Occult Symbology

[admin tim]

http://independentartistscompany.com/symbolspage.html

MORE than you can shake a talisman at. Examples are:

Vesica Pisces http://www.independentartistscompany.com/spotlight/symbols/294.jpg (or Jesus Fish) - In Pagan times, this glyph was associated with the Goddess Venus, and represented female genitalia. Early depictions of Christ depict him as an infant within the vesica (usually called a mandorla, meaning 'almond shaped.'), which represented the womb of Mary (and often, the coming together of heaven and earth in the body of jesus- part man, part god). As such, it is also a doorway or portal between worlds, and symbolizes the intersection between the heaven and the material plane. The shape of arches in gothic architecture is based on the vesica.
Masonic Square and Compass http://www.independentartistscompany.com/spotlight/symbols/262.jpg One of the most common symbols of Freemasonry is the symbol of the crossed compass and set-square. The compass and square are architect's tools, and symbolize God as the architect of the universe, among other things. As measuring instruments, the tools represent judgement and discernment. The compass, which is used to draw circles, represents the realm of the spiritual- eternity. The angle measures the square, the symbol of earth and the realm of the material. Together, they represent the convergence of matter and spirit, and the convergence of earthly and spiritual responsibilities.

Sorry - no Baphomet!

[How Brown]

Vesica Pisces http://www.independentartistscompany...ymbols/294.jpg (http://www.independentartistscompany.com/spotlight/symbols/294.jpg) (or Jesus Fish) - In Pagan times, this glyph was associated with the Goddess Venus, and represented female genitalia--Tim Mosley
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Thats what I have been saying for years now....

There's no way anyone tried to put a giant vagina over Whitechapel. Its frigging stupid.

We had one over Philly once and it didn't make a dent in the news.

Seriously, and sorry for the off color humor there to the ladies and sensitive men.......there were at one time, close to 9,000 links on the Internet to this symbol and none of them were in any way sinister. The guy who promoted that theory knew that and essentially and unintentionally encouraged others to examine the other areas of the Stephenson story a little closer. I'll wager Mr. Harris cringed when he heard someone was trying to expand the non-suspect Stephenson's "motive" into this realm of fantasy.

[How Brown]

bump up

[Joe Chetcuti]

I watched a film today that I hadn't seen in 33 years. It was a low budget tv-movie starring Peter Fonda & Loretta Swit entitled Race With The Devil.

During the movie, Swit opened a satanic book and read "At midnight of the full moon the high priest would plunge a knife into the chest of a human sacrificial offering."

There is nothing earth-shattering about that type of dialogue. That sort of talk has been heard for centuries. "Moonlight - Midnight - a knife plunged into the chest of a human offering." It's sick stuff, and that's just the way the world is. But regardless of your attitudes about this subject, researchers can look back at a certain Whitechapel figure and realize how the man was thinking:

"I chose a bright, moonlight night for my expedition to Whitechapel, just the kind of night that the thug whom I wanted to trail had a predilection for."

"Midnight had struck, and the air was quiet and cool."

Sir Hughes-Hallett made those two 'theatrical-mannered' quotes while speaking about his midnight August 8th Whitechapel hunt. You could tell right from the start that Hughes-Hallett drew something very dark about the deliberate knife plunge into Tabram's chest. The exact number of 39 stabbed wounds could have only solidified his belief in the matter.

[Von Schwantz]

With years of Catholic education, a degree which may finally pay off in Christian Culture, and an abiding interest in symbology, I can attest I never heard of this vesica pisces until I studied Jack the Ripper and Roslyn D'Onston.
This symbol was new to me and I had many misconceptions, it would seem. I thought it had something to do with the ICHTHYS fish symbol of Jesus. While the fish symbol can be found in the overlapping circles, vesica pisces actually means fish bladder. I'm guessing it's because that's what it looks like.
There is no direct connection that I know of between the history of the Ichthys and the Vesica.
I'm still wondering why you characterize the vesica pisces as a "Christian" symbol when Christians never use it and even the Ichthys is unknown. My friend told me he never heard of the fish symbol until he saw it on Seinfeld and I think I first heard about it from Pentecostals.
The vesica pisces looks like a perfect illustration for Catholic theology about the intersection of the temporal and the divine but not once do I remember the Catholic instructors using intersecting circles. They'll use the cross or the X.

[How Brown]

With years of Catholic education, a degree which may finally pay off in Christian Culture, and an abiding interest in sybology, I can attest I never heard of this vesica pisces until I studied Jack the Ripper and Roslyn D'Onston.

Ha !!! Von Schwantz !! And neither would D'Onston in regard to any link to the WM crimes !:laugh: I can see him laughing along with the rest of us...

This symbol was new to me and I had many misconceptions, it would seem. I thought it had something to do with the ICHTHYS fish symbol of Jesus. While the fish symbol can be found in the overlapping circles, vesica pisces actually means fish bladder. I'm guessing it's because that's what it looks like.
There is no direct connection that I know of between the history of the Ichthys and the Vesica.
I'm still wondering why you characterize the vesica pisces as a "Christian" symbol when Christians never use it and even the Ichthys is unknown. My friend told me he never heard of the fish symbol until he saw it on Seinfeld and I think I first heard about it from Pentecostals.

The vesica pisces looks like a perfect illustration for Catholic theology about the intersection of the temporal and the divine but not once do I remember the Catholic instructors using intersecting circles. They'll use the cross or the X.

Well,well,well...aren't we all high and mighty over there ! I suppose you haven't hear of Reverend I. J. Pinkerton Edwards, the man who hobknobbed with Henry Lincoln, another one of those guys who sees "links to occult lines" everywhere he turns.

All that stuff is, is an attempt to profit off the interest in that ridiculous Da Vinci code shite that the kids and detached adults who are "into" the whacky world of the "occult" have. If Pinkerton tried to push the idea that there is a parallelogram...which there is...on the map of Whitechapel when you zigzag from one victim to the other and tried to push that idea that a mathemetician was behind the WM at a mathemetician convention, he'd get laughed at. Far easier and profitable to push the occult nonsense...nonsense that Pinkerton knows RDS is never shown to have practiced, only talked about.

Hail Baphomet !:high5:

[Von Schwantz]

All that stuff is, is an attempt to profit off the interest in that ridiculous Da Vinci code shite that the kids and detached adults who are "into" the whacky world of the "occult" have.
And might not Jack be one of these adults? Are you taking the position Jack was a straight secular man with no religous interests or just a whacko with a fragmented mind which sometimes spills out occult?
on the map of Whitechapel when you zigzag from one victim to the other and tried to push that idea that a mathemetician was behind the WM at a mathemetician convention, he'd get laughed at.
If you watch Animal X Monster or Murderer on Youtube, you'll see how a profiler followed the zigzag pattern of the Beast of Gevaudan and determined that a man was behind the beast (i.e. the animal was trained). The trail zigzagged straight in a regular pattern unlike a wild animal. ^v^v^v
I can tell you Jack wasn't 'an animal' in any sense.
The Ichthys is in fact derived from the mandorla symbol and by association, the Vesica Pisces. So you're right about the VP being at least an Early Christian symbol.

[How Brown]

Originally Posted by How Brown http://www.jtrforums.com/images/styles/silverblue/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=50313#post50313)
All that stuff is, is an attempt to profit off the interest in that ridiculous Da Vinci code shite that the kids and detached adults who are "into" the whacky world of the "occult" have.
And might not Jack be one of these adults? Are you taking the position Jack was a straight secular man with no religous interests or just a whacko with a fragmented mind which sometimes spills out occult?

V.S.;

My current position is that the Ripper was a local man with marginal interest in either religion or the occult or anything other than his needs at the moment.

I don't think that the Ripper needs to be on one side or the other....religious monomania or in the clutches of the occult... as far as what he believed in. I recognize that you are not implying that he had to be on one side of the spiritual fence or the other as well...

That he may have participated in the occult or been a religiously bent person is quite possible and I'd be an idiot to say otherwise. I just don't "see" the evidence so clearly at this point in time. Gimme two weeks and maybe I'll change my mind.

I also am not so certain that he applied the knife to animals, started fires, or masturbated all over the place like some s.k.'s have been known to do...yet thats possible.

Therefore, where is the evidence of any pattern which demonstrates some ritual within these murders is the question.

1. Is the removal of organs of prostitutes a black magic ritual? Not by what I or others have looked into.

2. Were the bodies arranged as if in some sort of ritual pattern? My question is, how do we prove that,even if they did appear to be...

3. Is what D'Onston stated in the PMG on 12/1/88 similar to what occurred?
A. He's got the GSG in Mitre Square.
B. He's assumed that the word "Juwes" means "Juives" and all that rot...
C. He's mentioned a calvary cross.. and uses Smith as a victim to complete the pattern. He mentioned 7 victims. Smith, unless we are all really off here...wasn't a Ripper victim. Here RDS "forces" the proverbial 10 pounds of salt into a 5 pound bag.
D. But the kicker is the mention of the prostitutes organs being used in rituals...and RDS definitely used Eliphaz Levi as a source for the basis of the text he repeated in the December article....but he added the part of the prosses organs. Thats not in Levi's tome. D'Onston lied. Thats a shock,huh?:tape:

Where do you stand,oh mighty Schwantz....on whether it was a religiously bent or occultist....?

Hail Baphomet !:playball:

How

[Von Schwantz]

Too bad the Vesica Pisces is a mandorla or "an almond" and not cashews, or I might put more stock it in myself.... If only not to paint myself into a Masonic corner. Keep my options open.
I think Stephenson made a valiant effort to frame the French. The pattern does suggest someone familiarized to rituals if not actually performing one outside in public like an outdoor mass.
I see an almost perfect V in the first 3 murders which still suggests some subconscious things, at least.

[How Brown]

Its funny you mentioned a "V", V.S....because the Vesica Pisces has been placed on edifices in the form of a vagina.

Its nuts,really,V.S. There's close to 9,000 URLs on the V.P. and none are in reference to something sinister. I suppose Pinkerton didn't know that?

Anyway...I don't think its unreasonable to think that from reading the work published in the year 1888 by the French "occultist" Levi ( real name, Alphonse Louis Constant...and not Jewish as the name Levi would make one think) that RDS had that subconsciously in mind as well.

He also died 13 years BEFORE the release of his 1888 work. Crowley,another b.s. artist, claimed to be the reincarnation of Levi, although Crowley was in his mom's womb at the time of Levi's passing away.



Lévi was the son of a shoemaker in Paris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris); he attended a seminary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminary) and began to study to enter the Roman Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic)priesthood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest). However, while at the seminary he fell in love, and left without being ordained.
Vive Le France !

not really.....:playball:

[Magpie]

Hiya Howard.

I'm sure you know that Levi wrote his work at the urging of Lytton.

Just one of those "six (six six) degrees of separation" snippets.

[How Brown]

Yes I do, Mag...and thanks for mentioning it.:kiss:

Although its six ( six,six) or one half dozen of the other, I'll bet Stephenson was really excited while in the LH and reading the newpaper accounts of the skein of murders. It was fortuitous for him that they occurred where and when they did...because otherwise, his life story would never have been examined as it has.

Hail Baphomet & Magpie:high5:

[Von Schwantz]

Howard, you don't seem to realize what pressure suspect-based theorists are under to meet the demands of peers and general public. Just look at my yellow map of the murders below I got from the Shinto theorist; MJK's location was fudged a bit to fit. I think the other marker is a Shinto Temple.
You don't have to make people imagine a calvary cross or a vesica pisces with fudged math or fudged locations to recognize a definite pattern of straight lines, right angles, intersections, and terminals at regular intervals consistant with a person, sane by any modern standard, not travelling in circles like he's lost (or a madman?) or an occultist making a almond shape no one would see or understand but, taken in context, definitely with an overarching architectural/artistic plan with religious overtones. IMHO.
But the kicker is the mention of the prostitutes organs being used in rituals...and RDS definitely used Eliphaz Levi as a source for the basis of the text he repeated in the December article....but he added the part of the prosses organs. Thats not in Levi's tome....
The chapter on Necromancy does provide an example of a black magic ritual that is partly performed in public, a surprise to me. Bones from a cemetery are crossed over your breast as you help in a Christmas mass and later thrown in the church, I believe. I guess Whitechapel could substitute for a church.
Bully for Bulwer-Lytton for urging Levi to write it. Dogma et Rituel Part Deux is pretty impressive, especially for a Parisien! C'est mervelieus!

[How Brown]

The chapter on Necromancy does provide an example of a black magic ritual that is partly performed in public, a surprise to me: Herr Von Schwantz vom Oesterreich

Listen here, my rootin' tootin' Teuton...I notice that you didn't mention any rituals with prostitutes organs. They ain't there,mon frere.....

I have a page from one of those dreadful Levi works which is almost replicated verbatim by Herr Dunceton. The difference between the two versions is that Dunceton added a little bit to the PMG article...about the aforementioned prosses & organs. Hims a liar,V.S.

As to a pattern...again, one thing I give Ivor credit for is mentioning the distances between the murders. Its worth considering.

Yet, anyone can propose any pattern is present based on how they look at the "layout" and a theorist doesn't or rather, wouldn't, have to push for black magic being the motive, unless they developed a theory that said suspect practiced it and had a catalog of prior experience in necromantic acts born of facts in their life resume. D'onston clearly does not. Everything he discusses about the occult crap is fictional...some is downright comical. In fact, Donston is more comical than he is sinister in the whole of his "presentation" to the world as a suspect. He's almost like that man Fitzgerald who came forward and 'fessed up to the Chapman murder....only he acted the fool one step too far with Marsh, who didn't know he was laid up at the time of the murders.

I defy anyone to claim Stephenson would be considered as "suspicious" as he has been claimed to have been if they examine the facts about the guy. Sure,he wrote about the "pattern" in the PMG, but undoubtedly others "saw" the same sort of layout themselves without assuming some necromantic link was present.

Schwantzie,old bean...if someone could show that Stephenson knew about the V.P., that might be worth considering and shooting the breeze about...until...we remember that he couldn't go out from the Currie Ward at night.

The theory of this Shinto almond shaped thing is identical to the V.P....just as viable and just as impossible to prove that it was intentionally placed there by our killer. The one thing is....is that it wasn't placed there by RDS. It couldn't have been,mein Stuka.

Hail Baphomet and Hail Me...:high5:

[Von Schwantz]

... a theorist doesn't or rather, wouldn't, have to push for black magic being the motive, unless they developed a theory that said suspect practiced it and had a catalog of prior experience in necromantic acts born of facts in their life resume.
Ivor is a Channel Islander. He knows what he has to push for with regard to an English candidate from the main-island. He had a lot of explaining to do.
You suspect Jack was English? How would you explain it? Occult, Masonic, or Welsh doctor doing uterine experiments in the field? It's an overkill that goes beyond revenge here.
I don't even explain it by motive or use occult as a motive anyway. I conjecture a multi-faceted person who's signature could reveal a separate facet unrelated to his motivation. A precise ritual with a practical purpose would not be necessary in this case. Subtle symbolism or a slip of the Freudian kind is all it takes and it doesn't have to be sinister.
I don't view any symbol as inherently sinister unless it's in the context of an evil act or in conjunction with another symbol for added context, like a goat and pentacle.

[How Brown]

You suspect Jack was English?--Herr Obersturhmbannfuhrer V.S.

Yes I does,daddio...English speaking( first language) or at least,not foreign born.... I believe in the GSG. If the G was absent from the Case study, then I would have less of a belief that a non-foreigner was JTR.

I agree with everything you said afterwards. There's the possibility that this overkill had no motive other than expressing control and power to the nth degree by the killer.

Its also why I think Tabram ( a victim of overkill) is likely to be one of the victims of the Ripper too.

[Pilgrim]

You suspect Jack was English?--Herr Obersturhmbannfuhrer V.S.

Yes I does,daddio...English speaking( first language) or at least,not foreign born.... I believe in the GSG. If the G was absent from the Case study, then I would have less of a belief that a non-foreigner was JTR.
Pay attention.....

1. There is no translating the GSG into a modern interpretation.
2. There is no satisfactory translation of the GSG into a contemporaneous and intelligible message which can be used in an attempt to "read" the mind of the author. Its an exercise in mental masturbation by anyone who attempts it.
3. The ONLY thing we could do is associate the provenance of the message ( Not a graffiti...too small...too neat...too concise in blaming the Juden for something ) to the events of that evening by its physical condition,not its syntax "problems"....and thats it. *Casebook.org/The GSG. What Does It Mean? #56 (http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=19641&postcount=56)

[How Brown]

Pilgrim, old friend...:

I sure did say that about the mental and the masturbatin'. I'm limited on the former and goin' heavy on the latter.:kiss:

I meant what I said in terms of anyone trying to "interpret" what the GSG means..but I believe it was written by someone who was not foreign born and for whatever reason...the GSG is a "shot" against the Jews.

If someone could interpret what it meant, that would be great. I just don't think it can at the present.