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View Full Version : Five Questions With: PILGRIM


How Brown
08-25-2008, 02:26 PM
A big thanks to Pilgrim for the contribution to this section of the site...

1. Its an old chestnut but always worth a crack: if you had to pick one of the following as a probable profession for the esteemed Jack T. Ripper which would you pick and why: a) surgeon, b) knacker man, c)apprentice medico, d) non-medical, non-butcher, labourer/unemployed.

Regardless of esteem, I would say that he was at that time most probably unemployed, in some way self-employed, or of no fixed occupation. I do however find it likely that he may have picked up some minimal "anatomical knowledge" along his way.

2. In the pantheon of uncaught murderers and unsolved cases, do you feel that JtR is deserving of his place given the fact that the trail is so cold now that there is no chance of ever identifying him and that Ripperology has moved to sociology, historical pursuit etc. and is therefore no more a criminological investigation?

It is not my impression that the trail, as such, has become significantly colder than it was in mid November 1888. If it has come to be more widely perceived as such over the last couple of decades, then I would say the reason should perhaps rather be sought beyond the facts of the case. I guess it's possible that a rising interest in peripherally related historical pursuits or sociological subjects may have played some part.

3. Of all the flotsam and jetsom that has washed up over the years on the shores of Ripperology, which bit of gossip, rumour, innuendo, garbled recollection do you feel is the most intriguing and of most potential import?

I'm not quite sure if this would be an example of what you're referring to, but if I had to pick one particular bit of recollection, garbled or not, I would say -

"His watch chain had a big seal with a red stone hanging from it." -- George Hutchinson (The Times, 14 November 1888)

4. Do you consider the police to have been unfairly criticised regarding their efforts at the time and if so would you care to elaborate on what more they could have done?

Solving any murder committed by someone unknown to the victim and without a "rational motive", may be fairly heavily relying on some seemingly chance events. So, perhaps they were unfairly criticized. There could, I guess, still be one or more fair reasons for criticism. Anderson's "knowledge" that the killer would have to be a "low-class Polish Jew" may to some extent have worked to limit the awareness of other possible (types of) suspects and any related clues. And there is of course the "eternal question" of the writing on that wall in Goulston Street. Personally, I would say the most significant facts do seem to have been registered, though it might have been better if a photo had been taken.

5. If you by some quirk of fate found yourself transported to the night of the Eddowes/Stride murder but had a broken ankle and could move but slowly.....which of the two crimes would you attempt to witness assuming you could only drag you and your busted appendage to one of them?

I would surely do my best to at least interrupt the first of them. If I could not hinder both of them then I guess I would have to be a witness to the last of them.

Mr. Poster
08-25-2008, 02:59 PM
Super!

"His watch chain had a big seal with a red stone hanging from it." -- George Hutchinson (The Times, 14 November 1888)


Intriguing indeed! Just out of interest does anyone know of any organisation that would have a big seal on wtch chain? Ws it common to have seals on watch chains? Would the stone have been in the seal as part of it or dangling off the end?

I would surely do my best to at least interrupt the first of them.

Why?Why not let the clock grind on as you have no idea that killing Stride was not something that precipitated his stopping after Kelly? Apart from possibly mking all Ripperologists dissappear in puff of temporal improbability.....maybe Stride (or anyone) wasnt part of the sequence ofo killings but part of the sequence only going on as long as it did?

p

Pilgrim
08-26-2008, 04:33 PM
5. If you by some quirk of fate found yourself transported to the night of the Eddowes/Stride murder but had a broken ankle and could move but slowly.....which of the two crimes would you attempt to witness assuming you could only drag you and your busted appendage to one of them?

Pilgrim:

I would surely do my best to at least interrupt the first of them. If I could not hinder both of them then I guess I would have to be a witness to the last of them.Why not let the clock grind on as you have no idea that killing Stride was not something that precipitated his stopping after Kelly? Apart from possibly making all Ripperologists dissappear in puff of temporal improbability.....maybe Stride (or anyone) wasnt part of the sequence of killings but part of the sequence only going on as long as it did?You could be right, and I may agree. If there was an interruption in Dutfield's Yard, before or after the eventual severing of Elizabeth Stride's throat, he might have made his next attempt in Mitre Square anyway.Just out of interest does anyone know of any organisation that would have a big seal on a watch chain? Was it common to have seals on watch chains? Would the stone have been in the seal as part of it or dangling off the end?It's not a very detailed description ? "His watch chain had a big seal with a red stone hanging from it." It would perhaps be possible to interpret it as saying the seal was hanging from the watch chain, and the red stone hanging from the seal ? Still, I would say the stone probably would have been set into the metal, perhaps in principle about the same way as the stones in this brooch -

http://images.onlinegalleries.com/gfx/47662.jpg

And if it were not to have been too difficult to remember it may have been of a slightly more simple design, as the case probably would be with just one red stone. A "seal" would possibly seem more likely to be inscribed in a circle ? It's virtually impossible to know, of course, but it could perhaps have been working, or thought of, as sort of a "protective charm". Perhaps somewhat like a horse-shoe pin ?

admin tim
09-01-2008, 06:20 PM
Intriguing indeed! Just out of interest does anyone know of any organisation that would have a big seal on watch chain? Ws it common to have seals on watch chains? Would the stone have been in the seal as part of it or dangling off the end?

Good questions, Mr. P; I'll hope my response is as good.

One good resource for such things that most people do not have is the reprint of the 1897 and 1902 Sears Roebuck Catalogues. I have used these before and will do so again.

The first illustration shows organizational seals for watchchains typical of those that were available in the LVP. I presume that the Brits had access equal to that of the Yanks via mail order. According to Conan Doyle throughout the SH canon, seals on watch chains were quite common, and I have seen many Masonic devices on old pocket watch chains myself.

The second illustration shows a typical male's watch chain of the LVP, on which the seals from the first illustration could be fastened, and also a 'stone' that comes built-in.

The third illustration shows what most likely the 'red stone' would have been. Look at the 'cornelian' stone at the far left bottom. "Cornelian is a translucent orange to red variety of chalcedony. The red tints are caused by iron oxide impurities. It is most commonly made into beads, cabochons, and carvings. As Cornelian is fairly common, it is an inexpensive gem." Additional detail follows.

http://www.thaigem.com/dis_cornelian.asp

http://www.thaigem.com/images/tg/images/new_discover/dis_cornel.jpg

Comments?

http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/watch3a.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/watch1a.jpg
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac287/HowieNina/watch2a.jpg

Lyn Resthal
09-01-2008, 09:24 PM
Here are just a couple of examples that a quick eBay search for 'pocket watch seal' brought to light. There were actually quite a few results showing items similar to the one in the first link.

Personally, the words, "his watch chain had a big seal with a red stone hanging from it" suggests to me a seal of which the end part, that which is used for sealing, was of red stone -- similar perhaps to that shown in the first link -- rather than a watch chain that had a seal with a separate red stone dangling.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-9CT-GOLD-INTAGLIO-FOB-SEAL-POCKET-WATCH-KEY_W0QQitemZ320293344976QQihZ011QQcategoryZ398QQs sPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=120282677689

Or, there's this sort, which could possibly have hung from a watch chain:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Victorian-10K-Solid-Gold-Carnelian-Seal-Watch-Fob-Charm_W0QQitemZ260279937916QQihZ016QQcategoryZ5257 7QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

How Brown
09-01-2008, 09:38 PM
Timmers,Lars and Lyn:

Nina and I have the 1897 Catalogue if you need us to put up some photos...

Mike Covell
09-02-2008, 06:30 AM
5. If you by some quirk of fate found yourself transported to the night of the Eddowes/Stride murder but had a broken ankle and could move but slowly.....which of the two crimes would you attempt to witness assuming you could only drag you and your busted appendage to one of them?

I would surely do my best to at least interrupt the first of them. If I could not hinder both of them then I guess I would have to be a witness to the last of them.

"Flag an 'oss and cart down"