The Poste House Revisited

[Howard Brown]

I don't know if anyone else has seen the significance of what Mike has provided on the " Fever of Cerebral Affection " thread in the D'onston section.....but I think you might.

Regardless of whether you are interested in the Stephenson section of the site, this thread has produced something of importance, I feel, in terms of the Maybrick Saga....

I spent some time yesterday looking for the "High Flags" which Anne Deary mentioned in the CH document of February, 1868 to no avail....I completely overlooked the brief mention in the material Mike generously provided below.

HOWEVER...

When one examines the counter-arguments to Maybrick's possible suspectworthiness, invariably one of the first things that pop up is the name of the taproom that is found within the Maybrick Diary....that of
Poste House.

Being fairly interested at one time in the Maybrick Saga and being very influenced by Roger Wilke and Melvin Harris's counter arguments to the saga, I also felt that the reference to the Poste House was perhaps the most serious "goof up" in the story. Wilke, I believe, was the first to point out that the Poste House was named the MUCK MIDDEN at the time of the WM. Mr. Harris, if I am not mistaken, likewise pointed out this very serious error on the part of any forger, if indeed forgery was involved in the construction of the Diary.

Now...we have evidence in front of us...from what Mike and I have tossed up here...that the High Flags was NOT the actual name of the taproom that Anne Deary mentions in the Feb. 25th deposition found in the Customs House records...but the Duke of Cumberland.

To me...this puts the issue of an alternative titling of the taproom found in the Diary into an entirely new and exciting light.

[Mr. Poster]

Hi ho How

Of all the arguments against the Diary and given the way pubs are named, known and locally described......I always thought the Poste House argument was fairly lame.

Especially given the other problems with the Diary.

However it is an interesting point you make especially as it related to the same blustery wind that seems to have blown through both Maybrick-land and the State of D'Onston.

p

[Paul Butler]

Hiho Mr P and to you too How.

I think I was once unduly influenced by Harris and his bandwagon's original objections based on the Cumberland Street Poste house/Muck Midden argument too.

I used to wonder if it may be a serious flaw in the diary, but an objective reading of that passage in the diary and in its proper context, quickly reveals that what could be at fault is the interpretation of the words by others, rather than the actual words of the diary itself.

The diary doesn't claim the Poste House to necessarily be in Liverpool does it?

Arguably, by deciding that whilst he was there, partaking of whatever took his fancy that day, and deciding "London it shall be", he was telling us that he was actually in the capital at the time and not Liverpool.

Does a Poste House have to be a pub? Could it not also be a tea room, restaurant or anywhere you could buy refreshments? I can't actually picture Sir Jim partaking of a plate of scones and a pot of tea, but I'm sure you get my drift!

regards.

Paul

[Howard Brown]

Lars,old bean...

Maybrick and Donston's candidacies are both or were both,in the latter case, products of some documentation in one form or another. Maybrick, obviously, being a "suspect" based on the Diary and Donston, based on his collected written work and how they were treated and what others "said" about him in their writing(s).

Its hard to find two other individuals in the Case who have as much written about them from contemporary sources...other than Tumbelty.

But yeah, the same wind blows through both camps, doesn't it?

[Magpie]

Hej Da, Lars.

I agree with you to a certain extent.

And Ripper folks should know better--after all, what Ripperologist hasn't heard of "Ringers" ?

The assumption that The Poste House in the Diary must refer to the pub now known as The Poste House in Liverpool comes directly from Ms. Harrison's interpretation of the Diary's meaning, rather than the Diary itself.

[Paul]

Pubs often have colloquial names and apart from 'The Ringers', which derived its name from the owner's name, a better example would be The Clean House, Mrs Fiddymont's pub, which was properly named the Prince Albert, and would probably be unidentifiable as such today if the contemporary newspapers hadn't identified it.

Whilst it is highly probable that the diarist did make a slip - the spelling of 'Poste' is a serious problem - that a pub in Liverpool used as a post house could have been known colloquially as 'the Post House' is possible and perhaps even likely. But that spelling...

[Caroline Morris]

Whilst it is highly probable that the diarist did make a slip - the spelling of 'Poste' is a serious problem - that a pub in Liverpool used as a post house could have been known colloquially as 'the Post House' is possible and perhaps even likely. But that spelling...

Hi Paul,

Depends entirely on what date can be put on the writing in the diary, doesn't it?

Obviously if the diary was written at any time before the Cumberland St watering hole was named the Poste House, our diarist was not referring to that watering hole. If it could have been written at any time subsequently (in other words, if we could be sure evidence doesn't exist to indicate otherwise), then yes, it would be 'highly probable', as you say, that a very amateur mistake was made, by someone who didn't bother to check what the real James Maybrick would have called the place.

I have pointed out on numerous occasions that the diary author also gets the spelling of 'post haste' wrong (spelling it 'poste'), so he/she clearly demonstrates a difficulty with post/poste, before we even consider whether on this occasion he/she was simply copying the modern spelling of the Cumberland St pub sign.

Also, the real James Maybrick, and anyone alive in 1888, would undoubtedly have come across the only instance in my dictionary of a 'poste', by way of 'Poste Restante' signs, which a modern hoaxer would be very unlikely to have been unconsciously copying from anywhere in the late 20th century.

I have also noticed recently that the diary author capitalises certain nouns that we might expect a writer to have capitalised in the LVP, but not so much these days. While a modern author might well use the lower case when writing about, for example, going to a 'post office', 'pub' (or 'public house'), or seeing 'a doctor', our diarist capitalises 'the Exchange floor' and 'a Doctor' (as in 'they have me down as...a Doctor...'). So why not the 'Poste House' too? There may be other examples in the diary of capitalisation of nouns that we wouldn't necessarily do today.

I still think the Post Office Tavern (as it was called in 1888) is the best bet for the Poste House: a stone's throw from Church Alley, where James spent his early days; Whitechapel virtually round the corner; and Central Station, for the evening train back to Aigburth - leaving on the hour and the half hour I believe - just a couple of minutes' walk away. Anyone just missing a train would have had plenty of time for a swift half or two before heading off to catch the next one.

I know of at least two people in modern times (one a publican, the other a local history enthusiast) who instantly thought of this public house (and not the one in Cumberland St) when asked face-to-face about a "post house" in Liverpool.

Love,

Caz
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[Paul Butler]

Hi Paul.

Whilst I agree entirely with what you say, I think that our diarist's demonstrable lack of spelling skills lets him off the hook slightly, and of course it's consistent with his spelling of Poste haste later on.

It all depends I suppose on how long ago the muck midden might have been known colloquially as "The post House". I know Caz has done sterling work on this and shown that it could have even been another pub entirely.

I think it further lets him off the hook that Poste house is a generic sort of term that can mean all sorts of things. If he'd used a specific name like "The frog and newt", or "Fiddler's elbow" and these turned out not to have existed in the 1880s it might have proved fatal.

It just seems odd that having covered his back in so many ways elsewhere, he should make such a dumb ar**d mistake the one and only time he appears to name a specific place in the whole 63 pages that a modern day researcher might be able to verify.

It certainly is odd.

regards.

Paul

[Paul Butler]

Hiya Caz.

We crossed in the poste there.

Couldn't have put it better myself!

Paul

[Mike Covell]

Another theory that could go some way to explaining the whole "Poste House" mystery is the usage of public houses as drop off and collections points for mail.

Whilst researching the "Black Lion" in Bridlington, for my work on Robert D'Onston Stephenson, I discovered it was used for such a purpose.

Trade Directories in Hull also showed several public houses being used for such a purpose.

Could the public house reffered to in "the Diary" have been used for such an endevour, thereby gaining the nickname "The Poste House"?

[Paul Butler]

Hi Mike.

Of course the answer is yes.

The Royal mail has been associated with the taverns and inns where the mail coaches stopped off for centuries.

It would be informative to know how common a term Post House was in the 1880s when referring to an inn or other establishment that was or had been "frequented" by mail coaches.

regards.

Paul

[Mike Covell]

I have a lot of info on pub classifications ie the differences between,
Alehouse,
Beer-house,
Dram shop,
Hotel,
Inn,
Tap,
Tavern,

But all the info on wether or not the pubs were carriers or not can only be obtained via Liverpool local studies.

[Caroline Morris]

It all depends I suppose on how long ago the muck midden might have been known colloquially as "The post House".


Hi Paul, Mike,

The problem is that the Cumberland St pub could not possibly be mistaken by anyone for one of the old coaching inns, and it first got its (nominal) postal association when a new post office was located nearby in the early 1890s. So I can't imagine why anyone would have referred to it as the post house as early as 1888. By 1894, however, it was officially named the New Post Office Hotel in recognition of the newly built post office.

At the same time, the Post Office Tavern on the corner of School Lane and Post Office Place became officially the Old Post Office Hotel. The main Liverpool post office had occupied a site adjacent to the Post Office Tavern from at least as far back as 1800 until it relocated elsewhere in 1839, leaving just the pub. The postal service has been associated with inns and taverns in this green and pleasant and sodden land of ours, probably since Eve wrote to God apologising for fancying a change from Adam's Ale and making hubby turn the apple into cider. :)

There was also at one time a Post Office Coffee Shop in Post Office Place, presumably in the hope that people "just popping to the post house dear, to post a quick letter", would have a quick coffee instead of a quick pint and return sober to the missus, actually having remembered to post her letter to Great Aunt Harriet, instead of arriving home drunk as a skunk with it still in their pocket.

Love,

Caz
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