I have come to a conclusion that...

[Instructor 173]

Druitt was the Ripper. For years and years I have sifted through debris, evidence, letters, guesses, reports, theories and books. I have even been lucky enough to travel to London and go on a Ripper walk with Donald Rumbelow as the guide. I have been lucky enough to have articles that I wrote printed in Ripper Notes and Ripperoo. I enjoyed working on articles with the late Jules Rosenthal, my little Australian buddy. I miss him and our e-mail discussions about the Ripper. The last article that we did was with a young lady named Cherise McClain. In that article the three of us reviewed the how and when of Mary Kelly's death. The article we did was titled "Estimating Mary Kelly's Time of Death." We put a lot of effort in that article and it was worth it. Based off of my training and experiences in law enforcement, experiences in numerous felony arrests and over 35 years in law enforcement, I have finally come to the conclusion that M.J. Druitt was the Ripper. I know that there will be people who will not easily accept this idea for one reason or another. These people will naysay or state their beliefs as to why the Ripper can not be, in their opinion, the Ripper. They are entitled to their opinions and they should state their beliefs but, as for me, the search is over. I, personally, believe that M.J. Druitt was the Ripper. Since I have had fun working to come to my personal conclusion I don't want to spoil anybody's else's fun still involved in the hunt. I think that having figured out that the search to find the Ripper is one of a personal nature related to the individual is a neat thing for me to understand. So, enjoy yourselves as you perform your own search for the Ripper. I'm still going to drop in from time-to-time to see what is new and because there are a lot of good people in these forums with whom I enjoy conversing. But to my liking, JTR was Montague John Druitt back in the fall of 1888.

[Mr. Poster]

hello Instructor

Just out of interest.....what evidence do you think provides the best indication that Druitt was our man?

And how do you feel that walks with Donald R. , email conversations etc. contributed to your coming across this evidence? I ask so that I too might walk the streets of London and indulge in email conversations and be enlightened.

p

[How Brown]

Dear Instructor 173:

Thank you ( seriously,Mr. D...) for mentioning your conclusions as to the identity of the Whitechapel Murderer. Going back to the days when you set up JTRWorldwide.Com, you've helped the community out in various ways.

I echo Lars' in that I'd be interested as to what the basis is...and whether its your "gut" feeling or something else.

Thanks Mr. D.

[Debbie McDonald]

Druitt was the Ripper. For years and years I have sifted through debris, evidence, letters, guesses, reports, theories and books. I have even been lucky enough to travel to London and go on a Ripper walk with Donald Rumbelow as the guide. I have been lucky enough to have articles that I wrote printed in Ripper Notes and Ripperoo. I enjoyed working on articles with the late Jules Rosenthal, my little Australian buddy. I miss him and our e-mail discussions about the Ripper. The last article that we did was with a young lady named Cherise McClain. In that article the three of us reviewed the how and when of Mary Kelly's death. The article we did was titled "Estimating Mary Kelly's Time of Death." We put a lot of effort in that article and it was worth it. Based off of my training and experiences in law enforcement, experiences in numerous felony arrests and over 35 years in law enforcement, I have finally come to the conclusion that M.J. Druitt was the Ripper. I know that there will be people who will not easily accept this idea for one reason or another. These people will naysay or state their beliefs as to why the Ripper can not be, in their opinion, the Ripper. They are entitled to their opinions and they should state their beliefs but, as for me, the search is over. I, personally, believe that M.J. Druitt was the Ripper. Since I have had fun working to come to my personal conclusion I don't want to spoil anybody's else's fun still involved in the hunt. I think that having figured out that the search to find the Ripper is one of a personal nature related to the individual is a neat thing for me to understand. So, enjoy yourselves as you perform your own search for the Ripper. I'm still going to drop in from time-to-time to see what is new and because there are a lot of good people in these forums with whom I enjoy conversing. But to my liking, JTR was Montague John Druitt back in the fall of 1888.

Not so sure as you that Druitt was the Ripper! In fact not sure at all. However, I do strongly believe that there was something very strange about Druitt's death. So many things do not add up. I think there was a cover up involved although not necessarily related to the Ripper.

Any thoughts?

Regards
Debbie

[How Brown]

Unless the information we've been given over the last 120 years is in error...the statement by Druitt's brother that M.J. had no other family when asked has always been a strange thing to me.

[Debbie McDonald]

Unless the information we've been given over the last 120 years is in error...the statement by Druitt's brother that M.J. had no other family when asked has always been a strange thing to me.

And why oh why did Druitt go to Hammersmith to commit suicide? Why not Greenwich or Lincoln's Inn? Why did he buy a return train ticket? And was he really in the water for a month? I find that hard to swallow. Wouldn't the train ticket have disintegrated in that time? and the paper money and wouldn't the ink have run in the cheque from hiis school? All of which were found in his pocket.

No I think he was dead much earlier and put into the Thames when the tide was high. So where had he been staying in the time of arrival until his death - The Osiers maybe, or perhaps the Tukes Asylum.:suspicious:

Incidentally - and this is a mystery I have been unable to finad any answers to - when I visited The Osiers, which as you probably know was Harry Wilson's (JK Stephen's friend from Cambridge) London home, I found that painted on the wall above the dorr was a series of names as follows:

E D Anderson, C E Robertson, B Bright, AM Walker, M A Wilson, E W Sitwell, J H Anderson, H L Stephen, D W Sitwell, M Gillson, RR Bowden-Smith, J K Sitwell.

Obviously H L Stephen is JKs brother and Harry Lushington went to Rugby School with Wilson but what is the connection with the others. They are painted in gold paint and although the then owner had painted the room since, he had left the names alone. Good man.

Another wierd coincidence is that my ex husband's girlfriend once rented this house! How strange is that, especially as she was living on the Isle of Wight when he met her and not even in London.

Well food for thought

Regards
Debbie

[How Brown]

Dear Debbie:

You may want to discuss these issues with Andrew Spallek or Stan Russo, two Ripperologists with a better all around grasp of Druitt and his life story.

I like the way you think, Debs...

Around 4 years ago....I intended to take a pair of old bluejeans or jacket that I couldn't fit in anymore and take a business card,, an old leather wallet, a few dollar bills, and a letter written in fountain pen ink...and set 'em on a hook and let them sit in the river behind where I work in suburban Philadelphia for a month to see the effects of river water on the documents in question.

This leather wallet that Druitt's documents were found in..and in a condition which did not show significant signs of disintegration...in fact they must have been pretty well "praserved" as we say in Ripperology...for them to determine all the data we have about his final days...has always troubled me.

I can't prove anything sitting on my gorgeous backside, but if I do hop off me bum, I am going to seriously look into that this year. Of course, it won't disprove or denigrate what the individuals determined back in 1888...but I am curious to see what effectriver water would have on the train ticket...after a month.

Thanks for mentioning this,Debbie.

Anyone else?

[Debbie McDonald]

Dear How

I am so sad that I did actually put a rail ticket in a glass of water in the garden for a month. It was not legible when I took it out! Was trying to prove to myself that it was actually reasonable to assume that it would have been so.

As for the £5 note (if I remember correctly) that is not made the same as a current one and anyway I needed that for a glass of wine!

:thumbsupbud:

[How Brown]

Wow ! £5 will buy two magnum bottles of "Old Linford", this generic wine thats made in Graterford Prison (Pa.) on Cell Block 4. Not bad for the price and if you run outta nail polish remover, this stuff will do the trick.

I think that to make the project work,Debbie...there would have to be agitation in the water and it would have to be "dirty water" like the Schuykill ( Skoo-Kill) River near me or The Thames for our test to work...as well as being inside a wallet..one of those wallets with folding flaps.

[Debbie McDonald]

Well I did stir it up a lot and didn't change it so I suppose it was quite dirty by the end of the month. It basically fell apart!

Also why didn't the tide which was very high at the time he was found, wash him downstream more? Maybe he went in further up river. But I think it was more likely to be near Chiswick where he was found.

Have you any ideas regarding the names on the kitchen wall at The Osiers? I would love to know what they meant.

By the way, I don't really think that Druitt was the Ripper - maybe - but probably not. Just that his death was wierd.

Debbie

[How Brown]

Dear Deb:

Thats what this field needs..more people who will experiment with things. I did a couple of tests ( a simulated-Tabram assault and a chalkin' of the GSG), but there's other things we could do...such as this test, but in similar conditions, as in 1888.

I was thinking of a mannequin or even a human dummy like Robert Linford or Tim Mosley and tossin' them into the water and trying that out. With all the junk thats in water...and the Thames was no prize even in '88....it might be promising.

Letting a paper object sit in water is fine, but its not the same as turgid,churning and agitated water in those cold weather conditions. I'll see what I can do this late Fall about that Debbie. Thanks again.

By the way, you really should send Stan Russo a p.m. and mention I requested that you contact him about those names. He's an excellent source for J.K. Stephen material.

Try JSDUKER@aol.com

Tell him How sent you.:kiss:

[Debbie McDonald]

Dear How

I have been chatting with Stan via pm recently so will drop the names.

What do you think about Harry Wilson, the owner of the Osiers? After you have read my book we must have a 'chat' about him. He was involved with Toynbee hall (as was Prince Eddy) and of course Druitt's body was found a few yards from his house. Something fishy going on I reckon.

Will send Stan the names and see what he thinks

Regards

Debbie

[John Savage]

Hi Debbie,

Regarding the names over the door, I have found a couple of possibles:

Degge Wilmot Sitwell - Capt. Royal Irish Guards b. 8th. June 1869
John Knightly Wilmot Sitwell b. 28th June 1874

They appear to be part of a long line of Sitwells and probably related to the family of Edith and Osbert Sitwell.

I can't say for certain if these are the guys you are after, just a suggestion.

Rgds
John

[Robert Linford]

Hi Debbie

Ripperologist 93 has an article by Joe Chetcuti and Maribel Reyes. Towards the end of the article there is an account of a ballooning disaster, which led to a man's body being in Lake Michigan for a month. Yet when the body was retrieved, the notes in the pockets were still legible.

[Debbie McDonald]

Hi Debbie

Ripperologist 93 has an article by Joe Chetcuti and Maribel Reyes. Towards the end of the article there is an account of a ballooning disaster, which led to a man's body being in Lake Michigan for a month. Yet when the body was retrieved, the notes in the pockets were still legible.
Oh blast, that blows that theory! Mind you I doubt if there is so much disturbance in a Lake as in a tidal river. Also train tickets (if they were similar to those I remember as a child) go quite mushy quite quickly.

Regards
Debbie

[Debbie McDonald]

Hi Debbie,

Regarding the names over the door, I have found a couple of possibles:

Degge Wilmot Sitwell - Capt. Royal Irish Guards b. 8th. June 1869
John Knightly Wilmot Sitwell b. 28th June 1874

They appear to be part of a long line of Sitwells and probably related to the family of Edith and Osbert Sitwell.

I can't say for certain if these are the guys you are after, just a suggestion.

Rgds
John

That's interesting John. Sounds feasible and also puts paid to the idea that they were all in the same year at Rugby together as there is a five year age gap. hmm

Regards
Debbie

[Robert Linford]

Hi Debbie

I can just about get my head round the idea that Druitt was murdered, either by his family or by the clique with whom he is said to have been associated. But it seems to me that once we start talking about papers disintegrating, we are drawn into positing a conspiracy - not just involving the police, but probably the doctor and coroner too. It seems unlikely to me. Plus, it's at odds with William's volunteering the info about Monty's mother, and the serious trouble at the school. If there was this huge conspiracy going on, William would have been better off just saying something like, "Yes, he became very depressed when he turned 30. His legal career was comfortable, but he realised that he was never going to reach the top of the tree. His cricketing powers were on the wane, and his teaching was becoming a daily grind. And yes, he had attempted suicide before."

[Debbie McDonald]

Dear Robert

But what if the murderer wasn't his brother but someone from the Cambrdge Apostles? I find Harry Wilson seems a bit fishy. Had connections in the East End too.

Incidentally did you read my posting regarding Druitt's mother's illness - I had the papers from the Wellcome foundation explaining exactly what her symptoms were and I cannot see that Druitt was suffering in the same way. Mind you people can cover up their anxieties - but I just don't see him leading new ventures at the Cricket club if he was contemplating suicide the following week.

So maybe a conspiracy theory is the only explanation. But how, what for and why I do not know.

[John Savage]

Hi Debbie,

From the reports we have of Monty's inquest I think we have accept that his identity was established by the cheques and railway season ticket in his pocket; therefore they cannot have disintegrated.

The Apostles were an elite group of students from Cambridge University, not noted for murderous activities, and Monty having gone to Oxford would not have qualified as a memebr of the Apostles.

Rgds
John

[Robert Linford]

Hi Debbie

He may not have been suffering symptoms, but was scared to death that one day he might. Which of course would itself be a symptom.:bowl::confused::faint:

[Debbie McDonald]

Hi Debbie,

From the reports we have of Monty's inquest I think we have accept that his identity was established by the cheques and railway season ticket in his pocket; therefore they cannot have disintegrated.

The Apostles were an elite group of students from Cambridge University, not noted for murderous activities, and Monty having gone to Oxford would not have qualified as a memebr of the Apostles.

Rgds
John

Yes but maybe they didn't disintegrate because they weren't in the water for as long as the authorities suggested they were.

Yes obviously Druitt wouldn't have been a member of the Apostles but several of them had chambers in the same area as he did and Lonsdale even had a home very close to where Druitt worked in Blackheath. Harry L Stephen (JK's brother) and Herbert Stephen were both within a stones throw from Druitt's chambers. So it is likely that they would have known each other. There weren't all that many there at that time. Druitt and JK S were studying law there at the same time.

Don't forget also that Druitt's body was found within yards from the Osiers at Chiswick Mall where Harry Wilson lived.

I know there are few actual facts but there is enough wierdness to make us ask what was going on. I doubt if Druitt was the Ripper but there is something strange about his death I am almost sure.

[Debbie McDonald]

Hi Debbie

He may not have been suffering symptoms, but was scared to death that one day he might. Which of course would itself be a symptom.:bowl::confused::faint:

Yes Robert that is a possibility. And people, especially men are good at covering their emotions so maybe that is what he did.

I would love to know the million dollar question ie why was he fired from the school. That would open so many doors (or perhaps close them!)

[Robert Linford]

Hi Debbie

That's why I mentioned the doctor and coroner, who would have had to be in on the conspiracy if the body hadn't been in the water all that time.

I agree the location is interesting.

Re Monty's dismissal, yes men are good at hiding their feelings, but if there is one thing calculated to make a chap who has a lot on his mind explode, it's a bunch of unruly children. Perhaps Monty just "lost it" in class, became hysterical, and had to be dismissed. If he started raving and/or sobbing, it would have been a fatal blow to his classroom authority in Valentine's eyes.

[How Brown]

It might have been the conflicting feeling of being successful in the court case he handled and a possible altercation or "breakdown" at the School which pushed Monty over the edge.

Those weren't the days of "three strikes,you're out". The reputation of an institution came before an individual's issues in many cases and it may have this time with Druitt.

[Debbie McDonald]

Hi Debbie

That's why I mentioned the doctor and coroner, who would have had to be in on the conspiracy if the body hadn't been in the water all that time.

I agree the location is interesting.

Re Monty's dismissal, yes men are good at hiding their feelings, but if there is one thing calculated to make a chap who has a lot on his mind explode, it's a bunch of unruly children. Perhaps Monty just "lost it" in class, became hysterical, and had to be dismissed. If he started raving and/or sobbing, it would have been a fatal blow to his classroom authority in Valentine's eyes.
Interesting. Did you know, by the way, that he mostly 'worked' in the nights. I guess that is how he fitted everything in with his law stuff. He was the only staff member not to have other accommodation in the area and staying at the chambers was not really acceptable at that time (researched!). Valentine and the other teacher both had houses of their own in the neighbourhood (checked on the census) but Druitt had nowhere. so he stayed on his own (probably had matrons etc) but the only main man at night at the premises. Have done the research and it is in my book 'The Prince, His Tutor and the Ripper' as you probably know.

Regards
Debbie

[Debbie McDonald]

It might have been the conflicting feeling of being successful in the court case he handled and a possible altercation or "breakdown" at the School which pushed Monty over the edge.

Those weren't the days of "three strikes,you're out". The reputation of an institution came before an individual's issues in many cases and it may have this time with Druitt.

Wish we knew!!!!

[Debbie McDonald]

Hi all

For anyone interested I came across notes from the hospital, Manor House, where Druitt's mother was incarcerated (they are now at the Wellcome Library). Viz:

she suffered from 'melancholy and stupor' which she had first suffered from her early thirties.

By the time of this relapse she was in her fifties. She also suffered from sleeplessness, restlessness, lack of confidence, indecision, fear of financial ruin that resulted in a reluctance to spend money, and refusal of food due to 'no esophageal passage'. She was lethargic and suffered from delusions.

So back to Druitt at the time he supposedly said he was worried about being like his mother - can this have been true when you think that only the week before his dismissal from the school he had been at a meeting of his cricket club and instigated a new plan to extend the club and its activities.

Can this be a man who was 'lethargic, indecisive, and lacking in confidence'?

Regards
Debbie

[Robert Linford]

Hi Debbie

I don't think we are obliged to assume that Monty would have displayed the full-blown symptoms. He may, however, have remembered the onset of his mother's illness which I suppose would have occurred when he was maybe 5 or 10. He may have remembered the way her behaviour started to change, and if he detected - or thought he detected - the start of a similar trend in himself, he might have become convinced that he was set to undergo a slow and very undignified decline.

I think lots of people worry about family genetics - it might be mental illness, it might be cancer or heart trouble - and feel that there is a ticking bomb inside them.

[How Brown]

Debbie:

Please don't debate whether anything you might have to offer is of value anymore...it most certainly is.

I for one never even considered the possibility that Druitt typically worked at night at Valentine's School until you mentioned it. I don't know why...but I am very glad you brought this up in any event.

May I ask you what exactly did Druitt's responsibilities entail? If he was working at night, primarily and as you stated more often than in the daytime, then he probably wasn't teaching, was he?

This is somewhat startling to me and I am not kidding. I always felt Druitt would definitely have had a teaching responsibility....but if he 'worked" at night, what would that responsibility be?

Let me add this on here in inclusion to the above:

In Phil Hutchinson & Robert Clack's great book, "The London Of Jack The Ripper,Then and Now"...there's a passage in it which mentions Druitt and his potential suspectworthiness and the probability that his whereabouts on the nights of "most of the murders" more or less eliminate him from the list of suspects in this Case. Thats on page 189.

I know the source of that determination, but is your feeling that Druitt might be eliminated from the list based in part on the same consideration that he "mostly worked at night"?

Thanks Debbie !

[Debbie McDonald]

Hi

Thought you might be interested in hearing more re Druitt at Eliot Place school. There was one other school teacher employed at the school in 1881 - his name was Mrk Mann and he was 25 - the same age as Druitt. Valentine was 39. All three academic staff had BA degrees, but as you probably know Druitt only managed to get a third class degree.

Other staff at the school were Valentine's mother, a house-keeper, a cook, three housemaids, an assistant cook and two manservants. There were 38 boarders ranging in age from 9 - 17.

An ex pupil wrote in 1905 (ie would have been at the school prior to Druitt), that 'our school marked an advance in that each boy slept in a separate compartment, and we actually had a swimming bath in the house'. So this means that the boys had their own privacy.

I imagine that Druitt did not work every night so could have been available to be the Ripper. Also means that Druitt would have had the chance of being able to access the boys at night individually.

By 1888, the other assistant schoolmaster is named, in Kelly's Directory as being Frederick Lacey - he is listed as at 57 Lee Rd (1842-1912) and Valentine had three houses - 97 Dacre Rd (1886-1891), 18 Belmont Rd (1842-1912) and 57 Lee Rd (1842-1912). All these properties were near to the school. Maybe some of the boys used them as dorms?
Regards
Debbie

[How Brown]

DEebbie:

The individuals who you mentioned ( by number ) were a number one could expect to find year round at Valentine's, correct?

I was sort of hoping you would state that Druitt worked only at night, because if that was true, it would decrease ( to me at least ) the probability that he would attempt to slip out from the school. Shucks.

I predict that someday soon something will turn up on a date where he was definitely "placeable" at Valentine's on one of the key nights in question. I thought you may have had one for us yesterday for some reason. Of course, if that night happens to be November 9th, someone invariably will mention that Kelly wasn't a definite Ripper victim. Thats where I lose it and beat 'em up,Debbie:boxing::boxing:

Thanks for sharing the previous information Debbie. Its much appreciated.:kiss:

[Adam_Douglas]

Sorry of I am coming in late to this particular conversation, but a lot of the things I have read fingering Druitt as the killer also state he was a homosexual.

As I understand there is no real proof of either statement - but would you agree that it is impossible for both statements to be true? I do not believe that it is possible that a homosexual male (or a female of any sexuality) could have killed the victims in the way in which the "JTR" murderer did.

[How Brown]

Dear Adam:

I think you might be meaning that what you have read about Druitt infers he may have been a homosexual. To my knowledge,unless Debbie McDonald or someone else has uncovered anything, no one is certain what his preferences were,although I sort of think he might have had an eye for boys...without proof of course, but just an assumption from reading about the man.

As to homosexuals killing women/heterosexuals, look no further to than to Richard Speck. He was married or involved at one time with a woman, but being married to a woman does not mean you are a heterosexual. It just means you are married to a woman. look no further than Vittoria Cremers and her husband...and...look no further than to Oscar Wilde and his wife. The argument is, is that homosexuals are not typically responsible for serial murders involving the "other " preference such as the WM ...and I agree,based on stats....

But there are exceptions.

[Adam_Douglas]

Yes, I understand that there is no definite evidence of homosexuality, but I think of the senior police speaking after the fact and with some other errors about his age made a comment that he was "sexually insane" (which in the prejudice of the day may have meant this) and there is certainly a lot of inference in what I had read that he was homosexual and the reason he lost his job so suddenly was a sexual scandal involving boys in the school.

I certainly think homosexuals might be murderers and even serial killers, but it does not seem possible that a homosexual man would murder women in crimes so obviously with a sexual motive.

[How Brown]

I certainly think homosexuals might be murderers and even serial killers, but it does not seem possible that a homosexual man would murder women in crimes so obviously with a sexual motive--- Adam

There's the rub,Adam. Speck..using a modern example..raped the 7 nurses before killing them. Thats clearly a sign of sexual motive. And if he ain't gay,no one is.

Of course, a homosexual man, as well as a heterosexual man, might have wanted to manifest power and control via murder and it just appears to be sexually based.

Between you and me, Druitt isn't much of candidate for JTR...but better than a lot of the others hoisted up there.

I do see clearly what you mean about homosexuals not being likely candidates for JTR. By and large,I agree...but its not etched in stone that a homosexual couldn't be.

[Adam_Douglas]

I dont know a lot about Richard Speck, but I suppose anything that can happen once can happen again.

I did read a book about Druitt that found he was playing cricket outside of London on the dates of at least some of the murders. It may have been possible to travel in and out within the timescale, but it is quite hard to imagibe a frenzied killer doing such (in between playing cricket the day of the murder and the next day)

Druitt was fingered as a suspect (I believe) in a note that had both his age and profession wrong.... although probably we could say of almost anyone living at the time that we cannot prove they did NOT commit the crimes, the only thing to link Druitt to them is in notes made after the fact quoting "private knowledge from the family" and rumours of "sexual insanity" - I believe that at the time it was suspected that the killer might be a homosexual as homosexuality could be explained by an unnatural hatrid of women, not a view that would be shared today.

Druitt doesnt really match any of the witness statements I have read about people seen with the victims, and would not match the pyschological profile we would associate with murders of this kind (although of course Jack the Ripper came before any of he profilers)... there is no other evidence of violent or criminal behaviour on his part (other than being sacked from his teaching job), there is a family history of depression - which explains his suicide - and while the killer undoubtably by our standards would be considered insane, intense melancholy does not seem compatible with horrific murder.

__

I think Druitt's sexuality may be something of a red herring anyway, as there is no real evidence that he was homosexual at all other than he was not married or known to have a girlfriend and the loss of his job (which could just as easily have been linked to his impending nervous breakdown)

Of course, the policeman who named Druitt must have had a reason to do so, but I have not seen any information which has ever been made available which can lead us to understand why he believed it.