Male-Female Partners in Murder

[How Brown]

The recent apprehension of two French people...the male killer and the female accomplice...involved in the murder of virgins, is just another instance of a male and female "team" allied in serial murder. George Gallego and his wife...The Homolka/Bernardo team in Canada...and others pop into the old noggin.

You know where this one's headed...

...so what are the chances of it possibly being true? Could the Ripper have had a female accomplice?

[WRITEFX]

I always wondered if there was a woman egging him on in the background or else he did it on her behalf without her knowledge. So there would be a Freudian twist.

[Ali]

Hmmm, there could have been that type of catalyst effect..... If you look at that as a scenario, there has always been speculation that the murders ceased because JTR died / committed suicide / was committed - he could have equally stopped if the significant other was out of the equation for the same reasons, just a thought!

[How Brown]

Ali & WFX:

I'm gonna check on how many pairs of m/f killers soon....I think people might be surprised as to how many of them there were...and are.

Of course, one argument will be that there were few serial killers prior to JTR and to contemplate that a woman might have assisted is a bit much. I knew that before I put this thread up.

But...stranger things have happened. Who would have guessed many of the motives..personages...and combinations of killers we've seen in the last century?

[WRITEFX]

How - you just wrote that it could be hard to contemplate a woman involved but unless I'm mistaken I remember a few posts on here about particularly gruesome murders done by women back in those good old days.

And apart from those, there were the infamous baby farm murders - not the same as murdering adults but who knows what these women went on to do. And there was a heck of a lot of them that killed not just the odd one or two.

[Ali]

Hi How, looking at modern UK cases like Myra Hindley and Rose West, we would question if either of them would have offended if they had different partners.
For whatever reason women become killers / serial killers, society always judge them more harshly than their male counterpart, as women are supposed to be nurturers.
The judge in the moors murders case saw Hindley as more vulnerable than Brady and sentenced accordingly. Brady was a serious sexual sadist and he saw Hindley as being manipulated and coerced by him, so allowed the provision of parole for her, which she never accomplished due to the high level of public outrage at her crimes. Brady, however, never sought parole, and did everything he could to scupper Hindley's overt public campaigns for release.
Ali
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I think an interesting point and one worthy of more research would be how many male / female partnerships in the serial killer world are female dominated.

[Big Jon]

If you also look at Ian Huntley - Maxine Carr. She did not help him commit the murders and probably knew nothing about them, yet the public have been outraged at attempts to protect her new identity. They blame her aswell for what Huntley did, for no apparant reason.

[Ali]

Hi Writefx, Looking at Amelia Dyer, only 8 years after the Whitechapel murders, it is believed in some circles she may have murdered as many as 50 babies and children. For the time, the forensics and the undercover police sting used in the case to bring her to justice (albeit for one murder only) were superb.

[Ali]

Hi Jon, I was actually just about to cite the same case, but you beat me to it.
Carr was vilified for alibiing Huntley - she probably didn't believe for a second the man she loved would have been capable of killing children.

[Big Jon]

Hi Jon, I was actually just about to cite the same case, but you beat me to it.
Carr was vilified for alibiing Huntley - she probably didn't believe for a second the man she loved would have been capable of killing children.

I believe she was eventually acquitted because she genuinely believed he was innocent. Or something like that.

Dead wrong how they keep baying for her blood if you ask me.

[Ali]

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg294/cabotoffice/a-dyer.jpg
Amelia Dyer The Reading baby farmer

[Magpie]

Dont' forget the "Lonely Hearts Killers" (Can't remember their names off-hand)

[How Brown]

Dear WFX:

I may not have stressed "pre-JTR" serial killing tandems. Sorry for the confusion.

Magpie mentioned the Lonely Hearts killers ....Kev, wasn't the lady the "head honcho" in those crimes?

[Big Jon]

Out of curiosity, do the people on this site from outside the UK know anything about the examples we are citing?

I'm wondering because we seem to hear about the famous crimes in the US, etc. so do they hear about ours?

If not and anyone wants details of the crimes, please say.

[Stan Reid]

Fernandez and Beck, it's hard to say who was in charge there. Beck was the one who went bravely to the electric chair though. Raymond was a whimpering wobbly legged mess when they hauled him into the death chamber.

[Magpie]

Magpie mentioned the Lonely Hearts killers ....Kev, wasn't the lady the "head honcho" in those crimes?

Quite possibly, since it was her insane jealousy that turned a con-game into serial murder.

I think very often the female is the driving force behind such crimes, even if the male is the one who actually kills. Certainly the West case seems to be another instance of a very strong willed woman coupled with a weak willed male.

[Ali]

Hi Magpie, Fred West had already killed before meeting Rose. Unlike Hindley and Brady, both West's came from families where sexual abuse was the norm. I am putting a link in to a Police interview with Rose West about the murder of Heather West
http://neil-paton.tripod.com/inter.htm

[WRITEFX]

I believe she was eventually acquitted because she genuinely believed he was innocent. Or something like that.

Dead wrong how they keep baying for her blood if you ask me.

I read that she was the one telling Huntley to burn the bodies when he told her on the phone what had happened because she didn't want to lose her lifestyle.

I think the reason the public hate her so much is because of this (if it's true) and the fact she was their class assistant and close to them (they made her a hand made card) and she kept lying all the time. If she had been working in a different school and didn't know them I don't think it would have been as bad for her.

[WRITEFX]

The Wests - lots of married couples have abuse in their backgrounds yet don't turn into killers. So I wonder what if anyone has ever made a list of criteria that could make one or both of them commit those crimes.

I recently an unusual book on this subject, sorry forgot the title.

A young female victim of a rapist started going out with him. They married and started kidnapping and killing girls. The police never guessed she was involved because her name had been changed when she was a child. It turned out that she had been taken away by social workers from her family because of incest and physical abuse and had killed as a child but the authorities had never realised that it had been her and thought it was the parents.

She admitted that she had wanted to recreate the scenes from her childhood when she met up with the man.

But you can't help but ask yourself - why did she do it and not her siblings who had similar experiences?

[Big Jon]

I read that she was the one telling Huntley to burn the bodies when he told her on the phone what had happened because she didn't want to lose her lifestyle.

I think the reason the public hate her so much is because of this (if it's true) and the fact she was their class assistant and close to them (they made her a hand made card) and she kept lying all the time. If she had been working in a different school and didn't know them I don't think it would have been as bad for her.

I'm gonna have to go back and read up more on this because I wasn't aware of that. I was under the impression she did not know ANYTHING and merely provided him with a false alibi.

[Big Jon]

I'm gonna have to go back and read up more on this because I wasn't aware of that. I was under the impression she did not know ANYTHING and merely provided him with a false alibi.

Okay apparantly this was a comment made by Huntley in prison, some sources say in a taped interview and other say to his father. Not sure how reliable this statement would be, but the police don't seem to have acted on it.

Question is: can one really trust the word of a child murderer?

I also found an interesting site that says that the whole Huntley conviction was a fit up by police in order to hide the fact that there is a serial child abductor/murderer on the loose in the UK (who has been responsible for all the high profile cases) and prevent public panic!

Don't you love conspiracy theories!

[WRITEFX]

I'm gonna have to go back and read up more on this because I wasn't aware of that. I was under the impression she did not know ANYTHING and merely provided him with a false alibi.

I do recall that the night in question she was with her mother and she had been caught on a mobile phone photo showing her all over some guy at a bar or nightclub can't remember the exact details.

I've not heard about that conspiracy theory. The whole case is unusual as Huntley never did tell the court why and how he did it, there were only snippets from the police in the papers where he told them it was an accident. Then apparently confessed to an inmate in jail that he was responsible.

[Ali]

I thought this was an extremely interesting article about Carr (albeit, from a very feminist perspective) it details the angel/daemon dichotomy when we look at women who offend.
http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2004/06/crime_and_punishment_maxine_carr_and_other_evil_wo men
Ali
xx
Interestingly, if you Google search "Maxine Carr" and look at the bottom of the page you will find - searches related to Maxine Carr,
Ian Huntley Myra Hindley

[Big Jon]

I do recall that the night in question she was with her mother and she had been caught on a mobile phone photo showing her all over some guy at a bar or nightclub can't remember the exact details.

I've not heard about that conspiracy theory. The whole case is unusual as Huntley never did tell the court why and how he did it, there were only snippets from the police in the papers where he told them it was an accident. Then apparently confessed to an inmate in jail that he was responsible.

He changed his story several times about where and how it happened. First it was in the bathroom, then one in the bathroom and the other in the living room, then back to the bathroom.

I do recall reading a story somewhere that Carr's mother intimidated a witness who was testifying that Huntley and Carr were looking into the boot of his car while she was crying, or something like that.

This sites arguement was that the bodies was in fact discovered a week before the official discovery, and were fully clothed and full of forensic evidence. The police then stripped the bodies, disposed of the clothes in Huntley's work place, planted his hairs on the bodies and then rehid them somewhere easily found by members of the public.

They then broke into his car the night before his arrest and planted false evidence.

The main argument for this was that the police were sending appeals to the killer to ask him to stop what he was doing (via one of the girls phones) after the police's position was that they must be dead, and that they weren't appealing to Huntley but to the unnamed child serial killer at work in Britain. They were also effectively offering him protection from prosecution if he just stopped.

I'd love to know the inner workings of the minds of people who come up with these theories!

If I have time later I'll see if I can find the url again.

[Stephen Leece]

I only have (rather I am only prepared to give) anecdotal evidence here, but I think a factor that is missing here is culture- specifically gender roles. The Huntley/ Carr case is not unusual where I live and work. Women cover up for men's unspeakable crimes not necessarilly because they love them, but because society dictates men are always right and are unaccountable, in other words a woman's opinion and evidence is worthless. I think a ghastly little Patriarchal rural community like the Much Marcle of the Wests was no different from the Bedouin farmers I live amongst where rape and incest is common and is frequently turned a blind eye to at best. (And before anyone accuses me of being an apologist for such a horrific society I would like to add I have defended myself, family and work colleagues from horrific sexual assaults that went unpunished by the community/ local authorities despite repeated protests). Privately myself, family and friends refer to this kind of thing as Wicker Man syndrome. Carr is hardly the brightest of sparks, neither was Huntley for that matter, but how were they brought up to view the opposite gender? In Fred West's case women were clearly pleasure machines, and Rose the whore, reinforced that view. Anyone have a view on this?
Re. The Lonely Hearts killers didn't the male part suffer a bad head injury that made him semi-retarded and open to influence?

Other mixed sex duos include:
Bonnie and Clyde
Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka
Charlie Starkweather and Carol Fugate
Burke and Hare with their wives
In fiction: Sweeney Todd and Margery/ Sarah Lovett.

[How Brown]

Nice finds and posts, WFX,Ali,Jon and Prof. Stephen !

Its ironic,I suppose, that here in the States I would venture to say that of all the male/female killing duos one would name first....Bonnie & Clyde would be named first....

Ironic in that Bonnie Parker was every bit as mean and bloodthirsty as her male counterpart. Many consider her the driving force in that pair.

With all due respect to Prof. Leese's statement regarding how society often regards women's perspectives less...in the case of the above duo, both ate equal amounts of lead when ambushed. The authorities considered them equals for certain and that was back in the mid 1930's. Of course,the bankrobbin' and murdering duo made the mistake of messin' with Texas Rangers and Texas lawmen in general.:playball:

[Stephen Leece]

True How but Bonnie was only wanted for robbery, not murder- she never killed anyone. Her assassination was unjustified in that respect. Consider symbiotic relationships- would Bonnie have been as vicious without Clyde?

[How Brown]

Dear Stephen:

I'm sure that Parker at least shot at police officers in several instances...so its possible that one of her bullets met flesh. But I understand what you mean of course. Its quite probable that she would have remained a waitress for a few years if she hadn't met Barrow, who was a criminal prior to meeting her. Yet,Parker seems to have been just as enthusiastic about the skein of robberies and attention they garnered. She also made the fatal mistake of posing with Texas Ranger Frank Hamer for a photo intended to rub salt in the authorities wounds ( Unless that is a myth....) and if not a myth, it certainly made her equally reprehensible and as much a "catch" to the police. They took no chances,Stephen, when they ambushed them, which tells me that they regarded her as an equal to Barrow. Would you agree with this latter observation,sor?

And it was she that immortalized them in a poem ( Even Robert Charles Longfellow Linford of JTRForums & Poems.Com.. could write better poetry that Bonnie Parker).

[Stephen Leece]

Well the photo of her and Frank Hamer is I believe an invention coutesy of Arthur Penn in his film version of the tale. The Texas Rangers that hunted them was led by Hamer- the youngest was Ted Hinton, who resigned in disgust in the aftermath of the assassination. In regards to Bonnie's poetry; fine she can turn a shapely phrase but that does not make her guilty of incitement to murder, or murder (ever heard of Salman Rushdie? or read the Bible or the Qu'ran?). Legally she was not guilty of murder. In a British sense she was 'part of the crime' and would have swung Derek Bentley style. What is the USA position on situations like this?

(Apologies- a lot of hasty re-edits with this post- suddenly discovered I was out of my depth when it came to matters US)

[How Brown]

Dear Stephen:

You're not out of your league....but I would remind you that Texas is unlike other states in their stance on capital crimes and accessoryship.

I think its safe to say she would have served 1,000 years...if not fingered for at least one of the dozen murders attributed to the gang.

That Hinton resigned was news to me. Thanks for that information. I used to live near ( and traveled past) little Texas towns that the Barrow Gang frequented in Central Texas.

[Stephen Leece]

I thought Hinton's resignation was common knowledge- I was told he went into the hotel business.

[Ali]

Hi Stephen, you may be entirely right when it comes to Fred West's background - to some extent Rose's may have tallied with it, as according to popular media Rose's father continued to have intercourse with her well into adulthood (although there may be no basis of truth or evidence to substantiate this.) For Fred, allegedly, incest was a 'rite of passage' and the boys of the family were initiated by the mother and the girls by the father. If you read some of the more sensational biographies this was known in the local community.
Interestingly, Fred protected Rose right up until he committed suicide, claiming she had no involvement in the murders.

[WRITEFX]

Ali, it's like that post I made on the previous page, how is it that some children brought up like that go on to kill and others wouldn't dream of it?

Rose - I watched an interview lately by one of her victims that got away. It made harrowing viewing.

[Big Jon]

Ali, it's like that post I made on the previous page, how is it that some children brought up like that go on to kill and others wouldn't dream of it?



There must be some genetics at work. Perhaps the right combination of nature and nurture is required to create the killer.

[Raven]

Hi Writefx & Jon, Yup, nature and nurture - we all have different ways in which our brains and psyches are wired. For example, lots of business men have tendencies towards psychopathy, it engenders the ruthless streak you need to survive and succeed in high powered fields, but they don't go on to commit murders, in fact relatively few psychopaths are murderers or criminals of any type.
There are probably (IMHO) lots of factors that come together to make a serial killer which would be a mix of nature, nurture and circumstances.

[WRITEFX]

Ali, do you mean many psychopaths are also business men?

[Big Jon]

Apologies for going off topic, but isn't psychopath a now reduntant term in the medical sense and only used by the media etc. as a catch all term (interchangable with sociopath)?

[Raven]

They are called personality disorders collectively Jon.
Ali
xx

[Dustin Gould]

Howie...

Anything's possible. Not including Tumblety, for obvious reasons. :)

To participate in such butchery upon he own gender? Well, that would entail being one, cutthroat female (no pun intended). However men do it. So why not?