Strength and Weaknesses

[Big Jon]

Thought it may be interesting to go through all the suspects, once a week maybe and list all the strengths and weaknesses for their candiacy and discuss them a bit. I'm starting off with Druitt as his candiacy doesn't cause too many heated arguements and I'll probably do a new one each week.

I'll kick us off, but don't feel limited to listing just one of each - post as many as you like and feel free to discuss and comment on and debate what everyone says.

Strength:
Was posed as a suspect by Macnaghten in his memoranda - a man who may have had inside knowledge of the investigation, and certainly had access to the complete files.

Weaknesses:
Macnaghten joined the police after the last canonical murder, so never actively investigated the crimes.

[How Brown]

Weakness:

Playing cricket just several hours after a WM crime.
No known violence towards anyone.
Its not iron clad that a gay person could not have been the murderer,but I am of the impossible to prove as yet opinion that Druitt was not interested in women.
History of mental issues within family, but not of ones externally manifested.

[Big Jon]

Anyone else got anything?


+ Commited suicide shortly after last Ripper murder.

[String]

- No real obvious motive, I don't buy this business that he was mad, he was holding down a teaching job. He might had been depressed but that's a big leap to being a serial killer. Even then why prostitutes?

[How Brown]

String & Bigness:

I mentioned to Mr. Begg around a month ago that despite my old feelings about two of the Macnaghten guys...Aaron the K and Druitt...its funny that I now think these two have are among the only suspects I would lean towards. Its fortunate for us all that we are around at a time where the likes of Mr. Spallek and those working in the Kosminski realm are pretty active.

Some of the detraction towards Druitt appears to stem from the errors Macnaghten makes about Druitt when he refers to him.

Littlechild, in his letter to Sims, seems to have been oblivious to him ( which also might be a reason that some people think Littlechild wasn't that "in the know" as to the internal machinations of those working the WM case...which I think is somewhat of a skewered concept. People in low ranking positions at companies will often know what transpires behind corporate doors...and Littlechild was not a low ranking officer at the Yard.) and that unfortunately has diminished Druitt for some in the scheme of things.

I am at a loss on how to eliminate Druitt from the pantheon of suspects. To switch gears slightly...how would you two conduct an elimination of Druitt?

Good thread idea,Jon...as always.

[Big Jon]

I am at a loss on how to eliminate Druitt from the pantheon of suspects. To switch gears slightly...how would you two conduct an elimination of Druitt?



I don't think it will ever be possible to completly eliminate Druitt from the case, but there are factors (that form the weaknesses of his canfiacy) which may rule him out:


The cricket game shortly after a murder - though not impossible, makes it less likely
If he was a homosexual - unlikely to have murdered women, but again, unverifiable and still not impossible.
Macnaugten was wrong about his occupation, and date of death - if he was wrong about these things, doesn't it make it more likely he could be wrong about the bloke altogether?Anything anyone wants to disagree with, or add?

[How Brown]

Bigglington:

To eliminate Druitt, we need to do one thing and one thing alone:

Find documents with dates corresponding to the evenings in question which has him elsewhere than any of the sites...even one might do it. The mutual feeling we have about a homosexual Ripper,as I am sure you are aware, is not as conclusive as we "feel" it is. I found a serial killer ( Thierry Poulin) who blows the Ripper away in terms of numbers and he killed women and he was gay. Macnaghten can be excused for the several mistakes he makes in his rebuttal to the Sun...and thanked because he did mention Druitt. Druitt is with us despite the reasons we mutually harbor.

Just imagine if Cutbush ( who I mentioned three years ago or so as being possibly the most important person in this whole Case, as a personal observation...although my buddy Stan Russo plumps for Tumbelty in terms of importance as a suspected person) had not been written up by the Sun !!!! Druitt and Ostrog may have been non-entities even today. Only the fact that Druitt IS mentioned in the Macnaghten Memoranda caused researchers to inquire further into him beginning with Farson down to Mr. Spallek today.

Anyone else?

[Big Jon]

Bigglington:

To eliminate Druitt, we need to do one thing and one thing alone:

Find documents with dates corresponding to the evenings in question which has him elsewhere than any of the sites...even one might do it.


I suppose I'm very sceptical that this will ever happen.

I thought of another weakness for Druitt. According to the Blackheath historian, Stawell Heard and a previous chairman ofthe Blackheath society, Neil Rhind, Druitt's job was that of night master at George Valtentines school - he was in charge of the boys and night, so for the last 3 murders he would have been working!

Got this from Ripper Suspect: The Secret Lives of Montague Druitt by D J Leighton.

[How Brown]

Jon:

One additional factor here...its not 100% etched in stone that Druitt committed suicide. The possibility that he could have been murdered does exist...whether greatly or marginally isn't an issue. That he may have been murdered exists in some Ripper theorists minds and I can count myself in that category too.

It might be time to set up a thread for Edward Buchan...as a side note

[Gumshoe]

It might well have been murder, as Mishter Brown and others say. See what Mishter A.C. Doyle says on thish matter:

http://sherlock-holmes.classic-literature.co.uk/the-five-orange-pips/

"Between nine and ten last night Police-Constable Cook, of the H Division, on duty near Waterloo Bridge, heard a cry for help and a splash in the water. The night, however, was extremely dark and stormy, so that, in spite of the help of several passers-by, it was quite impossible to effect a rescue. The alarm, however, was given, and, by the aid of the water-police, the body was eventually recovered. It proved to be that of a young gentleman whose name, as it appears from an envelope which was found in his pocket, was John Openshaw, and whose residence is near Horsham. It is conjectured that he may have been hurrying down to catch the last train from Waterloo Station, and that in his haste and the extreme darkness he missed his path and walked over the edge of one of the small landing-places for river steamboats. The body exhibited no traces of violence, and there can be no doubt that the deceased had been the victim of an unfortunate accident, which should have the effect of calling the attention of the authorities to the condition of the riverside landing-stages."

We sat in silence for some minutes, Holmes more depressed and shaken than I had ever seen him.

"That hurts my pride, Watson," he said at last. "It is a petty feeling, no doubt, but it hurts my pride. It becomes a personal matter with me now, and, if God sends me health, I shall set my hand upon this gang. That he should come to me for help, and that I should send him away to his death--!" He sprang from his chair and paced about the room in uncontrollable agitation, with a flush upon his sallow cheeks and a nervous clasping and unclasping of his long thin hands.

"They must be cunning devils," he exclaimed at last. "How could they have decoyed him down there? The Embankment is not on the direct line to the station. The bridge, no doubt, was too crowded, even on such a night, for their purpose. Well, Watson, we shall see who will win in the long run. I am going out now!"

[Big Jon]

There is indeed that possibility. But, the question I must ask you two gents (and anyone else who wants to answer) does his murder take away from his candiacy as a suspect in your opinion, or does it not effect it at all?

[String]

The problem is that most of the suspicions about Druitt where mostly due to the theory that he killed himself because he killed the women. If he was murdered then that would blow the Druitt JTR theory right out of the water as there is not much else left.

Would Druitt if mad not kill closer to home?
Something happened that he got the sack for at the school. If he was as mad as they say would he not take revenge on the people who sacked him?

[How Brown]

Jon:

Good question.

String:

Good point.

I think that if Druitt was murdered,that unless it can be demonstrated that he was in league with others in relation to the commission of the crimes in the WM and that his theoretical murder was a result of this alliance,then...his candidacy would be nullified. Thats just my opinion, Bigness.

And of course String brings up the most reasonable argument against Druitt's candidacy...that of him murdering people from a social class that up until this moment we have no proof he ever had much ,if any dealings, with...those of the proletarian class and prostitutes in particular. Taking out the inner Druitt demons on people he has yet to be shown to have contact with is very,very puzzling.

[Big Jon]

I think that if Druitt was murdered,that unless it can be demonstrated that he was in league with others in relation to the commission of the crimes in the WM and that his theoretical murder was a result of this alliance,then...his candidacy would be nullified. Thats just my opinion, Bigness.

And of course String brings up the most reasonable argument against Druitt's candidacy...that of him murdering people from a social class that up until this moment we have no proof he ever had much ,if any dealings, with...those of the proletarian class and prostitutes in particular. Taking out the inner Druitt demons on people he has yet to be shown to have contact with is very,very puzzling.

Perhaps his murder was a complete coincedence, and he would have killed many times after Kelly if he had not happened to have been murdered.

What if in his twisted psyche he saw his homosexuality and societies lack of acceptance of this, as being a result of the women. The women who he did not find attractive and did not arouse him. And the prostitutes were the representation of these sexual creatures he could not love, and took out his anger on them.

[String]

I think in trying to link Druitt to the murders we are clutching at more and more straws. If this was a modern case Druitt would not even appear on the suspect list never mind head it.
If we look at the old chestnuts, means, motive and opportunity.
On the face of it Druitt or anyone would have the means all he/she needed was a knife but they also needed the rage and violence needed to wield the knife, Druitt never before displayed either.
Motive no real motive is offered, in fact Druitt probably being a homosexual has lessened his motive for the crimes.
The opportunity is also doubtful, sure he could have made it to the cricket match but after performing such a deed would he bother? He could have played sick. After all it wasn't going to be an alibi anyway and at that time he didn't need one, never needed one. He didn't live in the area, probably didn't know the area and would have stuck out like a sore thumb. If he was homosexual he wouldn't have known about the 'ways' of prostitutes and this would make them 'foreign' and dangerous.

For me he fails as a suspect on all three counts.

[How Brown]

Gents:

We really have to stretch things to make Druitt's candidacy work,don't we?

First, he's not a local . He's always mentioned associating with the booshwah...such as Brise. He's referred to by a toff ( Farquarshon) in the data that Andy Spallek discovered....he lives in whats basically a "boys club" at the age of 31...preferring to spend his evenings in the company of boys rather than going out ( even Tim Mosley doesn't do this...and I have the suss regarding Tim at times...:kiss:)...he's got a career which distinguishes him from the typical East End prole...good antecedents,albeit a little whacked in the head on one side of the family...just a lotta stuff which is enviable.

Thats why I think what Andy Spallek found earlier this year is very important in that Farquarshon "seems' to be the prime source for the information that got garbled when disseminated by Macnaghten.

[Big Jon]

I couldn't agree more How. No one single thing can exonerate Monty, but all of these factors make him as killer seem more and more likely.

Can anyone list any evidence for him being the killer which doesn't clutch at straws?

However, this has been a fun and informative exercise, so later tonight/tomorrow I'm gonna start another one. A "Suspect of the week" series of threads if you will!

[How Brown]

Tangible evidence: None that I see. Just my opinion.

Theoretical evidence or speculation: Farquarshon synthesized by Macnaghten.

[aspallek]

Gents:
Thats why I think what Andy Spallek found earlier this year is very important in that Farquharson "seems' to be the prime source for the information that got garbled when disseminated by Macnaghten.

Thank-you, How. I humbly agree that identifying Farquharson as the "West of England MP" is a very significant find and it was gratifying to have my search efforts rewarded with this discovery.

Farquharson was the Druitt family's MP from Dorset West. He also apparently had ties to the East End as he was preparing to stand for Parliament from Bethnal Green when his untimely death intervened. Since Farquharson was making his claims in early 1891, we can say certainly say that Scotland Yard (and thus Macnaghten) knew of Druitt in connection with the Whitechapel murders fully three years before the Macnaghten memorandum was penned and just over two years after the murders ceased.

Is there tangible evidence of Druitt's guilt? Certainly not. There never was. I don't believe anyone is making that claim. Was there good reason for this unlikely suspect to be favored by a capable administrator such as Melville Macnaghten? I am quite inclined to think so.

Just as an aside, Macnaghten's opinion is quite often dismissed on the basis of his not being a trained or experienced police officer. Remember that no one is claiming that Macnaghten solved the case by his policing abilities. Rather he was presented with the solution, or very strong clues as to the solution. As a well-educated man and capable administrator, he certainly possessed the ability to sift through information and arrive at a reasoned opinion.

[dougie]

I believe the "weaknesses" of his candidancy paradoxically is his greatest strength.....Why did Mcnaughton say /write that either Druitt,ostrog or kosminski would have been "more likely" to have committed this series of crimes than Cutbush?...Ostrog could i guess be a borderline suspect at the time because of his criminal career I guess (bearing in mind that the police werent aware of his location during that period in question)..kosminski because of his apparent insanity...but Druitt?What were his qualifications ? He obviously had some....gossip and tittle tattle? I very much doubt it......his suicide hardly seems much of a reason to include him either....no..its pretty plain that there was something far more pertinent to consider......Its pretty much like including Prince Charles as a possible perpretrator of the zodiac murders......one would ask the obvious question why is he included?How did he get on the list of suspects?
None of this makes the Druitt the murderer of course,but to my mind he is the most likeliest purely because he is the fav candidate of a very high ranking police official(mcnaughton) who obviously had access to facts ...and yes conjecture too, that we know very little or nothing about.
Now some might say ..ok well another top ranking policeman (anderson) had his fav suspect too,so what is the difference. the difference is of course Anderson was writing for publication,he also had a reputation for "gilding the lily" somewhat ,and had something to gain whereas as far as i can see macnaughton didnt.
regards

[How Brown]

Doug:

Good post...

Saying Anderson had something to gain,while Macnaghten didn't can also be turned around the other way. Anderson had since retired ( two decades plus ), was out of the game and Macnaghten's memo appeared on the heels of the Sun article while he was in office. One could argue that Macnaghten had something to gain IF...Macnaghten had reason to believe Thomas Cutbush was related to Supt. Charles Cutbush.

Actually,Anderson had more to "lose", in a sense since he wasn't dependent on the funds from the article or his book. Macnaghten,conversely, appears to have felt obligated to counter the claim.

On a side note:

"Ostrog could I guess be a borderline suspect at the time because of his criminal career I guess (bearing in mind that the police weren't aware of his location during that period in question).."

How this critter got mentioned at all is the 64 Dollar Question,Doug. Each year that passes by makes his entry within the MM3 more unusual. To me,its as if MM was possibly more concerned that Uncle Charlie and the Department weren't scandalized by the aftermath of the article.

On the last Rippercast program, in case you didn't get the privelege of hearing my latest pearl of wisdom. I said that it might be a whole different ballgame if three others instead of the MM3 were mentioned...or if 5 or 6 more had been mentioned. How "highly" would either Druitt or Kosminski have been considered in that instance ?

What if Macnaghten had mentioned three completely different people...but that the three he did mention were on the books at the time,yet overlooked for three others ? How many equally plausible candidates in the view of the police do we NOT know about?

[dougie]

How,
I take your point(s) on board,but if one of the reasons for Macnaughton s note and later statements was to protect Cutbush (which isnt beyond the bounds of possibility I guess) it still doesnt explain why Druitt was dragged into it.No connection to Whitechapel (so most people believe),no criminal record as far as we know, and no history of violence ,again as far as we know.Something plainly is amiss somewhere,Druitt must have done SOMETHING at SOME TIME to warrant inclusion as a suspect...and as far as cover ups or "protection" goes,its not beyond the realms of possibility that the Druitt family engaged in a touch of misinformation also....i.e the suicide note for one thing.....all we have is a summary of the contents ,and a brief summary at that.Is that normal?Wouldnt the complete contents of that note be required to be read out at the inquest?After all if it was a suicide note,wasnt it extremely pertinent and not a mere side issue for the proceedings?As far as im aware ,according to reports from Druitts descendants,nothing filtered down regarding the suspicions...not even a hint,not even a recollection of a police visit to the Druitt family regarding Montagues whereabouts,state of mind etc etc etc,and yet it would appear that investigations must have taken place at some time....but no maybe its a case of selective amnesia?...The only alternative is that macnaughton added druitts name to the list in a moment of madness.
Ok ..the family suspicions,again its rather odd,to say the least.One might be the black sheep of the family perhaps (as Druitt might have been....ive no way of knowing), but even so, the family may very well shunned him,thought him to be a drunken lazy feckless oaf....a theif maybe...a neer do well even.....but Jack the ripper?......unless of course there was reason to believe. Now some will say "oh yes ,well there hundreds of accusations from people accusing others of being the ripper at the time"....but those were not in the same league surely......its one thing a drunken old tart in whitechapel getting her revenge on her husband for some real or imaginery slight,by calling the cops and telling them her hubby was the miscreant..its quite another when we look at Druitts case ,and the levels to which those suspicions reached.....and of course to reach those levels ,one would think there would have been some kind of substance to those accusations,for them to be believed....if only by some .
As for the rippercast I did initially listen to a few ,but the inclusion of a certain member of the panel I found grating to say the least,so I havent bothered since......and no it wasnt you:kiss:....but perhaps that issue be best left alone .
I did post some time ago either here or on casebook a while ago an account that was given to me by a person who was at oxford in the 1920s-1930s.....(whether people believed me or not,is irrelevant,cos i couldnt care less)...but anyway the gist of it was ....that "common talk" (not my expression ,it was the expression used by this gentleman) was that jack the ripper was a well to individual from a good family who previously had been a suspect in a series of attacks (none fatal) in his home town earlier in the 80s,and who studied at oxford....no name was given(he didnt know it). pretty much bare bones i agree....ive tried to research crimes of this nature in wimbourne in that time frame,but havent been able to get very far to be honest......and of course im only assuming here that the "common talk" mentioned refferred to Druitt...if it didnt ..wellll:faint:
regards..thanks for listening

[Sam Flynn]

Druitt must have done SOMETHING at SOME TIME to warrant inclusion as a suspect...
That's not necessarily the case, Dougie. Taken at face value, Macnaghten's inclusion of Druitt in the list appears to have been based on second or third-hand hearsay that Druitt's family - NB: not the police - suspected him of being the murderer.

Macnaghten only offers Druitt, Ostrog and Kozminski as examples "he may name" as more likely than Cutbush - he doesn't state that they were police suspects at all. In fact, whilst he alludes to the possibility that the police were actively looking for Ostrog ("his whereabouts were never ascertained"), and that at least a little about Kozminski may have been known on the police files (e.g. his removal to an asylum), there is little to suggest that Macnaghten had anything other than his "private information" against Druitt at all.

When you think about it, Druitt - by reason of his professional/social status - really should have been the one about whom the police had the most information - if, that is, he were ever officially suspected. However, the fact that Macnaghten gets even the basic detail of the Druitt's profession incorrect, suggests that whatever his "private information" was, it could scarcely have come from a newspaper, still less from an "official police suspect" file.

[dougie]

Hi Sam,
Im not sure at all that it can be shown that macnaughtons suspicions were merely ,or only ,based on second hand accounts.Id say that was conjecture,not neccesarilly wrong, but rather unlikely. There must have been more to it in my view.
There remains the possibility of course that the Druitt family might have misled the police as well as to details.But that aside it seems macnaughton was convinced of druitts guilt....his later statement cant be read any other way....

As for macnaughtons "errors " regarding druitts profession....."said to be a doctor" seems an odd choice of words to me....is he really saying something else other than druitt was a doctor? posed as a doctor maybe? it seems reasonable to suspect that might well have been what he meant.
regards

[Sam Flynn]

But that aside it seems macnaughton was convinced of druitts guilt....A fair point, Dougie - although other authors (and their readers!) have been convinced by pure conjecture too.
As for macnaughtons "errors " regarding druitts profession... is he really saying something else other than druitt was a doctor? posed as a doctor maybe? it seems reasonable to suspect that might well have been what he meant.This rather suggests that his source wasn't sure of Druitt's profession either - which again is congruent with the impression that Macnaghten's theory was derived from hearsay, rather than the official police files.

[dougie]

A fair point, Dougie - although other authors (and their readers!) have been convinced by pure conjecture too.This rather suggests that his source wasn't sure of Druitt's profession either - which again is congruent with the impression that Macnaghten's theory was derived from hearsay, rather than the official police files.
Hi Sam,
Im not sure "said to be a doctor" would mean Macnaughton wasnt sure of Druitts profession,though as you quite rightly say ,it could be read that way."Said to be a doctor" could be meant in a derogatory fashion too,as in "armchair referee" or "armchair detective" etc,but whatever the meaning of that phrase was in macnaughtons mind,I doubt whether anyone can deny that its certainly an odd choice of words.
As for conjecture,well we are all "guilty" of that I guess.But is it really likely that Mcnaughton would have been convinced of druitts guilt on the basis of second hand "tittle tattle"?Again his belief that the proof of Druitts guilt at one time lay under the waters of the Thames....What exactly does one make of that?
There are other phrases Macnaughton uses /used that to me anyhow hint that the killers identity was known."nobody ever saw the ripper unless...." springs to mind.Now not wishing to labour the point,but given the testimonies of lawende etc regarding a person (s) who MIGHT have been the culprit,would you agree that unless the identity of the murderer was known (at a later date albeit)it appears to be a silly statement to make .One might be able to put forward an argument that Macnaughton was in the habit of making "silly statements"..if he was ,then that would explain much......is there any evidence in macnaughtons private or professional life to suggest this?I dont know.Maybe by looking at Macnaughtons history ,a view might be garnered as to whether or not he was a man prone to making rash judgements....or not.
kind regards

[Sam Flynn]

"Said to be a doctor" could be meant in a derogatory fashion too,as in "armchair referee" or "armchair detective" etc,but whatever the meaning of that phrase was in macnaughtons mind,I doubt whether anyone can deny that its certainly an odd choice of words.It's perhaps not all that odd, Dougie, given that the most usual reading of a phrase like "Said to be a doctor" would be, "I've been told he was a doctor", or even "It's rumoured that he was a doctor".

The derogatory form, as you touch upon, is "So-called" - but Macnaghten doesn't use that. He uses "Said to be", which invariably indicates that the person using it isn't 100% sure of his facts. Indeed, the phrase is a stock device of hearsay, rumour, or legend.

For example: "Jane is said to be having an affair with her boss"; "Solomon was said to be the wisest of kings"; "The Home Secretary is said to be fuming at the latest crime figures".

If one thing can be stated with reasonable certainty here, it's that wherever Macnaghten got his info from, it wasn't from a police file. It's inconceivable that a basic fact such as "Druitt was a school-teacher" would have been missed in any official notes Macnaghten could have had at his disposal, in deference to something as ill-researched as "We hear tell that he was a doctor".

[How Brown]

Doug & Sammy:

Nice series of posts here and thanks for discussing this area.

Let me throw this highly speculative idea out here...its sort of one of those ideas that results from others steering in a certain direction as you two have been....

Since Macnaghten made these errors in regard to Druitt...and that MM may have been, if not definitely, going on his recollections alone of what others had told him prior to his ascension to his position without concomitant paperwork to peruse.....is it not possible that he gave everyone the wrong name of a man in regard to Ostrog?

I know this sounds like a silly question to some....but the second element of the memoranda which baffles me the most is that he does not seem to have heard of the previous identification of the Jew at Seaside Home or wherever the hell they "identified" him......"they" not necessarily meaning Anderson and/or Swanson.....and MM and SRA were close.

Certainly, there were "better" suspects...suspects with at least violations such as assault and battery from which to choose.

Mull that idea over Doug and Sam...and while we get back to this discussion on Druitt....maybe I will put a thread up on the possibility that IF MM was not reading transcripts, he may have mentioned the wrong name in regard to Ostrog.

Back to Druitt.........

[Sam Flynn]

It's possible, How - it's also possible that Macnaghten deliberately gave the names of three red herrings in order to keep the press happy.

I know of at least one "more likely" candidate whom he could have mentioned, namely WH Bury, and there may have been many more. On the face of it, the crime for which Bury was executed was far more "ripperesque" than the non-specific (or even non-existent) charge-sheets Macnaghten advances in respect of the "Canonical Three".

[How Brown]

" - it's also possible that Macnaghten deliberately gave the names of three red herrings in order to keep the press happy..."

Thats a sapient conclusion as well,Sammy.

[How Brown]

As for the rippercast I did initially listen to a few ,but the inclusion of a certain member of the panel I found grating to say the least,so I havent bothered since......and no it wasnt you:kiss:....but perhaps that issue be best left alone .-Dougie

Wow...thats a first. Thanks !
********************************



Macnaghten only offers Druitt, Ostrog and Kozminski as examples "he may name" as more likely than Cutbush - he doesn't state that they were police suspects at all. In fact, whilst he alludes to the possibility that the police were actively looking for Ostrog ("his whereabouts were never ascertained"), and that at least a little about Kozminski may have been known on the police files (e.g. his removal to an asylum), there is little to suggest that Macnaghten had anything other than his "private information" against Druitt at all.--Sam

There's no evidence that Druitt was considered suspicious until after he drowned. If the police had been that suspicious prior to the discovery of his body,I think that by now someone directly or peripherally associated with Valentine's school would have heard the handed down rumor ( at least ) of someone affiliated with the police inquiring about him there. The police knew he worked there....and yet 120 years later, no one has heard of a rumor or fact based event where the police went to Valentine's school to inquire about him. If I am in error,please correct me.

And following up Sam's comment about Macnaghten using only family-based information, which would include Farquarshon...I agree.

[How Brown]

And furthermore, the information Macnaghten provided,in my view, is as Sam mentioned....hearsay, family oriented or friend oriented, and inspired at the spur of the moment. Just an opinion....YET:

Its good that Andrew Spallek is around in our time since his extraordinary approach to Druitt was to go to the school itself ( a lot of $$$$ on the part of Mr. Spallek) and find out all the little details he has about him. Maybe his ongoing work will lead into new areas.

[dougie]

Was it Sims OR Griffiths who wrote something after the fashion of "The suspects were narrowed down to 3....then one , the police while looking for this suspect alive,instead found him dead"?.........Information passed down orally from Macnaughton in private?.....perhaps.
How about Macnaughtons claim that he destroyed evidence regarding Druitt? Its either true or a bare faced blatant lie.....that statement cant be anything in between.
And of course these 3 suspects werent necessarilly merely Macnaughtons suspects....Kosminskis inclusion plainly proves that..in part at least.Who is to say that Druitt was NOT a police suspect at the time?No police record exists regarding Druitt,but then neither does any file exist on Kosminski either.Yet people base their pleminary conclusions on Andersons "polish jew" utterings and Swansons marginalia (which I believe may be questionable anyway).
Abberlines statement regarding a report sent to the Home office regarding Druitts death,why was that report needed?It shows Druitt was "known" about in the relevant time frame...unless of course that report was sent years later...either way it shows there was an "interest" in Druitt however fleeting ,in other peoples minds as well as Macnaughtons.Who sent that report?Would it have been likely to have been Abberline,or someone considerabley higher up the ladder?If so,why?Whether or not Abberline believed there was "anything in it" is largely irrelevant,The facrt that he knew of it is.
I cant share Sams conclusions regarding the phrases "said to be " and "so called".....both phrases could be translated as meaning the same in my opinion.
The "three red herrings to the press" argument,well one ,Kosminski at least wasnt a "red herring" was he?And macnaughtons memo wasnt a press release either ,as far as Im aware anyhow.W.h. bury was indeed ,as Sam says a far more likely candidate, as his career suggests.....which makes Druitts inclusion (on the basis of what we know) even the more inexplicable,and Burys exclusion possibly more so.Unless of course there was more to it,which of course is the main thrust of the issue.
How,
Did you have an idea who Ostrog might have been mistaken for?
As regards Macnaughtons non mention of the Seaside home identification issue,maybe he didnt think it was relevant .Even today that "identification" is a grey area...might even be a latter day distortion of a series of events that might not have taken place in the manner they have been desctribed.
regards

[How Brown]

How,
Did you have an idea who Ostrog might have been mistaken for?
As regards Macnaughtons non mention of the Seaside home identification issue,maybe he didnt think it was relevant .Even today that "identification" is a grey area...might even be a latter day distortion of a series of events that might not have taken place in the manner they have been desctribed.
regards-Doug

Doug...not at the moment,but its worth keeping details of Ostrog's past alive since its possible that Macnaghten could have confused two men with each other. Likely? I don't know and think the possiblity is slim.

Its also curious that Macnaghten didn't mention the Hove I.D. since he was a friend of Anderson's.

Lets analogize this for a second.

You and I work together at a business firm. We are on good terms. We even attend functions together. Since we work at the same firm and are part of a "team", more or less like most firms are today, we have the ability should we wish to use it to discuss internal scuttlebutt pertinent to the firm.

Lets say that there are some internal issues which arise in the firm that are in relation to a major move within the firm we work for.

How could we NOT mention or bring up the issue of the "major move" to each other? What are the odds,therefore,that Macnaghten did NOT hear of the Seaside identification....assuming that it did happen as we have been led to believe ???

Back to you.

[dougie]

Howard,
Bit of a problem I admit, hmmm....Maybe Macnaughton didnt feel it was WORTH mentioning?But again we are assuming the identification DID take place as described. Perhaps it didnt,and if it didnt then...............I cant really find a convincing answer I admit,but then there is nothing new in that:).
regards

[How Brown]

Doug:

Its concievable ( to me at least ) that MM did not "have to" mention the Seaside identification if it violated some internal police edict against discussing the identification publicly at that point in time. A sort of "LVP gag order" if you will....if this report from February of 1894 was ever meant for those outside the police force's eyes.

To me,if MM did not know of the Hove identification and/or was prevented from speaking openly about it, to elaborate to the extent that he did and for whom are the paramount questions.