James Maitland

[How Brown]

Joe Chetcuti's two articles were pretty darned interesting regarding the views on Tumbelty ( July2008) in the Rip and the WS1888 Journal.\

I checked out the source for some of the material ( Nov. 20,1888,Inter Ocean) and it seems more likely to me that Sir Robert Anderson was the individual ( the head of "the secret service" ) was the official that Maitland was referring to when he mentioned speaking with a high ranking official of the British police.

Even though SRA wasn't the head at the time of the Tabram murder, Maitland doesn't state that he talked with the head of the s.s. at the time of the Tabram murder, rather that he merely spoke with him.

I for one also am not convinced and I hope that A.P. and Nats pardon me for this, that the reference to foreigner necessarily referred to someone who happened to be Jewish. Yes, the euphemism "foreigner" usually applied to Jews in or within the context of describing the population at large in general usages, but even if it was Sir Robert that made that statement for certain and it probably was, I still think the door is open as to whom it referred to.

Lets bring this up, if we may...if this reference is a direct quote and it says...

""This man, said he,is probably a foreigner, who has got in trouble, better imagined than described.."

To me,there's no "probably" if it referred to a Jewish suspect or person here. Jews were, without the probably, foreigners in the general usage of the term. It appears that there is some doubt as to the nationality or origin here.

Maybe its me,I don't know. How about you? Anyone see what I mean?

[Joe Chetcuti]

Thanks for reading both articles, Howard. I was hoping that Coral would send out the Journal of the Whitechapel Society in time for the 120th anniversary of the George Yard crime, and from what I hear, people in England did receive the issue in their mailbox yesterday. So it worked out fine.

I've been in contact with the widow of the great grandson of James Maitland. Her name is Mary, and she lives in Illinois. James Maitland had three children, all of them daughters. According to Mary, two of the daughters did not have any offspring. But one of Maitland's daughters did, and her name was Maude. She passed away in 1972. When she died, she left three books to her grandson in Illinois. Mary has them, and all three books concern James Maitland.

Mary also mentioned that Maude spoke very little about her father, and there is no private paperwork from James that has been passed down to his descendants.

Months ago, it was agreed amongst Adrian, Howard and I that in mid-August I'd post up the James Maitland article on the Jtrforums. I've never done something like that on this web site before, but I'll happily make an exception this time. The article contained the result of a survey question that I distributed to over 30 people last spring. I figure those folks have a right to know the result! So before the month is over, I'll have the article "Better Imagined Than Described" posted on a thread around here. Personally, I think Philip Hutchinson, Roger, and Rob House correctly answered the survey question.

As for the 19th century English meaning of the phrase "probably a foreigner"... I think our Ripperologists from Great Britain would be in the best position to answer any questions on that. It took me awhile to see the light on this one, but I now have to agree with A.P. Wolf and Nats. I think those two were correct. This was a reference to a Jew, and I view Anderson as the one who had made that statement.

[How Brown]

Joe:

Of course,I read them pardner. I am always happy to read your work...and now that I am on a mission in regard to Tumbelty ( just researching a lot more than before...), I hope you didn't think I was stirring up trouble with my mentioning of some potential issue with the terminology, "foreigner".

Bear with me,Joe...you know how I get.

1. If Anderson was indeed the gentleman who stated "probably a foreigner"...and I agree with Rajah and Phil on this one that it was probably SRA...then to me...it gives the impression that there was a bit of mystery to the origins of the person in question. Had it been a person who happened to be Jewish, I don't think that the key word, "probably" would have been uttered. I get the impression that the term, "foreigner" in this instance reflected or possibly reflected a confusion as to which nation from without the suspect hailed from...as in the United States of America or elsewhere. Had it been a Jew from England,despite Jews living there for quite some time, they would still be referred to as foreigners... but without the probably.

Do you see what I mean Joe?

[Joe Chetcuti]

I see what you're driving at, Howard. The word probably does cause the phrase to become a bit cloudy.

I've been studying that 'probably a foreigner' phrase all summer. I think when Anderson made this remark, he was just adding his own personal sentiments about the nationality of Tabram's killer rather than hinting that some evidence existed which suggested the man in question was a Jew. And it wouldn't surprise me if Anderson's personal sentiments in this matter dictated to him that when he looks at Tabram's killer, he isn't looking at a Gentile.

Actually Howard, I think the phrase that identified Tabram's killer as "probably a foreigner" tells us more about the man who made this remark than it tells us about the possible nationality of the murderer.

[How Brown]

Joe:

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you 'saw" how I meant what I said, because it made me do a double take.

Anyway...

I've been studying that 'probably a foreigner' phrase all summer. I think when Anderson made this remark, he was just adding his own personal sentiments about the nationality of Tabram's killer rather than hinting that some evidence existed which suggested the man in question was a Jew. And it wouldn't surprise me if Anderson's personal sentiments in this matter dictated to him that when he looks at Tabram's killer, he isn't looking at a Gentile.-Joltin' Joe

Hmmm...then do you think... or lean towards the idea,at least, that Anderson may have had it already established in his mind that the Whitechapel Murderer was a "foreigner",hence a Jew, from back in...lets say... mid to late August ? Do you see how your paragraph gives that impression? Not that I'm arguing for or against your comment...just fishin' around,thats all.

[Joe Chetcuti]

It's a touchy subject, but to answer your question Howard, I'd say yes. I think Anderson looked upon Tabram's killer as probably having been a Jew.

The "Better Imagined Than Described" article explained why Anderson was very likely to have been the police official who talked with Maitland in August 1888. And the English Jtrforum members would do a better job than I when explaining how the term "foreigner" was customarily spoken back in those days when describing a Jew.