The Uteri Collection: Discussion

[How Brown]

Nina mentioned this to me this morning and I thought it would provide some chatter:

In canvassing Tumbelty's career, as he traipsed across the continent and even to Britain, the thought occurred to Nina that it seemed very odd that no one else ever mentioned the legendary uteri collection in all that time in print. Certainly someone else would have seen this stash. It would certainly be worth mentioning if someone asked about Tumbelty. His ponies,his clothing,his greyhounds are frequently mentioned...but no uteri...and that something someone would have brought to the press's attention,isn't it?

Whats your view on what he did do with his alleged collection of uteri, if he didn't take them on his travels? Where they stashed? Did he begin collecting,allegedly, them later on in his life?

[admin tim]

.....it seemed very odd that no one else ever mentioned the legendary uteri collection in all that time in print. Certainly someone else would have seen this stash.

What makes you think that these were wombs with a view?

[Chris G.]

Nina mentioned this to me this morning and I thought it would provide some chatter:

In canvassing Tumbelty's career, as he traipsed across the continent and even to Britain, the thought occurred to Nina that it seemed very odd that no one else ever mentioned the legendary uteri collection in all that time in print. Certainly someone else would have seen this stash. It would certainly be worth mentioning if someone asked about Tumbelty. His ponies,his clothing,his greyhounds are frequently mentioned...but no uteri...and that something someone would have brought to the press's attention,isn't it?

Whats your view on what he did do with his alleged collection of uteri, if he didn't take them on his travels? Where they stashed? Did he begin collecting,allegedly, them later on in his life?

Hi Howard and Nina

If you recall, the collection of uteri is one of the allegations in the memoir by Colonel Charles A. Dunham aka Sandford Conover who knew Tumblety during the Civil War, having first made the Indian herb doctor's acquaintance "a few days after the battle of Bull Run." Thus it was not later in Tumblety's career but when Dr. T was in his thirties and residing in Washington, D.C., around the same time that he was selling phoney discharge papers to Union soldiers in the nation's capital.

Dunham related that while attending a dinner party with Tumblety ". . . he invited us into his office where he illustrated his lecture, so to speak. One side of this room was entirely occupied with cases, outwardly resembling wardrobes. When the doors were opened quite a museum was revealed--tiers of shelves with glass jars and cases, some round and others square, filled with all sorts of antomical (sic) specimens. The 'doctor' placed on a table a dozen or more jars containing, as he said, the matrices of every class of women. Nearly a half of one of these cases was occupied exclusively with these specimens." From "The Missing Tumblety" in Rochester Democrat and Republican, 3 December 1888 (http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/rochester_democrat_and_republican/rd881203.html)

The lack of any mention of such a collection in other articles on Tumblety is a very good point, though it's been the thought of some Ripperologists who have discussed the herb doctor that he would likely have had specimens in jars for show as part of his trade.

A subtitle of the newspaper article cited above labels Tumblety "A braggart and Charlatan" but the lawyer Charles A. Dunham was himself as much a shady figure. Carman Cumming (http://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/88snr6fq9780252028908.html), author of Devil's Game: The Civil War Intrigues of Charles A. Dunham stated, in an article that he wrote for Ripperologist, No. 63, January 2006, "The American Connection: Sandford Conover aka Charles A Dunham and Dr Francis Tumblety," that Dunham's story about Tumblety cannot be totally discarded because the fellow was cunning enough to include enough of the truth in the stories that he told to make it difficult to discern exactly what was true.

All the best

Chris

[Dan Norder]

The story of Tumblety possessing uteri in jars can be totally disregarded, as we only have one source for it, and that source is known to be both the most untrustworthy of individuals in general and also because he got facts in his alleged story about meeting Tumblety wrong. It's also telling that the story did not come out anywhere near the time it supposedly happened but only after Tumblety had been in the news as allegedly being investigated in connection with the Whitechapel murders, which were well known around the world to have included the removal of the victim's uterus on more than one occasion.

It's odd that Chris George ignores the article by Wolf Vanderlinden in Ripper Notes #23 (July 2005) which first exposed the individual who came up this story as the unreliable con man he was and pointed out why the story couldn't be trusted. Instead he tries to promote a Ripperologist article on the same topic that came out in 2006 as if it had anything new or significant to say that hadn't already been said. It's not like he was unaware of the earlier article.

[A.P. Wolf]

I just love the way that some folks here can be so absolutely certain about certain claims about Tumblety, like here with his funny little stamp collection, but are they not the very same people who then promote Tumblety as a fugitive from British justice, escaping prison by a whisker as he fled to France and then the States... with three large suitcases.
Perhaps the strange old bird kept his stamps in 'em?
I swear to god some of you boys would claim that Tullamore Dew was made in Texas if it suited your nefarious purpose.

[How Brown]

If my memory serves me correctly, as Wolf Vanderlinden stated in an old issue of Ripper Notes, Conover's whereabouts and movements in Washington are known, but not Tumbelty's...who could not be pinned down in D.C. until later in the year of 1861. There were two Bull Runs ( Civil War battles) and the first ended in late July of that year...which is when Conover claims to have met the good herb Doctor.

I prefer the opinions expressed by McGarry if I had my druthers. He mentions nothing of this alleged marriage Tumbelty is supposed to have and of course,no collection ( not even stamps,A.P...:kiss:) of any kind. He mentions the doctor's disdain for the distaff, but not this frothing at the mouth misogyny as Conover claimed.

[Dan Norder]

but are they not the very same people who then promote Tumblety as a fugitive from British justice, escaping prison by a whisker as he fled to France and then the States... with three large suitcases.

Tumblety did flee England from the charges related to homosexual conduct, and certainly as a bail jumper and not a prison escapee he had a pretty good opportunity to take his things with him as he went. The idea that the police also might not have particularly cared too much about stopping him from escaping the country as long as it meant he was no longer on their soil is also plausible, as we know from the various other incidents of similar charges through the years in which defendants were all but officially encouraged to flee.

[How Brown]

Everyone or anyone:

What's your position on this comment:

Back when the January 1889 article appeared in Ripperologist Magazine, regarding Tumbelty's interview with the New York World, SPE made the observation that Tumbelty more or less was cornered into making a statement or if my memory is correct, had no choice but to respond.

I strongly disagree with that. I believe there was nothing other than the quack's ego which compelled him to respond to the interviewer's request.

Initially not germane to the uteri question, it follows Dan's comment on Tumbelty's flight.

What say ye? Or should we start a thread on that by itself?

[Joe Chetcuti]

The first edition of Carman Cumming's Devil's Game came out in 2004. I bet that book still makes for a pretty good read even four years later.

[A.P. Wolf]

Thanks Dan, I'm glad to hear that you concur completely that the idea of Andrews in hot pursuit of Tumblety across the Atlantic is now't but bum fluff and idle speculation, complete and utter nonsense with no basis in fact whatsoever.

[Dustin Gould]

It was during an hour-long documentary on Tumblety, based on Gainey's book, that I distinctly remember one of Tumbelty's associates was interviewed by a reporter. And he did make mention of the collection. But I viewed this program ages ago. Anyone else remember it?

[How Brown]

Dust:

Lemme tell ya...no one has probably seen that documentary ( courtesy of JMenges:kiss:) more than I have. Yes, there is a scene in the latter part of that terrific documentary which has Conover on a bridge with the reporter from the NYWorld...and yes,daddio, there is a reference to them there uteri in jars in Dr.T.'s study made within that segment.

You can ask me anything Dustin...I probably know the answer:playball: