Modern Homosexual Killer Of Women

[How Brown]

No,I ain't talking about Tim Mosley.

I refer to ( this thread is inspired by a question a guy on Casebook had....which dislodged this knowledge I had for about 4 years now...but never mentioned) Theirry Paulin....gay as they come, died of AIDS, and confessed to killing 21 women in France a couple of decades ago. He didn't mutilate any of the victims,if I remember correctly, but he did stab them.

Look him up. He's a real sweetheart.

[Adam_Douglas]

One thing I have always wondered about is the age of all the victims (other than Kelly - or the woman killed in her room)

If the killer was a young man, all of the other victims were old enough (and looked old enoug) to be "mother figures".

I dont know if it means anything... but if the killer was a homosexual, the only thing powerful enough after a crazed and corrupted sex drive to create such brutal mutiliations could be the soured love that becomes hatrid of a man with a terribly overpowering mother (maybe one who also at one time worked as a prostitute).

[Stan Reid]

A very good film about this case called I Can't Sleep (English title)

[Stephen Leece]

Theirry Paulin is not really a helpful comparison in Tumblety's case because Paulin's homosexuality was incidental to his murders- he killed for profit, not sexual gratification out of sexual frustration.

[How Brown]

Dear Stephen:

I understand and agree with your sentiments and observations,sor...that Paulin, by virtue of no wounds found on the old women in their private parts or that they were sexually violated, would appear to be an example which is less than desired.

Yet, Herb Mullin, another serial killer, who claimed he was rejected by a girl for his self-proclaimed homosexuality,prior to his skein of 10, eviscerated a stranger on a college campus and left her insides for what he claimed, "the vultures"...similar to Chapman & Eddowes' murders.

Is there, in your study into this area, a good example which fits the criterion of a gay serial killer who killed women that we might compare more faqvorably with a Tumbelty type?

I'm not "defending" Tumbelty,Stephen, since I think he is less likely to have been the Ripper for non-sexually oriented reasons....but I was trying to point out that the concept that the sexual orientation of some spree and serial killers is often over rated. Richard Speck, while committing a spree of 7 murders back in 1966, was never thought of as a homosexual at the time since he killed young women. Yet in prison, he got a "boob job", a veritable silicone beef up and was captured on tape inside his cell snortin' yay-yo ( cocaine ) off another guy's thigh. If he wasn't gay,no one is.

Back to you.....

[Big Jon]

Yet in prison, he got a "boob job", a veritable silicone beef up


Out of curiosity, how on earth does one get a boob job while in prison?!?!

[Stephen Leece]

Well in Speck's case he had hormone injections in prison (as did Alan Turing of computer fame, who also developed breasts)- from the video footage I've seen he had them by 1988 so he had already been impriosned 22 years by that time- enough to institutionalise any man.
I don't think there's any killer that we know of that can justify Tumblety's inclusion in the list- Mullin I can remember but I'll get back to you on him- it's a while since I've looked at him, but I'm sure he is not a latter-day Tumblety either...

[How Brown]

Biggie:

Speck was a waste of space who should have been gassed after what he did in '66. Gassed after having a female executioner chop his private parts off.

In a program featuring Speck-with-boobs-in-prison....he actually responded to the question " Hey man,why'd you be kill all dem wimmen?".....with "They were in the wrong place at the wrong time.."...and laughed. Illinois prisons were pretty loosey goosey until that program appeared.

Stephen:

No,Mullin isn't really a good example,after all,is he? He was psychotic...something I overlooked. Tumbelty clearly wasn't.

Gacy,Baumeister,and a few other homosexual serial killers were married men...and Baumeister for decades before wimping out and committing suicide.

But anyway...back to you,as you may find one comparable to the quack.

[Big Jon]

Just a thought:

Has the possibility of Tumblety being bisexual ever been raised?

[How Brown]

Bigness...it probably has to some extent,but nothing close to references to his definitely ascertainable preferences for men ( called into court for buggery & maybe some other goodies.... ) and his pursuit of Hall Caine, the Manx author. Caine was married.

In addition, lets not forget that despite Tumbelty ( who comes close to a certain Hull desk jockey named D'Onston for prevarication ) claiming he was once married,there has been no proof to show that. I don't think Tumbelty was bi-sexual or married...but those,of course,are just opinions.

[R.J.Palmer]

This thread reminded me of a comment made by Martin Fido a short while back. Fido, a researcher I respect, wrote something to the effect that he found Tumilty an unlikely suspect because his sexual preferences centered on young boys and men. He suggested further that this was also somewhat true of M.J. Druitt, but found that Druitt was more ‘compatible’ with someone who might be bisexual. I apologize if I am not entirely quoting Fido accurately, but it was pretty much something along those lines. The obvious assumption underying Fido's thinking is the Ripper had to sexually 'desire' women in order to ...kill them.

To my way of thinking, this dubious assumption is based on the belief that there is some sort of direct and ‘linear’ relationship between a murderer’s “normal” sexuality and the victims he choses to abuse and murder while in a fit of homicidal rage. I see no reason why this would be the case, and, indeed, it has always struck me as very strange and highly questionable reasoning. To say homosexuals kill men, and heterosexuals kill women and then cite the cases of Gacey and Bundy as examples is to merely engage in circular and descriptive reasoning. Gacey was once married and had children, so he was, at the very least, ‘capable’ of sustaining the typical all-American heterosexual lifestyle. That he chose male youths as his objects of rape, torture, and murder does not tell me that he ‘preferred’ homosexuality, or, more to the point, could engage in a respectful, loving homosexual relationship. Indeed, he later admitted that when committing those horrible murders he created an alter ego in his mind, a fictional detective figure who hated ‘queers’ and sought to punish them. Hate, rather than desire, seemed to be a necessary component in his criminal acts. He may well have had homosexual urges--one might even argued they were submerged-- but they seemed to have been merely one element of his deeply disordered sense of self. The important point seems to be that his homosexuality was necessarily linked to violence, while he already proved that his heterosexuality could express itself in a 'normal' family setting.

When Dietz and Hazelwood interviewed their so-called ‘heterosexual sadists’ they didn’t find that these men ‘desired’ women. To the contrary, they found, instead, that they hated them with a passion. All women, to these men, were sluts, whores, etc. So I find it extremely strange that 8 out of 10 ‘Ripperologists’ assume that a man must be sexually attracted to those he choses to brutalize and victimize. The exact opposite is true; these crimes are uniformally committed by misogynists, regardless of their preferential sexuality.

Regardless, I am also highly skeptical that ‘normal’ sexuality tells us anything whatsoever about the sexuality of someone who is so obviously depraved as the Ripper. Surely we can’t really expect someone this screwed up to follow the ‘rules’ of normal sexuality?? The ‘plasticity’ in Richard Speck’s sexuality, as described by Howard, must surely just be a symptom of a greater psychological disturbance. His identity is screwed up , so it only stands to reason that his sexuality--which is part of his identity--would be similarly confused and 'liquid.'

Ergo, the cliché that men who like boys kill boys, and men who like girls kill girls is hopelessly flawed and even, in my opinion, ridiculous. Psychology isn't that simplisitic.

[How Brown]

This thread reminded me of a comment made by Martin Fido a short while back. Fido, a researcher I respect, wrote something to the effect that he found Tumbelty an unlikely suspect because his sexual preferences centered on young boys and men. He suggested further that this was also somewhat true of M.J. Druitt, but found that Druitt was more ‘compatible’ with someone who might be bisexual. I apologize if I am not entirely quoting Fido accurately, but it was pretty much something along those lines. The obvious assumption underlying Fido's thinking is the Ripper had to sexually 'desire' women in order to ...kill them. R.J.Palmer

Thanks very much,Rajah. Ever since the original debates which turned into battles elsewhere over this "issue" of sexuality,I made a note to list the various serial killers who were, by definition, homosexual, who killed females. Each time I remembered to "go check 'em out", I found more. I hold,as a Ripperologist, diminishing stock in the theory that the sexuality of the Ripper/Whitechapel Monster means or ever meant anything. There's not an lengthy list of them, but the similarities between hetero s.k.s and homosexual s.k.s and the mayhem they unleashed was close enough for me to conclude that their primary sexual bent should not prevent us to also consider a gay s.k. as being the Ripper.

One thing that might be worth repeating is that despite the statements made some time back about Tumbelty being a 'bisexual" ( I have read an online presentation by Mr. Evans supporting Tumbelty a few years ago where SPE stated that Tumbelty was a bisexual...and SPE,as many of us do,may have changed his perception of Dr.T. by this point in time )...there's absolutely no evidence other than Tumbelty's story of being married at some point in time and no marriage license to date proving he was ever married which is the basis of the perception Tumbelty was "batting both ways".

I tend to agree with YOUR perception of Tumbelty-as-Ripper, R.J....where in your perception of him being the Ripper ( if I DID believe in his candidacy ), his sexuality means nothing. S.K.s for the most part are cowards and since women are either actually or percieved as, 'weaker" in a physical sense, it makes more sense for someone, straight or gay, to take out their hate on those less capable of fighting back.