View Full Version : I found this bloke...
05-05-2008, 01:59 PM
who murders three people, cuts 'em up into bits and pieces, attempts to dump them under some railway arches in sacks, then buries 'em in a garden because he is frightened of being caught without a light at night by the police in his pony and trap. He drives around Whitechapel with the bodies, Aldgate etc; he has a connection with the 'Working Man's Home' on Commercial Street.
And when sentenced to death by hanging at the Old Bailey he said:
"Now get on with it as quick as you like."
05-05-2008, 02:14 PM
Is there a punchline?
What was the date of this dodgy chap with a horse and trap?
05-05-2008, 02:33 PM
Is there a punchline?
What was the date of this dodgy chap with a horse and trap?
...it might help if we had his name, too!
AP: you little tease.
05-05-2008, 03:00 PM
I sniff an eighteenth century miscreant not 1888.....
05-05-2008, 03:16 PM
I sniff an eighteenth century miscreant not 1888.....Maybe not 1888 - but "The Victoria Home"???
05-05-2008, 03:43 PM
I know, I'm just an old internet tart.
The case was heard in 1903, amongst his many other aliases he was called Edgar Edwards.
Read it and enjoy.
Just this one little bit is probably one of the best things I have ever read in connection with the activities of killers.
And even better the police doctor was Dr Jekyll.
Cross-examined. I should imagine that the attack on these unfortunate people was a very ferocious one—I have given evidence in a large number of legal cases—we group the predisposing causes of insanity into mental and moral ones—heredity and stress may be predisposing causes, but I do not think you can bring them all into two groups—there are very many types of insanity—if on the maternal side of a family you can trace insanity for some time past, that might be a predisposing cause to insanity in an individual, but I should require to know the extent of it if I was reporting to an Asylum—if it began with the prisoner's grandfather's sister, and was traced to the brother of the prisoner's mother, and then to two or three of the prisoner's nieces, that would be a close connection of insanity in the family—if I had to report on a case like that, I should report that those were possibly predisposing causes—if it was undoubted insanity, and radiated to nieces and sisters in a collateral way, it would be stronger than missing a generation—if there is a depression at the back of the prisoner's head which was the result of an accident some years ago, it might come under the head of stress, but—I cannot say without examining it—
See original (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=190302090050) http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/i/genericThumb.jpg (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=190302090050)
if there was a depressed fracture of the skull, that might be so; assuming that to be so, the thickening of the bone might lead to atrophy of brain—pressure of the brain might possibly lead to insanity, which you might discover by symptoms, or the X Rays—I do not think you could discover it by touch or feeling—insanity sometimes skips a generation—I know the facts of this case; from my experience, I should not say that many of the acts in it are those of a person of unsound mind—I do not know that I should consider the weapon with which the murder was committed is a very extraordinary one—it is a very effective one—I should think a weapon of this kind is a very easy thing to obtain, as they are to be found in every house—I cannot say that I have ever heard of a sash-weight having been used before for such a crime—looking at the case from an ordinary point of view, one would say that to commit these wholesale murders would be scarcely worth the while—I should not say that the doing of it is an indication of insanity—I have been connected with similar cases, where over-anxiety about detection has not been noticed in persons who were described as sane, and who were never found to be to the contrary; in those cases insanity was set up as a defence, but two of them were not successful—a sane person is not always over anxious, it depends on temperament, many people are callous without being insane—I do not think it is an indication of insanity to commit wholesale murder, there is no reason why a man who does so should not be insane, but I should like to know the facts of the case before I decided—it is decidedly exceptional to meet with a case of wholesale murder—I can recollect a case in which there were two murders committed, but never three in my personal experience—it is very common in cases of insanity, for an insane person to be controlled and influenced by the same motives which actuate persons who are sane, but 99 per cent of the cases of insanity are not insane altogether, they have got many sane sides—violent impulses to acts of murder or homicidal attacks may be dormant in an individual for a long time without showing outside expression—a person may not show to the outside world evidence of the conflict going on inside his mind, and there may not be any such conflict—those people may have uncontrollable destructive impulses, but whether the person knows' the difference between right and wrong at the time is the debatable point—there are some eminent medical men who hold that insane persons may commit an act knowing it to be wrong, but are unable to control the impulse to commit it—there are some cases in which the act itself is the chief evidence of mental disorder in the individual—in the majority of eases of homicidal mania, the person who commits the act does not seek to obliterate all traces of the crime, they are quite indifferent to the traces—my experience of criminals is that indifference as to concealing the act is a characteristic of insanity—I should say that in the majority of undoubted cases of insanity persons are indifferent as to obliterating traces of the crime when acts of this sort are committed—persons do not always show great calmness, but they do show absence of fear; they sometimes show great cunning and ingenuity, but at the same time they may be quite indifferent in effecting concealment and indifferent to the number of lives they take—I do not say that that is evidence of insanity,
See original (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=190302090051) http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/i/genericThumb.jpg (http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/images.jsp?doc=190302090051)
but it is a frequent consequence; it is more likely to be associated with an unsound mind than with a sound one—I should say it is probably the case that an insane person committing a murder would not have accomplices, however colossal the scheme may be—an insane person suffering from a homicidal paroxysm might kill any number of persons, but so might a sane person—I do not say he would do so without a motive—I cannot say what is sufficient motive—a sane person committing an act which might forfeit his life, might not have a sufficient motive—I have known a few pounds be sufficient motive, and where there was no evidence of insanity; both the cases I was thinking of were murders done in trains, I believe both on the Brighton line: the murderer might not know the amount of money the victim had, but a person probably would not be carrying much money—I believe one was in a first class carriage.
Re-examined. Homicidal uncontrollable impulses are generally sudden—a person who is subject to them would not lay his plans some time before-hand—the plans would of course be just as suddenly arranged as the act—I have not examined the prisoner or his family history.'
05-05-2008, 04:27 PM
March 29, 1903.
Severino Klosowski is occupying the cell in which the late Mr. Edgar Edwards spent his last days. Edwards, when he was awaiting trial, was very interested in the Chapman case. His remark to a warder, who had told him the latest evidence at the police-court, was "He is a hot 'un, ain't he?"
Interesting that Edgar Edwards split from his wife in early 1888, and that he then travelled to London to iniate court action to salvage what he could from their grocers shop in Cardiff. It must have been about this time that he met the witness from the 'Victoria Home' who in 1903 stated that he had known Edwards for 15 years.
Exactly I would say, and that it probably puts Edwards in that home in 1888.
05-05-2008, 05:29 PM
Interesting that Edgar Edwards split from his wife in early 1888, and that he then travelled to London to iniate court action to salvage what he could from their grocers shop in Cardiff. It must have been about this time that he met the witness from the 'Victoria Home' who in 1903 stated that he had known Edwards for 15 years. Exactly I would say, and that it probably puts Edwards in that home in 1888.Assuming that the witness, William Jones, was resident there at the time, AP, and that Edwards lived there too. Sadly, we don't know that.
All we can say is that Jones was living in the Victoria Home in 1903 - goodness knows where he was in 1888. Even if he were still living in the Victoria at that time, it's not axiomatic that he shared his address with Edwards, or even that the two came to know each other in Spitalfields. They might have first met in Camberwell, Camden or Cardiff, for all we know.
Worth doing some more digging, though, AP. God help us with the aliases, though :)
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