that one of the hoax letter writers had heard this American folk rhyme seems to me more probable than that the Openshaw verses travelled to the cotton fields of Mississippi or Louisiana.
Another possibiity is that there was a range of popular doggerel rhymes starting "Did you ever see the devil, with his..." and going on to describing him as "A-doing" something" with something. I'd be interested to know if anyone has heard of any other
Martin Fido

Hi Martin,

It does seem that there was more than just one source that could have inspired the sender of the funny little Openshaw verse.

Just as well, otherwise some silly person might have taken this letter seriously and imagined that the sender must have had occasion to travel to those cotton fields on business. :eek:

Love,

Caz
X

[Stan Russo]

Martin,

How are you? Long time no talk. Hope all is well.

Now down to business - how can you rationalize David Cohen having been JTR, within the Andersonian Jewish suspect theory, when he was confined to an asylum/workhouse/prison, in December of 1888, yet in July of 1889, Dr. Bond was specifically brought in by Robert Anderson to confirm or deny that the murder of Alice McKenzie may have been the work of JTR?

If Cohen was JTR, under the Andersonian Jewish suspect theory, then Anderson would have known he was incacerated during the time of the McKenzie murder, thus the necessity for bringing in Dr. Bond does not exist. I cannot seem to find a way out of this theory destroying paradox.

[String]

Apart from being insane are there any more medical records of this man?

[How Brown]

Dear String

Unless I missed something, I believe Dr. Fido mentioned that what he was able to obtain is the extent of what we have now.

[Nemo]

This may seem an obvious question, but, has Aaron Kosminski been searched for in asylum records under his alias of "Abrahams"?

I seem to remember that Martin checked for all "Jewish names" in the records - but did he connect an Abraham with Kosminski?

[How Brown]

Good question,Nemo old bean....and I for one am not sure. We had him on a podcast last year...and sure could have used that question at the time.

Maybe someone should ask the man that question.

[Scott Nelson]

I believe Rob House, and later Rob Clack made a search for "Abrahams" in the asylum records, but found no "Aaron Abrahams".

[How Brown]

Scott Nelson to the rescue. Thanks Scott !

[Nemo]

What about "David Abrahams"? - lol

No, I'll trust their research - I'm sure they know what they are doing

I'm not 100% convinced that Aaron is THE Kosminsky but if the scenario in "Scotland Yard Investigates" by Mr Evans regarding the Cutbush ID is near the truth, then that would indicate to me that Aaron is the one referred to in error by Swanson/Anderson as the suspect at the Seaside Home.