Openshaw Letter- Similarities & Curiosities

[Howard Brown]

Openshaw Letter

I'll return to Cohen later (I'm marking final essays this weekend). But in the meantime, I don't know how or whether I can open a new thread: but this non-Cohenesque point might interest people, and I'm sure How will give it a proper home if he deems it worth it.

A student's essay I have just marked quotes from Newbell Puckett's Folk Beliefs of the Southern Negro (Montclair NJ: Patterson Smith. 1968) the following verse:

Did you ever see de devil wid his iron handled shovel,
A-scrapin up de san' in his ole tin pan?
He cuts up mighty funny, he steals all yo' money
He blinds you wid his san'. He's tryin' to git you, man.

The metrical and syntactical similarity of the first two lines to the verse ending the Openshaw Letter is striking, not to mention the identical first eight words. It might be just an extraordinary coincidence, but the possibiity that one of the hoax letter writers had heard this American folk rhyme seems to me more probable than that the Openshaw verses travelled to the cotton fields of Mississippi or Louisiana.
Another possibiity is that there was a range of popular doggerel rhymes starting "Did you ever see the devil, with his..." and going on to describing him as "A-doing" something" with something. I'd be interested to know if anyone has heard of any other

Martin Fido
************************
That's a striking similarity, Martin.

This is from <http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/U.htm> :

Did you ever see the devil with his wooden spade or shovel,
Did you ever see the devil with his tail cocked out?
The potatoes were so big that the devil couldn’t dig,
So he ran through the fields with his tail cocked out!


Robert Chazz Linford

[Chris G.]

Yes but folk stories and ballads, just like music, travel. The story of the devil in this type of rhyme probably predates the negro rhyme quoted here, and more likely had English or European origins.

Chris

[Sam Flynn]

Re that potato-pickin' ditty, called the "Upper Denton Hornpipe", attributed to Scotland but possibly Northumbrian, here's the music:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/upper-denton-hornpipe.jpg

I made a recording of it (using a midi-synthesiser) and stuck it on Casebook. In case no-one's heard it, you may do so by clicking here (http://www.btinternet.com/~gareth.h.williams/sounds/upperdenton.mp3).

A toe-tapper, for sure. Enjoy!

[Howard Brown]

Sam:

That was awful nice of you to put that together. Did YOU actually play that score? I tried to play it on my grandson's Fender Strat a couple of minutes ago, but I ain't Julian Bream, so I hadda stick to playing chords.

Oh,Didja ever hear Howie's neighbor..
With his poundin' on HB's door ?
HB thinks its just the landlord
And he probably wants some more...

But the Landlord's got other plans
For this fingerpickin' man...
With a shotgun on his shoulder
and an eviction notice in his hand !!

[Mike Covell]

Sam I am impressed, do you take bookings?

[Howard Brown]

Mike:

Whattabout me? I keep jamming at 7 AM on a Sunday with a Fender Strat...the most powerful handgun known to man and could blow your head clean off....and I'll NEED a booking to find a new flat !

[Sam Flynn]

Sam:

That was awful nice of you to put that together. Did YOU actually play that score?Not as such, How, although I did give myself tennis-elbow by laboriously inputting the notes into the software. I also added some dynamic phrasing here and there, so you could say I "interpreted" it, at least to the extent that the software allows.

If I have time, I might add a drum-track to give it the full "Riverdance" effect ;)

[Sam Flynn]

Sam I am impressed, do you take bookings?...only when I park the car ;)

[Mike Covell]

"Tonight on Britain's Got Talent Sam Flynn with his Synth!!"

[Howard Brown]

Sammy:

I've got a violin or two that I could provide to the score.:)

[Mike Covell]

I recieved a grade 7 for my work on percussion, and was a lead drummer for a marching band. Needed 1 more grade to reach "Teaching Level" then I discovered the opposite sex.

It's been downhill ever since:tape:

[Sam Flynn]

I recieved a grade 7 for my work on percussion, and was a lead drummer for a marching band. Needed 1 more grade to reach "Teaching Level" then I discovered the opposite sex.I thought percussion was the opposite sex. It goes "boom-diddy-boom-diddy-boom-diddy-boom..."

[Mike Covell]

The opposite sex for me sounds more like a room full of Crash Cymbals!


TTTTTSSSSSSSSHHHHHHH
:faint:

[Sam Flynn]

The opposite sex for me sounds more like a room full of Crash Cymbals!That'd be "sex cymbals", then ;) Not forgetting the "love triangle", of course...

[Mike Covell]

That'd be "sex cymbals", then ;) Not forgetting the "love triangle", of course...

and the bass bum!

[Sam Flynn]

and the bass bum!
Oo-er! I actually meant "love triangle" as in "having an affair", but there's clearly a baser ("basser"?) interpretation ;)

[Chris G.]

Sam:

That was awful nice of you to put that together. Did YOU actually play that score? I tried to play it on my grandson's Fender Strat a couple of minutes ago, but I ain't Julian Bream, so I hadda stick to playing chords.

Oh,Didja ever hear Howie's neighbor..
With his poundin' on HB's door ?
HB thinks its just the landlord
And he probably wants some more...

But the Landlord's got other plans
For this fingerpickin' man...
With a shotgun on his shoulder
and an eviction notice in his hand !!


Hi Howie

More likely Jim Beam than Julian Bream. :thumbsupbud:

Chris

[A.P. Wolf]

Well, I'm glad that is over.
So I'd like to hear from folks here how many people in 1888 knew that to view something on, or in, a microscope, that one required a 'slide'?

[Howard Brown]

Dear A.P.

I went and opened up my 1913 Webster's Dictionary ( the word "zipper" does not appear, so you know that its an oldie...) and the word slide does refer to a plate of glass to examine objects under a microscope. This of course is an American-English dictionary.

I had a hunch where you might be going with your question here....but instead of guessing and falling flat on my face, let me ask you whether or not you are of the opinion that the rank and file Brit would NOT use the term "slide" as is mentioned inthe Openshaw letter and quite possibly that there is something academic in tone to the letter?
*******************************

I'm not aware of whether you saw ( as an aside ) the newspaper account I found of the Univ. of Pa. ( An Ivy League school,no less) medical students who were placing body parts in sections of West Philadelphia a decade before the Lusk Letter was born to scare the locals. Its under the "News From Philadelphia" thread and is pretty intriguing.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks How
Well my opinion is that only someone with a serious interest in medical subjects would carry such knowledge in 1888, but that doesn't mean to say a professional interest. For I can think of one suspect who spent years studying such subjects, and informed people that he was a medical student, though he wasn't.
Curious isn't it?

Even stranger though, How, is the weird fact that 19 days before Openshaw received his curious little letter, another writer using the name 'Jack the Ripper' had sent a letter to the police beginning with a pasted and printed newspaper clipping declaring 'Have you seen the Devil'.
The exact words of the Openshaw letter.
Now what are the chances of that, my dear fellow?

[Howard Brown]

A.P.

The Openshaw Letter was recieved on the 29th...and the following is the letter you are referring to ( reprinted for those who haven't seen this letter) which was received or marked October 10th,1888:

HAVE YOU SEEN THE "DEVIL"
If not

Pay one Penny & Walk in-side

Dear Boss: I am Waiting every evening for the coppers at Hampstead heath.

You will find tow or three of them goone before this week is ended I am lodging in Scratchem Park now the number I shall not tell you I mean Litchin st I Remain .......yours Jack The Ripper/

Hampstead
Oct.10/10/88
Dear Boss

I am waiting

[Howard Brown]

A.P.

Both of the letters mention "coppers".

It does seem more than coincidental doesn't it?

Neither letter was presented for public view,were they A.P. ? That both mentioned "coppers" ( not a unique thing in itself ) AND the reference to the Devil, in the manner it was mentioned, is very intriguing....and more than a little coincidental to me.

Edited since I forgot to mention more than coincidental. My mistake,A.P. !!!

[A.P. Wolf]

Indeed, How.
Most seem to seek connective tissue by comparing the handwriting in these 'letters from hell', but I prefer to compare content and format, as handwriting can be easily disguised, by mood, by design, by alcohol or drugs, and by simple madness.
There is an obvious - and sometimes even admitted - attempt to disguise the handwriting in many of the letters, so one must be cautious with comparisons.
Here I think we deal with a situation that is far outside the realms of coincidence, in that as you say, the letter writer of each of these letters would have been at the time unaware of the contents of the other letter, unless they of course wrote both themselves.
But this situation does provide the 17th September letter with a degree of reality, in that it is entirely possible to find letters that use entire expressions found in other letters, which have only been available to view in recent years.

[Dan Norder]

how many people in 1888 knew that to view something on, or in, a microscope, that one required a 'slide'?

Hold on, let me go count...

Is this question even for real? Come on, it's bad enough when people claim that aliens must have built the pyramids because people back then were too stupid to do so themselves, but we're talking just 120 years ago here.

Anyone who ever read a newspaper (or talked with someone who had read a paper) to hear that a microscope was used to look at the Lusk kidney would have either already known slides were used or at that point easily go read a paper or book (or talk to someone who had) to know that a slide was used in the process. So 100% of the people who could have written the Openshaw letter would have either already known that fact or could have found it with no appreciable effort.

[A.P. Wolf]

Dan
in the period 1886 through to 1889 the term 'microscopic slide' is only used once in the entire archives of 'The Times'.
This runs to millions of press reports.
I'm not sure how many press reports the Casebook site presently holds?
But in the entire archive there is only one report where the same term is applied.
I hop dat yu now dat sum of pipple in lundun culd not rite or reed?

[Sam Flynn]

Dan
in the period 1886 through to 1889 the term 'microscopic slide' is only used once in the entire archives of 'The Times'.Be fair, AP - the phrase only appears on 5 occasions between 1854 and 1930, an average of once every 15 years. Are we to believe that, in a span of over three-quarters of a century nobody, apart from Times readers or the select few, had heard of glass slides or mikerscopes? This, at a time of discovery and invention, and arguably the golden age of amateur botany, entomology. A golden age, certainly, for public museums and public exhibitions. This was also at a time of large-scale outbreaks of disease among the poor, with and concomitant improvements in medical science, and hospitals to treat them - in short, when the first glimmerings of the modern public health service were beginning to appear. In such a climate, one did not need access to those scant reports in the Times, in order to learn of such things as microscopic slides.

[A.P. Wolf]

Sam
to be honest with you I would estimate that 99% of Whitechapel's population only knew a 'slide' in connection with a slippery slope.
You boys are supremely 'aving a good laugh.

American with tall moustache and yellow spats:
'I'll have a dollar of your blackest black grapes, old man, just wrap them in the copy of the Lancet you have there on yout stall, old man, the unfortunate will spit the pips out later.'
'Very good, sir, very good, ' replies Packer, and then: 'Cor blimey, sir, 'ave you seen this story in the Lancet concerning the microscopic slide that Dr Openshaw examined at the opital where 'e was able to find live microbes aliving in a swamp in Wales?!'
'So there is life in that county then?' asks the tall moustache with white dogs and American cloth bound to his transatlantic liner.
'The Lancet says it is a country,' replies Packer to the loud report of a Colt 45.
'It was a sexually motivated crime,' explained Inspector Le Grande of the backyard. 'The grapes were obviously inserted into the victim's mouth where she swallowed them and eventually they came out of her arse... need I say more?'

[Howard Brown]

So 100% of the people who could have written the Openshaw letter would have either already known that fact or could have found it with no appreciable effort. -Dan

The point I believe A.P. was trying to make ( and correct me if I am wrong,A.P.) is that the Openshaw letter was written by someone aware of the use of a glass (known as a slide) and a microscope by a medical examiner,doctor,pathologist,etc. in their work...,hinting that it wasn't written by some lowbrow yutz who just wanted to hassle Openshaw with doggerel but rather someone with a little bit o' wit to him...or her, about the kidney.

[Dan Norder]

I hop dat yu now dat sum of pipple in lundun culd not rite or reed?

And what percentage of those people do you suppose are possible candidates for having written the Openshaw letter? That's right, none.

Anyone who did write that obviously could read and write and obviously could also have read up on microscopes before writing it, assuming that he or she didn't already know about slides, and assuming that he or she just didn't ask a friend who knew.

[A.P. Wolf]

That's actually quite funny, Dan.
So it must have been someone from a well educated middle class family who read medical textbooks.
You should write an article 'pon your conclusion.
I already did the book, but you guys deserve a wag.

[Debbie D]

but I prefer to compare content and format, as handwriting can be easily disguised, by mood, by design, by alcohol or drugs, and by simple madness.

Yes, content and format are important pieces to the puzzle.
One can disguise, drink, and dope one's self up all one wants BUT certain unmistakeable, personal traits will always appear. No matter how minute they may be. I don't care how good a forgerer you are or how many pills you've popped. Personal traits will always be there.:playball:

[Dan Norder]

So it must have been someone from a well educated middle class family who read medical textbooks.

Or any person of any class who could read a newspaper, a work of fiction that mentioned microscopes, or a dictionary.

Which would, again, be anyone who could read, and we already knew that the person who wrote that letter was literate, as it's kind of a prerequisite for having written the letter.

[A.P. Wolf]

Hey Dan, read this and then still tell me that you think the writer of such a letter in the LVP would know that a microscope needed a slide?
And then tell me what crime you think the writer of the letter committed?

'Read: "No. 1. August. 9th, 1884. July 18th 1883. Hannah Harris in my absence stole 10 Pounds, my little Boy fred, and goods, table covers table cloths knives and forks spoons China carpt orments close Baskets babys Basket and clothe suite of my black and White Shirt, Perambalate to come up To London To marry my daughter and bee a compaion for her in that noted Praed Street for six months, her told all nay Customers I was going to Be sold up and her what coming up To London as a Wide witch her 2 did and left me and my Little Children in disgrace—about the middle of September I found out where her was and I rote to her and told her To come back or elce I should sell the Home up—my answer when I wham To sell the Home up—her did not want to see me nor the Home again—her got drunk twice a day Before her went away. I told Mrs. Cotton to To let her have the Beer. But her Let her have it—my son george took To the children and I paid him for them as I was Bound to sell the Home up. What my little children Whants—know then I went to America To see my Brothers and then came Back I went and seen the children and Bought them some Bots and put them Strait—on the 16th January 84 I wrote to her respecting the children and gave her a week To answer it in. on the morrow I had a Letter To come and see her, I went like a sheep To the slaughter, my Friends told me my fortune Before I went. But I went for the sake of my children. When I got there my Little daughter Lizza wham there her said I have ginn Lizz my Box as her have not got one. She wham in service—from my sons will went to Live in Queens park that night things went on all right I furnished the house nicely they had no money clothe nor goods—my daughter allowed my little Boy to come and see me once a day I kept my children for a month to pleas them at my sons, I then sent for them and my furniture But the children whas a trouble to my daughter as her thought her had lost her mother
See original (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=188409150036) http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/i/genericThumb.jpg (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=188409150036)
her said to her mother this is not like Tale St. is it then; her when out To work To annoy me I whanted her To go into some place of Business But no her would not lave her daughter so one morning I went home I found my all my rooms Partly unfurnished and took up stairs in my son in Laws rooms I then went To the first Brokers in the Harrow road and asked To come and take a invatare of what was there and he did—I called my daughter and asked her if her in is Presence would Bring the things down stairs, her said not without a Ploceman I asked my Wife if her Whas going to Bring the goods Back, her said no her hated the sight of little children—in a few nights after when her come home work my daughter came To the top of the Stairs and said mother you can come up here and have your supper, her said I shant till Harry comes home. I got up I said you had better go now and her whent, I sit in the kitchen till I heard her Locked in then I went to my Bed. I did not say a word next night when her came home my daughter answered the door her Pretended To Be talkin To Some one at the door Whilste my Wife whas creeping up stairs When it came Bedtime I walked up stain and knocked at the door, I whas lett in, I then you are there, my daughter rushed down stairs and fetched a Ploceman he ordered my wife To go To her own Bed, her went and me When I got there ther whas no sheets nor Pillow cases on the bed, I talked rather Loud To her about them, her jumped out of Bed and fetched a Ploceman, I told the Ploceman if he wanted a Job he could fetch my sheets and pillow cases. But he was senseble he went away. On the morrow her went and got a summons for me, her said I had sold my home up and up here Liveing on it, her said I had Been convicted 3 times and I Pulled her out of Bed which I did not allow my flesh To touch her, I whas never convicted nor the Couse of selling my home up When I came out of Prison I whent away. When I was in Prison her rut my children on the Parish and my son in law allowed the Little Boy to bee on the Parish. I hope you Will Punish him for it as he as kept the child till about 9 days ago When he whas sent To me half-starved and no close nor Boots When he Left me he was a fine Boy that ever the sun Shone on I Put him To school Before 12 month old But he has not Being since he has Being up here. I Hope the Lord will have mercy on them. There is 17s. owen at Chambers for washing 9 Cornvile manshions Witecar about 12. give this To my children. 15 Wilton Place. Lett my sister knowe. Mrs. Kemp, 27 Wilton Road W., Shepherds Bush, London."

[A.P. Wolf]

As Dan is mute, I'll continue.
I'm sure Sam must have noticed the peculiar method that the writer of the Openshaw letter had of placing the cross bar of his 't's' right into the next letter, as in 'with', 'another', 'throat' and 'the' and 'the'.
That seems to indicate that the writer was not attempting to disguise their handwriting. For it is a habitual thing.
Am I also not right in thinking that this peculiar style is also evident in the 17th September 1888 letter?

[Sam Flynn]

That seems to indicate that the writer was not attempting to disguise their handwriting. For it is a habitual thing....it's also rather common, AP, and not peculiar at all. Besides, the way the "Ts" are written in both letters are markedly different. As is the rest of the handwriting - whether disguised, partly disguised or not.

[Debbie D]

As Dan is mute, I'll continue.
I'm sure Sam must have noticed the peculiar method that the writer of the Openshaw letter had of placing the cross bar of his 't's' right into the next letter, as in 'with', 'another', 'throat' and 'the' and 'the'.
That seems to indicate that the writer was not attempting to disguise their handwriting. For it is a habitual thing.
Am I also not right in thinking that this peculiar style is also evident in the 17th September 1888 letter?

There's an old saying about not being able to see the forest for the trees... I believe that is what has happened here.:playball:

[A.P. Wolf]

Sam
do you honestly expect me to run with the idea that someone who was obscuring their handwriting would deliberately place the cross bar of their 't' right through the next letter in every single instance?
My thrust here is unconcerned with comparison, rather my concern is that the writer of the Openshaw was not disguising their handwriting.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello AP,My thrust here is unconcerned with comparison, rather my concern is that the writer of the Openshaw was not disguising their handwriting.Well... OK, but if your purpose was merely to comment on the "undisguised" nature of the Openshaw (or at least, the letters "t" therein), why bring 17th September into it? Whether genuine or hoax, I think it's fair to say that if any letter reeks of deliberately disguised handwriting, it's our old friend "Sept 17th".

[A.P. Wolf]

Is it not true to suggest, Sam, that a person in the grips of some tremendous and profound experience - like mercury poisoning; or even drinking spirit of wines - might well produce handwriting that could be unwittingly described as 'deliberately disguised handwriting'?

[Sam Flynn]

Is it not true to suggest, Sam, that a person in the grips of some tremendous and profound experience - like mercury poisoning; or even drinking spirit of wines - might well produce handwriting that could be unwittingly described as 'deliberately disguised handwriting'?I confess to being a little lost now, AP. I thought your point was that the Openshaw writer hadn't deliberately disguised his writing - or at least not his letters "t"?

[A.P. Wolf]

Indeed, Sam, and similarly the writer of the 17th September 1888 letter may not have been disguising his handwriting but merely writing under the influence of some powerful chemical delusion.
A mind altering substance would by its very nature alter our ability to communicate with the outside world, in any form or manner... our efforts would become chaotic... nicht whar?

[Sam Flynn]

Indeed, Sam, and similarly the writer of the 17th September 1888 letter may not have been disguising his handwriting but merely writing under the influence of some powerful chemical delusion.The spidery scrawl of the 17th September letter is so obviously forced that I doubt any chemical substances were involved at all - apart from those in the ink, of course, and maybe a can of lager or two. If the 17th Sept letter was written at the time I believe it to have been, the beer would've cost roughly 68p per can at the local Tesco - a fairly cheap trick, if so.

[Debbie D]

The spidery scrawl of the 17th September letter is so obviously forced that I doubt any chemical substances were involved at all - apart from those in the ink, of course, and maybe a can of lager or two. If the 17th Sept letter was written at the time I believe it to have been, the beer would've cost roughly 68p per can at the local Tesco - a fairly cheap trick, if so.

AP,
Sam is right on track.:kiss:
The thing to remember is that the 17th September letter is like DB in the sense that both mimic copperplate calligraphy. It can be very slow and difficult at times to produce the letters. While the letter formations are not perfect to the copperplate standard, they are well formed. If one were under the influence of an intoxicating substance the writer could not have done such a good job of forming their letters. People using chemical substances including booze, will show certain traits. This doesn't exhibit those traits. Now that's not to say that the writer wasn't experiencing some sort of psychological strain at the time it was written.:der:

[Dan Norder]

As Dan is mute

I just have better things to do than argue over something so patently absurd.

[A.P. Wolf]

I thought this letter in The Times of October 4th 1888 may well have prompted the Openshaw letter:

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/editor1.jpg